Darth Vader... really so strong? ***SPOILER WARNING***

Greetings to everyone!

Since a few days, I have a few discussions about Vader's powers with a friend.

We knoe that, yes, hes is REALLY strong, but, above a level 18-20 as so many editions say?

Due to my localization, I haven't read all books and novels about Vader and his adventures but, I readed a few things via internet (Wookiepedia and similar) and a few comics and books.

Also I played a few videogames (I use to say that videogames aren't the best references cuz they use to be "WHOAAAA!") like Force Unleashed II.

Not sure if Starkiller (Galen Marek or his clone) is some kind of "Force Super Avatar" or something similar but, always use to win Vader and even he remains enough strengh to face the Emperor.

I know that Vader killed a lot of Jedis by himself (also so much times helped with troopers), but, where those Jedis enough level to say Vader its level 18-20?

I laso would like to know if the Force its so strong as sometimes is told. There are a lot of scenes that characters don't use the Force in concrete situations.

Probably a ethics reason, but, also exist the probability that Powers hasn't been properly "focused" or canonized. I know that Over-Powered sith lords can destroy entire planets with dark side and blah blah blah, but, I still have my doubts.

By the way, I prefer to focus on Vader in this thread. That its a great duelist, yes, that his Force powers are awesome, of course, but, enough to say that he is a almost max level 18-20? To kill a level 7-12 Jedi, a level 15-16 (example) sith lord, would be enough.

Thanks and any idea is, as always, really wellcome ;)

Take care! 
Have you ever tried to smile?
57690938 wrote:
If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox". Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
Your biggest mistake is taking TFU 1 & TFU 2 serious in any possible way. Really, they're bad games with an even worse story! ;-P
Probably... you are right XD

Sometimes its difficult to get the difference between "official" and "canonical". Like in Kaiburr Crystal. I think that the first novelization told that the Force emerged from Kaiburr Krystal, some kind of "sacred stone".

Actually its "only" a stone that have all the knowledge about all the Force-Sensitive children... the first one, was official but not canonical, probably. 

By the way, and using other references, do you personally consider that Vader is so strong as they told us?

I would like to know, if its possible please, your vision about the diference between official and canonical.

Thank you so much! 
Have you ever tried to smile?
57690938 wrote:
If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox". Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
And one more. In movies, we only saw him fighting with a low level Jedi's or with Skywalker. Or in movies and in a few books.

Based on wookie info, he confronted a few Jedi Masters and other ones, but in movies we don't see a super-combative Vader (maybe father remorses against Luke?)
Have you ever tried to smile?
57690938 wrote:
If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox". Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
What level was Vader in the OCR/RCR?  The SECR only lists him at 19th-level although it does give him incredible ability scores even if you consider some of them to come from completed Destinies.  In the context of the game which has 20 as the maximum level that seems like is should be right.  The problem to me is that too many people think about there characters as 20th level characters when I think that the "natural" character progression is really going to slow down once 10th-level is hit and come to a crawl after 15th or so.

An issue with Vader, and many other characters, is that they are described as doing so many different things and all of those "things" seem to get some special rule at some point.  Then the problem is that if you want any character to have all of those special things they NEED to have a huge number of levels just to fit them in.  Perhaps a little houseruling to allow certain things (such as Severing Strike without the talent) at a slightly higher difficulty and creative descriptions can help reduce the list of "must haves" for a character but for some popular characters that still leaves too many things for them to do.

If I use a character like Vader in my game I may actually write up a few different stat blocks, all of the same level, that focus on different aspects of the character that you hear about.  When it's time to use him you pick out the one that is most approriate for the situation to use and figure this is the "truth" you are seperating from the "fiction" you may have read about.
   
I agree with you.

Long time ago we made and M&M adaptation to Saga system, supressing levels and classes that made character creation a bit "weird".

Like a lot of talents and feats that requires to have a high level as you said, a lot of characters probably need a high level to pick up a concrete talent/feat due to class/level system. 

Do you have any personal version of an important character (Vader or other one will do) that you adapted it to your own "truth" or point of view?

Thank you! 
Have you ever tried to smile?
57690938 wrote:
If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox". Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
Maybe I should qualify things but when I say "high level" I'm actually talking about a high heroic level; a character that is over CL 10 is starting to become "high level" but I don't consider my NH8/Soldier1/EliteTrooper1 mooks to be "high level" as they are just CL 4 despite have ten levels.  When it comes to crafting NPCs I'll often make use of non-heroic levels to reach certain things.

I can't say that I have any version of an important character that I would use above all else.  The honest truth is that I'd even switch versions of a character used at different times in a campaign if I could justifiably use two different characters instead.  This means that you may fly with/against the "Pilot Vader" at one point during a campaign but later on you may encounter a "Leader Vader" or "Beatdown Vader" when I could just be using a completely different NPC instead.  When making multiple versions of the same character I try to keep many things consistent among all the versions but just change the details to fit the encounter better.

If you've ever noticed my character assistance I often leave lots of blanks when writing out a build.  For a character with multiple versions the skeleton will be the same but what goes in the blanks will change.  My versions of Darth Vader will all share certain skills, feats, classes and talents but other details will change.

I don't think there is any one "right" version for a given character.  Just look at the various entries in the "You make the character" contest threads to see how the same character can be viewed several ways.
   
I like that idea. Because those event use to be more cinematic than else.

And its funny because it remembers to me the SW Trading Card Game where do you have multiple versions of each character XD 
Have you ever tried to smile?
57690938 wrote:
If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox". Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
When it comes to different versions of the same character I just look at the miniature's skirmish game as an example.  I think there are about a dozen Darth Vaders that all have the classic armored appearance and while they normally have similiar defense, attack, damage, and even hitpoints (the basic stats) the abilities that go with each of them can vary a lot.
Sometimes its difficult to get the difference between "official" and "canonical". Like in Kaiburr Crystal. I think that the first novelization told that the Force emerged from Kaiburr Krystal, some kind of "sacred stone".

Actually its "only" a stone that have all the knowledge about all the Force-Sensitive children... the first one, was official but not canonical, probably.

Actually, they are both right/ canonical in their respective areas.

The Kaiburr crystal is found, IIRC, in the novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye and the Knights of the Old Republic games and it is a powerful Force artefact that can enhance the Force abilities of those that wield it.

The Kyber crystal is found in The Clone Wars (CG Series) and it does contain 'all' the names of the galaxies Force Sensitive children.


It's confusing because they are both pronounced the same, but they are spelt differently and are two different artefacts.


Going with one of StevenO's comments, I just pretend that Severing Strike doesn't exist - the Fatal Hit feat does the same job for all weapons and doesn't require a rare prestige class talent slot to get either (I know Severing Strike does other things...).


I think Darth Vader being at level 19 is correct. Level doesn't always equal power. I can make a level 19 Noble, but he won't have nearly as much power as Darth Vader.

The thing with Vader is that he's not just a Sith Lord. He was an expert mechanic and Ace Pilot. He was a Jedi General and Commander. He was a Sith Apprentice and Jedi Hunter. To reflect all of these things, you need levels. Also, accomplishing many courageous deeds and vanquishing foes will get you tons of XP in Saga. So he'll be accumulating XP fairly constantly, which leads to high levels.

Also, it doesn't need to be mentioned, but Darth Vader is the face of Star Wars. He is the epitome of every villain. As such, I have no problem with the iconic villain being level 19, or even level 20.



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You don't have to be all-powerful to fufill a destiny.  In fact, all that really mattered in the end was that Darth Vader caught the Emporer by surprise and pitched him into a reactor core.  The prophecy said there would be one that would bring balance to the Force.  I have not heard or read any elaboration past that point.  Did the prophecies also say that the destined person would be unequalled in the mastery of the Force?

I like what they did in the Revised Core Rulebooks and gave the Skywalker family and extra 3 levels when accessing Force points.  It gave them a larger font to source from, without making their physical bodies all-powerful.  Alternatively, maybe allowing them to use all Force skill untrained or giving a flat bonus to Force skills would have been the way to go.

In a New Hope, I believe Obi Wan could have taken Vader in that fight.  He chose a different path, but he wasn't exactly struggling to duel.  In the "earlier" movies, Anakin was getting his body parts handed to him left and right.  Just because he has the best connection to the Force, doesn't mean the instrument is honed enough to use it.  I guess that can represent levels for him.

So, I think level 19 is fair enough to represent his final incarnation as Darth Vader.  After being a Jedi and then a Sith for several decades, you should be at the top of your game.

Did the prophecies also say that the destined person would be unequalled in the mastery of the Force?

I don’t know if it was in the prophecy, but unequalled mastery of the Force is implied with his midi-chlorians being “off the scale.” Although what that means exactly is up to interpretation, I suppose.


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So, I think level 19 is fair enough to represent his final incarnation as Darth Vader.  After being a Jedi and then a Sith for several decades, you should be at the top of your game.



I'd agree here. The level 19 Vader is really Vader as we see him at his peak of power. Sometime around ESB and ROTJ. He's a skilled, perhaps the most skilled, personal combatant in the galaxy at the time, he has a mastery of the Force that is only overshadowed by Yoda and the Emperor (maybe Obi-Wan circa ANH).

Vader could reasonably be built at level 10 or 15 without too much effort depending on how you want to do things, but the idea with the Saga rules seems to be level 19 is the natural progression of a character that started as a level 1 scout. I'm not sure if this is best way to do things, but the character at level 19 certain works for me.
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