When did they change what abilities get a +2?

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It used to be a race only had 2 abilities that got a bonus. Now its one stat is set in stone with a +2 and you can choose from 2 other abilities for a +2 bonus? When did this happen and why? Haven't checked out 4th ed for a while and it was just confusing to me.

Like Tieflings used to only get a +2 Cha, +2 Int. NOW its +2 Cha with a choice of either +2 Con or +2 Int. So when and why was this done?
Around this time last year I think. Was a big article.


Gnoll's got shafted and shoved back under the "monster" rug.
It was an essentials thing (although the trend started with the races in PHB3).  Basically over the past year, the devs have retrofitted all the races into the new essential standards of which one standard was that non-human races get one set +2 and a second +2 that could float between to other stats.

-Polaris
Huh and they screwed over gnolls? Whatever. I'd still allow one as a PC if he fit into the game.
When: started with PHB3, then extended back to most races (except MM). www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...

Why: so that each race would have ideal stats for more classes & builds. For example, so Tieflings could be top-tier Infernal Warlocks to match their fluff.
When: started with PHB3, then extended back to most races (except MM). www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d... Why: so that each race would have ideal stats for more classes & builds. For example, so Tieflings could be top-tier Infernal Warlocks to match their fluff.



Actually they still dont get Con/Int, but atleast they get con.
They did it to expand the number of classes, builds, and roles that each race could excel at, to keep them from feeling so limited because of how people irrationally feel like they need a racial bonus to their primary ability score to be attractive. I don't personally feel that the change was necessary from that perspective, but I do still like the idea of expanding a race's more viable options. They've done it in other ways too, for example by offering alternative racial features for some races.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
This change started with PHB3 and the new races in it: Shardmind, Minotaur, Wilden and Githzerai. Eventually there was a Dragon article that give it to the other races.

Was it necessary? That depends on how badly you want those +2 bonuses to line up with class stats. Most people like it and it certainly didn't break the game in any way. If it's fun and doesn't hurt the game, then it's okay by me.
I was just wondering when they did it was all and if any other changes like that were made. I haven't played in a while and I bet any moment 5th ed will be upon us and D&D will bleed off more players...
They did it to expand the number of classes, builds, and roles that each race could excel at, to keep them from feeling so limited because of how people irrationally feel like they need a racial bonus to their primary ability score to be attractive. I don't personally feel that the change was necessary from that perspective, but I do still like the idea of expanding a race's more viable options. They've done it in other ways too, for example by offering alternative racial features for some races.


Yeah I don't understand why some people seemed to feel they couldn't play a class unless their stat boosts matched up with the key stats for that class.
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They did it to expand the number of classes, builds, and roles that each race could excel at, to keep them from feeling so limited because of how people irrationally feel like they need a racial bonus to their primary ability score to be attractive. I don't personally feel that the change was necessary from that perspective, but I do still like the idea of expanding a race's more viable options. They've done it in other ways too, for example by offering alternative racial features for some races.


Yeah I don't understand why some people seemed to feel they couldn't play a class unless their stat boosts matched up with the key stats for that class.



Because missing sucks. That's really the main reason. Missing either a skill check, attack roll, whatever.

I honestly don't usually play races that don't match up, but that's mainly because I don't like a lot of the races. Not for mechanical reasons. I generally like to play high dex classes, and none of the non +2 dex races really appeal to me. Especially considering you can go 20 dex without any real consequences.
I don't usually match up secondary stats with a race, but missing is bad and I always have matched up primary stats in 4E.

If I ever DM 4E I will let people get a slightly higher point buy if they go with a non-primary stat matchup race.
I haven't played in a while and I bet any moment 5th ed will be upon us and D&D will bleed off more players...


  You should check out the D&D Next forum... 5E is still at least a year or year and a half away - they haven't even begun the playtesting for it yet. 


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Having that option of which +2 to go with is a great move.  Should be implemented in 4.5E.  There shouldnt be a need for a 5E.
When: started with PHB3, then extended back to most races (except MM). www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d... Why: so that each race would have ideal stats for more classes & builds. For example, so Tieflings could be top-tier Infernal Warlocks to match their fluff.



Actually they still dont get Con/Int, but atleast they get con.


To be clear, they didn't care how well Tiefling Infernal Warlocks fared with the changes, what they cared about was Tiefling Infernal Hexblades, which are Cha/Con if I recall.

Having that option of which +2 to go with is a great move.  Should be implemented in 4.5E.



It was.
They did it to expand the number of classes, builds, and roles that each race could excel at, to keep them from feeling so limited because of how people irrationally feel like they need a racial bonus to their primary ability score to be attractive. I don't personally feel that the change was necessary from that perspective, but I do still like the idea of expanding a race's more viable options. They've done it in other ways too, for example by offering alternative racial features for some races.


Yeah I don't understand why some people seemed to feel they couldn't play a class unless their stat boosts matched up with the key stats for that class.



I do it to have the most synergistic choice possible.  And because I am a notorious min/maxer.

I would never make a race class combo that did not align with a class primary/secondary ability score match-up.  I'm going to squeeze every last plus out of the base class make-up so I can possibly relax a bit when I choose feats.

And honestly, I think they should keep it as thus (solid primary, variable secondary between two) for the next ed, since some races just should never be certain classes unless they want to be hamstrung.  Like a minotaur wizard just makes no sense to me.  I might see them as primal magic users, or sorcerers, wild magic, but studiers?  Not in a million years. 

That isn't to say that races shouldn't have a variety of classes they are good at, but that no race should be universally good at every class.  At that point, a class based system becomes rather pointless.

That may just be me, but I have the feeling it's not.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
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quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
Like a minotaur wizard just makes no sense to me. I might see them as primal magic users, or sorcerers, wild magic, but studiers? Not in a million years.

My campaign setting includes a priminant Minotaur Wizard NPC. Just letting you know.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Like a minotaur wizard just makes no sense to me.  I might see them as primal magic users, or sorcerers, wild magic, but studiers?  Not in a million years. 


You need to read "Looking For Group". 

But basicallly any race is going to have its intellectuals,  I am certain i could find other examples. 
Like a minotaur wizard just makes no sense to me.  I might see them as primal magic users, or sorcerers, wild magic, but studiers?  Not in a million years. 


You need to read "Looking For Group". 

But basicallly any race is going to have its intellectuals,  I am certain i could find other examples. 


That implies intellectual capacity isn't remotely tied to genetics. It is. I hate to sound like a grognard, but angsty teens wanting to play the more misunderstood or bestial races has severly corrupted the system. "The smartest orc" and "the most valorous kobold" should remain equivalent to being the man with one eye in the land of the blind, impressive and noteworthy in their own right, but entirely incomparable to "the average Eladrin" and "the average halfling" respectively. That's actually been my main suggestion for DnDNext: This game doesn't need to let people play whatever character they want to play and be effective, this game needs to be about iconic heroic archtypes being iconic heroes.

LFG comic is NOT D&D, it's based on WoW where Tauren are as similar to Minotaurs as the Kebler Elves are to Drizzt. "Like Gandalf, but a Minotaur" is just saying "I want to be a special flower, and I want to force you to be my gardner"
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I hate to sound like a grognard...

That's too bad, because that's exactly what you sound like.

This game doesn't need to let people play whatever character they want to play and be effective...

That's exactly what the game needs. This is a fantasy game. Unnecessarily limiting fantasy kind of defeats the point of fantasy.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Just wanted to say that you are all wrong. The varible stat races started in Eberron, where the Changling was given a choice of Dex or Int to make up for it's lackluster racial powers. Then, it went horribly, horribly wrong....
That implies intellectual capacity isn't remotely tied to genetics.


No, it doesn't. Especially since we have no good reason to think genetics works the same way in the D&D world as it does in ours (and there are actually some very strong reasons why it probably can't work the same way). And it's only somewhere between 40 and 60% hereditary in humans in the real world, FYI. As near as we can tell, anyway.

I hate to sound like a grognard,


Nothing wrong with being a grognard, per se. But if you really don't want to sound like one, then maybe you shouldn't say things that make you sound like one.

but angsty teens wanting to play the more misunderstood or bestial races has severly corrupted the system.


If by 'corrupted', you mean 'enriched', then sure.  Personally, I have no interest whatsoever in playing in a world where all the 'heroes' have to look like they crawled straight out of Tolkien's books. It's been many, many years since I was a teen, which means I grew out of just wanting to play Gandalf and Aragorn long ago.

This game doesn't need to let people play whatever character they want to play and be effective,


It absolutely does need to do that. Your proposals are a recipe for killing D&D for good, IMO.

this game needs to be about iconic heroic archtypes being iconic heroes.


In this context, 'iconic' = 'cliched and boring'.

"I want to be a special flower, and I want to force you to be my gardner"


All PCs should be 'special flowers'. In fact, as a DM, I don't generally allow the sort of PCs you'd probably describe as 'iconic'. If you want to play 'Generic Halfling Rogue #2647', or an obvious rip-off of Conan or Gandalf, you can play it at someone else's table, thanks. I want PCs with unique and interesting stories that don't cause me to mentally replace your character's name with the name of the fictional character they are blatant expies of. And, as a DM, I consider it part of my role to act as a 'gardener' to the PCs if that's what they need. There's no 'forcing' involved.

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

I'm bored, and this started with a comment about no minotaur wizards, so I decided to take a look back at 2nd edition which is the last time we saw racial restrictions on classes, and back then the minotaur was actually one of the few non-human races allowed to be a wizard...

Note : racial restictions were not a good thing, and needed to be dropped.  
Like a minotaur wizard just makes no sense to me.  I might see them as primal magic users, or sorcerers, wild magic, but studiers?  Not in a million years. 


You need to read "Looking For Group". 

But basicallly any race is going to have its intellectuals,  I am certain i could find other examples. 



I've seen the comic.  It's not bad.

I don't think it's a good idea to attempt to model narrative from comics and books straight to games. Like adapting a book to a movies, some things work, some things don't.

Moreover, is there any proof that the magic they are using in that comic is'nt primal, but arcane? ;)

Like a minotaur wizard just makes no sense to me. I might see them as primal magic users, or sorcerers, wild magic, but studiers? Not in a million years.

My campaign setting includes a priminant Minotaur Wizard NPC. Just letting you know.



I knew you would, as you seem to be very big on letting someone be anything they want.  I have no problem with being what you want, but if it doesn't jive with the fluff inherent in the D&D world, you're not going to be as good at it as others.  For example, Salvatore has a druid dwarf somewhere in his writing, which is apparently ridiculous in older editions.  Though . . .

I'm bored, and this started with a comment about no minotaur wizards, so I decided to take a look back at 2nd edition which is the last time we saw racial restrictions on classes, and back then the minotaur was actually one of the few non-human races allowed to be a wizard...

Note : racial restictions were not a good thing, and needed to be dropped.  



So obviously within the older editions (which I have not played ever) minotaurs were in fact "allowed" to be Wizards.


Just to be clear, I am not saying Minotaurs should not get to be wizards.  I'm saying they shouldn't get to be good wizards simply based on, "I want to play a really good minotaur wizard."  Again, when everyone can be everything, class and race becomes unimportant.  I prefer to have the "some races and classes mesh better together" type of system because those combos are always going to stand out.  However, I do not promote going to a system where you honestly actually can't choose to make a slightly weaker class/race combo to make what you want, but I do think that is and should be the trade-off: if that particular race is better suited to weilding raging elemental or primal power than more controlled arcane power, then attempting arcane should always be a harder road for 99.999999999999999999999999% of that race.  And note that while a fair amount of arcane power is under control, there is always the outlier (the sorcerer).



As a total offshoot note to Crimson, I do love the article for giving races different things they can do, variating the races a bit more.  It makes the race component much more interesting.

I still like the PHB3 Minotaur though. ;)
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
I knew you would, as you seem to be very big on letting someone be anything they want.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I have no problem with being what you want, but if it doesn't jive with the fluff inherent in the D&D world...

What D&D world? I don't know if you've noticed, but there are various different D&D worlds, and not even just what the developers cover. Do you mean the medieval world? Or the high-fantasy world? Or the steam-punk world? Or the post-apocalyptic desert world? Or the science fiction space travel world? What's inherent to the fluff of some of these worlds is not inherent to the fluff of others. Minotaurs with INT penalties simply do not jive with the fluff inherent in my D&D world.

In my world, the reason that I have a prominent Minotaur Wizard NPC is because Minotaurs in my world are a civilized sea-faring people, not savage subterranean brutes. And do you know why that's what minotaurs are like in my world? Because in the first game I ran in this world, one of my players wanted to play a Minotaur but didn't like the idea of needing to come from a culture of savages. Although his character was actually a Fighter, it was quite intelligent, and his desire to play something more unique gave me something that I could use to make my world more memorable. This is why my setting includes obsidian Warforged, Kalashtar that share their minds with dragons, and psychic moon-people.

My point is, if your players want to play something different, then try working with it. You'll be amazed and what wonderful and memorable things you can get out of just running with something that sounds crazy.

As a total offshoot note to Crimson, I do love the article for giving races different things they can do, variating the races a bit more.  It makes the race component much more interesting.

Thank you, that's unexpectedly flattering. ^_^

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Just wanted to say that you are all wrong. The varible stat races started in Eberron, where the Changling was given a choice of Dex or Int to make up for it's lackluster racial powers. Then, it went horribly, horribly right....



Fixed that for you.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Hmm... Minotaur wizards in the 'default' D&D world...

*Looks at PHB3 description for minotaurs*

"Perhaps as a result of this inner struggle, minotaurs seek structure and order in all that they do. They take great pleasure from perfecting their talents, and many spend lifetimes mastering trades, artistic styles, magic, and fighting techniques."

Sounds to me like they'd actually favour the more studious, structured path of the wizard over other forms of spellcasting.

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

I would just point out that minotaurs are not supposed to be stupid, especially when it come to things like mazes. 

For some wierd reason 3.5 gave them an intelligence penalty even while describing them as cunning and saying that it was impossible for them to get lost.

And in my DMs homebrew setting minotaurs and gnomes live together in a harmonious society since they are two races that were once one, until they sepearated by a cataclysm type event into two seperate races that still share the same culture.  It makes perfect sense for one of those minotaurs to be a wizard.
Now I want to play a minotaur wizard whose spellbook is a set of metal plates into which he scribes stylised maze designs that he then meditates on to open up each spell's respective memory pathways in his mind.

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

I would just point out that minotaurs are not supposed to be stupid, especially when it come to things like mazes. 

For some wierd reason 3.5 gave them an intelligence penalty even while describing them as cunning and saying that it was impossible for them to get lost.

And in my DMs homebrew setting minotaurs and gnomes live together in a harmonious society since they are two races that were once one, until they sepearated by a cataclysm type event into two seperate races that still share the same culture.  It makes perfect sense for one of those minotaurs to be a wizard.




Awesome.

But now you have me imagining small, magical, gnome-like minotaur Surprised 



That aside, I find D&D is always sort of in a battle between having a set setting, and being setting-neutral.    
I knew you would, as you seem to be very big on letting someone be anything they want.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I have no problem with being what you want, but if it doesn't jive with the fluff inherent in the D&D world...

What D&D world? I don't know if you've noticed, but there are various different D&D worlds, and not even just what the developers cover. Do you mean the medieval world? Or the high-fantasy world? Or the steam-punk world? Or the post-apocalyptic desert world? Or the science fiction space travel world? What's inherent to the fluff of some of these worlds is not inherent to the fluff of others. Minotaurs with INT penalties simply do not jive with the fluff inherent in my D&D world.

In my world, the reason that I have a prominent Minotaur Wizard NPC is because Minotaurs in my world are a civilized sea-faring people, not savage subterranean brutes. And do you know why that's what minotaurs are like in my world? Because in the first game I ran in this world, one of my players wanted to play a Minotaur but didn't like the idea of needing to come from a culture of savages. Although his character was actually a Fighter, it was quite intelligent, and his desire to play something more unique gave me something that I could use to make my world more memorable. This is why my setting includes obsidian Warforged, Kalashtar that share their minds with dragons, and psychic moon-people.

My point is, if your players want to play something different, then try working with it. You'll be amazed and what wonderful and memorable things you can get out of just running with something that sounds crazy.

As a total offshoot note to Crimson, I do love the article for giving races different things they can do, variating the races a bit more.  It makes the race component much more interesting.

Thank you, that's unexpectedly flattering. ^_^



I dislike ability score penalties as well.  However, I don't personally think minotaurs should get Int bonuses.  Just not for me.

That being said, I never mentioned not allowing a race class combo; just that I wouldn't make combos without races having the primary/secondary stats of their class as bonuses.  Already have a player with one stat on, but no secondary stat.  It's a bit harder for them, but not too much.  If the minotaur player had wanted to be a spell slinger I'd have allowed it, but he wanted to be a barbarian. ;)

By D&D world I mean the general, default world and assumptions that world makes.  Hell, they tried doing away with a default world this time, and ended up with a new one (Nentir Vale, stand up and say 'hi') because many people don't have the time or inclination to make their own world.  I'm not saying I am or am not one of those people, but I will say that base fluff, be it eladrin are good at being wizards, minotaurs are good at meaty classes, demons and devils hate each other, etc is useful and I usually use it unless something just doesn't fit with my plan.  In my plan, Minotaurs are generally brutes, end of story. ;)

And I give kudos where they are due.  Options for everyone is a great way to go. 

I just don't support "everyone qualifies for everything ever" as "options".

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
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