Edition wars a d the future

1. People are people and there are all types. Constructive positive negative rude and so on

2. There are those that will never change their opinion on what is considered the true d&d Ed 

3. What we should all agree on is our love of the game And wanting to see it thrive

4.  All editions had pro and con to it.  That is why new editions were made. What happened is the rules got bigger in fact everything got bigger which led to more pro and con issueS and so the cycle continued. What failed was not trying to do what they are trying to do now. Mass player opinion on what worked and what did not.  If it was done, we might be at 2nd or 3rd edition instead of 5th

5.What I think needs to be done and not to be done. 
I am afraid that we will see a huge book with each chapter listing each edition as an option to choose. Thus a melting pot of rules e.g hit table choose table a b or c   Saves choose table a b or c etc. Although great for getting everything out there for people to choose from I see mass confusion in works on howI having it all work together. 
What I am hopeful for is basic rules and adding a chapter of additions that can be chosen by the gaming group. 
For me a simple physical attack method ac 20. Roll a d20 add bonuses equal or greater is a hit
Saves: based on 4th edition work and are simple. However I would limit the level bonus for every 5 levels 
Slide pulls push should only be an option to choose if wanted to be used by a group who might be using figures. It would be better like this. E.g declare a pull or push vrs target. modifier for your attack roll equal to size of creature for a 1hex pull or push. -1 small -2med -3Etc 
Othwise just keep it simPle with no rule and allow creativity for DM and players.
Movement in fourth is simple and can be used for both hex figures or no figure game play
Encumbrances for movement don't have any. Let the DM decide. 
Get rid of marks. Altogether. 
Allow fighters to wear any armor
Alignment in fourth was perfect and simple
Gods in fourth is a good sample but change the following bahumet is dragonborn god like Moradin and corellon for elves. Change raven queen to a better name. Get rid of Vecna as a god and back as a villain lich. Add a simple way for DM to create their own gods to add. Name symbol influence alignment brief summary 
Skills: either simple like fourth or none. Just tell the DM what you want to do and he gives you a modifier. I jump over the pit. Ok roll your dex -3. 
Weapons simple one die for damage. No change for creature size 
Need to change the powers. Leave it as feats or none at all or redo how powers are done. 






 
It was only until 4e that financially WOTC took a hit.  So if we have the same success as we had going from 1e-->2e-->3e then WTOC will be very happy.   If 3e-->4e then they will not be.  I'm talking finances nothing else.

You can't please everybody but maybe you can get a ruleset that pleases more than 4e does.

I'm hoping one that can also please the 4e people as well. 

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It was only until 4e that financially WOTC took a hit.  So if we have the same success as we had going from 1e-->2e-->3e then WTOC will be very happy.   If 3e-->4e then they will not be.  I'm talking finances nothing else.


I don't think that statement is true. First of all, keep in mind that TSR went bankrupt during 2e. Second, it isn't a matter of relative revenue, it's raw numbers. Hasbro doesn't give a **** if 4e made more or less than 1e/2e/3e and they don't give a **** if 5e makes more or less than 1e/2e/3e/4e. What they care about is whether or not the D&D brand name hits their arbitrary dollar figure (which I don't believe 3e ever hit either, so they would not be happy even if 4e was the same success that 3e was, and if they owned Paizo we'd be seeing a new edition of Pathfinder instead).
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It was only until 4e that financially WOTC took a hit.  So if we have the same success as we had going from 1e-->2e-->3e then WTOC will be very happy.   If 3e-->4e then they will not be.  I'm talking finances nothing else.


I don't think that statement is true. First of all, keep in mind that TSR went bankrupt during 2e. Second, it isn't a matter of relative revenue, it's raw numbers. Hasbro doesn't give a **** if 4e made more or less than 1e/2e/3e and they don't give a **** if 5e makes more or less than 1e/2e/3e/4e. What they care about is whether or not the D&D brand name hits their arbitrary dollar figure (which I don't believe 3e ever hit either, so they would not be happy even if 4e was the same success that 3e was, and if they owned Paizo we'd be seeing a new edition of Pathfinder instead).



TSR went bankrupt not because of the sales of 2e, which, admittedly, were flagging, but because they over leveraged themselves trying to be a paperback novel publishing company.

Your second statement of what Hasbro cares about is pretty much spot on Imho.  And I agree with you that even the pinnacle of 3e sales is not enough to impress the shareholders, for they are spoiled by the $50 million+ per year sales of giant franchises like Transformers.  If D&d is to ever gain Transformers like sales, it needs an IP that has Transformers mass appeal to go with the game.
Your second statement of what Hasbro cares about is pretty much spot on Imho.  And I agree with you that even the pinnacle of 3e sales is not enough to impress the shareholders, for they are spoiled by the $50 million+ per year sales of giant franchises like Transformers.  If D&d is to ever gain Transformers like sales, it needs an IP that has Transformers mass appeal to go with the game.


Yep. Unfortunately it doesn't help that every attempt at a D&D movie has been even a worse disaster than the Transformers or GI Joe movies. We have no action figure line to leverage. There are video games that are ok, but nothing to compare with the big moneymakers like WoW.

I just don't see Hasbro being satisfied even if D&D captures 99% of the RPG market.
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Your second statement of what Hasbro cares about is pretty much spot on Imho.  And I agree with you that even the pinnacle of 3e sales is not enough to impress the shareholders, for they are spoiled by the $50 million+ per year sales of giant franchises like Transformers.  If D&d is to ever gain Transformers like sales, it needs an IP that has Transformers mass appeal to go with the game.


Yep. Unfortunately it doesn't help that every attempt at a D&D movie has been even a worse disaster than the Transformers or GI Joe movies. We have no action figure line to leverage. There are video games that are ok, but nothing to compare with the big moneymakers like WoW.

I just don't see Hasbro being satisfied even if D&D captures 99% of the RPG market.




I would agree I wouldn't be suprised if the whole American RPG market (every single RPG from Vampire to Call and beyond) isn't much more then 50 million dollars altogether.  

Also well movies like Transformers are bad, they have so many advantages come out during big summer months, and have flashy special effects, which  D&D will never get.
True but what are the best ideas to make 5th work taki g the best of each edition
More precisely, there were good video games, but there hasn't been a really good one since Neverwinter Nights 2, and that was 3e era.
Unfortunately, as far as video games are involved Hasbro is shackled to Atari until 2016 or so, and Atari doesn't seem able to produce games on par with Skyrim or Dragon Age (or even NWN 2 itself).

GP
I thought I heard something about WotC getting the video game rights back from Atari, since they were sucking......

But, your core point is right. When Atari got involved, D&D games went downhill. I did not like NWN1 at all (I wanted a full party, not me and a henchman!), and NWN2 was just....bland. Of course, NWN2 was made by Obsidian, who just kinda suck. Temple of Elemental Evil had great promise, but it was ruined by a slew of bugs.

You know what I'm playing to get my video D&D fix? Baldur's Gate. The first one. That's how crappy a job WotC and Atari have done with their video games. 

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I thought I heard something about WotC getting the video game rights back from Atari, since they were sucking......

But, your core point is right. When Atari got involved, D&D games went downhill. I did not like NWN1 at all (I wanted a full party, not me and a henchman!), and NWN2 was just....bland. Of course, NWN2 was made by Obsidian, who just kinda suck. Temple of Elemental Evil had great promise, but it was ruined by a slew of bugs.

You know what I'm playing to get my video D&D fix? Baldur's Gate. The first one. That's how crappy a job WotC and Atari have done with their video games. 



Obsidian is... Strange... They can dish out pretty cool games or really bland games. New Vegas and Mask of the Betrayer were really good, even better than the standard Bioware game IMHO. But then you have the bland and meh titles like the base NWN 2 (wich was more of a parody of an rpg than an rpg...). Oh well...

But yeah, a good 4e videogame could have really helped the edition, sadly Atari sat on the license. Let's hope for a decent 5e game (in Eberron!), at least!
During 2e times they invested too heavily in niche add on products that sold poorly.  The core books were a success.  

You may be right about Hasbro.  I really don't know.  I think 4e sales though are poor relative to previous editions especially after the initial burst.

Whenever a new edition hits the shelves people rush out and buy it.  Thats why they like new editions.  I bought most of the 4e core line (maybe 6 books) before I realized I didn't like it.  I now buy nothing 4e related.  I'm sure I'll buy the initial books for 5e.  I bought a TON more 3e stuff but I admit it wasn't all WOTC stuff.  But book for book I spent ten times the money on 3e stuff.  It is the backend market that suffers when a game is less popular.  The campaign settings, modules, niche books, etc....  I think here 4e is suffering.

Now I will admit.  Every single rpg company in the world would love 4e sales save maybe Paizo.  So I'm not saying 4e is horrible sales wise.  I'm just saying that they lost a lot of players they had in 2002 with 3e.  I don't think they've made those losses up.  It's kind of like being a millionaire or a half millionaire.  Us middle class people would love either but not if you started out as a millionaire.



 

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.

Your second statement of what Hasbro cares about is pretty much spot on Imho.  And I agree with you that even the pinnacle of 3e sales is not enough to impress the shareholders, for they are spoiled by the $50 million+ per year sales of giant franchises like Transformers.  If D&d is to ever gain Transformers like sales, it needs an IP that has Transformers mass appeal to go with the game.


Yep. Unfortunately it doesn't help that every attempt at a D&D movie has been even a worse disaster than the Transformers or GI Joe movies. We have no action figure line to leverage. There are video games that are ok, but nothing to compare with the big moneymakers like WoW.

I just don't see Hasbro being satisfied even if D&D captures 99% of the RPG market.




Do you think the D&D cartoon led to some of the success of the brand in the 1980's? I remember that cartoon fondly, and while I wasn't a fan of the main characters, I liked Venger and Tiamat and the beholder and I think that cartoon ultimately led to my interest in the game at a later stage. My progression went: Conan movies, D&D Cartoon, Choose-your-own-adventure books, D&D books, Sagard Books, Lone-Wolf Books, Dragonlance books, D&D.

Could a new cartoon help the brand today?
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb 1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic. it?" -anon "Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it." -Maxperson
Hasbro has drawn a line by saying they want D&D to meet a set dollar amount of sales per year.  That dollar amount is much larger than the rest of the table-top RPG "industry" combined for many years. 

Hasbro execs don't even care about the "edition wars", except how it can make them more money.

By comparing it to the sales of Magic:TG they are clearly saying they want a continuous cycle of high-profit sales that they totally and exclusively own.

As to the cartoon = If Hasbro had any bright people, or good lawyers, they would leverage D&D into "Game of Thrones", "Twighlight" and the new LOTR or any number of other hot properties.   However they don't appear to be interested in going that direction, probably because MMOs and FPSs have totally dominated that part of the media universe.

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