Women's Perspective on 5th edition/DnDNext

As a DM, I always loved female players in my group for a bunch of reasons, but the bottom line is a more interesting(most of the time deeper) and fun game. 

That is why I am also very interested  to know what you guys think about  the 5th. What are you expecting? What new or old(previous editions) elements do you wish to see in it?

Cheers 
Dungeons & Dragons is all about imagination, not numbers.
As a DM, I always loved male players in my group for a bunch of reasons, but the bottom line is a more interesting(most of the time deeper) and fun game. 

That is why I am also very interested  to know what you girls think about  the 5th. What are you expecting? What new or old(previous editions) elements do you wish to see in it?

Cheers





Since Wizards are my favorite character type, I would like to see more spell variety and capability than in 4th edition.  If I wanted to do only a few set things every combat I would play a fighter. 


That of course has nothing to do with my gender. 


What does is if there is cheesecake, I want an equal amount of beefcake available for me in the pictures.  Muscle bound morons don't count as beefcake for most straight women.    Please have few to no open belly armor on the women.  Nothing like armor that doesn't cover the vitals on a woman.  :P 


When giving examples in 5e, I expect to see female character examples just as often as male character examples in the text. 


Having women on the creative teams for all the different aspects of design are vital.  They are much more likely to spot gross gender imballances than a man who isn't trained to see them.  I also tend to prefer female authors over male authors, but that is a personal bias for fantasy writer style.              
I signed up for 5e/D&D Next updates, but I never received any updates and questionairres. 
What "most" women find attractive is kinda all over the place compared to what most guys find attractive, but your hard pressed to go wrong with a well toned shirtless man. 

Also just put a pic of Sorin Markov in the book someplace and you will have my money no matter the quality of the product.
I don't have high hopes (or rather, high expectations) but I do hope they'll at least try to curb their errata a little. Usually, errata is small stuff, like an unclear phrasing or a sentence accidentally missing, but the last time I checked out 4e errata, it was “magic missile now hits automatically and deals a different amount of damage, because we wanted to be more old-school”.

That's not “we were a bit unclear about it the first time”, “this rule had an unintentional side-effect, make these minor corrections”, or “we forgot to say that these two bonuses don't stack” or anything like that, it's “we decided to change a rule out of nowhere because we found out we would rather follow a different design-philosophy”.

Eventually, I felt like I couldn't make a character without its abilities changing every month. 3.5 introducing nerfs (like the PHB2 wildshape variant) and replacements for older rules (like in Tome of Battle) through new material was annoying at times, but at least it gave people a choice. And perhaps it's the optimiser in me speaking, but feat-taxes aren't much of a choice.

Also, I would like for less beefcake, and more attractive (and preferably scantily clad) men instead ;)
Also, I would like for less beefcake, and more attractive (and preferably scantily clad) men instead ;)



Aesthetically pleasing male art would be empowering for males as well.
Dark Sun DM starting October 18th 2010 Level 4 Tiefling Orbizard Level 3 Tiefling Telepath Psion

12.jpg
D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium


When giving examples in 5e, I expect to see female character examples just as often as male character examples in the text. 


      It isn't quite as silly as doing the same thing for football, but D&D is still heavily male in just about all aspects, and having anything like close to even counts as just unreal and unfair to the majority.


Having women on the creative teams for all the different aspects of design are vital.  They are much more likely to spot gross gender imballances than a man who isn't trained to see them.            


     So the women on any creative team are not there to make a better game?  But to demand some sort of mathematical equality?   As the question goes... "Do you want your pilot to be of the same race, sex, culture, sexual orientation, etc?  Or do you want the one who kicked ass in flight school?"
This past weekend at Norwescon I got to attend a 'ask a designer' panel which included monte cook, and got a chance to ask if the growing presence of girl gamers affected design.  They gave a very interesting responces, including on how it made them more aware of stereotypes, not just female/male.  Thus it gives me hope to see what they do in that regard.  Though I do wish I thought to ask if that meant better art work :P

When giving examples in 5e, I expect to see female character examples just as often as male character examples in the text. 


      It isn't quite as silly as doing the same thing for football, but D&D is still heavily male in just about all aspects, and having anything like close to even counts as just unreal and unfair to the majority. 



I like how Whitewolf does it.  Almost every pronoun used whenever there isn't a specific person being talked about is 'she' or 'her' by default.  It doesn't really matter in the end, really, so they use Her, and She just because. Maybe to be different, maybe to make women happy.  I think it's cool.
     So the women on any creative team are not there to make a better game?  But to demand some sort of mathematical equality?   As the question goes... "Do you want your pilot to be of the same race, sex, culture, sexual orientation, etc?  Or do you want the one who kicked ass in flight school?"




Women on any creative team WILL make a better game.   The game will be better because it includes the viewpoints from a different cultural perspective than the male team members.  When a creative product only has one gender involved it can easily unintentionally offend or make the non-represented gender indifferent/uninterested in that product. 


If you want to expand your products audience, it is always a good idea to have representatives from that gender/culture/regional be a part of your design team.  At minimum, these representatives should be part of the game testers, but by then if glaring mistakes/offenses are found it can be a lot more expensive to change than if they were noticed in the original design phase.  If these mistakes/offenses make it into print, then the product develops a poor reputation and that lowers the capability to expand the products audience.


One of the things I personally do is get other women addicted to games.  However, if there are blatantly problematic elements in an RPG, I don't even bother to try to spread the addiction.  I have to love the product to sell the product.  I got a lot of women addicted to 3.x D&D.  I couldn't even force myself to  continue to play let alone get any other woman interested in 4th edition.            
Oddly, WOTC seemed not not have changed their policies there with 4th ed. It is not more anti-women or such a game.

But you make interesting points. 



Women on any creative team WILL make a better game.   The game will be better because it includes the viewpoints from a different cultural perspective than the male team members.     



So simply by having a woman on the team, no matter her ability, she will automatically cause the team to make a better game... just because she is on the team and a woman.
That is ridiculous, as well as bigoted and sexist.

Also, just because a game "includes the viewpoints from a different cultural perspective" doesn't automatically mean it is "better" than other games.

Honeydipper Dive Monkey



Women on any creative team WILL make a better game.   The game will be better because it includes the viewpoints from a different cultural perspective than the male team members.     



So simply by having a woman on the team, no matter her ability, she will automatically cause the team to make a better game... just because she is on the team and a woman.
That is ridiculous, as well as bigoted and sexist.

Also, just because a game "includes the viewpoints from a different cultural perspective" doesn't automatically mean it is "better" than other games.


To be fair, the woman may be conservative and such.. well. Sarah Palin is no feminist, by example.

But think about it, lad; a game made BY A WHOLE OF WHITEY BOYS WILL BE MADE FOR AND MUCH FOR BOYS. With all that implies. Bringing so more non-whites and women in design teams in the lon run will present more ideas - different personas, cultural mores, etc.

If there would be many québecois like me by exmple, maybe the game would be a bit less Arthurian-tolkienesm in names at least. More like Kaamelot in feel, ehehe. Less serious example, but.. 


 To be fair, the woman may be conservative and such.. well. Sarah Palin is no feminist, by example.
 


I never mentioned politics.
Funny that you would.


Honeydipper Dive Monkey


 To be fair, the woman may be conservative and such.. well. Sarah Palin is no feminist, by example.
 


I never mentioned politics.
Funny that you would.



Politics is in everything; art, games, they can be deeper than mere entertainements, and be socially, politically etc engaged. Albeit I meaned conservative in an overall way.

(Social Conservatism and serious Feminism clash, let's say. I know feminism quite by now, being a Québec Solidaire voter. 

If D&D become a game someone like Françoise David wouldn't mind her daughters (or grand daughters) play, this is massive win.)( 



Women on any creative team WILL make a better game.   The game will be better because it includes the viewpoints from a different cultural perspective than the male team members.     



So simply by having a woman on the team, no matter her ability, she will automatically cause the team to make a better game... just because she is on the team and a woman.
That is ridiculous, as well as bigoted and sexist.

Also, just because a game "includes the viewpoints from a different cultural perspective" doesn't automatically mean it is "better" than other games.




Don't think too much in black&white. She meant that when having the choice of an equally able all-white-male dev team and an equally able more diverse dev team, the one with more diversity will be the winning horse since you'd have a broader angle of view.

No one would actually try to put in a random woman from the street into a highly focused team, such as chemists, and would hope she'd make a difference in team performance ;)
If we are talking purely in "game" terms I'm sure that replacing a man with an equally qualified woman should have little effect on the mechanics of it. However when it comes to building a game world/environment and detailing out social and fluff aspects of the game then having more varied experiences to draw from in the group of creators can only lead to a stronger and more varied experience.

This applies mostly to gender but can come from other sources as well. For instance having both men and women on the team can lead to a more balanced view when it comes to writing cultural details of certain races. Having only one or the other gender may lead to the other gender being underwritten, stereotyped, or even mostly ignored. Imagine a team full of atheists writing a Deities & Demigods type source book. Its not that they couldn't write a good one, but having religious people on board probably makes it a more well rounded experience.
Dark Sun DM starting October 18th 2010 Level 4 Tiefling Orbizard Level 3 Tiefling Telepath Psion

12.jpg
D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium


When giving examples in 5e, I expect to see female character examples just as often as male character examples in the text. 


      It isn't quite as silly as doing the same thing for football, but D&D is still heavily male in just about all aspects, and having anything like close to even counts as just unreal and unfair to the majority.


How is equal representation in art unfair?  Women make up slightly more than half the population, which technically makes them the majority.


Having women on the creative teams for all the different aspects of design are vital.  They are much more likely to spot gross gender imballances than a man who isn't trained to see them.            


     So the women on any creative team are not there to make a better game?  But to demand some sort of mathematical equality?   As the question goes... "Do you want your pilot to be of the same race, sex, culture, sexual orientation, etc?  Or do you want the one who kicked ass in flight school?"


It's a proven fact in the business world that teams containing a diversity of races, genders, & opinions produce a better product (whehter it be a business proposal or designing a game).

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.




Women on any creative team WILL make a better game.   The game will be better because it includes the viewpoints from a different cultural perspective than the male team members.     



So simply by having a woman on the team, no matter her ability, she will automatically cause the team to make a better game... just because she is on the team and a woman.
That is ridiculous, as well as bigoted and sexist.


Well, to be fair Sewer Knight, that strawman position you invented is only as ridiculous, bigoted, and sexist as arguing against legitimate diversity.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

     So the women on any creative team are not there to make a better game?  But to demand some sort of mathematical equality?   As the question goes... "Do you want your pilot to be of the same race, sex, culture, sexual orientation, etc?  Or do you want the one who kicked ass in flight school?"




Women on any creative team WILL make a better game.   The game will be better because it includes the viewpoints from a different cultural perspective than the male team members.  When a creative product only has one gender involved it can easily unintentionally offend or make the non-represented gender indifferent/uninterested in that product. 


If you want to expand your products audience, it is always a good idea to have representatives from that gender/culture/regional be a part of your design team.  At minimum, these representatives should be part of the game testers, but by then if glaring mistakes/offenses are found it can be a lot more expensive to change than if they were noticed in the original design phase.  If these mistakes/offenses make it into print, then the product develops a poor reputation and that lowers the capability to expand the products audience.
 





I agree with you. It is ok to make hiring choices based on a preferred race/gender just so long as the end goal is profit. I do however recommend making up a story less likely to get you sued when you tell the guy why you did not pick him.  

well, at least in the art section, there seems to be quite a balanced gender diversity now and Jon already admitted that the art team was doing mistakes in the past regarding diversity. So, I have good hopes for the general world design (especially after seeing that "cultures" entry in the art submission section) in terms of non-standard-models

The only thing where I haven't seen any woman so far is actual game mechanics and those guys did do some beginner's mistakes in their columns and interviews in my opinion. But maybe I'm a bit sensitive here
Women make up slightly more than half the population, which technically makes them the majority.


That's an interesting statement to make without citing a source.

I'm going to have to call you on it. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, males make up slightly more than half the world population.

It's a proven fact in the business world that teams containing a diversity of races, genders, & opinions produce a better product (whehter it be a business proposal or designing a game).


Another bold statement without a source.

I'm going to call bull on it. A team composed of a dozen people of different races/religions/genders that have no experience will create a bad business proposal or a bad game. Experience and skill matters more than race/religion/gender.
Boraxe wrote: "Knowledge of the rules and creativity are great attributes for a DM, but knowing when to cut loose and when to hold back, when to follow the rules and when to discard them, in order to enhance the enjoyment of the game is the most important DM skill of all." Keeper of the Sacred Kitty Bowl of the House of Trolls. Resident Kitteh-napper.
Women make up slightly more than half the population, which technically makes them the majority.


That's an interesting statement to make without citing a source.

I'm going to have to call you on it. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, males make up slightly more than half the world population.



I found one from the U.S. Census Bureau as well.  U.S. population as of 2010 census: 49.2% male, 50.8% female.

It's a proven fact in the business world that teams containing a diversity of races, genders, & opinions produce a better product (whehter it be a business proposal or designing a game).


Another bold statement without a source.

I'm going to call bull on it. A team composed of a dozen people of different races/religions/genders that have no experience will create a bad business proposal or a bad game. Experience and skill matters more than race/religion/gender.


It's only a bold statement when you completely misconstrue it as you did, which is a common anti-diversity tactic.  diversity (of races, genders, & opinions) produces a superior product than an equally skilled/experienced group lacking in said diversity.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


diversity (of races, genders, & opinions) produces a superior product than an equally skilled/experienced group lacking in said diversity.




I am sure your right, However before I go off discriminating based on preferred gender/race for my project, a source to reassure me would be handy if you don't mind linking yours. Also any tips on how to make sure I pick a good female? I would hate to pick a women only to find out she likes all the same things as the rest of my team and fails to meet the needed diversity quota. Or is the simple fact she has a vagina sufficient to improve my product?

Also seeing as fallopian tubes can now be recognized as a  skill set others are lacking can she ask for a higher pay then her  male counterparts based on the fact she is not male?

Also we keep talking like all the applicants have the same level of skill (that is a  +10 btw) but are ignoring the fact that the diversity gives a situational modifier of like +3. With this in mind I assume it is ok to take the lower skilled applicant if it will min/max my diversity modifier and produce a better product?

I don't know.... this is all kinda complicated and I kinda suck at min maxing. Would it be ok if I just keep at the application process tell I find even a small flaw that would set one applicant above the other without basing any of my hiring choices on race or gender? Who knows I might even get lucky and get naturally accruing diversity as opposed to artificial diversity based on discrimination!

Listen I know you all mean well but not only is hiring a women because she is a women over a man unethical it is also illegal and your going to have a really hard time convincing a court that being a women falls under the BFOQ exception for RPG writing.

...Also dispute all this when the rubber hits the road I am the most unethical of you all. I would not only hire the women but I would also lie to them both about why, all just so I could get the +2 bones to save vs lawsuit and get people like you to pat me on the back for my diversity. This make me a hypocrite? Yes, but I get the best product and help avoid discrimination lawsuits. Win/win for everyone! Well other then the guy who was rejected because he has a penis.


It's a proven fact in the business world that teams containing a diversity of races, genders, & opinions produce a better product (whehter it be a business proposal or designing a game).


Then prove it.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse."- John Stuart Mill “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”― William F. Buckley "The straw in your man is amazing."- Maxperson Original Hipster of the House of Trolls: I was hipster before hipster was cool Resident Hater Mini Hate Machine



Women on any creative team WILL make a better game.   The game will be better because it includes the viewpoints from a different cultural perspective than the male team members.     



So simply by having a woman on the team, no matter her ability, she will automatically cause the team to make a better game... just because she is on the team and a woman.
That is ridiculous, as well as bigoted and sexist.


Well, to be fair Sewer Knight, that strawman position you invented is only as ridiculous, bigoted, and sexist as arguing against legitimate diversity.


Oh, so it is only sexist and bigoted when a man does it toward a woman.
Got it!
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse."- John Stuart Mill “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”― William F. Buckley "The straw in your man is amazing."- Maxperson Original Hipster of the House of Trolls: I was hipster before hipster was cool Resident Hater Mini Hate Machine
Experience and skill matters more than race/religion/gender.


SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Don't tell the liberals!!!!
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse."- John Stuart Mill “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”― William F. Buckley "The straw in your man is amazing."- Maxperson Original Hipster of the House of Trolls: I was hipster before hipster was cool Resident Hater Mini Hate Machine

diversity (of races, genders, & opinions) produces a superior product than an equally skilled/experienced group lacking in said diversity.




I am sure your right, However before I go off discriminating based on preferred gender/race for my project, a source to reassure me would be handy if you don't mind linking yours. Also any tips on how to make sure I pick a good female? I would hate to pick a women only to find out she likes all the same things as the rest of my team and fails to meet the needed diversity quota. Or is the simple fact she has a vagina sufficient to improve my product?

Also seeing as fallopian tubes can now be recognized as a  skill set others are lacking can she ask for a higher pay then her  male counterparts based on the fact she is not male?

Also we keep talking like all the applicants have the same level of skill (that is a  +10 btw) but are ignoring the fact that the diversity gives a situational modifier of like +3. With this in mind I assume it is ok to take the lower skilled applicant if it will min/max my diversity modifier and produce a better product?

I don't know.... this is all kinda complicated and I kinda suck at min maxing. Would it be ok if I just keep at the application process tell I find even a small flaw that would set one applicant above the other without basing any of my hiring choices on race or gender? Who knows I might even get lucky and get naturally accruing diversity as opposed to artificial diversity based on discrimination!

Listen I know you all mean well but not only is hiring a women because she is a women over a man unethical it is also illegal and your going to have a really hard time convincing a court that being a women falls under the BFOQ exception for RPG writing.

...Also dispute all this when the rubber hits the road I am the most unethical of you all. I would not only hire the women but I would also lie to them both about why, all just so I could get the +2 bones to save vs lawsuit and get people like you to pat me on the back for my diversity. This make me a hypocrite? Yes, but I get the best product and help avoid discrimination lawsuits. Win/win for everyone! Well other then the guy who was rejected because he has a penis.


"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse."- John Stuart Mill “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”― William F. Buckley "The straw in your man is amazing."- Maxperson Original Hipster of the House of Trolls: I was hipster before hipster was cool Resident Hater Mini Hate Machine


It's a proven fact in the business world that teams containing a diversity of races, genders, & opinions produce a better product (whehter it be a business proposal or designing a game).


Then prove it.



What obligation am I under to do anything you tell me to do?  It's not even liked you asked, much less nicely.  If you believe it's false, that's fine.  I really don't care if you believe it or not because you have offered nothing to disprove something that I know to be true.  Furthermore, you have a record of taking extreme positions that renders nearly any opinion you spout little more than a boring blur on my screen.  If you're trying to be provocative, you're going to have to try harder.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

The WUSTL researchers evaluated the productivity of workers in factory that shifted from paying based on piecework to group productivity. They found those groups with diversity in skills --- different kinds of experience and training --- were the most productive. And because they were so productive, and earned the most money, these groups experienced less frequent turnover, saving the company even more money. Members of the team were able to offer unique contributions. Their value to the team wasn't based on a variable they couldn't control, like race or age, but rather on their abilities.

When you group workers together simply based on a perceived need to have different demographics working together, you can create communication problems, which ruin their productivity. Some workers may have a natural preference to workwith people who are similar, and if they have not been educated about the business benefits of diversity, they may feel threatened and imposed upon. This could limit how much information they share with team members. These loosely tied groups also have less trust among members. In addition, if some employees' opinions are valued and acted upon more than others, your organization is bound to see higher turnover, all of which negatively affect productivity.

It's easy to get diversity wrong. What's important to remember is that diversity, like any other initiative, must support your business goals. It's not a feel-good solution, so don't worry about painting a rainbow with your workforce. By seeking to maximize the talents and skills of your workforce, demographic diversity and improved productivity will be natural by-products.

Full disclosure the artical I found did not link sources and I don't have the time to go hunting so I have not read them. However I do think demographic diversity for the sake of demographic diversity is overstated. I just don't think a women is so alien. If you must pick somebody to increases diversity it should be diversity of skill. 



The WUSTL researchers evaluated the productivity of workers in factory that shifted from paying based on piecework to group productivity. They found those groups with diversity in skills --- different kinds of experience and training --- were the most productive. And because they were so productive, and earned the most money, these groups experienced less frequent turnover, saving the company even more money. Members of the team were able to offer unique contributions. Their value to the team wasn't based on a variable they couldn't control, like race or age, but rather on their abilities.

When you group workers together simply based on a perceived need to have different demographics working together, you can create communication problems, which ruin their productivity. Some workers may have a natural preference to workwith people who are similar, and if they have not been educated about the business benefits of diversity, they may feel threatened and imposed upon. This could limit how much information they share with team members. These loosely tied groups also have less trust among members. In addition, if some employees' opinions are valued and acted upon more than others, your organization is bound to see higher turnover, all of which negatively affect productivity.

It's easy to get diversity wrong. What's important to remember is that diversity, like any other initiative, must support your business goals. It's not a feel-good solution, so don't worry about painting a rainbow with your workforce. By seeking to maximize the talents and skills of your workforce, demographic diversity and improved productivity will be natural by-products.

Full disclosure the artical I found did not link sources and I don't have the time to go hunting so I have not read them. However I do think demographic diversity for the sake of demographic diversity is overstated. I just don't think a women is so alien. If you must pick somebody to increases diversity it should be diversity of skill.

For what it's worth, I never said demographic diversity for the sake of said diversity, if it's at the expense of skills and experience, is a good thing.  All I'm saying is, if you have two equally skilled people for a single position that will be working on a collaborative project, choosing the one that adds demographic diversity is a positive thing.  Part of this comes from something you mentioned:
"Some workers may have a natural preference to workwith people who are similar . . ."
This tendency, call it bias if you will (I recognize that bias and prejudice are two different animals and that bias can be an entirely subconscious thing), occurs outside of work as well.  This tendency for like individuals to group together often means they lack a perspective that others possess and that could be beneficial to the process at hand.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


if you have two equally skilled people for a single position that will be working on a collaborative project, choosing the one that adds demographic diversity is a positive thing.


It is also unethical and illegal to discriminate based on gender or race no matter your good intentions. And make no mistake about it you are discriminating based on gender here.

Look at this the other way around.
Boss: Sorry lady but we already have our estrogen limit so you can't have this promotion because you are a women.
lady: So the equal skilled guy over there is getting the job just because I am a women?
Boss: Yes. I am very proud of myself for my forward thinking.
Lady: This is sexual discrimination you know?
Boss: Oh no... we would have hired you over that guy had you been white.
Lady: ....Is it ok if I record the rest of this conversation?


It's a proven fact in the business world that teams containing a diversity of races, genders, & opinions produce a better product (whehter it be a business proposal or designing a game).


Then prove it.



What obligation am I under to do anything you tell me to do?  It's not even liked you asked, much less nicely.  If you believe it's false, that's fine.  I really don't care if you believe it or not because you have offered nothing to disprove something that I know to be true.  Furthermore, you have a record of taking extreme positions that renders nearly any opinion you spout little more than a boring blur on my screen.  If you're trying to be provocative, you're going to have to try harder.


Hey buddy,
You made the claim that it is true, so it is up to you to prove it.
You can't.
That's why you posted as you did above.
If you can't back up your wild claims, then don't make them.

Also, if I were trying to provoke you, you would, indeed, be provoked.
However, I simply want you to back up your wild claims with proof.


"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse."- John Stuart Mill “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”― William F. Buckley "The straw in your man is amazing."- Maxperson Original Hipster of the House of Trolls: I was hipster before hipster was cool Resident Hater Mini Hate Machine

if you have two equally skilled people for a single position that will be working on a collaborative project, choosing the one that adds demographic diversity is a positive thing.


It is also unethical and illegal to discriminate based on gender or race no matter your good intentions. And make no mistake about it you are discriminating based on gender here.

Look at this the other way around.
Boss: Sorry lady but we already have our estrogen limit so you can't have this promotion because you are a women.
lady: So the equal skilled guy over there is getting the job just because I am a women?
Boss: Yes. I am very proud of myself for my forward thinking.
Lady: This is sexual discrimination you know?
Boss: Oh no... we would have hired you over that guy had you been white.
Lady: ....Is it ok if I record the rest of this conversation?


Ah, now I see where the confusion is coming from.  No, it's not about making hiring decisions based on demographic diversity.  It's about choosing current employees for a collaborative project.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Stoopid forums must have eaten my post. That's okay, I remember what I had typed, more or less.

I don't often agree with RH (don't let the avatars fool you), but in this case I have to. Refusing to provide any backup for your "proven fact" claim, and attacking someone who asks for it, is making you look just a bit childish.

I'd like some small shred of evidence that your "proven fact" is, in fact, proven.
Boraxe wrote: "Knowledge of the rules and creativity are great attributes for a DM, but knowing when to cut loose and when to hold back, when to follow the rules and when to discard them, in order to enhance the enjoyment of the game is the most important DM skill of all." Keeper of the Sacred Kitty Bowl of the House of Trolls. Resident Kitteh-napper.
Stoopid forums must have eaten my post. That's okay, I remember what I had typed, more or less.

I don't often agree with RH (don't let the avatars fool you), but in this case I have to. Refusing to provide any backup for your "proven fact" claim, and attacking someone who asks for it, is making you look just a bit childish.

I'd like some small shred of evidence that your "proven fact" is, in fact, proven.


I know I'm gonna get attacked for this.  However, in the interest of honesty, which I maintain is the best policy, I have to post this.

Firstly, I don't feel any obligation to respond to RH or Hater.  For the record, although people will believe whatever they want, I didn't report RH.  So it is you, Jetshield that I am replying to.

Secondly, I have spent the last half-hour looking for a paper that was provided to me by a professor whose class I was taking.  That paper cited a small list of sources in favor of diversity.  Several of these sources are business ones that provide anecdotal evidence only.  A couple on the list are research sources.  I'd love nothing more than to tell you that I have the paper in hand and to rattle off the list of sources.  I cannot honestly say that.  As embarassaing as it is, I simply haven't found it yet.

I am still looking for it, because I feel that you deserve an answer (although we disagree, it doesn't seem that you have any malice toward me for it).  However, until such time as I can locate it, or get another copy, I will have to back off the "proven fact" part of my statement.  I will not advocate that something is a "proven fact" when I cannot locate the proof.  I want to.  I REALLY want to.  But I can't do so in good conscience.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I've removed content from this thread because baiting and discussing moderation activity is a violation of the Code of Conduct. 
You can review the Code of Conduct here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...

Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.

Lets keep it civil please folks.

Ah, now I see where the confusion is coming from.  No, it's not about making hiring decisions based on demographic diversity.  It's about choosing current employees for a collaborative project.



Umm pretty sure promotions and special assignments still fall under the "your discriminating" rule when your making those choices based on what someone has in there pants or if here skin is the wrong color.

You lost this one.

Anyway the topics are more heated and fun when it is about how much we hate sexy art in our books!
I will make you lades a deal. I will stop calling a women in a chain male bikini proper armor if you do the same for the Spartans armor in 300?

Honestly though I know many of the women and men who post on this forum hate how a fullplate on a man makes him look powerful but the same full plate on a women... has high heals. Is there a way to coexist? Can we have sexy armor for the women who would be attracted to such a thing and realistic armor for the women who hate mid drifts. Can we take away the heals and make plate armor plate armor but not roll our eyes at the female version of... well lets be honest is we can call this armor a few female exposed abs and cleavage is ok... lets just not call it plate. What do you think =D
Content has been removed due to violations of section 3, Baiting of the Code of Conduct.

Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Since Mecha Pilot could not post any proof for his "fact" concerning diversity, I will post some sources that deny his "fact" and tends to show that diversity is NOT good simply for diversitys sake, or in production.

www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/...

www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles...

www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/008152.htm...

bpub.wharton.upenn.edu/PDF%20files/AE-S1...
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse."- John Stuart Mill “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”― William F. Buckley "The straw in your man is amazing."- Maxperson Original Hipster of the House of Trolls: I was hipster before hipster was cool Resident Hater Mini Hate Machine
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