How do you want HP and healing to work?

I'm hoping to write up a super-post detailing different HP+healing systems, and the pros and cons of each system.


But in order to actually do so, I need to get your input on what the possibilities are, and what you see as the pros and cons of each.


I'll be using the terms “long-term” and “encounter” resources, as I feel daily resources can generally be changed into weekly, monthly, or even (if you feel the need) yearly resources.



What type of resource could HP be




  1. A purely long-term resource. Impossible to restore/heal except through long-term resting. (like AD&D without clerics)




  2. A primarily long-term resource. Can be restored, but the ability to restore it is very limited; requiring significant long-term resources. (like AD&D)




  3. A primarily short-term resource. Can and will be restored, but restoration costs some amount of long-term resource, which will eventually run out. (like 4e, or 3e without CLW wands)




  4. A purely short-term resource. Any damage that doesn't kill you is irrelevant once the encounter is over, as you can heal it all up without using any significant long-term resource. (Gamma World, or 3e with CLW wands)





With options 2 and 3, there's another question:


What form does the long-term limit take?


A) The limit is on the amount of healing that the healer can do. For example, a limited number of spellslots which can be used for healing spells. (This is the pre-4e approach).


B) The limit is on the amount that the individual can be healed: either they expend a resource when healed (Healing Surges in 4e; people on here have suggested Heroic Surges instead, which would be usable for more things) or they take some form of more lasting damage (ie Wounds).


C) A+B. Some healing comes from the resources of the healer, while other healing comes from the resources of the healed (ie. 4E, with surge-less healing such as Cure Light Wounds; or a wound system with some spells that heal wounds).


D) A or B. All healing is limited by both the healer and the recipient of the healing.



Other options


Split HP: Rather than a single pool of HP; you have two separate pools. (Example: SWSE with Vitality Points and Wound Points) Each pool obeys its own set of rules.


Temporary damage. Half the damage you take in any given encounter is automatically restored at the end.

Plot Cards - When you plan for A, B and C and your players choose 7.

I'd like to see healing surges stick around in the new edition. From what I have read from Enworld there are 2 10 minute rests, 1 half day rest and something else. Not liking what I am seeing with that idea. 
I like some kind of short-term combat reserve (like 4E HP) with long term HP as well.

So you'd have a pool of stamina or resolve or whatever that gets depleted as you're attacked.

You can 2nd wind, spending an HP to regroup and shore up your resolve.

The cleric and warlord, etc, can easily help keep your resolve up, but your actual HP/surges take extended healing (week+) to recover.

Some spells like cure light wounds might restore 1HP OR give 1HP of resolve.
Hello,

I like opion 3 with D.

I play 3e, however individuals can use the healing skill after combat to restore HP in addition to clerical healing.

The DC is based upon the amount of overall damage a character took. The better success the healer has the more dice they roll to restore HPs.

The result is that everyone who has taken a healing skill tries to  restore everyone esle who is damaged. Any damage that is too bad to heal with 'first aid' is healed with clerical magic if it is deemed neccessary to continue.

This has the advantage that for at least minor damage clerics do not have to expend their rescources and anyone with a healing skill can help out.

Either 3 or 4, leaning more towards 4.  I like the encounter-based paradigm where you have all your resources going into every battle.
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3.B.a or 4. 

I.E. 4th ed's HS mechanic, or just healing after each battle.
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quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
2 or 3, A or D

I'm partial to 2A most of all, I think, in principle.

My problem with 1 is that, compared to 2/3 (which are quite similar) it leads to loads of unnecessary downtime.  I'd take it, though.

My problem with 4 is that I really rather dislike the "encounter" paragdim, as it requires building in discreet encounters by default.  This works just fine if your run classic dungeon crawls, where you open the door,  defeat what's in the room, search it, then go onto the next room.  I mostly don't: Races against the clock, running battles, oe a melee joined by new participants along its length are all more common for me than several "bite sized" encounters.  I'd like to avoid 4 if at all possible therefore.

The difference between 2 and 3 might be one that changes on level.  As players level up, I could see healing becoming more common and accessable at lower cost, allowing players to take more punishment, even relative, before needing to back off.  So really, I vote for both.

Now, on the A/D divide.

I like A, but it has one glaring problem:  It leaves "tough" characters showing their toughness through an initial better reserve of HP.  however, if healing is static, independant of its target, then that reserve matters far less than simply "having just enough to not die before you get healed".  So, I'd sort of like healing to scale based on the target's hp, so that a spell that heals roughly 10% of the squishy Wizard's HP total... heals roughly 10% of the made-of-iron Fighter's HP total.  Which, I suppose, as an addendum to A, results in D.

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2. A primarily long-term resource. Can be restored, but the ability to restore it is very limited; requiring significant long-term resources. (like AD&D)

3. A primarily short-term resource. Can and will be restored, but restoration costs some amount of long-term resource, which will eventually run out. (like 4e, or 3e without CLW wands)



One of these. Ideally, #2, with healing surges being the only change, but I would want there to be fewer of them. Also, I would want PCs and monsters to have about half their current hps and the damage progression to remain the same (fights would take 2-3 rounds on average).


With options 2 and 3, there's another question:

What form does the long-term limit take?


B) The limit is on the amount that the individual can be healed: either they expend a resource when healed (Healing Surges in 4e; people on here have suggested Heroic Surges instead, which would be usable for more things) or they take some form of more lasting damage (ie Wounds).



This one. I'd like no daily limits on character abilities, so the limits would be on the surge end.
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I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

I think they should dump healing surges (extra bookkeeping that slows game and creates another limit that forces parties to take extended rest sooner rather than later) and make healing spells depend solely on the caster.    Potions should heal hit points and not cause the PC who uses one to spend any resource.  

I also think they should make one mechanic that works for 2nd wind and rest.   If 2nd wind restores 1/4 hp...they should decide how long an after combat rest should be to restore 1/4 hp.    For example, make each 5 min rest restore 1/4 hp.  If the group is not in danger, and they are not in a rush, allow them to rest for 10 min to restore another 1/4.   This could build more tension into the game because the DM can control how long, if any time, between combats can be taken.  If the group is interrupted after 7 minutes...well they only recovered 1/4.  

I also think they should allow PCs to use a healing skill in battle to restore minimal hit points (like 2+Con bonus).  This will add another option to combat that may save a PC from going down, or help a PC get back up.  This would be like bandaging a wound.

As for spell limits, I think there should be a per encounter limit to what a spell caster can heal.  I'm ok with a Healing Word type spell twice per encounter, but again, I think it should restore hit points based on the skill of the spell caster not the attributes or abilities of the recipient.



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2. A primarily long-term resource. Can be restored, but the ability to restore it is very limited; requiring significant long-term resources. (like AD&D)

3. A primarily short-term resource. Can and will be restored, but restoration costs some amount of long-term resource, which will eventually run out. (like 4e, or 3e without CLW wands)



One of these. Ideally, #2, with healing surges being the only change, but I would want there to be fewer of them. Also, I would want PCs and monsters to have about half their current hps and the damage progression to remain the same (fights would take 2-3 rounds on average).


With options 2 and 3, there's another question:

What form does the long-term limit take?


B) The limit is on the amount that the individual can be healed: either they expend a resource when healed (Healing Surges in 4e; people on here have suggested Heroic Surges instead, which would be usable for more things) or they take some form of more lasting damage (ie Wounds).



This one. I'd like no daily limits on character abilities, so the limits would be on the surge end.



So basically, you'd like there to be a hard mode in the system?  Provided they provide an easy mode as well, I'm game. Pun totally intended.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
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58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
3 or 4. For gameplay purposes I think it works better if the entire party is fully healed after almost every fight. Otherwise you can end up in a situation where one player is, for example, unconcious but the party is not in a position to rest which means that player is forced to sit out the entire next combat or more, possibly even losing out on an entire game session (unless they play NPCs or something). This exact scenario just happened this week, for example, in a 3e Dragonlance game I'm in where one of the player characters went unconcious and, because we're in a low level Dragonlance setting with no healing magic, the player is basically going to be SOL next session since another fight is about to start. So I'd much rather have everybody fully recover after nearly every fight then have a system where natural healing is so extremely slow as to be pretty much worthless.


Also I never like flat die amounts for healing (eg Cure Light Wounds being 1d8). I greatly prefer healing that is scaled to the maximum health of the character. Why in the world should it take twice as many healing spells to heal a high hit point fighter, for instance, than a low hit point wizard? You would think that everyone would heal roughly the same proportion of health from the same healing spell regardless of their class, or if anything you'd think healthier people like fighters would heal FASTER from magic than slower! 

So I would definitely prefer healing to be scaled with the maximum hit points of the character being healed. Healing surges work that way, for example, healing 25% of maximum health, but even without healing surges I'd be happy with any healing system that is tied to percentages of max health instead of flat dice rolls.

I'm hoping to write up a super-post detailing different HP+healing systems, and the pros and cons of each system.


But in order to actually do so, I need to get your input on what the possibilities are, and what you see as the pros and cons of each.

Hps have worked quite well from day 1 as a general idea of your health and ability to fight.  HPs were never about wounds or losing limbs, but once they were gone you were dead (older editions) or on death's door or unconscious.

I'd love a system where divine magic and a warlord's inspirations worked slightly differently.  The warlord could use his morale-boosts as encounter powers, say, while the cleric's more potent healing was daily, aka, Vancian. 

This dovetails with stamina (hps as the work now) and Wound points (like in Star Wars), where clerical magic can heal the wounds, but a warlord can not.     


Regardless, 5E needs to keep the following ideas:
1) HPs recover quickly, either at the end of the day or similar mechanic
2) People can all self-heal in a limited way (the Second Wind of 4E)    

2C.

I do think healing surges have a place, but somehow it shouldn't be tied to hit points.  Maybe stamina or something that equates to the powers being used. 
I'd like to see healing surges stick around in the new edition. From what I have read from Enworld there are 2 10 minute rests, 1 half day rest and something else. Not liking what I am seeing with that idea. 


I feel almost exactly the same way.  
2C.

I do think healing surges have a place, but somehow it shouldn't be tied to hit points.  Maybe stamina or something that equates to the powers being used. 



I think the term heroic reserves is being tossed around, the idea being they do more than just fuel and limit the value of inspiration so they should sound like something you tap in to or can draw from to achieve effects... not just healing.
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2C.

I do think healing surges have a place, but somehow it shouldn't be tied to hit points.  Maybe stamina or something that equates to the powers being used. 



I think the term heroic reserves is being tossed around, the idea being they do more than just fuel and limit the value of inspiration so they should sound like something you tap in to or can draw from to achieve effects... not just healing.



They sound a lot like healing surges to me. After all, 4e healing surges can not only be used for healing but there are a bunch of powers and consumable items that let you spend healing surges for other effects. So if heroic reserves do something similar to healing surges in that they are "fuel" that can be spent to either heal to or do other things, I'm perfectly fine with that. Smile
  After all, 4e healing surges can not only be used for healing but there are a bunch of powers and consumable items that let you spend healing surges for other effects.  



Yes they do but does the term "healing surges" sound as versatile as we know they can be?
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The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
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Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I'm the guy that always volunteered to pick my class last and thus played cleric or Druid most of the time. Contrary to some, I enjoyed the healer role (past tense, because 4e really frustrates me in this regard). So I have strong views on this topic.

3A

I like having a healer as a staple of the adventuring party.That requires that healing be available on a "right now" basis, but still dependant on a given character actually expending some resources on it. As the healer, it drives me right up the wall if my primary focus (healing) doesn't work for no apparent reason. Given that healing surges aren't exactly a visible resource (or one that really makes sense in the context of someone in the world thinking about it), you have the odd possible situation where my 100% fresh and faithful cleric of a God of healing walks into a torture chamber in the depths of the dungeon (combat ensues, the party is victorious), tries to heal a prisoner (captured PC), and gets told "it doesn't work." He's been beaten and healed too many times today for my powers to work? Really people? 

3.5 hit a bit of a sweet spot in this regard with PHB2. The Dragon Shaman was designed as the non-caster alternative to the cleric. Boring to play, but outstanding as a cohort. The key ability was a 30ft aura that granted fast healing 1, up to 1/2 the character's max hp. So it wasn't fast enough to take all the pressure off as soon as combat ended (key for running battles and harrassing attacks), but you always went into the next fight with enough hp to stand a chance. The fact that it went off of max hp instead of a set amount was pretty revolutionary at the time, but one of the few things I do like about 4e's percentage-based healing.

So basically I want healing to still be a long-term expendable resource (daily), that is applied at combat speed to restore a percentage of max hp, and slowly regenerates on its own to a set level outside of combat. I think that strikes a good balance between the healer being useful in combat and the party being able to do without one out of combat. Some kind of wound system sounds like an interesting idea, but I've found the Wounds/vitality system to be a bit swingy when powerful/high crit range weapons are involves. I don;t have experience with a lasting wound system (like Dragon Age?), but it interests me as a way to make hitting 0 matter even if you recover halfway afterwards. You get what I mean?
I like the idea of a limited wound system.   Maybe on a critical, that means that the creature or PC has suffered a noticable wound that hinders his performance (-2 to all rolls until healed by spell).  That might work.  I like the idea of making criticals more substatial, but I'm afraid a full blown wound system would slow down combat and really begin to gimp PCs to often.

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I'm the guy that always volunteered to pick my class last and thus played cleric or Druid most of the time. Contrary to some, I enjoyed the healer role (past tense, because 4e really frustrates me in this regard). So I have strong views on this topic.

3A

I like having a healer as a staple of the adventuring party.That requires that healing be available on a "right now" basis, but still dependant on a given character actually expending some resources on it. As the healer, it drives me right up the wall if my primary focus (healing) doesn't work for no apparent reason. Given that healing surges aren't exactly a visible resource (or one that really makes sense in the context of someone in the world thinking about it), you have the odd possible situation where my 100% fresh and faithful cleric of a God of healing walks into a torture chamber in the depths of the dungeon (combat ensues, the party is victorious), tries to heal a prisoner (captured PC), and gets told "it doesn't work." He's been beaten and healed too many times today for my powers to work? Really people?  


Oh and the cleric has a couple of abilities that work even when the subject has no healing surges... might want to try one of those... but your simplest magics require he has deeper energy for you to inspire him to overcome his current exhaustion... Really that sounds perfectly reasonable to me... 

On the other hand lets look at  3e? ooooh look a bandolier of healing potions or a wand of healing and again and again he pops back to his feat gotta love them energy drinks... Doesnt that sound tacky to you? like some video game.

Magic has limits the limits are sometimes in the subject themselves..  to me that is very cool.


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Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Given that healing surges aren't exactly a visible resource (or one that really makes sense in the context of someone in the world thinking about it)


This is why I like referring to them as wounds
But even as presented in 4e, there's a difference between "worn out" and "exhausted": 0hp=worn out; need some form of pick me up. 0 surges=exhausted, literally nothing left.
 He's been beaten and healed too many times today for my powers to work? Really people? 


You can get him conscious, and able to walk and act normally, you just can't get him capable for combat again. Unless you use more powerful magics

Seems perfectly reasonable to me...

The only thing I find slightly odd is that failed death saves don't take surges away, given as I'd expect them to be a pretty draining thing. But that's a minor issue. 

Oh and the cleric has a couple of abilities that work even when the subject has no healing surges... might want to try one of those... but your simplest magics require he has deeper energy for you to inspire him to overcome his current exhaustion... Really that sounds perfectly reasonable to me... 

On the other hand lets look at  3e? ooooh look a bandolier of healing potions or a wand of healing and again and again he pops back to his feat gotta love them energy drinks... Doesnt that sound tacky to you? like some video game.

Magic has limits the limits are sometimes in the subject themselves..  to me that is very cool.

Did look, did use. 1 cure light wounds in a day isn't nearly enough. Having to quit for the day because the defender did his job and actually took damage faster than everyone else isn't fun. It's right back to the whole complaint about vancian wizards making everyone stop because his spells are all used up. It's the rare 4e player that says he misses that. The resources of a single character shouldn't cripple the entire party when used up doing his job. I wouldn't mind as much if healing surges were a shared resource where I could draw from his or mine equally well to heal him (or other willing characters could assist me by donating theirs). As is, it requires me to constantly track something on someone else's sheet or have my efforts wasted. To add insult to aggravation, I can't even trade combat encounter powers (which I rarely need) for more utilities (which I actually like). That's kind of the point of my complaint. The premier healing class of the game should be able to be more than 80% offense / 20% actual healing. That and it's a pain that things like my healing strike only work if I hit, which is less often against stronger enemies, which is the time when the healing is most needed. See the flaw with that? I'm punished if the defender does his job and I'm not allowed to be better at my job to compensate? Really?

I'm curious where your 3e guy got bandoleers of potions. My DMs never offered infinite magic shops. It isn't an assumption of the game either. Frankly, if he spent the gp and xp to craft that many personally I'd say he earned it. Nobody has been willing to do it yet that I've seen. DM's only make that stuff available  for sale if the party lacks a healer for some reason, in which case they tend to conserve it because they don't know when a replacement wand will be available.
That complaint makes a lot more sense to me than the verisimilitude issue. The ability to sacrifice your own surges to heal others is a great feature for Paladins, and would have been very nice to make available to clerics.


My personal preference, btw, is for 3C, possibly leaning a bit more to the A side than 4e did, at least for clerics.

Surges/wounds for everyone, with normal healing easily available, but surgeless healing/wound healing something that full-on healer characters can do really well. 

Oh and the cleric has a couple of abilities that work even when the subject has no healing surges... might want to try one of those... but your simplest magics require he has deeper energy for you to inspire him to overcome his current exhaustion... Really that sounds perfectly reasonable to me... 

On the other hand lets look at  3e? ooooh look a bandolier of healing potions or a wand of healing and again and again he pops back to his feat gotta love them energy drinks... Doesnt that sound tacky to you? like some video game.

Magic has limits the limits are sometimes in the subject themselves..  to me that is very cool.

Did look, did use. 1 cure light wounds in a day isn't nearly enough. Having to quit for the day because the defender did his job 


Comrades succor and lend him the surges he needs ... gee done deal.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 


Comrades succor and lend him the surges he needs ... gee done deal.


Keep thinking that's a higher level ritual, because it's such an awesome ritual. But nope, level 1. :-o
Difference of flavor. D&D specifically has healing magic granted by divine (nearly all powerful) beings. It is the cleric's limits as the conduit of such power that is supposed to matter, not the target. If the God of healing decides to heal someone it gets done no matter how beat up he's been today. I do read other fiction though that has healers drawing their strength directly from physical reserves. It still makes fantasy sense, it just doesn't match the flavor in any of the established settings. I really dislike having my character break setting because of mechanics. Besides, that concept really fits better for the kind of empathic healing/temp hp loops psions used to use. Too be fair, I had the same frustration that my Warlord utilites were so much more effective and reliable that trying to hit with an encounter power. We did play above our level so relative accuracy was not on our side. Effects that work without needing to roll are much more rewarding in that style of game. Which seems to not be that uncommon judging by some of the other threads regarding level appropriate encounters.

I still don't see why people complain about healing items. Sacrificing your gold (a finite resource) for the partial equivalent of a rest (an infinite free resource) leaves them behind WBL if abused (which becomes a vicious cycle since you need the appropriate WBL to handle challenges of your level). That even leaves out the xp, feats, and time between adventures that used to be necessary to make all those potions/scrolls/wands.

Comrades succor and lend him the surges he needs ... gee done deal.


Keep thinking that's a higher level ritual, because it's such an awesome ritual. But nope, level 1. :-o



We call it "Blood Brotherhood" and picture the cut and clasping palms and spit in a circle. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Difference of flavor. D&D specifically has healing magic granted by divine (nearly all powerful) beings.



Just this right here.  Does this mean you disapprove of Bards, Ardents, Artificers, Shamans, and Warlords?  If so, I am afraid I can't respect your opinion in matters of gaming.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
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58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]


So basically, you'd like there to be a hard mode in the system?  Provided they provide an easy mode as well, I'm game. Pun totally intended.



Ideally, I would like what i suggested to be the default. An easy mode could be released as a Basic D&D line, like in the past.
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LIFE CYCLE OF A RULES THREAD

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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

 Faith healing... the faith healers of real life will tell you its dependent on the subject even. ;p
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Artificers can use anyone's surges to power their primary healing ability.  

As someone that was psyched about 4e but wound up disappointed with it, I still think healing surges and creating healers that weren't clerics was the best addition to the game.  Clerics or druids were never popular in my main group and I doubt they will be in the future.  My favorite 4e character was an artificer, while I never would have entertained the idea of playing a cleric personally.  In 4e we've had a Leader character in every group, due almost entirely on them not having to play a cleric (although we did have one cleric as well, but that was a non-regular sitting in on a few adventures).
To me miracles need to be less affected by mortal sleep cycles they should in fact be used as encouragement for pressing on, the divine rewards heros who persevere that sort of thing. 

Miracles of no game I can think of are done right.

Not that I think inspiration has to come from miracles, I differentiate wounds and hit points just like it has always been but I think we need wounds in an optional gritty plug in for those who have there head stuck and cant get that they are not the same. Remove Wound needs to be a lower level version of Remove Affliction Ritual and allow the Martial Practice to be Stitch Wound and so on. 



  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Difference of flavor. D&D specifically has healing magic granted by divine (nearly all powerful) beings.



Just this right here.  Does this mean you disapprove of Bards, Ardents, Artificers, Shamans, and Warlords?  If so, I am afraid I can't respect your opinion in matters of gaming.



I was just talking about my healers I've played (CoD both fell under the divine power source originally). My mechanical and game dynamic objections to healing surges and the way they punish the Defender & Leader for doing their jobs stand on their own.  I have no bone to pick with the flavor of the other healers (for martial healers it makes perfect sense that the target has limited ability to rally himself). Primal is essentially a new thing, so it has no identity established and enshrined in the fiction. Artificer is unique to Eberron. I don't like Eberron, I don't play in Eberron, thus I feel that I have no right to speak good or ill of material that stays in Eberron. As my collection of books for 4e stopped after Arcane/Divine/Martial/Primal Power, none of my comments are intended to reflect on psionics or other new sources/classes as they exist in 4e.

I've pretty much given up on getting respect from people who disagree with me on forums, so it's always a nice surprise when someone actually pays attention and discusses an opposing veiwpoint in a civil manner.  Assuming that has been your intent, then you still have mine.
I love surges, but please find a better name. Reserves works well. Heroic Surges is still better than healing surges.

I also like HPs being a per-encounter resource, with surges presenting a hard daily limit on what your body can achieve. 
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
Difference of flavor. D&D specifically has healing magic granted by divine (nearly all powerful) beings.



Just this right here.  Does this mean you disapprove of Bards, Ardents, Artificers, Shamans, and Warlords?  If so, I am afraid I can't respect your opinion in matters of gaming.



I was just talking about my healers I've played (CoD both fell under the divine power source originally). My mechanical and game dynamic objections to healing surges and the way they punish the Defender & Leader for doing their jobs stand on their own.  I have no bone to pick with the flavor of the other healers (for martial healers it makes perfect sense that the target has limited ability to rally himself). Primal is essentially a new thing, so it has no identity established and enshrined in the fiction. Artificer is unique to Eberron. I don't like Eberron, I don't play in Eberron, thus I feel that I have no right to speak good or ill of material that stays in Eberron. As my collection of books for 4e stopped after Arcane/Divine/Martial/Primal Power, none of my comments are intended to reflect on psionics or other new sources/classes as they exist in 4e.

I've pretty much given up on getting respect from people who disagree with me on forums, so it's always a nice surprise when someone actually pays attention and discusses an opposing veiwpoint in a civil manner.  Assuming that has been your intent, then you still have mine.



On the healing surges: how do you see them as punishing the Leader and Defender, if I might ask?  I mean, I always assumed that the reason the defenders always get more than anyone else is because they need it more than anyone else.  I've never respected campaign boundry lines, so the Artificer, Swordmage, and alternate builds within Dark Sun are always open to my players, as well as the races in all the books, supplements, even ones from the magazines.  I like a wild and crazy campaign though, and I know that's not for everyone.

I did mean what I said in a civil manner, which is why I specifically said that would only loose the ability to respect your tastes in gaming matters.  There are tastes in music my wife has that make me unable to totally respect her music choices; that doesn't mean I don't love or respect my wife.  It just means I think some of her music choices are abysmal. ;)


So basically, you'd like there to be a hard mode in the system?  Provided they provide an easy mode as well, I'm game. Pun totally intended.



Ideally, I would like what i suggested to be the default. An easy mode could be released as a Basic D&D line, like in the past.



In my experience, a game that is first made with its easiest "mode" in place, and then has things added onto it for difficulty and complexity works better than attempting to take away or downgrade from a harder game.  Commonly easy modes in those games that started with a hard mode or gritty, survivalist or more realist mode and try to reduce difficulty often feel forced.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
Why healing surges actually punish the Defender for excelling at his role and prevents the healer from fulfilling his.

The purpose of the Defender role is to force the enemy to attack him to the exclusion of all other party members, correct? Thus, the more successful a defender is at doing so, the higher the total percentage of enemy damage output that comes out of his HP. As his success rate approaches 100% in his role, the defender takes increasingly more damage per encounter. This means that other character's number of healing surges becomes less and less relevant. Given that he is taking such consistant and heavy damage, he must spend correspondingly more healing surges to recover. Once he runs out, the party must either stop for the day or risk him falling in an otherwise less than challenging encounter. Even if you try to rotate duties, he lacks any real capacity to play a support role (another reason I think that no class should be purely melee). To sum up, the better a defender does his job, the less encounters he can last.

This is where the healer is supposed to come in right? Keep that defender standing as he soaks tremendous damage and support him with surgeless healing when he runs out, right? Except that you can't for more than a single fight. The game doesn't let you stockpile surgeless healing to any significant extent no matter what sacrifices you might be willing to make. Ironically the only class that can truly use it's surges for any effect in that perfectly defended party is... the paladin, another defender. What party has two defenders? Even if they did, if the paladin performs his role perfectly than there is no reason for anyone else to need surges and he himself cannot take surges from others. Vicious cycle. The better the defender the more he needs a healer, but when he runs out of surges both he and the healer are now unable to perform their function. The defender can no longer tank and the healer can no longer heal. At best your defender ends up totally sidelined while the rest of the party keeps fighting without him (if they can). At worst you are right back to the vancian 15min workday. If the defender excels, he slows the game with frequent need for extended rest. If he fails, a PC may die. Why would anyone want to play a role that actively punishes you for being anything but mediocre? Either way the healer is left failing at his chosen function and it isn't even his fault. How is that appealing? I don't understand the perspective that would call it a good thing to have a system invalidate the very function of healer and at the same time effectively require you to have one.

It also truly puzzles me how 4e players tend to absolutely hate the idea of healing being a limited resource as a number of spells per day (or any class being based purely on daily effects of any kind), but have no such problem with the defender and healer being similarly dependant on a limited number of surges per day. The only thing that really changed is that the healer actually had responsibility for his own endurance (and several ways to optimize for it) and your tank could actually make the healers job easier by optimizing for AC. Sadly, 3.5 did a better job of establishing potential synergy between the tank and healer than 4e even allows between the Defender and Leader. Wasn't having characters work well together supposed to be a primary objective of the entire Role approach to character design?
Why healing surges actually punish the Defender for excelling at his role and prevents the healer from fulfilling his.

The purpose of the Defender role is to force the enemy to attack him to the exclusion of all other party members, correct? Thus, the more successful a defender is at doing so, the higher the total percentage of enemy damage output that comes out of his HP. As his success rate approaches 100% in his role, the defender takes increasingly more damage per encounter. This means that other character's number of healing surges becomes less and less relevant. Given that he is taking such consistant and heavy damage, he must spend correspondingly more healing surges to recover. Once he runs out, the party must either stop for the day or risk him falling in an otherwise less than challenging encounter. Even if you try to rotate duties, he lacks any real capacity to play a support role (another reason I think that no class should be purely melee). To sum up, the better a defender does his job, the less encounters he can last.


I think you're being far too extreme with your characterization of the defender role. Yes, the defender often tries to prevent enemies from attacking allies. No, this doesn't mean that 100% of the enemies' damage is applied to the defender. Defenders have very high AC compared to the classes they're meant to defend, which means that attacks redirected to the defender are less likely to hit - and this assumes that the monster attacks the defender, which it doesn't have to do. Defenders' marks aren't only about making the defender into a target, they're about forcing the monster to make a difficult decision on who to attack. Also, the fact that the defender redirects many attacks means crucially that those attacks, and their associated status effect, are not applied to the other members of the party, who are then free to act and kill off the enemies.

Short version: 4E defenders' redirection of attacks doesn't mean that they become the sole agents of 4E combat encounters.
@Journeyman: no defender can ever get 100% unless the DM specificially decides to have every monster attack them.  What the defender does do is get more than their share of attacks.  However, they also have higher defenses and more HP than other roles.  Lastly, they have more surges than anyone else.  What this means in game is that the defender does not run out of surges right away.  In fact, most often the first one to run out of surges is one of the characters with a base of 6 and a 10 Con.  At it takes is one or two good hits and they are almost out of surges already.

And the leaders don't fail at their function: they allow people to spend healing surges, often with a bonus to the amount of HP recovered.  Just like in all versions of D&D, the healer does their best to keep people healed.  Sometimes the fights are just too hard, and someone dies.

Lastly, I've never seen anyone (4E player or otherwise) "hate the idea of healing being a limited resource as a number of spells per day, but have no such problem with [4E roles] being similarly dependent on a number of surges per day."  The issue I do see people have with past editions was the existance of unlimited healing: wands of cure light wounds, etc.

In my experience with 4E, there is a lot of synergy between characters, and teamwork is a very important part of combat.


Short version: 4E defenders' redirection of attacks doesn't mean that they become the sole agents of 4E combat encounters.


For me the mark is oftent literally interfering with enemies attacks against your allies ie it is defending them, in one way or another. For an ajacent enemy its as much the fact that they can parry or even launching interuptions which may or may not count as an attack sometimes its only threat and intimidation but not always. The details of the mark vary completely ofcourse from defender to defender.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I guess I would go option 3 or 4.

I am not a big fan of healing surges or second wind, but I do like the concept of "healers" being useful but not required. IMO, one reason combat ran so long was the (over) abundance of healing - but that is another thread. ;)

As a DM, death is rarely a serious threat for my players, even when I am actively trying to create a little tension. I thought AD&D was a little too harsh, but something in-between would be good.

How about (in 4e terms)...
1. Short rest - regain 1/4 hit points
2. Extended rest - regain full hit points
3. Healing magic, limited supply
4. Second wind as an optional rule

Cheers...

Z
Too extreme? Not by a lot. I doubt any defender can actually manage to pull 100% of aggro outside of tunnels, but I speak from experience as to his lack of endurance. In a level 1-20 game we rarely lasted more than 2-3 fights per day before our fighter ran too low on surges to risk continuing. Perhaps power creep after the initial splats changed this, but his AC was only ever a point or two higher than anyone besides the wizard. He got hit regularly and unless we faced an ambush he was always the first character to run out of surges. The rest of us usually still had at least half of ours. Given that I played a very aggressive Warlord in that game, my left over surges every day attested to his effectiveness. I backed him up with every protective power and heal the DDI gave me access to, but it still wasn't enough. He finally pushed on to the point where he ran out of surges mid-combat and died. The player built a barbarian next and we all just went all out on offense so that things would die before they could deal concentrated damage. Healing ended up an almost entirely out-of-combat thing and we all agreed not to bother with defenders again. I had to get DM permission to respec my powers since all my prot/heal choices were no longer useful. I think something is seriously wrong when not having a defender actually increases the number of encounters you can handle each day. 

YMMV Given two targets in melee with the same effective AC, our opposition always attacked the guy that hit them harder (not me). If your DM runs combat like a video game and picks targets randomly or something, I suppose that's fine for you. Personally, I expected the 4e fighter to be better than the 3.5 fighter and was sadly disappointed that a class could somehow become more versatile and yet be less rewarding to play. I suppose that isn't a problem if your defenders never excel beyond the baseline behind the math, but my groups usually consider "average" to equal uninteresting. A 55-60% average success rate at something doesn't exactly promote the feeling that you are "the best".  If you're going to feel like you are playing medieval marvel superheroes anyway, why settle for the heroic equivalent of a C+ average? You can't really feel like just a regular joe when everyone else in the world blatantly doesn't follow the same rules that you do.