Will Wizards pull 4e when Next comes on line?

Is there any news or hinting from the developers on whether the 4e material, especially the CB and Compendium will be yanked once Next is released?
I can't be bothered to search up the quote right now, but they've specifically stated they're not going to do that.

At least, not straight away. They haven't promised they'll keep the tools up in perpuity, just that they won't take them down when 5th comes out. 
Is there any news or hinting from the developers on whether the 4e material, especially the CB and Compendium will be yanked once Next is released?

Eventually, though not right away. Still, if they manage to draw most of the current 4E players into D&D Next (myself included), those materials can be upgraded to the new edition since they won't be of much use at that point.

I imagine they'll base it on usage. If the online tools for 4E contuinue to be used by paying subscribers to DDI, they'll maintain it; if they see a big shift away from them, it'll probably eventually get the axe (or go freeware). Either way, "support" in this case would mean maintaining access; there won't be any further development once 5E hits.
WotC wants you to play D&DNext. 

I can't imagine them supporting 4e in any way when 5th is released.
Best case scenario, they don't turn the digital tools off before 5th is up. 

It comes down to back end expenses, WotC isn't going to let 4e tools cut into 5th profits. 
Like when a movie is a success or failure on ticket sales, not quality of film. 

With no new material coming out, the compendium and CB become 'static'.  All those people required to update these tools on a monthly basis are no longer being paid for this work, so you'd assume the profit margin just increased a lot.  

The question would be: is the cost of maintaining the servers more or less than the income from DDI subscriptions?  I've got a feeling that it's lot of easy money every month, so they'll keep the servers running until the math tells them to pull the plug.
      
There is an intangible:  how much money are we losing to potential 5E products by keeping our 4E stuff online?  This is balanced in theory by: how much money will we lose if we yank 4E support and anger potential 5E customers who just aren't ready to switch yet? 


With no new material coming out, the compendium and CB become 'static'.  All those people required to update these tools on a monthly basis are no longer being paid for this work, so you'd assume the profit margin just increased a lot.  

The question would be: is the cost of maintaining the servers more or less than the income from DDI subscriptions?  I've got a feeling that it's lot of easy money every month, so they'll keep the servers running until the math tells them to pull the plug.
      
There is an intangible:  how much money are we losing to potential 5E products by keeping our 4E stuff online?  This is balanced in theory by: how much money will we lose if we yank 4E support and anger potential 5E customers who just aren't ready to switch yet? 



I expect because of this that while the 4e tools will remain up for some time, they will eventually "fall into disrepair" -- one after the other experiences "bugs" that, due to being outdated, will never be fixed.  It starts with a relativley low priority DM-centric tool, to judge the impact, and if the impact was more migration than abandonment, it progresses a notch.  mass anger?  Someone "fixes the bug" and they try again with another system later.  Maybe it would be shady, but it would also be the smartest way to go about phasing out 4e from a PR standpoint. 

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WotC wants you to play D&DNext. 

I can't imagine them supporting 4e in any way when 5th is released.
Best case scenario, they don't turn the digital tools off before 5th is up. 

It comes down to back end expenses, WotC isn't going to let 4e tools cut into 5th profits. 
Like when a movie is a success or failure on ticket sales, not quality of film. 



This only works if we're talking about sporadic buys like books, which need continued writers and material made, as well as continued printing costs and etc, etc.

The 4e tools in DDI make steady, regular income.  That's something the tabletop industry has always wanted but never been able to have previously.  It's entirely digital.  There's no need to "update it" once a certain threshold passes.

There isn't a chance in hell they're going to shut the 4e part of DDI down.  There's literally no reason to.  WotC isn't going to let 5e cut into already regular 4e profits.
The 4e tools in DDI make steady, regular income.  That's something the tabletop industry has always wanted but never been able to have previously.  [...] WotC isn't going to let 5e cut into already regular 4e profits.


But we don't know that DDI is making any profits. WotC doesn't give out numbers. If the cost to maintain it isn't covered by the subscriber income, then it's probably going to be cut.

And WotC has already let 5E "cut into already regular 4e profits" just by announcing it. Their goal will NOT be to try and keep everyone playing 4E when 5E comes out. it will be to keep players buying new material and subscribing to some new form of DDI for 5E services.

Given that there are many fans, such as myself, who will literally WALK AWAY from Dungeons and Dragons FOREVER if they take down those tools, they'd be idiots to do that.

I have ongoing campaigns that use those tools, they'd make it nearly impossible for me to run them.  Any company that kicks their customers in the balls like that while we are still paying them never gets another dime of my leisure money. 
There are some 3.e tools still available on the site if you know where to look, so there's precedent, but there may not be easy/obvious access to the tools any more.

I've seen a lot people kicked in the balls though, so personally I wouldn't count on having it.
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Wizards of the Coast has a history of dropping stuff that people like so I don't see how this will be any different. They also have a history of keeping their cards close to their chests so to speak so you probably won't hear anything about the DDI or the online tools specifically until about the time they pull those same tools.

This would be a stellar opportunity to step in and ease a few concerns, but I wouldn't hold my breath. 
When it comes to IT I know of what I speak.  The cost will be next to nothing.  The amount of storage for all the tool data is negligible.  If they take 4e down it will be to force players to 5e.  I imagine they will not though and leave it up indefinitely.  The cost to keep a static db and tool up is vanishingly small compared to keeping a live db up.  

So don't worry.  What they will do is yank the books off the shelves.  Then your only access outside of the used market of course will be DDI.   That means you are even more likely to subscribe even if you are playing 4e only.  

I hate 4e with a burning passion hot as the sun but even I if in charge of IT would not take those tools down.   Over my dead body would be my attitude.  The cost is nil, the PR is high, and the potential downside is great. 

But we don't know that DDI is making any profits. WotC doesn't give out numbers. If the cost to maintain it isn't covered by the subscriber income, then it's probably going to be cut.



Does anyone who's a subscriber wanna go check how many people are in the D&D Insiders group?  Subscribers are added automatically, and removed automatically if they drop thier subscriptions.  So the amount of people in that group would give a baseline number of current subscribers. 

Last I was in it the numbers were at about 50k.   People subscribing for a year at a time pay the equivalent of about 6$ a month, giving us a rough lowball estimate of $300,000 a month.  I can't imagine it takes anywhere near that much to maintain it.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
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Is there any news or hinting from the developers on whether the 4e material, especially the CB and Compendium will be yanked once Next is released?

They specifically said it would not be.  They also specifically said they were not working on 5e - and they weren't, they were working on D&D Next.  By the same token, you can expect them not to pull the 4e tools when Next is released.  They may wait a year or a week or something.

5e really needs something like Wrecan's SARN-FU to support "Theatre of the Mind."

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax

 

 

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I'm pretty sure that the word used was "plan".  I doubt that anyone in a position of authority would promise continued support (as they understand that it's something that will be handled in the future and no one wants responisbility for misdirecting customers).  I think it's unlikely that the primary tools of DDI will remain intact (the CB as an evolving tool will likely be replaced with a new version...resource management being the key).

Wish I had the quote at hand.
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With no new material coming out, the compendium and CB become 'static'.  All those people required to update these tools on a monthly basis are no longer being paid for this work, so you'd assume the profit margin just increased a lot.  

The question would be: is the cost of maintaining the servers more or less than the income from DDI subscriptions?  I've got a feeling that it's lot of easy money every month, so they'll keep the servers running until the math tells them to pull the plug.
      
There is an intangible:  how much money are we losing to potential 5E products by keeping our 4E stuff online?  This is balanced in theory by: how much money will we lose if we yank 4E support and anger potential 5E customers who just aren't ready to switch yet? 



That assumes that 4e and D&DNext won't be compatible--or at least somewhat compatible.  Given the way that they made the Essentials compatible with the initial offering of 4e, I think we're in for less of a revolution than a simple evolution, albeit one that fixes some of the power-creep and action-economy problems that come up in the higher levels of 4e.

My $.02 is that they've never quite succeeded with Epic Tier gaming.  I think that fixing that balance and making it playable is likely to be a point of emphasis.  At least... that is what I would do, in any event.
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That assumes that 4e and D&DNext won't be compatible--or at least somewhat compatible.  Given the way that they made the Essentials compatible with the initial offering of 4e, I think we're in for less of a revolution than a simple evolution, albeit one that fixes some of the power-creep and action-economy problems that come up in the higher levels of 4e.


You haven't been following the DDXP announcements have you? It is going to be very different from 4e.
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There is an intangible:  how much money are we losing to potential 5E products by keeping our 4E stuff online?  This is balanced in theory by: how much money will we lose if we yank 4E support and anger potential 5E customers who just aren't ready to switch yet? 



Here's the $100,000 question though... how many people who continue to rely on the 4E database would simply outright refuse to buy ANYTHING from WotC/Hasbro if they take the database away?

As has been said, the cost of maintaining a static database is next to nothing. Which means the ONLY reason to take it away is because they cynically want to try and force 4E players to give up playing a game they love in order to get more money out of them. Such callous disregard for their target audience does NOT engender goodwill and a desire to buy.

By the same token, "Next" is going to have an associated miniatures game with pre-painted minis and maps and/or tiles associated with the game. If there's any sort of tactical module inside the core rules they'll NEED to produce more dungeon tiles. Those are things that players can buy regardless of what edition of D&D they play.

But if they killed the database I'm pretty sure everyone I know that plans on sticking with 4E would turn to other sources than WotC for such game aids. I know that I'd never give WotC another dime after proving to me that they care ONLY about my money and not actually providing me with a product I want to use.

Barring them creating an offline version of the tools (which they'd have no reason to give up the ongoing revenue stream for if they weren't shutting it down to leave 4E players in the cold and try and force sales of Next) before they shut down the online ones I see no way for them to avoid extremely negative blowback for killing the 4E tools.
There is an intangible:  how much money are we losing to potential 5E products by keeping our 4E stuff online?  This is balanced in theory by: how much money will we lose if we yank 4E support and anger potential 5E customers who just aren't ready to switch yet? 



Here's the $100,000 question though... how many people who continue to rely on the 4E database would simply outright refuse to buy ANYTHING from WotC/Hasbro if they take the database away?

As has been said, the cost of maintaining a static database is next to nothing. Which means the ONLY reason to take it away is because they cynically want to try and force 4E players to give up playing a game they love in order to get more money out of them. Such callous disregard for their target audience does NOT engender goodwill and a desire to buy.

By the same token, "Next" is going to have an associated miniatures game with pre-painted minis and maps and/or tiles associated with the game. If there's any sort of tactical module inside the core rules they'll NEED to produce more dungeon tiles. Those are things that players can buy regardless of what edition of D&D they play.

But if they killed the database I'm pretty sure everyone I know that plans on sticking with 4E would turn to other sources than WotC for such game aids. I know that I'd never give WotC another dime after proving to me that they care ONLY about my money and not actually providing me with a product I want to use.

Barring them creating an offline version of the tools (which they'd have no reason to give up the ongoing revenue stream for if they weren't shutting it down to leave 4E players in the cold and try and force sales of Next) before they shut down the online ones I see no way for them to avoid extremely negative blowback for killing the 4E tools.


Exactly. It would likely do more harm to their sales than good.  (edited: Illegal Activity)
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The 4e tools in DDI make steady, regular income.  That's something the tabletop industry has always wanted but never been able to have previously.  [...] WotC isn't going to let 5e cut into already regular 4e profits.


But we don't know that DDI is making any profits. WotC doesn't give out numbers. If the cost to maintain it isn't covered by the subscriber income, then it's probably going to be cut.



1) Data and storage is cheap and DDI has a lot of subscribers as was stated previously.

2) Trying to make the same tired old argument of 4e = New Coke!!! in your sig does you no favors if you want people to take you honestly.
Really? Someone seriously got butthurt over the mention of perfectly legal programs such as Masterplan? Really? Get a life dude.
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As has been said, the cost of maintaining a static database is next to nothing. Which means the ONLY reason to take it away is because they cynically want to try and force 4E players to give up playing a game they love in order to get more money out of them. Such callous disregard for their target audience does NOT engender goodwill and a desire to buy.



The only reason to do it is to force 4e players into 5e.  I'd be angry if I loved 4e and probably boycott them.  I don't love 4e but I think they should be fair.  

They are a subscription service.  If keeping 4e up brings in or keeps more subscriptions then they should keep it.  It is practically free money.  The beauty here is that old edition support no longer requires they keep books in the channel.  As long as DDI supports an edition it's players are not 100% orphaned.  

I'd like to see them put up a 1e,2e,and 3e version of their tools for the grognards.  Why not?  Write the program once and then charge forever?  A monster building tool would be awesome for 3e.   

...4e = New Coke!!!...



What a perfect analogy.  I've never heard this before.  I won't say it is the catastrophe that New Coke was but it is the closest RPG equivalent.   They lost over half their customers.   Hey maybe it was worse than New Coke.

Ok all done poking.  I honestly had never heard the phrase.  I won't add it to my sig.


ADDENDUM:  writer@large 's blog on the subject was fascinating.  The comments excellent also. 
I'd like to see them put up a 1e,2e,and 3e version of their tools for the grognards.  Why not?  Write the program once and then charge forever?  A monster building tool would be awesome for 3e.   


I think the problem with that would be the effort required vs the expected revenue. 1e was pretty barebones, I can't imagine even needing a program for it. 2e already has the Core Rules CD and its expansion, which was far better than any tools I have seen come out since, and you can buy that once off of ebay and have a set of tools and ebooks that you own instead of renting the material every month from WotC. 3e has a lot of third party programs circling the internet, and given what I've seen from their digital team, I harbor some serious doubts about their ability to put up something that is cost effective for them and good enough to compete against everything else that is already out there. They had to resort to C&Ds just to keep their 4e tools relevant.
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It's all speculation but seems to me they have a lot to gain and little to lose by keeping the 4e Compendium and Character Builder available once 5e launches. They obviously would do very little to no updates to the 4e programs once 5e hits, but keeping them available without updating them probably costs relatively very little money so there's not much downside. Meanwhile having the 4e programs available would ensure that 4e players would mostly continue subscribing to DDi regardless of whether they switch over to 5e or not.


So little cost to keep the 4e DDi tools available assuming they're not updated combined with the risk that removing them could cause a loss in subscriptions by 4e-only players and at least on the surface it seems like they should probably keep them up. Of course who knows how it will play out in a more detailed behind the scene analysis, but I'll be a little surprised if they're taken down when 5e comes out.


P.S. Someone else asked about similar tools for older editions. That probably won't happen since the cost of developing new tools is pretty high. Keeping already existing tools available is much, much cheaper.

...4e = New Coke!!!...



What a perfect analogy.  I've never heard this before.  I won't say it is the catastrophe that New Coke was but it is the closest RPG equivalent.   They lost over half their customers.   Hey maybe it was worse than New Coke.

Ok all done poking.  I honestly had never heard the phrase.  I won't add it to my sig.


ADDENDUM:  writer@large 's blog on the subject was fascinating.  The comments excellent also. 



It's a tired old meme with little basis in reality.  What the writer's blog misses is that the biggest issue with New Coke was not New Coke but that a vocal group of people that actually enjoyed New Coke opposed it on bizarre ideological grounds and went out of their way to destroy the product.  If that's the example you want to use in comparison to 4e - a flat out superior game in every playtest that's only killed because of bad and regressive customers who attack other customers - then you are free to do so.

....4e - a flat out superior game in every playtest that's only killed because of bad and regressive customers who attack other customers - then you are free to do so....



The best game for you is the best game for you period.  That is unarguable assuming you can find some friends to play it with and even I don't think 4e has sunk that low.

Thankfully though WOTC definition of a superior game will be one that produces more sales.  This will be because I assume more people like it and enjoy playing it.  By this standard 4e is probably in last place edition wise.   Any objective standard for how good a game is will be by how many people are enjoying it.   Right now Pathfinder is likely being enjoyed by more people.   And I do think 4e benefits from D&D brand loyalty that 5e will keep when it brings back a lot of the 3e people.

I'm not attacking you by the way.  Play what makes you happy.  Just don't get all elitest on me by claiming that 4e is "superior" in some objective way that is not sales based.  

 
4e - a flat out superior game in every playtest that's only killed because of bad and regressive customers who attack other customers - then you are free to do so.



only superior for your group,

others found it to be sadly lacking and moved on to other games that they felt were better.  For my group Pathfinder is a clearly superior game both to 3E and to 4E.  That's my group, we are different from your group thus we like different things.  We happened to not like 4E so after trying to play it several times and simply not enjoying it we went for a game we did like.

different people like different things.  I happen to like a system with various levels of complexity where each class is different and has their own unique structure and rules.  I happen to like multiple subsystems and player options.

You like whatever it is in 4E draws you to it.
jolly good for you

with luck they will keep the DDI going and continue to provide articles, errata, adventures and other additions to your game once 5E hits the shelves.


GOod lord did you even read my post?

Go back and actually read it this time and try to note what was actually said.
Given that there are many fans, such as myself, who will literally WALK AWAY from Dungeons and Dragons FOREVER if they take down those tools, they'd be idiots to do that.

I have ongoing campaigns that use those tools, they'd make it nearly impossible for me to run them.  Any company that kicks their customers in the balls like that while we are still paying them never gets another dime of my leisure money. 



Harsh.

But justified I suppose, I didnt look at it that way. I think the concept of subscription is great for  releasing content in addition to offering print. In any case, I say this as someone who hadnt been thinking about ongoing campaigns...I never bought a single 4e product myself.
GOod lord did you even read my post?

Go back and actually read it this time and try to note what was actually said.




Oh hello Professor, fancy meeting you here -normally used to seeing you on ENword.

....4e - a flat out superior game in every playtest that's only killed because of bad and regressive customers who attack other customers - then you are free to do so....

I'm not attacking you by the way.  Play what makes you happy.  Just don't get all elitest on me by claiming that 4e is "superior" in some objective way that is not sales based.  

Heh.  Sorry, 4e is an objectively better game, on balance, alone.  4e is playable and balanced at all levels.  3.5 is barely playable at some levels, and radically imbalanced out of single-digits.  It's simply not what it tries to be. 

The CoC prevents me from theorizing as to /why/ a certain faction harbors such hatred for 4e, though...

...so I leave it to the readers' imgainations.  Why would someone hate a better-balanced game?  In a balanced game, there's a level playing field.  Why object to that?

5e really needs something like Wrecan's SARN-FU to support "Theatre of the Mind."

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax

 

 

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Given that there are many fans, such as myself, who will literally WALK AWAY from Dungeons and Dragons FOREVER if they take down those tools, they'd be idiots to do that.

I have ongoing campaigns that use those tools, they'd make it nearly impossible for me to run them.  Any company that kicks their customers in the balls like that while we are still paying them never gets another dime of my leisure money. 



Harsh.

But justified I suppose, I didnt look at it that way. I think the concept of subscription is great for  releasing content in addition to offering print. In any case, I say this as someone who hadnt been thinking about ongoing campaigns...I never bought a single 4e product myself.

Historically, most hold-outs eventually cave due to lack of new toys.  There's always a few hard-core types, but they're lost from the beginning.  4e died because 3.5 was able to buck that due to ongoing support from 3pps.  WotC would be foolish to allow any long-term ongoing support for 4e, it would just repeat the 3.5 debacle.  The plug will be pulled on 4e tools, eventuall, and anyone trying to put up 4e tools or suplements, or to clone 4e will get C&D'd but good. 

And 4e fans /will/ get sucked into 5e eventually, most of them, as their 4e books get stale.  Just like 1e and 2e hold-outs did, and 3.5 hold-outs didn't have to.

5e really needs something like Wrecan's SARN-FU to support "Theatre of the Mind."

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!


Given that there are many fans, such as myself, who will literally WALK AWAY from Dungeons and Dragons FOREVER if they take down those tools, they'd be idiots to do that.

I have ongoing campaigns that use those tools, they'd make it nearly impossible for me to run them.  Any company that kicks their customers in the balls like that while we are still paying them never gets another dime of my leisure money. 



Harsh.

But justified I suppose, I didnt look at it that way. I think the concept of subscription is great for  releasing content in addition to offering print. In any case, I say this as someone who hadnt been thinking about ongoing campaigns...I never bought a single 4e product myself.

Historically, most hold-outs eventually cave due to lack of new toys.  There's always a few hard-core types, but they're lost from the beginning.  4e died because 3.5 was able to buck that due to ongoing support from 3pps.  WotC would be foolish to allow any long-term ongoing support for 4e, it would just repeat the 3.5 debacle.  The plug will be pulled on 4e tools, eventuall, and anyone trying to put up 4e tools or suplements, or to clone 4e will get C&D'd but good. 

And 4e fans /will/ get sucked into 5e eventually, most of them, as their 4e books get stale.  Just like 1e and 2e hold-outs did, and 3.5 hold-outs didn't have to.




I don't know we have no proof if they do, I'm wouldn't bet against most holdouts either holdout until they can't find players and then stop playing.  This changed with 3.5 mind you since they could change to Pathfinder.  In the end though I don't think anyone has the facts on this.

Of course I'm one of those people who do not need some one printing stuff for me, so my thoughts my vary from others.
For reasons already mentioned by several people above, I don't see why they'd have any incentive to end DDI support for 4e in view of the subscription money they already receive.


There will certainly be a significant number of 4e fans who will not make the jump to 5e under any circumstance.


Even if WotC does decide to close down the 4e character generator, etc, (at some point in the future), I imagine that they would make the final version available for download (at a reasonable price).    
No one's gonna check the insider group for me?  I kinda thought it'd be relevant here.  /shrug.

Another reason for keeping the 4e tools up just occured to me.  If 4e players that have not made the switch are still using DDi, aside from that they're still still giving WotC money, they're also still coming to the WotC website on a regular basis.  They'll be right there to potentially see D&DN adverts, and WotC will know exactly how many of them there are.  So WotC can more easily figure out how much they stand to gain if they can pull in 4e holdouts by including some 4e-esque modules, and when/if they make those modules, advertising them to the target market is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
I imagen that, at least for a year or so after 5thed comes out, the 4th ed tools will be maintained as part of the online DDI subscription. I have to say though, I will do a jolly jig when those digital tools for 4th ed get yanked. Why? Because I have seen so many 'players' (not even sure I want to count them as gamers) refuse to buy a single book, and thus the local game store in my town suffered for it. I bought almost every 4th ed book that came out while every one else in the community just used the digital tools (also, I subscribed to the digital tools as well under the false advertisment that a virtual table would be out soon. When more then a year went by without it, I droped my subscription and then picked it back up again when the beta of the VT was launched). The result was that the store owner stoped supporting 4th ed books and games, since no one was buying them, and moved on to pathfinder. Made it harder for me, with almost a 100 percent complete collection of 4th ed books, to find a 4th ed game. I would go into the store and learn that a 'dungeons and dragons' game is going on that I could join, and would say im rolling up a pixy-fairy bard, and then get looks of shock and terror, followed by the explination that 'dungeons and dragons' really meant pathfinder.

Furthermore, I was looked down upon by the most die hard fans of 4th ed because I "wasted my money on the books" and that "instead of paying 35 bucks once a month for a new MM or PHB or other product I should have just paid about 6 bucks a month for all that plus character builder and virtual table." In fact, I had DMs tell me that a traditional pencil and paper character, with filled out power cards taht came in the 4th ed character pack, would not be accepted. That only "offical" character builder printed sheets would be accepted to make sure players aren't making mistakes (so much for the simplicity and playability of 4th ed if you need a computer program to build your character).

Any way, I tried to warn them that one day a new edition would come out and thier tools would go away, and that they would be sorry that they did not buy even the core set of books. They continued to mock (in a mostly friendly but still annoying way) my dedication to spending a little extra money to help support the local gaming community though supporting the local store. So, when the tools finally come down, I will be calling them up and saying "ha, your edition is dead and your cheap ass that refused to buy any books now has no way of playing your favorite edition. I told you this day would come! So, wanna play some DnD Next :D"

Also, I will get to contemplate if I want to sell my 4th ed stuff on ebay for a hefty mark up price, or just hold onto it as a collector's piece. Having almost the entire line of the most short lived edition would probably make for a rare collection :P

....4e - a flat out superior game in every playtest that's only killed because of bad and regressive customers who attack other customers - then you are free to do so....



The best game for you is the best game for you period.  That is unarguable assuming you can find some friends to play it with and even I don't think 4e has sunk that low.

Thankfully though WOTC definition of a superior game will be one that produces more sales.  This will be because I assume more people like it and enjoy playing it.  By this standard 4e is probably in last place edition wise.   Any objective standard for how good a game is will be by how many people are enjoying it.   Right now Pathfinder is likely being enjoyed by more people.   And I do think 4e benefits from D&D brand loyalty that 5e will keep when it brings back a lot of the 3e people.

I'm not attacking you by the way.  Play what makes you happy.  Just don't get all elitest on me by claiming that 4e is "superior" in some objective way that is not sales based.  

 




+100 and 57 billion to this. The idea that any one system is best is just silly. It boils down to personal taste. The fact that there is a market supporting several versions of retro clones alone is testement to this. The fact that pathfinder has already gone though several printings (probably more printings than 4e) is another big clue that 4th is not a superior game. It is just a game prefered by some. Older games are not superior either, they just offer a different experince.

Heh.  Sorry, 4e is an objectively better game, on balance, alone.  4e is playable and balanced at all levels.  3.5 is barely playable at some levels, and radically imbalanced out of single-digits.  It's simply not what it tries to be. 

The CoC prevents me from theorizing as to /why/ a certain faction harbors such hatred for 4e, though...

...so I leave it to the readers' imgainations.  Why would someone hate a better-balanced game?  In a balanced game, there's a level playing field.  Why object to that?



Really? Just stop.

Maybe some people don't like the way 4e balanced things. Maybe some people were alienated by the rebranding and the tossing away of traditions that didn't have any rules impact. Maybe some people were alienated by the fact that they were expecting a refinement and balancing of the existing system and got something completely different. Maybe some people never ran into the gamebreaking lack of balance that you suggest of previous editions. And so on.

What you're doing, casting aspersion--even if veiled--is just shameful, crass, rude and non-constructive. And, before you start, I would say the same if the vitriol was directed at 4e players that didn't like [insert edition here].

Just stop.