Why Monte?

Why does Monte Cook think people want his bad rehashed 3rd edition with a 5e lable on it?  I mean if people wanted to buy his game wouldn't Malhavoc Press be successful instead of a failed publishing company that produced a pile of junk gathering dust in the discount box of the local game stores.

The latest poll just goes to show how much D&Dnext will be just the same flawed game design that he came up with 10 years ago, it seems like they can not think of anything new and just want to repackage stuff....yes it worked with Pathfinder but guess what the customer base already has ...well.... Pathfinder for that.

It really comes down to the magic system, why must spell casters be the star of the show, why must we be stuck with a horrible system of magic?

There are so many good ideas from so many different people on these boards and others like enworld and rpg.net about alternatives to the old vancian magic system. 

Feat tax to do something magical everyround....hell no not again.

The wizard stealing the show for one or two combats then making the party rest so he can do it again the next day....hell no not again.

Why Monte Cook?  What does he bring to the table besides a bunch of old ideas and bagage?

Remember this is a public forum where people express their opinions assume there is a “In my humble opinion” in front of every post especially mine.  

 

Things you should check out because they are cool, like bow-ties and fezzes.

https://app.roll20.net/home  Roll20 great free virtual table top so you can play with old friends who are far away.

http://donjon.bin.sh/  Donjon has random treasure, maps, pick pocket results, etc.. for every edition of D&D.

Well Monte and the design teams have hinted multiple times that they are trying to solve all the problems that you have mentioned.

1)Wizard stars: They have said that spells will not self scale and in order to get them more powerful you need to spend more resources.

2) Feat tax: We dont know what this feat tax could be. Maybe they will be like the 3.5 wizards bonus feats where every 5 levels you pick a "spell feat" so its on top of regular progression and not a tax.

3) 15 min worday: They have mentioned about an idea of limiting resting. IE if you just slept 8 hours you can immediately rest again.

4) Why Monte: Because some of us like Monte Cooks design. Also he isnt the only designer on the team...

Are all of these solutions going to work as they are now? probaby not. Is anything finalized? probably not.

But it shows that they are aware of the problems and trying to fix them.

Why Monte Cook?  What does he bring to the table besides a bunch of old ideas and bagage?


Not that I am completely in favor of all that Cook represents (for example, I don't like spellcasters at all), but it should be kept firmly in mind that one man's "old ideas and bagage(sic)" are another's hallowed traditions and nostalgic trappings.

If you have to resort to making offensive comments instead of making logical arguments, you deserve to be ignored.

Just to pick a nit, but in 4E there is already a mechanic in place preventing back to back extended rests.
Just to pick a nit, but in 4E there is already a mechanic in place preventing back to back extended rests.



Ah. I didnt know that. I guess it never came up when I played 4th edition as we never bothered trying to take more than one extended rest in a day.

But thats not really the point of what I was posting. I was just trying to point out that it seems that they are aware of the problems and trying to fix them. so all this negativity isnt very productive
Yeah so far every actual player I have talked to pretty much just makes loud explative exclamations as soon as I say 15 minute workday.  Pretty much the only people I have heard complain about it have bad DM's that even remotely lets this happen.  The only time it should be extended rest 1 combat and then extended rest is if the 1 combat pulls every ounce of power out of your players as a requirement for completion.  I can't speak to there actually being rules blocking the move but I will be looking back through the books to see if there are.  I never needed to know a rule like that as my gaming groups would never even think that it was a possibility.
I can dig it, like I said, just pickin' a nit 8)
 
Yeah so far every actual player I have talked to pretty much just makes loud explative exclamations as soon as I say 15 minute workday.  Pretty much the only people I have heard complain about it have bad DM's that even remotely lets this happen.  The only time it should be extended rest 1 combat and then extended rest is if the 1 combat pulls every ounce of power out of your players as a requirement for completion.  I can't speak to there actually being rules blocking the move but I will be looking back through the books to see if there are.  I never needed to know a rule like that as my gaming groups would never even think that it was a possibility.



You can not take two extended rests (and get the benefit) within a 12 hour period. That's the 4e rule.  However it doesn't stop the 15 min workday (nor will the other mechanics the devs have mentioned in DnD 5e writeups).  All one has to do is be relative safe for a full 24 hour period (rope trick in 3.x or it's higher level equivalents, magic circle in 4e) and you are set.  You simply "wait" until you can extended rest again, and I've seen nothing in the DDN stuff that says you won't be able to do this in 5e.

-Polaris
For me it's very simple. 5 encounters or more between extended rests will earn you normal experience points, 4 encounters between extended rests = 80% of normal, 3 encounters = 60%, 2 = 40% and 1 encounter = 20% of normal experience points.

With that tactic, my players are never tempted to have a 5 minutes or a 15 minutes workday.
Yeah so far every actual player I have talked to pretty much just makes loud explative exclamations as soon as I say 15 minute workday.  Pretty much the only people I have heard complain about it have bad DM's that even remotely lets this happen.  The only time it should be extended rest 1 combat and then extended rest is if the 1 combat pulls every ounce of power out of your players as a requirement for completion.  I can't speak to there actually being rules blocking the move but I will be looking back through the books to see if there are.  I never needed to know a rule like that as my gaming groups would never even think that it was a possibility.



You can not take two extended rests (and get the benefit) within a 12 hour period. That's the 4e rule.  However it doesn't stop the 15 min workday (nor will the other mechanics the devs have mentioned in DnD 5e writeups).  All one has to do is be relative safe for a full 24 hour period (rope trick in 3.x or it's higher level equivalents, magic circle in 4e) and you are set.  You simply "wait" until you can extended rest again, and I've seen nothing in the DDN stuff that says you won't be able to do this in 5e.

-Polaris




Polaris every time you try to refute this you use the example of people making an agreement to let it happen.  If your whole group is okay with it then there is no problem.  I wouldn't let this happen as a player or a DM nor would anyone I know.  The only caveat I have for that statement is if we are in fact just in a no plot dungeon crawl where there is 0 story and 0 motivation then yeah that's fine and we have made an agreement that that is fine.  Other than that there should always be repercussions and your character would know that and not just stop assaulting the Orc camp because you decided to use all your dailies in the first encounter.  because you know even if you retreat that the orcs will come and find you.  Magic circle is useless after a long enough time because your enemies can still see you standing inside of it and will just wait for the invisible wall to go down, or if they are intelligent they will bring over something that is completely unaffected by the circle and snap the circle.  Same thing goes for an exodus knife.  The exodus knife is even funnier because the party will get expunged in front of the people waiting for them to come out no mater what.  you can't even use the exodus knife to skirt the no more than one rest in 12 hours rule because the exodus knife drops you out after 8 hours.  If you just try to leave after novaing one fight the orcs will chase you down in the woods that they know better than you and will cause you great harm.  No mater what your argument always comes down to the fact that the people playing agreed to let this happen in which case there is no problem because the people playing are obviously okay with it being a way to do things.
For me it's very simple. 5 encounters or more between extended rests will earn you normal experience points, 4 encounters between extended rests = 80% of normal, 3 encounters = 60%, 2 = 40% and 1 encounter = 20% of normal experience points. With that tactic, my players are never tempted to have a 5 minutes or a 15 minutes workday.



What if there aren't five encounters?  The DM has something to say about the number of encounters too after all.  Not only that, but there are many clever ways you can 'hole up' and rest, so why punish the players for doing something that is actually a GOOD IDEA? 


This goes back to the DM fixing holes because of bad design in which case I yell, "Oberoni Fallacy".


-Polaris   
Yeah so far every actual player I have talked to pretty much just makes loud explative exclamations as soon as I say 15 minute workday.  Pretty much the only people I have heard complain about it have bad DM's that even remotely lets this happen.  The only time it should be extended rest 1 combat and then extended rest is if the 1 combat pulls every ounce of power out of your players as a requirement for completion.  I can't speak to there actually being rules blocking the move but I will be looking back through the books to see if there are.  I never needed to know a rule like that as my gaming groups would never even think that it was a possibility.



You can not take two extended rests (and get the benefit) within a 12 hour period. That's the 4e rule.  However it doesn't stop the 15 min workday (nor will the other mechanics the devs have mentioned in DnD 5e writeups).  All one has to do is be relative safe for a full 24 hour period (rope trick in 3.x or it's higher level equivalents, magic circle in 4e) and you are set.  You simply "wait" until you can extended rest again, and I've seen nothing in the DDN stuff that says you won't be able to do this in 5e.

-Polaris




Polaris every time you try to refute this you use the example of people making an agreement to let it happen.  If your whole group is okay with it then there is no problem.  I wouldn't let this happen as a player or a DM nor would anyone I know.  The only caveat I have for that statement is if we are in fact just in a no plot dungeon crawl where there is 0 story and 0 motivation then yeah that's fine and we have made an agreement that that is fine.  Other than that there should always be repercussions and your character would know that and not just stop assaulting the Orc camp because you decided to use all your dailies in the first encounter.  because you know even if you retreat that the orcs will come and find you.  Magic circle is useless after a long enough time because your enemies can still see you standing inside of it and will just wait for the invisible wall to go down, or if they are intelligent they will bring over something that is completely unaffected by the circle and snap the circle.  Same thing goes for an exodus knife.  The exodus knife is even funnier because the party will get expunged in front of the people waiting for them to come out no mater what.  you can't even use the exodus knife to skirt the no more than one rest in 12 hours rule because the exodus knife drops you out after 8 hours.  If you just try to leave after novaing one fight the orcs will chase you down in the woods that they know better than you and will cause you great harm.  No mater what your argument always comes down to the fact that the people playing agreed to let this happen in which case there is no problem because the people playing are obviously okay with it being a way to do things.



I don't have to "refute" anything.  All I have to do is invite you to learn the Oberoni Fallacy.  Specifically you've already admitted that you don't (and a DM shouldn't) punish players every time they want to take an extended rest early especially if the players have made clever and reasonable precautions to do so safely.  However, to fix the 15 min workday problem, that's what you have to do.  You have to be an unreasonable DM EVERY TIME because you are fixing a bad rule (or bad system in this case) with being an adversarial DM and essentially using a houserule (you can't rest safely because I say so EVER) to fix a bad rule.  This is a no-no.


-Polaris
Yeah so far every actual player I have talked to pretty much just makes loud explative exclamations as soon as I say 15 minute workday.  Pretty much the only people I have heard complain about it have bad DM's that even remotely lets this happen.  The only time it should be extended rest 1 combat and then extended rest is if the 1 combat pulls every ounce of power out of your players as a requirement for completion.  I can't speak to there actually being rules blocking the move but I will be looking back through the books to see if there are.  I never needed to know a rule like that as my gaming groups would never even think that it was a possibility.



You can not take two extended rests (and get the benefit) within a 12 hour period. That's the 4e rule.  However it doesn't stop the 15 min workday (nor will the other mechanics the devs have mentioned in DnD 5e writeups).  All one has to do is be relative safe for a full 24 hour period (rope trick in 3.x or it's higher level equivalents, magic circle in 4e) and you are set.  You simply "wait" until you can extended rest again, and I've seen nothing in the DDN stuff that says you won't be able to do this in 5e.

-Polaris




Polaris every time you try to refute this you use the example of people making an agreement to let it happen.  If your whole group is okay with it then there is no problem.  I wouldn't let this happen as a player or a DM nor would anyone I know.  The only caveat I have for that statement is if we are in fact just in a no plot dungeon crawl where there is 0 story and 0 motivation then yeah that's fine and we have made an agreement that that is fine.  Other than that there should always be repercussions and your character would know that and not just stop assaulting the Orc camp because you decided to use all your dailies in the first encounter.  because you know even if you retreat that the orcs will come and find you.  Magic circle is useless after a long enough time because your enemies can still see you standing inside of it and will just wait for the invisible wall to go down, or if they are intelligent they will bring over something that is completely unaffected by the circle and snap the circle.  Same thing goes for an exodus knife.  The exodus knife is even funnier because the party will get expunged in front of the people waiting for them to come out no mater what.  you can't even use the exodus knife to skirt the no more than one rest in 12 hours rule because the exodus knife drops you out after 8 hours.  If you just try to leave after novaing one fight the orcs will chase you down in the woods that they know better than you and will cause you great harm.  No mater what your argument always comes down to the fact that the people playing agreed to let this happen in which case there is no problem because the people playing are obviously okay with it being a way to do things.



I don't have to "refute" anything.  All I have to do is invite you to learn the Oberoni Fallacy.  Specifically you've already admitted that you don't (and a DM shouldn't) punish players every time they want to take an extended rest early especially if the players have made clever and reasonable precautions to do so safely.  However, to fix the 15 min workday problem, that's what you have to do.  You have to be an unreasonable DM EVERY TIME because you are fixing a bad rule (or bad system in this case) with being an adversarial DM and essentially using a houserule (you can't rest safely because I say so EVER) to fix a bad rule.  This is a no-no.


-Polaris



no polaris...Im not saying change the rules at all. I am saying that this isn't a punishment it is the natural development of the story.  If you say that the players can attack an orc camp then walk away without in some way finishing the job (this could be genocide or simply telling the orc leader to stop doing whatever it is that provoked your wrath) then I say your not writing a compelling story.  At that point you have made an agreement that your not playing a story driven game. so when your players sleep and prep spells is completely arbitrary.  In which case no one cares that your resting after every fight because your just playing for the sake of rolling numbers.  If actions have no consequences then your not playing a story driven Role Playing Game your playig a hack and slash Roll Playing Game.  Consequences are not punishments, consequences are drama and story building.  Consquences happen, all actions have them, and this is a fact not many seem to want to accept.  Also we already had this argument before so Im going to dig up the thread and post the link because I'm at work and don't need to have the same argument again.  As I don't want to suffer the consequences of wasting a day at work to repeat an argument I have already had.

There we go the same exact argument we were about to have here starts around page 12 of this thread: community.wizards.com/dndnext/go/thread/...(2012_February_21st)
First I think Monte is listening.  In my opinion Monte is one of the great game designers of the modern era.  The greatest living in my opinion now that Gary has died.   

I think Monte realizes that balance was an issue in 3e.  If you remember, it was built on the roots of 2e and considering that fact it is a pretty impressive system.   I think though 5e will not be 3e redux.  Monte will hit a homerun when he has the goal in hand.  We as the playerbase must work to let our views be heard so that the right goals are achieved.

For me, I do not want "balance is the only good" to rule the day.  We've tried that and if you feel it is paramount then you have 4e.  I can't imagine getting any closer to balance than you'd get in 4e.  

If though you liked some things from all editions, desire balance, desire variety of mechanics, etc... then maybe 5e will appeal.  If we all ban 1/4 of the game and play the rest and thus buy the books, WOTC will be very happy.  I'd prefer the game be stronger too even if it means allowing some crazy Wink ideas into the game.
Sleepsintraffic,

You lost that argument too because you admitted that you should not (and do not) do it everytime.  If you are seriously suggesting that the 15 min workday which is a mechanical flaw can easily be solved by "good" DMing, then you have to impose or prevent resting EVERY TIME.  Since you don't, your argument is invalid.  See the Oberoni Fallacy.  In this case just because you might be able to prevent the problem occassionally does not mean there isn't a problem.


-Polaris  
First I think Monte is listening.  In my opinion Monte is one of the great game designers of the modern era.  The greatest living in my opinion now that Gary has died.




I've played Arcana Evolved as well as Iron Heroes, so I strongly disagree with this statement.  I respect Monte's writing and ideas, but as a game designer, I think that half of charop could probably do it better at least from a system design PoV.  In fact 2e (and all prior DnD editions) weren't actual systems at all.  3.X was the first attempt at a true DnD system.


-Polaris  
I hate to even get into this discussion but here goes... if the DM has a world where resting is never guaranteed (but often happens without mishap) the wizards will not frivolously fire off spells in unnecessary situations.  You don't have to even prevent the 15 minute workday every time.  If the group is riding through the country and encounter a wandering monster I don't care how they kill it.  Quick and easy is best.   

If it is not a problem in your game, then its been solved.  Also the Oberoni Fallacy says rule 0.  Rule 0 is not normal DM'ing.  It is changing a rule.  It is in fact a viable option but once done you are no longer talking about the original game you just changed it :-).  It would not mean the original game was good and I agree.   But expecting the DM to just play the monsters with a brain does not mean it's a rule 0 decision.  It's merely being a good DM.



 
Sleepsintraffic,

You lost that argument too because you admitted that you should not (and do not) do it everytime.  If you are seriously suggesting that the 15 min workday which is a mechanical flaw can easily be solved by "good" DMing, then you have to impose or prevent resting EVERY TIME.  Since you don't, your argument is invalid.  See the Oberoni Fallacy.  In this case just because you might be able to prevent the problem occassionally does not mean there isn't a problem.


-Polaris  



I also stated that if you aren't making the do more than one fight in a day then that one fight should take all of the power the group has to put it down.  Thus validating that they have only had one fight before resting because that fight almost killed them.
But expecting the DM to just play the monsters with a brain does not mean it's a rule 0 decision.  It's merely being a good DM.




It's not being a good DM if the monster genuinely doesn't have a brain (there are lots of dangerous monsters with Intelligences of 'nil').  Moreover, if you are doing it all the time. Then you are using DM fiat to hide a bad rule, and that IS rule zero and that IS subject to the Oberoni fallacy.


-Polaris  
Sleepsintraffic,

You lost that argument too because you admitted that you should not (and do not) do it everytime.  If you are seriously suggesting that the 15 min workday which is a mechanical flaw can easily be solved by "good" DMing, then you have to impose or prevent resting EVERY TIME.  Since you don't, your argument is invalid.  See the Oberoni Fallacy.  In this case just because you might be able to prevent the problem occassionally does not mean there isn't a problem.


-Polaris  



I also stated that if you aren't making the do more than one fight in a day then that one fight should take all of the power the group has to put it down.  Thus validating that they have only had one fight before resting because that fight almost killed them.



The point I am making is that unless you "twink/use the God-DM card" all the time then in fact you aren't actually solving the problem and your argument is prima faciae invalid.


-Polaris
But expecting the DM to just play the monsters with a brain does not mean it's a rule 0 decision.  It's merely being a good DM.




It's not being a good DM if the monster genuinely doesn't have a brain (there are lots of dangerous monsters with Intelligences of 'nil').  Moreover, if you are doing it all the time. Then you are using DM fiat to hide a bad rule, and that IS rule zero and that IS subject to the Oberoni fallacy.


-Polaris  



The threat of it happening any time is sufficient to keep my wizards from wasting their spells when they don't really need them.  

You don't have to alter normal monster reactions.  For a game to be fun it doesn't have to prevent a wizard getting an extra rest in once in a while.  He'll also be in situations where he goes a lot of encounters beyond the norm because he can't rest.  It all balances out in the end when you have a good DM playing the monsters correctly to their intelligence.

 
The threat of it happening any time is sufficient to keep my wizards from wasting their spells when they don't really need them.  




What threat?  You scout out a particular threat, teleport/planeshift in and then teleport/planeshift out (or go to your pocket dimension, pocket castle, whatever).  Except for the very lowest levels (which I think is what a lot of you remember) there isn't a good reliable way of stopping the 15 min work day except by DM fiat (no you can't teleport, planeshift, Magnificient Mansion, etc, etc) which while valid and acceptable once in a while do not solve the problem (unless you do it all the time in which case it's being a jerk/adversarial DM that's effectively changing the rules to cover a mechanical hole....at which point Oberoni applies).


-Polaris  
The threat of it happening any time is sufficient to keep my wizards from wasting their spells when they don't really need them.  




What threat?  You scout out a particular threat, teleport/planeshift in and then teleport/planeshift out (or go to your pocket dimension, pocket castle, whatever).  Except for the very lowest levels (which I think is what a lot of you remember) there isn't a good reliable way of stopping the 15 min work day except by DM fiat (no you can't teleport, planeshift, Magnificient Mansion, etc, etc) which while valid and acceptable once in a while do not solve the problem (unless you do it all the time in which case it's being a jerk/adversarial DM that's effectively changing the rules to cover a mechanical hole....at which point Oberoni applies).


-Polaris  




what don't you understand about there are always consequences to your actions.  I'm not going to tell you how to deal with ever contingency you can come up with.  I can come up with them as they arise in my games you can too.  Also there are means within the game world that don't involve changing or breaking any rules to accomplish what you want to do.  Also if the party figures out a loophole in the design and manages to do the teleport options like you say then yes they will have some time before the consequences arrive, but the consequences will arrive.  They with smart play figured out a way to make it so they could go into this obviously very important combat without having to run through a gauntlet first.  Good for them they get to have a 15 minute workday today. I don't consider it a problem because the players are being rewarded for smart play.  However they will have associated consquences to deal with later.  Due to the fact that anyone they try to do that to in the future will have dfenses in line against what they did before.  My big bad guys aren't regularly morons and can do research on the party as much as they can research the BBEG.  heres a fun hint: sometimes I do that on purpose.  And that fight that they just stumbled into way before I expected them to gets changed on the fly to be a bit harder so they actually feel the challenge of the one encounter day.  No rules change no Oberoni Fallacy just playing the game as intended.
The threat of it happening any time is sufficient to keep my wizards from wasting their spells when they don't really need them.  




What threat?  You scout out a particular threat, teleport/planeshift in and then teleport/planeshift out (or go to your pocket dimension, pocket castle, whatever).  Except for the very lowest levels (which I think is what a lot of you remember) there isn't a good reliable way of stopping the 15 min work day except by DM fiat (no you can't teleport, planeshift, Magnificient Mansion, etc, etc) which while valid and acceptable once in a while do not solve the problem (unless you do it all the time in which case it's being a jerk/adversarial DM that's effectively changing the rules to cover a mechanical hole....at which point Oberoni applies).


-Polaris  



Well the first true teleport spell arives at 11th level one time by himself for the wizard.   I agree by the time they reach 18th level which is near the endgame in for most groups the enemies themselves have a very good reach themselves.  By that time the martial characters are so loaded down with magic items that they are teleporting, flying, turning invisible, etc etc etc all by themselves.   I realize magic items are not innate powers but practically the shining aspect just doesn't come up.

Let's just agree to disagree.  For me I will vote any day for more balance but NOT if it ruins the fun of the game.  We can agree we don't agree on fun either but you hopefully at least understand that a game that is unfun for me is not one I want to play.   

While I really don't consider 3e a perfect game by ANY measure.  I've listed complaints elsewhere.  If I had two choices and couldn't change anything then I'd play 3e.  I'd like to keep the best though from all editions which I hope 5e does.

 
The threat of it happening any time is sufficient to keep my wizards from wasting their spells when they don't really need them.  




What threat?  You scout out a particular threat, teleport/planeshift in and then teleport/planeshift out (or go to your pocket dimension, pocket castle, whatever).  Except for the very lowest levels (which I think is what a lot of you remember) there isn't a good reliable way of stopping the 15 min work day except by DM fiat (no you can't teleport, planeshift, Magnificient Mansion, etc, etc) which while valid and acceptable once in a while do not solve the problem (unless you do it all the time in which case it's being a jerk/adversarial DM that's effectively changing the rules to cover a mechanical hole....at which point Oberoni applies).


-Polaris  




what don't you understand about there are always consequences to your actions.  I'm not going to tell you how to deal with ever contingency you can come up with.  I can come up with them as they arise in my games you can too.  Also there are means within the game world that don't involve changing or breaking any rules to accomplish what you want to do.  Also if the party figures out a loophole in the design and manages to do the teleport options like you say then yes they will have some time before the consequences arrive, but the consequences will arrive.  They with smart play figured out a way to make it so they could go into this obviously very important combat without having to run through a gauntlet first.  Good for them they get to have a 15 minute workday today. I don't consider it a problem because the players are being rewarded for smart play.  However they will have associated consquences to deal with later.  Due to the fact that anyone they try to do that to in the future will have dfenses in line against what they did before.  My big bad guys aren't regularly morons and can do research on the party as much as they can research the BBEG.  heres a fun hint: sometimes I do that on purpose.  And that fight that they just stumbled into way before I expected them to gets changed on the fly to be a bit harder so they actually feel the challenge of the one encounter day.  No rules change no Oberoni Fallacy just playing the game as intended.

Due to the fact that anyone they try to do that to in the future will have dfenses in line against what they did before.


Who says?  In many cases, there won't be any reasonable way for monsters to get the intelligence that the players even DID this (especially if the players leave no survivors which is the typical case reaslly).  If the monsters couldn't reasonably know how they did it, then you are cheating as a DM.  Also if you are telepathically transmitting knowledge from one group of monsters to another in order to specifically thwart what you think is an unfair exploit, then you as a DM are cheating.

My big bad guys aren't regularly morons and can do research on the party as much as they can research the BBEG.
  

Not reliabley.  In fact you CAN'T scry into a non-dimensional space usually, and then there is non-detection and other abilities that thwart this.



In short, you are using your club as a DM to thward a bad mechanic and that's bad, bad bad.


-Polaris      
The threat of it happening any time is sufficient to keep my wizards from wasting their spells when they don't really need them.  




What threat?  You scout out a particular threat, teleport/planeshift in and then teleport/planeshift out (or go to your pocket dimension, pocket castle, whatever).  Except for the very lowest levels (which I think is what a lot of you remember) there isn't a good reliable way of stopping the 15 min work day except by DM fiat (no you can't teleport, planeshift, Magnificient Mansion, etc, etc) which while valid and acceptable once in a while do not solve the problem (unless you do it all the time in which case it's being a jerk/adversarial DM that's effectively changing the rules to cover a mechanical hole....at which point Oberoni applies).


-Polaris  




what don't you understand about there are always consequences to your actions.  I'm not going to tell you how to deal with ever contingency you can come up with.  I can come up with them as they arise in my games you can too.  Also there are means within the game world that don't involve changing or breaking any rules to accomplish what you want to do.  Also if the party figures out a loophole in the design and manages to do the teleport options like you say then yes they will have some time before the consequences arrive, but the consequences will arrive.  They with smart play figured out a way to make it so they could go into this obviously very important combat without having to run through a gauntlet first.  Good for them they get to have a 15 minute workday today. I don't consider it a problem because the players are being rewarded for smart play.  However they will have associated consquences to deal with later.  Due to the fact that anyone they try to do that to in the future will have dfenses in line against what they did before.  My big bad guys aren't regularly morons and can do research on the party as much as they can research the BBEG.  heres a fun hint: sometimes I do that on purpose.  And that fight that they just stumbled into way before I expected them to gets changed on the fly to be a bit harder so they actually feel the challenge of the one encounter day.  No rules change no Oberoni Fallacy just playing the game as intended.

Due to the fact that anyone they try to do that to in the future will have dfenses in line against what they did before.


Who says?  In many cases, there won't be any reasonable way for monsters to get the intelligence that the players even DID this (especially if the players leave no survivors which is the typical case reaslly).  If the monsters couldn't reasonably know how they did it, then you are cheating as a DM.  Also if you are telepathically transmitting knowledge from one group of monsters to another in order to specifically thwart what you think is an unfair exploit, then you as a DM are cheating.

My big bad guys aren't regularly morons and can do research on the party as much as they can research the BBEG.
  

Not reliabley.  In fact you CAN'T scry into a non-dimensional space usually, and then there is non-detection and other abilities that thwart this.



In short, you are using your club as a DM to thward a bad mechanic and that's bad, bad bad.


-Polaris      



so i think i figured out your problem here you keep thinking i ever mean that the enemies they are facing are unintelligent past 5th level.  At that point the unintelligent monsters are minions to intelligent beings the BBEG is a guy with an int score more than likely better than anyone in the party.  Unless that was specific request from one of my players to be playing a guy that wins by outhinking his opponents, and even then that means hes as intelligent as the smartest member of the party.  Also stories spread when you just ghost in and heroically kill the BBEG using teleports.  Then the next BBEG in line does research and possibly gathers some info on how you beat the last guy and says hey I'm not going to let that happen to me.  No magical scrying needed just story telling.
Sleepsintraffic,


I will tell you by annecdoate the type of "DM Cheating" I think you are advocating and why it's a bad thing.  It was many years ago and we were playing in the "Red Hand of Doom" modules/adventures.  Most of the party could easily be invisible and so (unsuprisingly) we mostly were.  Now by the time we got to the final boss, he and his minions had all sorts of anti-invisibility devices (at least one of which was not book legal) and I had no issue with that.  The boss clearly did his homework and knew us.


However, we had a random encounter with a Drow Patrol on the way there, and they clearly (it was a random encounter remember) had no way to know who we were or that they would be encounting us, but they also were stuffed to the brim with anti-invisibility magic even at the expense of more usual combat magic.


This is clearly foul play, and frankly it's this sort of play that you seem to be advocating.  If the DM is using DM knowledge because he doesn't like a perfectly legal (by the RAW) player practice and does it all the time without justification, THEN THIS IS CHEATING and Oberoni applies.


-Polaris         
I'm not sure why it is that DMs have such a hard time getting their groups to avoid the 15 minute workday.  It's not even a matter of punishing them for using rope trick.  Their adversaries don't need to know where they are, or what they're hiding in.  What needs to happen is that the party's enemies continue to act during the 24 hours of time the party is hiding in order to get their trigger-finger wizard his spells back.

Unless we're talking about random encounters in a wilderness area, 24 hours of no party progress should further the plot along at a huge advantage to the enemy.  D&D isn't a static game world.  Things should be happening while the characters sit and twiddle their thumbs.  Even with just 8 hours of time, the bad guys can have finished whatever they're doing, headed out of the dungeon, crypt, ruins, castle, etc and be off doing all kinds of evil elsewhere, and the characters hop out of their rope trick and wonder where everyone else went.

Plot should be the biggest motivator to keep the party moving forward.  Create a plot so thin and bereft of drama that something like popping into an extradimensional space for 8+ hours just 15 minutes after popping out of your 8+ hour coma, and I'll show you a game so boring I won't be returning for a second session.
Sleepsintraffic,


I will tell you by annecdoate the type of "DM Cheating" I think you are advocating and why it's a bad thing.  It was many years ago and we were playing in the "Red Hand of Doom" modules/adventures.  Most of the party could easily be invisible and so (unsuprisingly) we mostly were.  Now by the time we got to the final boss, he and his minions had all sorts of anti-invisibility devices (at least one of which was not book legal) and I had no issue with that.  The boss clearly did his homework and knew us.


However, we had a random encounter with a Drow Patrol on the way there, and they clearly (it was a random encounter remember) had no way to know who we were or that they would be encounting us, but they also were stuffed to the brim with anti-invisibility magic even at the expense of more usual combat magic.


This is clearly foul play, and frankly it's this sort of play that you seem to be advocating.  If the DM is using DM knowledge because he doesn't like a perfectly legal (by the RAW) player practice and does it all the time without justification, THEN THIS IS CHEATING and Oberoni applies.


-Polaris         



yet again...no polaris.  I have quite regularly stated that this isn't something I do nor do I advocate doing that.  I hardly if ever use random encounters and if I do roll one that I know the party will just roll over I will let them roll over it (I know no person that actually uses experience as a means of leveling so number of fights doesn't matter).  Either I cinematic it out for them or I let them have some fun and cinematic their way through it.  But if it is someone that the BBEG has employed knowing full well that your coming and what your capabilities have included then that is totally cool and should be done by any decently leveled enemy.
I'm not sure why it is that DMs have such a hard time getting their groups to avoid the 15 minute workday.  It's not even a matter of punishing them for using rope trick.  Their adversaries don't need to know where they are, or what they're hiding in.  What needs to happen is that the party's enemies continue to act during the 24 hours of time the party is hiding in order to get their trigger-finger wizard his spells back.

Unless we're talking about random encounters in a wilderness area, 24 hours of no party progress should further the plot along at a huge advantage to the enemy.  D&D isn't a static game world.  Things should be happening while the characters sit and twiddle their thumbs.  Even with just 8 hours of time, the bad guys can have finished whatever they're doing, headed out of the dungeon, crypt, ruins, castle, etc and be off doing all kinds of evil elsewhere, and the characters hop out of their rope trick and wonder where everyone else went.

Plot should be the biggest motivator to keep the party moving forward.  Create a plot so thin and bereft of drama that something like popping into an extradimensional space for 8+ hours just 15 minutes after popping out of your 8+ hour coma, and I'll show you a game so boring I won't be returning for a second session.




This is also a valid strategy for solving the problem with no use of the Oberoni fallacy.  Like I have said actions always have consequences even if they are not felt immediately. 
I'm not sure why it is that DMs have such a hard time getting their groups to avoid the 15 minute workday.  It's not even a matter of punishing them for using rope trick.  Their adversaries don't need to know where they are, or what they're hiding in.  What needs to happen is that the party's enemies continue to act during the 24 hours of time the party is hiding in order to get their trigger-finger wizard his spells back.

Unless we're talking about random encounters in a wilderness area, 24 hours of no party progress should further the plot along at a huge advantage to the enemy.  D&D isn't a static game world.  Things should be happening while the characters sit and twiddle their thumbs.  Even with just 8 hours of time, the bad guys can have finished whatever they're doing, headed out of the dungeon, crypt, ruins, castle, etc and be off doing all kinds of evil elsewhere, and the characters hop out of their rope trick and wonder where everyone else went.

Plot should be the biggest motivator to keep the party moving forward.  Create a plot so thin and bereft of drama that something like popping into an extradimensional space for 8+ hours just 15 minutes after popping out of your 8+ hour coma, and I'll show you a game so boring I won't be returning for a second session.



This might be fine occassionally but to suggest that every single adventure and every single plot is so time sensitive that the player characters can not take their time is exceedingly contrived and does at least suggest a violation of the Oberoni principle.  If you are using DM "plot device" to fix a mechanical problem (and this would have to be done ALL the time or you aren't fixing the problem), then it's bad design and you as a DM are cheating.  Simple as that.


-Polaris
I am not suggesting that the plot always flies by at such a swift pace that the characters never have a chance to breath, but I am specifically saying that a party that acts for only 1% of each day (15 minutes) should be completely left in the dust in all but the most rare of circumstances.  There is a very large difference between taking your time and partaking in the 15 minute workday.

I can really only think of a few situations that such a slow pace could be realistically acceptable.  Maybe if the group only ever explored long forgotten dungeons, that only they know about, and are filled with mindless undead that have no agenda.  Maybe then could I see any realism in a group that accomplishes their goals with 15 minutes of work per day and somehow come home and claim to be heroes.

From my perspective, there is no mechanical problem.  The rules are very clear to me that a spellcaster's spell alotment are intended to last them an entire adventuring day, and any use of extra sleep, holing up, etc is just as much of an exploit as combining rules that weren't intended to be combined to create a brokenly powerful combo. When a player tries to break the game, it is the DM's responsibility to the other players in the game to say No.
I'd also like to mention that it's not that you always create situations where the players cause complications by taking longer rests.  It's important that players know there can be complications if they decide to take an extra long rest when they're beaten and low on resources.  This allows them to make the decision which is the better risk, time or resources. 

Once players get out of their routine of 15 minute work days, they'll start to manage their resources better, and make their own decisions whether it's worth stopping early or not. 
Personally I like to houserule that daily spells/powers and the like aren't actually "daily", they are instead tied to a karmic energy fueled by accomplishments such as engaging in combat, overcoming obstacles toward an important goal and other heroic deeds. Daily abilities are fueled by the energy gained from releasing the karmic tension built up prior to and during dramatic moments, not by sleeping or tavern hopping. In game terms this means players can't take extended rests voluntarily, instead the DM can grant extended rests at appropriate points in the adventure, such as between dungeons or when the party gains an level. If desired the DM, in 4e terms, can also allow the party to recover some healing surges or hit points or a daily power every milestone so the party at least feels a sense of additional relief for their accomplishments mid-adventure. Either way, though, the full extended rest is something that becomes tied to the adventure and story, not the artificial 24 hours clock of the game world.

To me this more abstract approach addresses a lot of the issues of the "five minute workday", as well as being a system that is more predictable for the DM to plan around and a way to reward players for pacing their resources and reaching important milestones and checkpoints along the way. By unshackling extended rests from the 24 hour and 8 hour cycles in 3e and 4e you bring resting more in line with what really matters: the adventure at hand.

Of course I'm something of an abstractionist so this works for me, I can't speak for anyone else, but I think it's a reasonable, practical and fair system.
A single encounter that taxed nearly 100% of the parties resources really isn't a problem.  Problems occur when the party is using unnecessary amounts of resources to trivialize the encounter and resting to regain what they shouldn't have spent in the first place.  Or due to mechanical problems certain characters are capable of trivializing basically any encounter by using most of, or their most potent resources making 'epic' combats in fact the most boring ones due to these showstopper spells/abilities.

If you can actually write enounters that are knock down, drag out brawls that come out near defeats for the party and require them to rest then that's actually good.  That's not what the 15/5-minute workday is describing though.

I don't really see a mechanical solution to solving the issue though.  The only thing that really comes to mind would be to hand out 'Action Point' type bonuses that accumulate per encounter, or for other specific conditions but go away during an extended rest, which would put the party at odds with the nova'ing offender because they never got to use their abilities that relied on accumulated 'points'.  Or perhaps the best nova'ing could only occur after accumulating some points in an earlier combat.  Some of your resources dwindle as the adventure 'day' goes on, but you gain a countervailing resource that potentially makes late-adventure encounters unique.

Personally, I've rarely had an issue with a party taking multiple extended rests though.  I think it takes a certain kind of player; an overly gamist/munchkin approach to a situation that just isn't going to crop up in every gaming group, so opinions on it are going to vary wildly.  I mean I have gamist players, but mine play against themselves as much as they do against the challenges I present in not deliberately munchkining and exploiting mechanical loopholes like the 5-minute workday.  

"I won that adventure, and in hard-mode." 


Personally I think 4e is probably the best edition of D&D overall. It's not perfect, I think combat is a bit too long for example and something about the skill system and skill challenges doesn't quite work for me, but by and large I prefer it to 3e. Heck, parts of 3e make me cringe when they come up, like the 3e grapple and sunder rules (yuck!).  

But that being said I think it's really premature to accuse Monte or anybody else on the design team of nixing 4e altogether or whatever. Look, the designers, including Monte, aren't idiots. They know what parts of 4e work relatively well, what parts are popular, and what parts are questionable. For instance most people would agree that 4e monsters all having unique abilities is pretty sweet, so they're probably going to keep that sort of monster uniqueness in 5e. Likewise they've already said multiple times that one of their goals is to allow people who like 4e style characters to play alongside people who like 3e style characters all at the same gaming table. And the ability and skill system ideas they've talked about sound like they have very little to do with either 3e or 4e, they sound like a completely different animal.

So even though I'm sure Monte has a soft spot for 3e since he helped create it he and the other designers aren't just going to make "D&D version 3.75". 5e is almost certainly going to be a hybrid system with popular parts of 4e, popular parts of 3e, and maybe some other stuff from older editions or new ideas like the new skill system thrown in too.

Call me an optimist, but that's my current predicition. 
Saga's system of free flowing magic was actually quite effective once you got the power-criticals of having a high 'edge' stat in play, but could be deceptively weaker than they needed to be. I wouldn't mind seeing a rehashed saga system for magic, so people could shape magic, then perhaps nail it down for more efficiency and power and you get spells, then refine them to the potent things we call vancian. In each step the spell level probably jumps 50-100%, such as what Vancian terms a 3rd level level spell being the standard power scale for a high level Saga wizard effect, a 6th level Vancian being one of the 4e encounter spells, and a 9th level spell being memorized and forgotten, but pulling off the uberdoom of old school Meteor Swarm - the spell that Final Fantasy "Meteo" was based on..
Options are Liberating
Saga's system of free flowing magic was actually quite effective once you got the power-criticals of having a high 'edge' stat in play, but could be deceptively weaker than they needed to be. I wouldn't mind seeing a rehashed saga system for magic, so people could shape magic, then perhaps nail it down for more efficiency and power and you get spells, then refine them to the potent things we call vancian. In each step the spell level probably jumps 50-100%, such as what Vancian terms a 3rd level level spell being the standard power scale for a high level Saga wizard effect, a 6th level Vancian being one of the 4e encounter spells, and a 9th level spell being memorized and forgotten, but pulling off the uberdoom of old school Meteor Swarm - the spell that Final Fantasy "Meteo" was based on..



Saga system looked pretty neat but unfortunately I think the odds of that system making a comeback are virtually nil. Frown But yeah, I thought the open magic idea was good (White Wolf's Mage uses a similar system) and I liked the card game aspect of it too. Just never caught on, though.
I'm not sure why it is that DMs have such a hard time getting their groups to avoid the 15 minute workday.  It's not even a matter of punishing them for using rope trick.  Their adversaries don't need to know where they are, or what they're hiding in.  What needs to happen is that the party's enemies continue to act during the 24 hours of time the party is hiding in order to get their trigger-finger wizard his spells back.

Unless we're talking about random encounters in a wilderness area, 24 hours of no party progress should further the plot along at a huge advantage to the enemy.  D&D isn't a static game world.  Things should be happening while the characters sit and twiddle their thumbs.  Even with just 8 hours of time, the bad guys can have finished whatever they're doing, headed out of the dungeon, crypt, ruins, castle, etc and be off doing all kinds of evil elsewhere, and the characters hop out of their rope trick and wonder where everyone else went.

Plot should be the biggest motivator to keep the party moving forward.  Create a plot so thin and bereft of drama that something like popping into an extradimensional space for 8+ hours just 15 minutes after popping out of your 8+ hour coma, and I'll show you a game so boring I won't be returning for a second session.



This.

  



Yeah, this. Exactly this. You see, all the talk of adversarial DM and anti-5MW tactics, scrying, anti-invisibility spells and all that is distracting us from the real issue. And the real issue is exactly this.

The 5MW forces you to shape your adventure around a mechanic - daily recharge mechanisms - and modify your plot in such a way that forces your characters to press on. In short, it limits your possibilities as a DM to create stories. It "shapes the metagame", if you want, in that it shapes the potential games you can run, effectively negating possibilities.

This is why I hate it. 
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
Sorry you've had issues, but we never have. Never experienced a 'work day' issue, never had balance issues, never had fun issues. We loved every second of basic, 1st, and 2nd edition play, and most of 3rd edition even (though to a lesser degree).

I'm not claiming you (or anyone else) never had issues, only reminding you that they're YOUR issues, not innate in the system since others have had entirely different experiences. That means it's a subjective perception, not an objective one. An objective one is 'some people have trouble with it and don't like it, others have no trouble with it and do like it'.

You can claim that others have had the same issues you've had, suggesting it's mechanical, and I'll show you that others haven't had the issues just like me, suggesting it's subjective again. In the end, there's no 'winning' here, only offering our personal preferences and experiences.

Mine have generally been, the older the edition, the better it was. There is no such thing as balance issues, there is no such thing as a vancian issue, there is no 'work day', there is only the fun of roleplaying. Again, to us.




I've already posted this once, but here it goes:

I envy you. Really, I do. You didn't have issues and had tons of fun with the system? Awesome. That's really cool. But you see, the issues are still there. They can be encountered or not, and you're lucky you didn't encounter them, but they are still there. In the rules. The issues can happen. It's not that they always will, it's even possible that some groups won't have such issues in any occasion. Cool for them, they (you) are lucky, and I envy you for this.

But I do not want, nor will accept, a game system that works only for a lucky few. Life may not be fair, but my gaming shall be. I want a game that works for everybody, not just for those who are lucky enough to be spared by the mechanical problems of the system.
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
Why Monte Cook?  Because like it or not his books have been some of the best selling of all time.  If there's anyone to bring into the construction of a new edition it's Monte.  Hopefully other heads in the project can balance him out.
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