The Cheesesassin

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The cheese series warmly welcomes its latest addition: the Cheesesassin.

Combining generous amounts of Charge and Stealthcheese (and later Frostcheese), the Cheesesassin hits hard without allowing itself to be hit. At all.



PDF (L12, WBL): dl.dropbox.com/u/713896/Cheesesassin.pdf

PDF (L16, WBL): dl.dropbox.com/u/713896/Cheesesassin%20-%20L16.pdf

L12 CB Summary:
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======

The Cheessassin, level 12
Drow, Rogue|Executioner, Guild Executioner
Fey Beast Tamer Starting Feature: Fey Beast Tamer Companion (Young Owlbear)
Guild Attacks (Hybrid): Way of the Ninja (Hybrid)
Hybrid Executioner: Hybrid Executioner Will
Hybrid Talent: Rogue Tactics (Hybrid)
Rogue Tactics (Hybrid): Cunning Sneak (Hybrid)
Hybrid Poison Use 5: Carrion Crawler Brain Juice Recipe
Hybrid Poison Use 9: Nitharit Poison Recipe
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign, Occupation - Bounty Hunter (+2 to Stealth)


FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 16, Dex 23, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 16.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 13.



AC: 26 Fort: 21 Reflex: 25 Will: 22
HP: 82 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 20


TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +23, Athletics +10, Perception +11, Acrobatics +17, Intimidate +16


UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +9, Heal +6, History +6, Insight +6, Nature +6, Religion +6, Streetwise +9, Thievery +12


FEATS
Level 1: Student of Malediction
Level 2: Cursed Shadow
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Surprising Charge
Level 8: Arcane Familiar (Disembodied Hand)
Level 10: Risky Shift
Level 11: Light Blade Expertise
Level 12: Deft Blade


POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Gloaming Cut
Lolthtouched: Cloud of Darkness
Way of the Ninja (Hybrid): Ninja-to Rush
Way of the Ninja (Hybrid): Poisonous Shuriken
Hybrid encounter 1: Assassin's Strike (Hybrid)
Hybrid daily 1: Duelist's Prowess
Hybrid utility 2: Smoke Bomb
Hybrid encounter 3: Low Slash
Hybrid daily 5: Hybrid Poison Use 5
Hybrid utility 6: Vanish from View
Hybrid daily 9: Hybrid Poison Use 9
Hybrid utility 10: Persistent Tail


ITEMS
Carrion Crawler Brain Juice (heroic tier), Boots of Adept Charging (heroic tier), Horned Helm (heroic tier), Rain of Hammers Ki Focus +1, Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier), Blending Leather Armor +2, Camouflaged Clothing, Footpads, Accurate staff of the Traveler +1, Nitharit Poison (heroic tier), Vanguard Rapier +3, Sehanine's Mark of the Dark Moon (level 3), Bracers of Mighty Striking (paragon tier), Periapt of Cascading Health +2, Demonskin Tattoo (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Shuriken (5), Power Jewel (heroic tier) (2), Prison of Salzacas (heroic tier), Rubicant Blade +2
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


L16 CB Summary:

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
The Cheesesassin, level 16
Drow, Rogue|Executioner, Guild Executioner
Fey Beast Tamer Starting Feature: Fey Beast Tamer Companion (Young Owlbear)
Guild Attacks (Hybrid): Way of the Ninja (Hybrid)
Hybrid Executioner: Hybrid Executioner Will
Hybrid Talent: Rogue Tactics (Hybrid)
Rogue Tactics (Hybrid): Cunning Sneak (Hybrid)
Hybrid Poison Use 5: Carrion Crawler Brain Juice Recipe
Hybrid Poison Use 9: Nitharit Poison Recipe
Hybrid Poison Use 15: Black Lotus Recipe
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign, Occupation - Bounty Hunter (+2 to Stealth)


FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 17, Dex 24, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 16.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 13.



AC: 28 Fort: 21 Reflex: 26 Will: 22
HP: 103 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 25


TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +24, Athletics +12, Perception +13, Acrobatics +20, Intimidate +18


UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +8, Bluff +11, Diplomacy +11, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +11, Heal +8, History +8, Insight +8, Nature +8, Religion +8, Streetwise +11, Thievery +15


FEATS
Level 1: Student of Malediction
Level 2: Cursed Shadow
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Surprising Charge
Level 8: Improved Cunning Sneak
Level 10: Risky Shift
Level 11: Light Blade Expertise
Level 12: Deft Blade
Level 14: Silvery Glow
Level 16: Lasting Frost


POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Gloaming Cut
Lolthtouched: Cloud of Darkness
Way of the Ninja (Hybrid): Ninja-to Rush
Way of the Ninja (Hybrid): Poisonous Shuriken
Hybrid encounter 1: Assassin's Strike (Hybrid)
Hybrid daily 1: Duelist's Prowess
Hybrid utility 2: Smoke Bomb
Hybrid encounter 3: Low Slash
Hybrid daily 5: Hybrid Poison Use 5
Hybrid utility 6: Vanish from View
Hybrid encounter 7: Snap Shot
Hybrid daily 9: Hybrid Poison Use 9
Hybrid utility 10: Persistent Tail
Hybrid daily 15: Hybrid Poison Use 15 (replaces Duelist's Prowess)
Hybrid utility 16: Reflexive Dodge


ITEMS
Carrion Crawler Brain Juice (heroic tier), Boots of Adept Charging (heroic tier), Rain of Hammers Ki Focus +1, Camouflaged Clothing, Footpads, Nitharit Poison (heroic tier), Sehanine's Mark of the Dark Moon (level 3), Bracers of Mighty Striking (paragon tier), Adventurer's Kit, Shuriken (5), Frost Rapier +3, Shadowdancer's Gloves (paragon tier), Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier), Horned Helm (paragon tier), Black Lotus Extract (paragon tier), Leather Armor of the Charging Wind +1, Pitted Flowstone (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Please note that the Revenant is best for the Cheesesassin at later levels so it can also exploit the standard lame/broken Revenantcheese to become truly unkillable.

Since the advent of the Pixie, this is probably the best race for the Cheesesassin overall until you get at-will flight (i.e. Epic probably).


Suggestions for improvement are welcome.


 
Highlights of the Cheesesassin (so far built up to level 16 with standard WBL):

Almost permanent hidden status, requiring enemies to guess your position. On a correct guess, you take only half damage, or no damage on a miss:


  • Move action to move 3+ squares, gaining concealment until end of next turn (Shadow Walk) and making a Stealth check to hide (Hybrid Cunning Sneak) OR use Persistent Tail to move your speed as an immediate reaction after the next two steps: 

  • Charge enemy while hidden with CA; have your Owlbear move beside the target simultaneously (or summon as a minor before the charge). This will give you concealment via Shadow Walk if you don't already have it.

  • Teleport 3 squares (Shift 2 squares + turn the shift into a teleport with Staff of Traveller off-hand and teleport 1 extra square with a teleport booster of choice; Rubicant Blade/Arcane Wisp for example) and Stealth again via Cunning Sneak + Boots of Adept Charging + Risky Shift + Teleport Booster.

  • If you used Persistent Tail, you can key its trigger to the target or to an ally that acts right after you, allowing you to move your speed while Stealthed, forcing enemies to guess your square in a huge range.

  • Half damage while hidden/have superior concealment due to Sehanine's Mark of the Dark Moon

  • Stealth bonus of +24 when moving, or +25 when stationary.


Minion popping (Rain of Hammers Ki Focus).


  • Kill all adjacent minions after charging.

  • Poisonous Shuriken allows for up to 3 ranged attacks simultaneously.


Powerful, accurate charges:


  • L12:

  • 95% hit rate vs CL+0 mobs (+23 with CA + Charge vs. 22 Reflex).

  • 2d8 (Attack Finesse) + 1d8 (Vanguard) + 1d8 (Surprising Charge) + 1d8 (Base) + 1d6 (Horned Helmet) + 6 (Dex mod) + 3 (EB) + 4 (Bracers of Mighty Striking) + 1 (Gauntlets of Blood) + 2 (Light Blade Expertise) + 2 (Owlbear Aura) + 5 (Pitted Flowstone)

  • (4.5*5+3.5+6+3+4+1+2+2)*0.90+(4.5*3+8*5+6*2+3+4+1+2+2)*0.05 + 5 = 48.475 DPR; Kill 20 Con CL+0, 114 HP Standard mob in 2.35 attacks. 




  • L16:

  • 95% hit rate vs CL+0 mobs (+26 with CA + Charge vs. 28 Reflex). Half damage on a miss.

  • 2d8 (Attack Finesse) + 1d8 (Surprising Charge) + 1d8 (Base) + 2d6 (Horned Helmet) + 1d6 (Shadowdancer Gloves) + 7 (Dex mod) + 3 (EB) + 4 (Bracers of Mighty Striking) + 2 (Light Blade Expertise) + 2 (Owlbear Aura) + 3 (Silvery Glow) + 3 (Shard of Cold) + 5 (Lasting Frost) + 5 (Pitted Flowstone)

  • (4.5*4+3.5*3+7+3+4+2+2+3+3+5)*0.90+(3.5*3+8*4+6*3+7+3+4+2+2+3+3+5)*0.05+(4.5*4+3.5*3+7+3+4+2+2+3+3+5)/2*0.05 + 5= 62.66 DPR; Kill 20 Con CL+0, 146 HP Standard mob in 2.61 attacks. 



Free/No/Minor Action attacks/DPR supplementation:


  • +4 to first attack roll with Guild Executioner L11 feature (always start off encounter hidden). 

  • Low Slash (1-2/encounter with +3d6 Sneak Attack damage; Power Jewels grant 2 additional uses after 1st milestone)

  • 5d10 Assassin's Strike (attack, 1/encounter)

  • 2d6 Warlock's curse (attack, 1/encounter)

  • At-will attack as minor; Rain of Hammers Ki Focus (1/day)

  • +4 poison damage + slow UENT; Carrion Crawler (encounter, 1/day)

  • 2 ongoing poison (save ends); Nitharit Poison (encounter, 1/day)

  • L16: +8 poison damage; Black Lotus (encounter, 1/day)


Contingencies to become/remain hidden/negate damage without Persistent Tail/after charge shifting/teleporting:


  • Gloaming Cut (at-will; remain hidden + shift/teleport 1 with Risky Shift)

  • Blending Leather Armor (1/encounter)

  • Smoke Bomb (1/encounter)

  • Vanish from View (1/encounter; think the Stealth check only allows evading an attack/doesn't actually allow you to become hidden) 

  • Cloud of Darkness (1/encounter)

  • Daring Escape (shift 2x speed as free action after a kill; 1/encounter)

  • L16: Reflexive Dodge (1/encounter; by RAW this should allow you to completely negate the area/close attack if you finish your move out of the area since it's an immediate interrupt in response to being hit)


Misc:



  • Disguise Owlbear companion as yourself with Bluff check? 




  • Added obligatory descriptive image.

  • Added CB summary.

Good combination of permastealth, frost and charging cheese. My favorite is the Rain of Hammers ki focus, though - I hadn't realized the potential of killing every minion adjacent with a single attack, very clever. I would suggest Shadow Master Ki Focus as a substitute, though, as it would increase the damage your attacks while hidden by 6-7 damage. This would more than offset the loss of 1d8 damage from Vanguard weapon.

I'm not sure if that's such a great deal in that I both lose out Rain of Hammer's minion popping (including the extra attack as a minor), and Vanguard's typeless damage in exchange for +2 damage. Shadow Master Ki Focus would be much more appealing if its damage wasn't typed as the commonly resisted necrotic.
You say that you're using Staff of the Traveler in your offhand for teleporting shenanigans, but I don't see where you're picking up proficiency with staves as implements, which is necessary to take advantage of its delightful property. Executioners aren't proficient with staves, and neither are Warlocks. You could drop a feat for AIP, I suppose, but you haven't. What does this change?
Ah true, forgot about needing prof.

As for what it changes, pretty much nothing if you drop Deft Blade. 23 vs AC on a CA + Charge vs 25 AC = 95% hit chance and identical DPR.

Alternately, you can do without until L14 or whenever you decide to take it and still nothing changes, though difficult terrain becomes more of a bitch.  Staff of the Traveller is there to more or less guarantee your mobility at the end of the charge, so you can always hide after the fact.
Actually, looking into rules for using implement powers/properties, you can technically use them as long as you can wield their corresponding implement, and the Cheesessassin can certainly wield a staff.

Also posted an L16 standard WBL version of the Cheesessassin.
The Char is not 100% legal. The Way of the Ninja (Hybrid) is not in the CB or official released. Alternatively i choosed League of Whispers.

Other question: Why counting on "Duelist's Prowess"? "Press the Advantage" or "Handspring Assault" should maybe fit better?

By all accounts I do believe that Sehanine's Mark of the Dark Moon and Zehir's Shadow Cloak would stack to take 25% on a hit while hidden, no? 
Ah ok, thanks!
---
 
Another question:
After the charge attack the CheeseAssa will make the shift as a free action granted as a property of the boots of charging. If i move the squares in this way, is it a move action or a free action or a move action done as a free action? My DM thinks this kind of permastealth doesnt work legally...

Any suggestions/opinions which help clear the ruling?
Any suggestions/opinions which help clear the ruling?



The problem I see with this 'cheessassin' is that the hybrid roque's Cunning Sneak  feat (via Hybrid Talent) is a little more restricted compared to a pure rogue's, because of  the description "If you end a move action at least 3 squares away from your starting position,..." instead of the pure rogue's "If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position,...", which seem to be different terms. The pure rogue's term seems to allow summarizing any kind of movement carried out during his turn, instead of limiting it to a specific move action being executed.

I think that's why in the "Han Shot First" Rogue Guide a pure roque was used to fulfill the requirements of permastealth. The shift granted by Boots of Adept Charging neither is a true move action itself, nor is it a part of the charge, as this is not mentioned in the property. It looks more like a no or free action to me. If it were a true move action, imho the description of the item's property would not be as simple, because a move action can't be performed after a charge regularly, except with the use of an action point.

Also a charge attack counts as standard action only and not both, a move action and a standard action together, doesn't it? So even if the shift after the charge granted by the boots would count as part of the charge, it does not fulfill the "move action" requirement of the Hybrid's Cunning Sneak in the first place. At least that's what the Player's Handbook and Rules Compendium tell me. The shift granted by Gloaming Cut is an effect missing the despcription "as a move action", so I guess it also counts as part of the Gloaming Cut standard action itself, or counts as a free or no action.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Also the Shadow Walk reading: "...if you move at least 3 squares away from where you started your turn,..." implies that you can not activate it by simply doing a 2 square charge and after that doing a 2 square shift backwards to where you came from.

I asked the CS about this and got this answer:

Thank you for emailing into Wizards of the Coast Game Support.

First, lets answer your latest question first. The rogue's Cunning Sneak ability was updated after the the Hybrid Rogue came out to say: If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position. The Hyrbrid Rogue's ability was not changed with this update. Some DMs have allowed there players to use the updated Rogue rules but as it is written right now your player's rogue will only be stealthed after taking a move action, not after an action (such as a charge) that moves him.

As for your question about monsters knowing where he is when he is stealthed. Your monsters can always 'see' the entirety of a players turn unless he starts, ends, and never is anything but stealthed during his turn. Assuming you player was at one point 'unstealthed' during his turn then they know what square he is in. If your player remained stealthed his entire turn then they would have to make a perception check in order to find him (and quite honestly would probably attack another PC or no one). If he is charging from stealth attacking and then restealthing each turn according to the rules your monsters would know what square he ends his turn in.

Finally, he has to move three squares from his starting location for all of the abilities that you mentioned to work, not just three squares total.

...
Take care and good gaming!
It's the holidays, good sir. Why must you sully the season with a CS answer? Tongue Out
Why not? I also got to work on holiday.
Hopefully you are better at your job than CS...
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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 Also the Shadow Walk reading: "...if you move at least 3 squares away from where you started your turn,..." implies that you can not activate it by simply doing a 2 square charge and after that doing a 2 square shift backwards to where you came from.



Everything else and the ambiguity of a move action aside (whether it is defined as an action that moves you, or a _literal_ move action), the Cheesessassin doesn't charge 2 squares then move 2 squares back; that's ridiculous and of course doesn't work. It charges, then shifts 2 squares through the target for acid damage via Pitted Flowstone, or elsewhere, for as much movement as it needs to.

Also, as an aside, this build works best as a Pixie for obvious reasons (especially due to the off-turn movement that allows you to remain suspended and hidden in mid-air), and I'll probably update the OP to reflect this sometime when I'm feeling more inclined.
I asked the CS about this and got this answer:

Thank you for emailing into Wizards of the Coast Game Support.

First, lets answer your latest question first. The rogue's Cunning Sneak ability was updated after the the Hybrid Rogue came out to say: If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position. The Hyrbrid Rogue's ability was not changed with this update. Some DMs have allowed there players to use the updated Rogue rules but as it is written right now your player's rogue will only be stealthed after taking a move action, not after an action (such as a charge) that moves him.

As for your question about monsters knowing where he is when he is stealthed. Your monsters can always 'see' the entirety of a players turn unless he starts, ends, and never is anything but stealthed during his turn. Assuming you player was at one point 'unstealthed' during his turn then they know what square he is in. If your player remained stealthed his entire turn then they would have to make a perception check in order to find him (and quite honestly would probably attack another PC or no one). If he is charging from stealth attacking and then restealthing each turn according to the rules your monsters would know what square he ends his turn in.

Finally, he has to move three squares from his starting location for all of the abilities that you mentioned to work, not just three squares total.

...
Take care and good gaming!

CS is useless. That is a compendium error, go look up hybrid Rogue in the PHB3. It says "As the Cunning Sneak class feature." Errata to the normal feature applies to the hybrid one.

Never ask CS anything.

Why on earth did you bump this?
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Everything else and the ambiguity of a move action aside (whether it is defined as an action that moves you, or a _literal_ move action),...



Sry, but since I often read: "RAW (Rules as Written)" in this forum, when referring to any descriptions, doesn't that mean that you have to take it literally?

The Problem is not Cunning Sneak, which lets you hide, after shifting 3 squares with whatever action from your starting position. The Problem is Improved Cunning Sneak, which hasn't been tailored to work the same way as Cunning Sneak.  It still works with Move Actions, only. This is a major complication with most permastealth builds, as shifting only 2 squares away after the charge as a free action won't get you 3 squares away from your starting position. Also this shift is a free action and not a move action.

And if you shift only 2 squares through an enemy's square (which will get hard on some occasions like large creatures blocking narrow tunnels) you end up adjacent to your target most likely, making you visible to it at the start of its next turn.

RAW is "Rules As Written" (in contrast with RAI, "Rules As Intended").  Just saying.
RAW is "Rules As Written" (in contrast with RAI, "Rules As Intended").  Just saying.


Does that change anything? But thanks for pointing that out. I am going to have that fixed.

It's ok, bruv. After all you've only been around this place for 3 years now. You can't know everything, yet.
It's ok, bruv. After all you've only been around this place for 3 years now. You can't know everything, yet.


I've been registered for 3 years now (as part of the Insider subscription). That doesn't mean I've been around this place frequently for 3 years. Your post count is about 75% higher than mine, yet you've been registered here for less than half a year now only. Besides the char op isn't the only subforum, is it?
It's one of the only 3 worth actually reading and posting in.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
charop, rules Q&A and ?
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I asked the CS about this and got this answer:

Thank you for emailing into Wizards of the Coast Game Support.

First, lets answer your latest question first. The rogue's Cunning Sneak ability was updated after the the Hybrid Rogue came out to say: If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position. The Hyrbrid Rogue's ability was not changed with this update. Some DMs have allowed there players to use the updated Rogue rules but as it is written right now your player's rogue will only be stealthed after taking a move action, not after an action (such as a charge) that moves him.

As for your question about monsters knowing where he is when he is stealthed. Your monsters can always 'see' the entirety of a players turn unless he starts, ends, and never is anything but stealthed during his turn. Assuming you player was at one point 'unstealthed' during his turn then they know what square he is in. If your player remained stealthed his entire turn then they would have to make a perception check in order to find him (and quite honestly would probably attack another PC or no one). If he is charging from stealth attacking and then restealthing each turn according to the rules your monsters would know what square he ends his turn in.

Finally, he has to move three squares from his starting location for all of the abilities that you mentioned to work, not just three squares total.

...
Take care and good gaming!

CS is useless. That is a compendium error, go look up hybrid Rogue in the PHB3. It says "As the Cunning Sneak class feature." Errata to the normal feature applies to the hybrid one.

Never ask CS anything.




Well I guess that settles that.

I asked the CS about this and got this answer:

Thank you for emailing into Wizards of the Coast Game Support.

First, lets answer your latest question first. The rogue's Cunning Sneak ability was updated after the the Hybrid Rogue came out to say: If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position. The Hyrbrid Rogue's ability was not changed with this update. Some DMs have allowed there players to use the updated Rogue rules but as it is written right now your player's rogue will only be stealthed after taking a move action, not after an action (such as a charge) that moves him.

As for your question about monsters knowing where he is when he is stealthed. Your monsters can always 'see' the entirety of a players turn unless he starts, ends, and never is anything but stealthed during his turn. Assuming you player was at one point 'unstealthed' during his turn then they know what square he is in. If your player remained stealthed his entire turn then they would have to make a perception check in order to find him (and quite honestly would probably attack another PC or no one). If he is charging from stealth attacking and then restealthing each turn according to the rules your monsters would know what square he ends his turn in.

Finally, he has to move three squares from his starting location for all of the abilities that you mentioned to work, not just three squares total.

...
Take care and good gaming!



I'm working on a build which is very dependent off these rules. It depends on being able to hide from enemies after being visible, making a stealth check and then moving. If they're telling me that the monsters still know where I am after I hid and moved, that's crazy. The DM doesn't have those rules for his monsters, where's the logic in that?

Second, what is this about Hybrid Cunning Sneak, are they serious? I've never seen such a gimp of a Hybrid Talent class feature. You're basically taking two thirds of that feature's usefulness. Is this sane?

Third, Improved Cunning Sneak...what is the deal with this. I won't argue if it is as it written, I would just appreciate the clarity. Was this an oversight from the update that changed the Cunning Sneak class feature, or was it delibrately left that way.

On these 3 things pend a really interesting build I'm polishing. A firm ruling could make or break that build.
Did you see the post by Alcestis? CS doesn't know what it's talking about (as usual). The hybrid Cunning Sneak definitively works like the original version of the feature per the PHB3 errata.

Further, yes, the enemy has to guess at your position after you move while stealthed (stuff like Blindsight/Tremorsense aside obviously) which is exactly one of the core schticks of this build.
charop, rules Q&A and ?


What's a DM to Do and Homebrew. There's utterly no reason for Q&A to exist given that all but 1 person who answers regularly is a CharOp regular.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

About the Thing if it works or not: The text of the Feat Improved Cunning Sneak states: "... you must end a move action at least 2 squares away from your starting position instead of 3". This implies, that the exact wording in the Player's Handbook will not overwrite all feats that tend the "Cunning Sneak"-Theme at all.  It means only that the changes in the hybrid talent must be handled exactly as described in the original text.
Therefore the Improved Cunning Sneak Feat triggers only when performing a move action and at least 2 squares away from the starting position moves. A free Action which will be made by moving (Fencing Boots) is not a Move Action et facto, or?

As bitter as it may be, the Improved Cunning Sneak Feat, remains unchanged.

As for the hybrid talent (Cunning Sneak Rogue Tactics): In the PHB 3 is that it works exactly as described in the PHB. Accordingly, the text in the CB is not the same, however, the feature works the same way. Seems unclear... and... weird! It works the same, but ist described incorrect?

There's utterly no reason for Q&A to exist given that all but 1 person who answers regularly is a CharOp regular.

While it's true that most of the Rules posters also post here, I think it's a good idea to have different mindsets in the different forums.  Rules arguments here are a little too likely to be of the form of "what can I fast talk my DM into thinking" vs "If I were trying to implement this correctly by spec, how would it work?"

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima


About the Thing if it works or not: The text of the Feat Improved Cunning Sneak states: "... you must end a move action at least 2 squares away from your starting position instead of 3". This implies, that the exact wording in the Player's Handbook will not overwrite all feats that tend the "Cunning Sneak"-Theme at all.  It means only that the changes in the hybrid talent must be handled exactly as described in the original text.
Therefore the Improved Cunning Sneak Feat triggers only when performing a move action and at least 2 squares away from the starting position moves. A free Action which will be made by moving (Fencing Boots) is not a Move Action et facto, or?

As bitter as it may be, the Improved Cunning Sneak Feat, remains unchanged.

As for the hybrid talent (Cunning Sneak Rogue Tactics): In the PHB 3 is that it works exactly as described in the PHB. Accordingly, the text in the CB is not the same, however, the feature works the same way. Seems unclear... and... weird! It works the same, but ist described incorrect?




Here's the problem with your objection though; Improved Cunning Sneak is obviously referential to and derivative of Cunning Sneak; this is made pretty well explicit by the 'instead of' clause, so it stands to reason that as the feat is clearly referential, it therefore by definition takes into consideration Cunning Sneak errata, which is no longer specific to move actions.
I think you're giving too much credit to whoever wrote the improved cunning sneak feat Surrealistik ;)
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

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It's one of the only 3 worth actually reading and posting in.


Maybe, to you. However time does not stand still, so the D&D Next sections are maybe worth reading to some as well.

Here's the problem with your objection though; Improved Cunning Sneak is obviously referential to and derivative of Cunning Sneak; this is made pretty well explicit by the 'instead of' clause, so it stands to reason that as the feat is clearly referential, it therefore by definition takes into consideration Cunning Sneak errata, which is no longer specific to move actions.


What happened to the 'RAW-Zealots' inside here ?

Improved Cunning Sneak: "When you make a Stealth check to become hidden using your Cunning Sneak class feature, you must end a move action at least 2 squares away from your starting position instead of 3." Remaining unchanged!

Disconcerting...while I've been always told that the charop section would be the least for speculations here it happens, all right. One time people in here strictly insist on the actual writing and on the next occasion there is room for 'assumptions' and 'bargaining'. Smells like flip-flopping, pretty much.

About your speculation, by RAW the Imp. Cunning Sneak feat actually is to be considered 'invalid' due to it's unmodified description. And it wouldn't be the first 'defective' one *looking at academy master's Learned Boost power*. So much for "settling anything".
Only reason the DnD Next forums would be worth reading would be if you were gathering evidence for a manifesto discrediting democratic government.

The effect of Improved Cunning Sneak is to lessen how far you must go with a move action to invoke the feature. No more, no less.
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If i made the shift after the attack as a free action, i will not benefit from the Improved Cunnging Sneak modification becourse its contents that i must end a move action but i made a free action including movement. The Cunning Sneak feat was overwritten to "movement" so i must shift 3 to benefit from the whole thing.

If i'm right, with that... the whole thing seems to crumble.

What's with the permahidden builds in the Han Shot's first Handbook for example? The combinations - Deft Strike + Ghostwalker Style or Piercing Strike + Criterion of Balic Practice, Eldtrich Strike + White Lotus Master Evasion, look obsolete to me. How can we explain that thei will still work? Shifting 3 squares to trigger the benefit of the Improved Cunning Sneak effect?

They function fine in Epic because of Risky Shift+Long Step


They also function in Paragon if you're willing to take Staff of Traveler and teleport boosters.