Rule of Three - (2012 February 28th)

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Rule-of-Three (2012 February 28th)
by Rodney Thompson

You've got questions—we've got answers! Here's how it works—each week, our Community Manager will be scouring all available sources to find whatever questions you're asking. We'll pick three of them for R&D to answer.

Talk about this news here.

 
Rule of 3 Haiku time!

Shugenja class build?
Wasn't different enough
Now it's two monk builds.

15-minute days?
Not in Next, with self-healing
and design modules!

Homemade rule modules?
Why should we do all the work?
(Our pay is lousy.)
I really hope they mean it when they say houserule and homebrew support is a main design goal.  The most major flaw in the move from the old CB to the new one is how much worse the new one is at dealing with houserules... not that the old one was very good at it.

IMO, they should take a look at the CBLoader and learn a lesson.  Though it's become a "get updates to your old CB for free" thing, at least in most people's eyes, it was created (back before the online CB was ever announced) to allow users to add in their own homebrewed content.  If they had offered a real, robust, modding tool the CBLoader would never have been created, and all the headaches it's caused them.

I think there's room for WotC to operate a kind of online trading hub for said mods, kind of like how Bethesda now controls the flow of their mods to Skyrim via Steam.  The same system can be used to share custom maps, monsters, game tokens, character portraits etc for use with the VTT and such.
Nice work, wrecan.

As far as #2 goes, if the designers really want to discourage abusing Extended Rests, have such things incur an XP loss if done before a DM-specified number of Milestones are hit. Maybe each Milestone hit would reduce the XP loss by 1/3 or 1/4. *shrug*

So yeah, you really can't stop players from spiking the doors to reset their resources - not all your adventures can or should have time limits - but any amount of XP loss tends to make players weigh their options.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
The 15 minute day problem is easily solvable - don't give us abilities that regenerate every time you extended rest.  Instead, translate daily powers so that you need to go through X encounters before you can use them again. 

As an example, let's say we want fireball to be used every 3 combats on average.  Put a slider on the edge of the power card for fireball that goes from 0 to 6.  At the end of every encounter you'd slide the counter up by one (to a maximum of 6).  Every time the power is used the slider goes down by 3.  With electronic character management and a few physical tools for those that don't like electronics, this would be easy to implement.
D&D & Boardgames If I have everything I need to run great games for many years without repeating stuff, why do I need to buy anything right now?
Daily resources are what cause 15 min work days.

By making vancian core they are making 15 min work days core.
so, the way to solve the 15 minute workday includes using mechanics from 4th edition--one of the things that 4e haters go nuts over (healing surges).  I really hope they get into this design process and then realize "Oh yeah, this is why we designed 4e the way we did in the first place.  Tell me again why we're changing all of this?"
> Instead, translate daily powers so that you need to go through X encounters
> before you can use them again.

That's what they SHOULD do. It's the way many 4E (and in some cases, even 3E) games actually get played, including some of the 4E devs' own games.

Unfortunately, using a narrative unit ('per day') when the situation demands a mechanical one ('after every fourth encounter') would mean going against the true feel of D&D (or whatever the current line is), so it isn't going to happen.
Well, 4e didn't have 15 miniutes work day problem(I think?)

This is a concern for 5e.


How to fix this IMO

Change how daily resources work in the opposite way.


For example

We have action point in 4e, we can borrow that formula.

Change action point to momentum point(or whatever you want to call)

When you use daily power, you have to spend momentum point to use it.
Momentum point always reset to 1 if you rest, and you gain 1 momentum point when you reach mile stone.

This way, when you rest, you reset your daily resurces to minimum instead of maximum.

Sure ,your HP and surge are restore but your daily power are limited.
They gain some and lose some, so they have to thinks more before decide to call it a day.
Well, 4e didn't have 15 miniutes work day problem(I think?)

This is a concern for 5e.


How to fix this IMO

Change how daily resources work in the opposite way.


For example

We have action point in 4e, we can borrow that formula.

Change action point to momentum point(or whatever you want to call)

When you use daily power, you have to spend momentum point to use it.
Momentum point always reset to 1 if you rest, and you gain 1 momentum point when you reach mile stone.

This way, when you rest, you reset your daily resurces to minimum instead of maximum.

Sure ,your HP and surge are restore but your daily power are limited.
They gain some and lose some, so they have to thinks more before decide to call it a day.



4e added alot of ways to discourage it, but blowing alll your dailies in 1 combat then resting still sort of worked. That said, dailies often didn't have enough "bang" to really bother though. It also doesn't help that charging now is better than using a daily unless your a controller/leader. 
Well, 4e didn't have 15 miniutes work day problem(I think?)



Not in my experience, but I supposed it may at lower levels with some groups.  I have had DMs tell us its time for the party to rest after we were ready to keep going after 4 encounters.

So many classes have good dailies that really only let you use one per encounter.  Half the fun of playing a class like a warden or cleric is dropping a different encounter long daily each encounter at higher levels.

I don't think we have ever had a PC run out surges before at least 3 or 4 encounters.
Nice work, wrecan.

As far as #2 goes, if the designers really want to discourage abusing Extended Rests, have such things incur an XP loss if done before a DM-specified number of Milestones are hit. Maybe each Milestone hit would reduce the XP loss by 1/3 or 1/4. *shrug*

So yeah, you really can't stop players from spiking the doors to reset their resources - not all your adventures can or should have time limits - but any amount of XP loss tends to make players weigh their options.



No, they need to make it hard to dump daily resources super fast. If the wizard has to channel for 3 rounds to pull off a fireball (while still plinking away with a move action magic missile each round), it makes it so if you only have one fight, the daily resource classes dont just unload their big guns every round.

I'd hazard a guess that many people dont even bother with exp anymore.  
Nice work, wrecan.

As far as #2 goes, if the designers really want to discourage abusing Extended Rests, have such things incur an XP loss if done before a DM-specified number of Milestones are hit. Maybe each Milestone hit would reduce the XP loss by 1/3 or 1/4. *shrug*

So yeah, you really can't stop players from spiking the doors to reset their resources - not all your adventures can or should have time limits - but any amount of XP loss tends to make players weigh their options.



No, they need to make it hard to dump daily resources super fast. If the wizard has to channel for 3 rounds to pull off a fireball (while still plinking away with a move action magic missile each round), it makes it so if you only have one fight, the daily resource classes dont just unload their big guns every round.

I'd hazard a guess that many people dont even bother with exp anymore.  



I <3 XP.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
I'd hazard a guess that many people dont even bother with exp anymore.  


That would be me, and everyone in the two offline groups I'm involved with.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
Nice work, wrecan.

As far as #2 goes, if the designers really want to discourage abusing Extended Rests, have such things incur an XP loss if done before a DM-specified number of Milestones are hit. Maybe each Milestone hit would reduce the XP loss by 1/3 or 1/4. *shrug*

So yeah, you really can't stop players from spiking the doors to reset their resources - not all your adventures can or should have time limits - but any amount of XP loss tends to make players weigh their options.



How about a bonus to XP based on the number of previously completed milestones? So completing the same 5 encounters is more xp if it's in one day than if it's in 5?

As an example of how it could be done in 4e, give a bonus to the XP awarded by each monster as if it was 1 level higher than it really is for each milestone reached prior to the encounter. So the LFR standard 4-encounter day is 25% higher XP in the second half, a longer dungeoncrawl slugfest with say 10 encounters would be approx:
100%, 100%, 125%, 125%, 150%, 150%, 175%, 175%, 200%, 200%.
If the party broke it in half with an extended rest they only get:
100%, 100%, 125%, 125%, 150%, 100%, 100%, 125%, 125%, 150%.
That's a sizeable chunk of potential XP they lost out on.
IF the last fight is a big giant boss battle, the party might opt for an extended rest first to go in fresh and maximize their chances, or go gungho and get twice as much XP!  

Of course this presupposes a willingness to do math and use XP. 
Nice work, wrecan.

As far as #2 goes, if the designers really want to discourage abusing Extended Rests, have such things incur an XP loss if done before a DM-specified number of Milestones are hit. Maybe each Milestone hit would reduce the XP loss by 1/3 or 1/4. *shrug*

So yeah, you really can't stop players from spiking the doors to reset their resources - not all your adventures can or should have time limits - but any amount of XP loss tends to make players weigh their options.



How about a bonus to XP based on the number of previously completed milestones? So completing the same 5 encounters is more xp if it's in one day than if it's in 5?

As an example of how it could be done in 4e, give a bonus to the XP awarded by each monster as if it was 1 level higher than it really is for each milestone reached prior to the encounter. So the LFR standard 4-encounter day is 25% higher XP in the second half, a longer dungeoncrawl slugfest with say 10 encounters would be approx:
100%, 100%, 125%, 125%, 150%, 150%, 175%, 175%, 200%, 200%.
If the party broke it in half with an extended rest they only get:
100%, 100%, 125%, 125%, 150%, 100%, 100%, 125%, 125%, 150%.
That's a sizeable chunk of potential XP they lost out on.
IF the last fight is a big giant boss battle, the party might opt for an extended rest first to go in fresh and maximize their chances, or go gungho and get twice as much XP!  

Of course this presupposes a willingness to do math and use XP. 



Why do people not enjoy using XP?

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
Why do people not enjoy using XP?


For me, it comes down to a couple of things, but the main one is pacing.

I still use the xp budget to set up encounters, but I don't actually award xp.  The reason for this is because I may not want to do an entire level's worth of encounters for my player's to gain a level.  Maybe there's been a lot of roleplaying involved, and I believe the skill challenge system as it's laid out is generally more trouble than it's worth.

I also tend to make difficult encounters by default, and I think they're worth more than their xp budget says they're worth.  Sure, I could just give them extra xp for it, but if I do that, why bother with the xp system at all?

Why do people not enjoy using XP?


For me, it comes down to a couple of things, but the main one is pacing.

I still use the xp budget to set up encounters, but I don't actually award xp.  The reason for this is because I may not want to do an entire level's worth of encounters for my player's to gain a level.  Maybe there's been a lot of roleplaying involved, and I believe the skill challenge system as it's laid out is generally more trouble than it's worth.

I also tend to make difficult encounters by default, and I think they're worth more than their xp budget says they're worth.  Sure, I could just give them extra xp for it, but if I do that, why bother with the xp system at all?



I think the thing for me is, I'd never give XP for roleplaying.  I might give other in game rewards, but not XP, because it rewards one type of player over another.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
Why do people not enjoy using XP?


For me, it comes down to a couple of things, but the main one is pacing.

I still use the xp budget to set up encounters, but I don't actually award xp.  The reason for this is because I may not want to do an entire level's worth of encounters for my player's to gain a level.  Maybe there's been a lot of roleplaying involved, and I believe the skill challenge system as it's laid out is generally more trouble than it's worth.

I also tend to make difficult encounters by default, and I think they're worth more than their xp budget says they're worth.  Sure, I could just give them extra xp for it, but if I do that, why bother with the xp system at all?



I think the thing for me is, I'd never give XP for roleplaying.  I might give other in game rewards, but not XP, because it rewards one type of player over another.




I don't think he means just one player getting the RP exp. If the party does something to meaningfully complete an objective, then it deserves excp.


That said, I've also ditched it cause its annoying math...which now that I think of it, I could just have maptool handle anyway.  But regardless, my party has generally been very supportive of ditching exp, they level up at the end of adventure arc, or the half-way point if its sufficiently sized.  It accomplishes the same goal.


Howerver, while I dont use it it, I still like it being a fundamental element of the game. Its required for the game to actually function as a game. It provides a guideline for progression. I may not use EXP or the encounter exp (mostly because I can feel it out most the time with less calculating), but that doesn't its always the way to go.  
I made the suggestion about XP because at the time I couldn't think of any other penalty/bonus that 'simulationists' may accept. XP is purely a gamist construct that has no real-world representation, and burning XP for various actions is already built into the older games. (Of course, now that I've written that, I'm sure a greybeard will come along and say XP perfectly simulates the power of Fung Shui or something. Cry)

Have your special attacks refresh after a certain number of milestones instead of after an Extended Rest works fine to me, but that doesn't jive with the old school daily shtick. Having daily powers be more difficult to pull off in a combat (or just limit one per combat) would work really well, but that also seems too big a departure for the 'D&D Throwback' edition.

Granting bonus XP for hitting a certain number of milestones seems like a decent idea, but I could see risk-averse players gladly ignoring it. I'm all for giving out carrots, but this particular problem might just require a shillelagh.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
Why do people not enjoy using XP?

I stopped using XP in 3e (immediately after the release of 3.5). My reason was simple -- it imposes a micromanagement process that circumvents story-driven advancement.

I spent nearly an hour after each session calculating the experience points the party received. And sometimes, at the end of an adventure or campaign arc, someone in the party would be "just shy" of the level that everyone else had achieved. This became even more the case when XP was spent to make magic items for the party. So what would I do? Of course I would give the extra XP needed to bring the party member in line with the rest of the party.

So it occured to me that it would be easier to just ditch the XP and level the party when the story needed a higher level party (usually between adventures).

I have never looked back.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
Why do people not enjoy using XP?

I stopped using XP in 3e (immediately after the release of 3.5). My reason was simple -- it imposes a micromanagement process that circumvents story-driven advancement.

I spent nearly an hour after each session calculating the experience points the party received. And sometimes, at the end of an adventure or campaign arc, someone in the party would be "just shy" of the level that everyone else had achieved. This became even more the case when XP was spent to make magic items for the party. So what would I do? Of course I would give the extra XP needed to bring the party member in line with the rest of the party.

So it occured to me that it would be easier to just ditch the XP and level the party when the story needed a higher level party (usually between adventures).

I have never looked back.



QFT

Not trying to shoot down your ideas, just giving another side for discussion:
 
Have your special attacks refresh after a certain number of milestones instead of after an Extended Rest works fine to me, but that doesn't jive with the old school daily shtick. Having daily powers be more difficult to pull off in a combat (or just limit one per combat) would work really well, but that also seems too big a departure for the 'D&D Throwback' edition.


special attacks refreshing based on milestones or whatever can work with certain concepts that don't really fit D&D baseline assumptions, such as that you are drawing the power from your slain enemies somehow. But yeah, D&D has a certain basic assumption that if you have sufficient downtime you will reach your peak effectiveness (aside from temporary boosts from consumables). That works pretty well in the RPGA. 4e picks 4-6 hrs as the required downtime, for 3.5 is was probably closer to 24-48 (enough time for the cleric to get a full load of spells, spend them healing everything that ailed you, and then reload for the next adventure). In most cases there isn't much practical difference, but there can be.

The big drawback with 1 daily per encounter (aside from questions of what counts: Wrath of the Gods, for example, is a daily utility.. would that be a different count from daily attacks? Even though it almost certainly adds more to DPR than Brute Strike, or even a lot of better daily attacks?) is that it takes away one of the core advantages that daily powers bring. Dailies bring two big advantages to the game:
1) Your character plays a little different from one encounter to another, adding to variety.
2) Your character can play at a higher level of effectiveness when needed, rather than being at the same baseline level all the time.

That second aspect means you can have easier fights made harder by the pressure to hold back your big guns while harder fights are made easier by the fact you bust out your big guns. It brings your chances of winning back toward the mean, while still giving you a visceral clue that a fight was easy/hard - you can judge it by the daily resources expended.

If you imagine a slayer, for example, they go into an easy fight and the charge/MBA an enemy until it dies, then moves on to the next, throwing on Power Strike for a little extra damage early. Maybe they switch up their stances? When faced with an easy fight, they find it easy. When faced with a hard fight, they have no way to kick things up a notch so they approach it the same as if it was an easy fight, and their chances of failing go up.
If the rest of the party was likewise daililess somehow (imagine some kind of essentialized leader to go with a knight, slayer, and hunter), then the party as a whole has no way to kick it up a notch so the range of encounters that are neither cakewalks nor TPKs in the making is much narrower.     
 
Granting bonus XP for hitting a certain number of milestones seems like a decent idea, but I could see risk-averse players gladly ignoring it. I'm all for giving out carrots, but this particular problem might just require a shillelagh.



Actually, if you subscribe to some of the theories bandied about in the RPGA at time, bonus XP could be seen as a punishment. :P If you are getting more XP without commensurately more GP (or equivalent) then you are falling behind the wealth curve, making you weaker for your level. Also, if you're enjoying the current level band, it may be pushing you out of it uncomfortably fast, and since there is a max level you may just slam into it sooner. 

For a particular home campaign, you could maybe deal with it by, say, having a game-time calendar that indicates when the encounter levels click up. If there's no downtime demanded by your story per se, (travel time, etc) then it could be +1 level every 2 or 3 gamedays. 

Generally the easiest though is simply to make story arcs with time pressure. You could take an extra extended rest, but then the NPC you were fighting to save is killed before you get there, etc. 
Why do people not enjoy using XP?

I stopped using XP in 3e (immediately after the release of 3.5). My reason was simple -- it imposes a micromanagement process that circumvents story-driven advancement.

I spent nearly an hour after each session calculating the experience points the party received. And sometimes, at the end of an adventure or campaign arc, someone in the party would be "just shy" of the level that everyone else had achieved. This became even more the case when XP was spent to make magic items for the party. So what would I do? Of course I would give the extra XP needed to bring the party member in line with the rest of the party.

So it occured to me that it would be easier to just ditch the XP and level the party when the story needed a higher level party (usually between adventures).

I have never looked back.



I think the reason I don't have such problems with XP might be because I never played any iteration where it was a resource to spend.  Also, for any of the random battles or planned battles I have, I've written out what the split would be for XP.  So it's all in my notes. ;)  And since the XP is not on an "I killed that guy" basis, but a team one, I don't have to worry about one person being 5 points below level-up unless they all are.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
I think the reason I don't have such problems with XP might be because I never played any iteration where it was a resource to spend.

This would definitely have shielded you from the experience.
Also, for any of the random battles or planned battles I have, I've written out what the split would be for XP.  So it's all in my notes. ;)

Which means you are spending the time at the front end instead of the backend. It is still time spent bookkeeping.
And since the XP is not on an "I killed that guy" basis, but a team one, I don't have to worry about one person being 5 points below level-up unless they all are.

Which still leaves you with the final problem -- the adventure(s) [published and homebrew] I have planned for my players either provide them with too much or too little experience points for the next story arc they are associated with, forcing me to either omit or upgrade and entire adventure or artificially augment or withhold experience points.

I'm not saying everyone should ditch experience points as a means of reward (although I am saying that I think they should). But experience points as a reward are so far outside the story-telling nature of my approach to D&D that their use as a reward is detrimental to my enjoyment of the game and, consequently, to the enjoyment of my players.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
I think the reason I don't have such problems with XP might be because I never played any iteration where it was a resource to spend.

This would definitely have shielded you from the experience.
Also, for any of the random battles or planned battles I have, I've written out what the split would be for XP.  So it's all in my notes. ;)

Which means you are spending the time at the front end instead of the backend. It is still time spent bookkeeping.
And since the XP is not on an "I killed that guy" basis, but a team one, I don't have to worry about one person being 5 points below level-up unless they all are.

Which still leaves you with the final problem -- the adventure(s) [published and homebrew] I have planned for my players either provide them with too much or too little experience points for the next story arc they are associated with, forcing me to either omit or upgrade and entire adventure or artificially augment or withhold experience points.

I'm not saying everyone should ditch experience points as a means of reward (although I am saying that I think they should). But experience points as a reward are so far outside the story-telling nature of my approach to D&D that their use as a reward is detrimental to my enjoyment of the game and, consequently, to the enjoyment of my players.



WHile I honestly think my characters would throw a fit if they didn't get XP. ;)
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
While I honestly think my characters would throw a fit if they didn't get XP.

I'm more interested in what the players would do.

I've met XP-dependent folks (and had more than a few at my table over the years). They come around. Especially when they discover that they occasionally level up faster than XP would have permitted.

Disclaimer: I am not attempting to convince Kalnaur that he is wrong. I am merely trying to convince him that I am right.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
While I honestly think my characters would throw a fit if they didn't get XP.

I'm more interested in what the players would do.

I've met XP-dependent folks (and had more than a few at my table over the years). They come around. Especially when they discover that they occasionally level up faster than XP would have permitted.

Disclaimer: I am not attempting to convince Kalnaur that he is wrong. I am merely trying to convince him that I am right.



I mean players, of course.

And I'm not worried about leveling up faster.  I have, to the exact measure, figured out exactly where the characters will be if they fight all the story pertinent battles, and where they will be if they fight subquest battles as well.  I have a tight rein on how, when and where they level up, and XP lets me do that. 
Though I am glad it works for you, I am an XP kind of guy.  Blame it on Final Fantasy. ;)
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
I have a tight rein on how, when and where they level up, and XP lets me do that.

I have a tighter rein on it. They level up whenever (and only when) I say they do. Not a single XP calculation to perform.

Although I find no redeeming value in character advancement via XP, I do use it for the budget-approach to creating level-appropriate (and intentionally-level-deviant) encounters. But I don't fault anyone who chooses to continue the micromanagement of XP awards.

I suspect that others have grown weary of this related-but-only-barely sidetrack. I find the subject interesting, and I find Kalnaur to be a good-spirited opposite-opinion-holder. I wish more folks with whom I disagreed were as consistently mannered in sharing disagreement.

Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
I find it an interesting topic, too Smile

I use XP because the players I DM for expect and like them, and because (in 4E) I find it no extra effort at all to use them. Like you, I use the XP budgets, and I use a spreadsheet to plan encounters that helps me fit monsters to the budget. It spits out a handy, formatted sheet for recording monster hit points, conditions, figure identities and initiatives when the encounter is built - and on that form is the XP per party member (as well as space for aides memoires, etc.).

I can understand the drive away from XP in 3.x, but in 4E I find it no effort at all. It helps keep me to the pacing I want for the campaign as a whole (if I wanted slower I would multiply the xp at each level at the campaign start - and if I want faster for a specific break point I throw in quest awards).

But, as they say, each to their own.
======= Balesir

And I'm not worried about leveling up faster.  I have, to the exact measure, figured out exactly where the characters will be if they fight all the story pertinent battles, and where they will be if they fight subquest battles as well.  I have a tight rein on how, when and where they level up, and XP lets me do that. 
Though I am glad it works for you, I am an XP kind of guy.  Blame it on Final Fantasy. ;)



I have a tighter rein on it. They level up whenever (and only when) I say they do. Not a single XP calculation to perform.

Although I find no redeeming value in character advancement via XP, I do use it for the budget-approach to creating level-appropriate (and intentionally-level-deviant) encounters. But I don't fault anyone who chooses to continue the micromanagement of XP awards.

I suspect that others have grown weary of this related-but-only-barely sidetrack. I find the subject interesting, and I find Kalnaur to be a good-spirited opposite-opinion-holder. I wish more folks with whom I disagreed were as consistently mannered in sharing disagreement.




Back when I was running a home game, I used the level XP budget as a master XP budget for building up the encounters for the level, matched expected combats to that budget, and then gave the PCs a level when they overcame all of the obstacles and achieved the objectives. If the players manage to find ways to bypass encounters while achieving their goals, congrats! Still level, but the enemies are still alive (and don't count toward budgetting, should they catch up to the PCs later. SO an enemy out to get you might be worth killing now on your terms, but an enemy that's just -there- you might as well bypass if you can). If the players manage to stir up a hornets nest and make completing their objectives more difficult, they still level upon completing the objectives, even if they went through more combat than should have been called for, but they've changed the world-state, for good or ill. For example, going around and killing town guards, even if they are level appropriate encounters, when it isn't plot-relevant won't let you advance faster. But it will make you a wanted criminal. And possibly leave the town in question vulnerable to attack. 

So I do the same calculations (maybe fudging a bit for quest XP as I deam appropriate) but then twist how I use it to encourage accomplishing goals (possibly by non-combat methods) and not encourage murdering NPCs. 
    The article uses a different definition of the 15-minute workday than I am used to, or concerned about. 
     The party trying for advantage by taking extra extended rests can be dealt with pretty easily by the DM.  ["Your innocent buddy Joe will be hung at dawn.  You can take an extended rest and be fresh when you attend his funeral, or you can keep on trucking and maybe find the evidence that will clear him.", or "Every minute you rest the spies with the vital secrets are getting further away and will soon reach Sir Evil Guy who will do horrible things if he gets that information..." or... ]  Now there are adventures where its not easy to put in a deadline, but there are plenty of ways you can properly make the combat tougher and/or less rewarding when the party tries to take an extra extended rest.  The monsters get time to rest and recruit, move the treasure to safer places, or use the treasure against the party or ...  I really don't see a problem that the the game designers need to worry about.
    Now the 15 minute workday I am used to is fight-take short rest-move to next fight-fight-take short rest- and then move on to the boss fight.  I don't really see a problem here either, but it can be too formulistic.  Some ways to allow several extended rests in a day, or only one in a week or more, would at least cut back the feeling this is all artificial.
 
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