Better than Scion of Sacrifice? Elf High Mage thread

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Recently, the Scion of Sacrifice PP was used to destroy the world - but it could be stopped, or even killed, by a determined DM using normal RAW. I'm trying to get around that.

Wizard|Psion/Dreamwalker/Elf High Mage
MC Bard
Powers: Time Stop, Haste, Dig, Disintegrate, Psychic Leech, Manifest Dream Form, Force Shard, some damaging powers

Elf High Mage lets you use your encounter/daily powers without limit...but you lose hp at the end of your turn. That means you have at least one full turn with no restrictions on power usage though.

Start out in a nice quiet room somewhere, far away from any dangers. Use a combination of Time Stop and Haste to give yourself infinite actions that can be used however you like. Now use an augmented power (Force Shard works fine), and follow up with Manifest Dream Form.

Attack your Dream Form with Psychic Leech, repeatedly. It never takes damage because it's immune to your attacks, and each time you gain one power point. Now you also have infinite PPs.

Now send your Dream Form out to kill things. If it runs into an obstacle (say, a door) use Dig or Disintegrate to blast a hole through. Wander the world destroying whatever you like.

Your Dream Form is unlikely to ever be attacked, because it's a conjuration so it doesn't trigger anything that reponds to "creatures"...this includes any traps or hazards, and any powers. It will only trigger something if that effect specifically triggers on conjurations. If this happens, you just use Manifest Dream Form again, and start over.

If you find that your conjuration is being consistently destroyed somehow, just go around that area. Finish killing the other 99.999% of the world. No need to get greedy.

Note that this build is not in any way item-specific, and you personally will never end up in the slightest bit of danger.

Issues? Countermeasures? Obviously the DM is able to invent an effect that would stop/kill you, but I'm wondering more along the lines of established effects.

(Props to Alraune for alerting me to the EHM + Time Stop + Haste combo)
I'd call bag of rats on repeatedly attacking your dreamform with psychic leech.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
I dunno. This isn't a competition (although I notice you phrased your thread as such Wink) so I hope you don't consider this from bias, but I'm not so sure about psychic leech either. You can still justify attacking yourself because you are, in doing so, a realistic threat, and are doing actual damage to yourself in exchange for a benefit. Attacking a figment of your imagination that is completely immune to damage and deals no harm to you is a bit different.

Still, I don't think that's actually required for the build.
Bag of Rats applies equally to both builds. You can't hit yourself or an ally or anything you can cheese around and trigger stuff... it's specifically designed to stop stuff like hitting yourself in the face to trigger a Renewing Smite.

Yes, it hurts; no you can't heal your party by damaging yourself. Even if you kill yourself, you still don't count as a threat to yourself in Dnd terms. If you _can't_ kill yourself, you _really_ don't count as a threat to yourself ;)

Does it matter that much, though? Doesn't stop the infinite action setup. So at least you can do a round of total craziness while the world is time stopped. 
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Bag of Rats applies equally to both builds. You can't hit yourself or an ally or anything you can cheese around and trigger stuff... it's specifically designed to stop stuff like hitting yourself in the face to trigger a Renewing Smite.



Bag of Rats states that the target must be a meaningful threat.  You're clearly a meaningful threat to yourself, as evidenced by the fact that you're attacking yourself with your own powers.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Sorry, that does not work. You don't get XP for dropping or routing yourself. The rule specifically blocks hitting yourself or allies (or random forest creatures, barmaids, etc) in order to trigger your powers.

You can't self-define yourself as a threat.

Especially not when you _aren't_

P.S. Oops, failed my sarcasm meter. Point to mand12 ;) 
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
It's intended to be a joke...
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Oh, I agree. I think this build is actually better for not needing to use Bag of Rats at all, if you so chose. It's a straight up infinite attack that you can keep restarting as long as you have PP. It helps if you're immune to death, but that's a much easier and realistic use for a Legendary General to read a newspaper next to you in your lair while your dream form destroys the world. Plus there's no reason your dream form can't just use Psychic Leech on everything out there to keep respawning.

Dreamwalker Elf High Mage + Legendary General = End of the world

No loop to stop, no destiny staff to disarm, no death's brink armor to disenchant, not even thick walls or restraining will stop this combo. As far as I can tell, it works. You're vulnerable to harm, which is the big drawback of this build, but you have infinite actions to kill anything that might get in your way or be a threat, so it's technically a lot safer than just single roaming Oppenheimer.

EDIT: If you really want to mess with people, get some great resist cold, remove the need to eat, breath or sleep and find a way to get into low earth orbit. Then you can rain down death and destruction from a small capsule madly spinning around the planet. You can send your dream form in arcs so that it could come from anywhere, just dropping from the heavens like the fist of an angry god. Even if they do find a way to trace the signal or teleport to your location, they're now in space.

EDIT: Well, a life charm would help. Or a steady supply of healing potions. Other than that, though, this is item independent, and as far as I can tell completely rules-legit. You're using the help of an ally to ignore the significant drawbacks of your own capstone feature, that's it. Even powers like Dispel Magic that destroy conjurations only forces him to take another one of his million actions and spawn a new one who now knows what area to avoid. Then you drop rocks on them from space.

EDIT: Your dream form specifically states it can be attacked, and any damage will kill it. So readied actions, auto-damaging auras or deathsplosions will force you to restart. Still, even if each dream form lasted just long enough to fling a single attack against an enemy, you still succeed.

EDIT: Or use True Dream Form. That will give it a bit of an HP buffer, and you can summon as many of them as you want. An entire army of dream form soldiers falling from the heavens like deadly rain.
This isn't a competition



You're the one who made a competition of it, with your claim that your build could "murder every creature in existence" and your self-aggrandizing presentation and attitude. If you're going to post that way, don't be surprised when people take you up on the challenge.

Whoah. I was joking. I harbor no ill will towards TWTN and think this build is awesome (and, frankly, more effective than mine). I'm sorry if my offhand comment came off as more aggressive than it was intended.

EDIT: Can't tell if you were joking or not...
It's not Bag of Rats, because regaining the power point is an Effect line. Bag of Rats is defined on RC 108:
When a power has an effect that occurs upon hitting, missing, or otherwise affecting a target, the effect takes place only if the target in question is a meaningful threat.

The Effect line doesn't care at all whatsoever about how you affect the target; it's triggered just by using the power in the first place. Likewise, the Martyr Loop build isn't BoR on its attack loop, because Scion of Sacrifice is triggered by you taking damage; it's not triggered at all by any special effect of the power you use. Martyr Loop might run into BoR on some of its other aspects though, I didn't look closely for that in its latest incarnation.

Also, even if you want to call BoR, it's not a big deal. Send the Dream Form out and use Psychic Leech constantly on whatever you find, as much as possible.
EDIT: If you really want to mess with people, get some great resist cold, remove the need to eat, breath or sleep and find a way to get into low earth orbit. Then you can rain down death and destruction from a small capsule madly spinning around the planet. You can send your dream form in arcs so that it could come from anywhere, just dropping from the heavens like the fist of an angry god. Even if they do find a way to trace the signal or teleport to your location, they're now in space.

You can also set up a bunch of rituals in your location first, like Forbiddance. As an Elf High Mage, rituals are kinda your thing anyway. But it doesn't matter, because there's no way for you to be detected within the span of your infinitely long 6 second turn.
EDIT: Your dream form specifically states it can be attacked, and any damage will kill it. So readied actions, auto-damaging auras or deathsplosions will force you to restart. Still, even if each dream form lasted just long enough to fling a single attack against an enemy, you still succeed.

It can be attacked, but it doesn't trigger anything triggered by "creatures." This is clearly RAW from the fact that conjurations aren't creatures, but it's also established RAI from the PHB2 FAQ, which states that Spirit Companions can never provoke OAs (even though they can be attacked) because they are not creatures and OAs are triggered by creatures.

This distinction doesn't matter too much in normal combat, because the conjuration can be targeted like a creature, but almost any triggered action won't apply to it, and most auras are gonna have similar rules. If you do find an aura that can harm the conjuration, either avoid that area or attack from farther away.
EDIT: Or use True Dream Form. That will give it a bit of an HP buffer, and you can summon as many of them as you want. An entire army of dream form soldiers falling from the heavens like deadly rain.

I looked into that at first. Problem is that summons can only take a move action 1/round. Any tricks like repeated sliding via Freezing Burst will likely kill the summoned creature. So...summons aren't the ideal way to go. Also, they lose all the awesome immunities that conjurations naturally get from not being creatures.
Also, even if you want to call BoR, it's not a big deal. Send the Dream Form out and use Psychic Leech constantly on whatever you find, as much as possible.

My thoughts exactly :D Avoid the BoR issue entirely.

You can also set up a bunch of rituals in your location first, like Forbiddance. As an Elf High Mage, rituals are kinda your thing anyway. But it doesn't matter, because there's no way for you to be detected within the span of your infinitely long 6 second turn.

That's true, if you're only looking to do it exactly once you don't even have to have some means of avoiding death. Destroy all living things in six seconds, carve your face on the moon, shave every dwarf, replace everyone's weapons with nerf equivalents, do everything you could ever want to do with a time stopped universe, then explode at the end of that turn.

I looked into that at first. Problem is that summons can only take a move action 1/round. Any tricks like repeated sliding via Freezing Burst will likely kill the summoned creature. So...summons aren't the ideal way to go. Also, they lose all the awesome immunities that conjurations naturally get from not being creatures.

Ah, I had forgotten about the move limit. You're right, Dream Form is the way to go.

Honestly, this is shaping up to be the best universe-destroyer yet. I like it a lot, well done :D

Thanks MG!


Does anyone know of a power in the vein of Manifest Dream Form that would allow you use Wizard utility powers from the conjuration's square? Preferably something that I already have access to as a Wizard|Psion/Bard, but I could move stuff around...

I found Shaped Consciousness to work on all Psion powers, and a number of things that work on all attack powers, but nothing that lets me use Dig, except for Manifest Dream Form.
Can you see through the conjuration? If so, maybe you could fit in one of the effects that grant range sight?

Thanks MG!


Does anyone know of a power in the vein of Manifest Dream Form that would allow you use Wizard utility powers from the conjuration's square? Preferably something that I already have access to as a Wizard|Psion/Bard, but I could move stuff around...

I found Shaped Consciousness to work on all Psion powers, and a number of things that work on all attack powers, but nothing that lets me use Dig, except for Manifest Dream Form.



Watery Double from HotEC maybe?
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Can you see through the conjuration? If so, maybe you could fit in one of the effects that grant range sight?

Yes, I can see through it. Might look into that. Sadly, I'm running short on utility powers...the level 10, 16, and 22 are Dig, Haste, and Time Stop respectively, all of which are pretty necessary.

On the other hand, if I can get around needing Manifest Dream Form, then my PP opens up.
Watery Double from HotEC maybe?

Wizard attack powers only.
Can you see through the conjuration? If so, maybe you could fit in one of the effects that grant range sight?

Yes, I can see through it. Might look into that. Sadly, I'm running short on utility powers...the level 10, 16, and 22 are Dig, Haste, and Time Stop respectively, all of which are pretty necessary.

On the other hand, if I can get around needing Manifest Dream Form, then my PP opens up.
Watery Double from HotEC maybe?

Wizard attack powers only.



Isn't there an item that lets you cast through other people? Maybe that'd work.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Here's the joke: Threads like this.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
You would have to follow your dream form around to maintain line of effect to it (and while it may be almost invulnerable, you are not - not including legendary general etc).
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Why would you need LoE to it?
It disappears if you end your turn out of LoE, but as long as it's not the end of your turn yet you/it can go anywhere.

A bigger LoE constraint is that you have to have LoE in order to attack it.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
To attack what? The Dream Form? That's fine, that's never really necessary. I only attack it when it's first conjured to build up some PPs so I can conjure it again indefinitely (if it somehow gets destroyed).

Also, attacks are made as if you were in the Dream Form's square, so I don't see why I wouldn't have LoE to it if I wanted it.
I've got a guide for attacking around corners.

Dream forms is probably the best for this, but the shaman has 2 with his spirit.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

From the RC 120-1, 316: "Commanding the Creature: The summoned creature has no actions of its own; the summoner spends actions to command it mentally. The summoner can do so only if he or she has line of effect to the creature. When commanding the creature, the summoner shares its knowledge but not its senses. " (emphasis mine)
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Level 20 True Dream Form is a summoned creature. The level 11 paragon path feature Manifest Dream Form is a conjuration, and that is what he would be using.

EDIT: Saw your note in the handbook of the broken about the Phoenix Ring. Very nice. Saves you the trouble of needing an ally Legendary General, and you'll have plenty of time to find/create more rings if you want to do it repeatedly in the same day - not that you'd need to.

Thanks MG!


Does anyone know of a power in the vein of Manifest Dream Form that would allow you use Wizard utility powers from the conjuration's square? Preferably something that I already have access to as a Wizard|Psion/Bard, but I could move stuff around...

I found Shaped Consciousness to work on all Psion powers, and a number of things that work on all attack powers, but nothing that lets me use Dig, except for Manifest Dream Form.


Phrenic Master will let you do any ranged/area powers (including utilites) through your SC, and like the Dream Form is also a conjuration, so you get all of those benefits too. Don't know if Dig is going to be worth giving up the other benefits of Dreamwalker though.

Why do you want Dig so badly?
Attacking objects is at DM's discretion, which you don't want to rely on. If you're trying to get through doors, walls, or other obstructions, you have no options to get through unless you have a power that specifically allows you to attack and damage objects.

Phrenic Master will work much as Dream Form will, since it can go as far as you want before the end of your turn when it vanishes. However, it doesn't grant you line of sight from your spirit companion. Keen Eagle does, however, and is in Mellored's guide for scry-and-die tactics. Would that work? I'm not familiar enough with Spirit Companions to know.
I've got a guide for attacking around corners. Dream forms is probably the best for this, but the shaman has 2 with his spirit.

Thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for. You can add Watery Double from HotEC to that list.

Phrenic Master will work much as Dream Form will, since it can go as far as you want before the end of your turn when it vanishes. However, it doesn't grant you line of sight from your spirit companion. Keen Eagle does, however, and is in Mellored's guide for scry-and-die tactics. Would that work? I'm not familiar enough with Spirit Companions to know.

Keen Eagle doesn't let you use utilities.

Phrenic Master could be made to work when paired with Roaming Mind, Roving Spirit. But my goal here is actually to open up the paragon path.

Are there any summoning powers that let you use a power from a different square? Simulacrum comes to mind, but it's pretty restricted on what powers you can use... again, specifically looking for one that lets you use wizard utilities.
Elven High Mage + rituals ...


I think it should be possible for this guy to
1) ... find out about all rituals
2) ... locate all rituals
3a) ... learn all rituals in book form
3b) ... idk what ritual scrolls would do differently here
3c) ... because a ritual exists, it has to be in either book or scroll form
4) ... learn those semi-fluff box special rituals that EHMs can do , and that "other" build can't

So then the trick is to be able to perform rituals
while keeping the loop going (if possible).

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

Elven High Mage + rituals ...


I think it should be possible for this guy to
1) ... find out about all rituals
2) ... locate all rituals
3a) ... learn all rituals in book form
3b) ... idk what ritual scrolls would do differently here
3c) ... because a ritual exists, it has to be in either book or scroll form
4) ... learn those semi-fluff box special rituals that EHMs can do , and that "other" build can't

So then the trick is to be able to perform rituals
while keeping the loop going (if possible).



Most rituals can't be preformed in a round on their own, so there'd need to be a way around that. 

I'm kind of necroing this, but it was just linked in the Q&A thread so I'm assuming someone is still keeping an eye on it...

I found Shaped Consciousness to work on all Psion powers, and a number of things that work on all attack powers, but nothing that lets me use Dig, except for Manifest Dream Form.

Why do you need dig? You could just grab a psion power that doesn't target Will or deal psychic damage and use it through the shaped conciousness. Objects can be attacked and destroyed by RAW (DMG pg. 65), so why can't you just do that instead of using a utility?
Targeting objects is up to the DM's discretion. Most DMs don't rule in your favor when your goal is destroying the world. So it's best to avoid giving the choice.

And really, if you're attacking the ground itself trying to destroy it, I think the DM is pretty justified in saying it wouldn't work.
Well, the entire build can (and probably should) be shut down do to DM fiat if it's ever brought to an actually play table.

As for the attacking the world bit. I didn't think of that. So you can't use a Shaped Conciousness to destroy the planet.