Does the Reach of the Kusari Gama stack with the superior Transcendent Ki-Focus?

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The Kusari gama (Dragon 404) is already a reach weapon. Does a Superior Transendent Ki Focus (Psionic Power p. 151) give you a total of reach 3 with the Kusari Gama?
I don't think so. According to the rules, you can use a magic ki focus to add its enhancement bonus, critical hit effect and magical properties to a weapon attack. Nothing more, nothing less. The extra reach from a Transcendent Ki Focus isn't a magical property, so you wouldn't add it to the weapon attack. 
I don't think so. According to the rules, you can use a magic ki focus to add its enhancement bonus, critical hit effect and magical properties to a weapon attack. Nothing more, nothing less. The extra reach from a Transcendent Ki Focus isn't a magical property, so you wouldn't add it to the weapon attack. 

Thank you for the quick answer.
By that line of reasoning, you wouldn't gain any benefits of any superior ki foci when making weapon attacks...

I believe it is added.

A superior implement is not the same thing as a magic implement, so different rules needs must apply.

For example, take the feat and buy a non magical transcendent ki focus. You now have no magical properties whatsoever, and you are not wielding a magical ki focus.

[edit]
Let's look at the actual and full rules text from which you're getting that from;
  Ki Focuses and Weapon Attacks: If you use a magic ki focus, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of weapon attacks you make using a weapon with which you have proficiency. If you have both a magic ki focus and a magic weapon, you choose before you use an attack power whether to draw on the magic of the ki focus or that of the weapon. Your choice determines which enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, and magic item properties and powers you can apply to that power. You can’t, for example, use the enhancement bonus of your ki focus and the critical hit effect of your magic weapon on the same attack.

Note that is only diferentiating between which of the two you get when using a magic ki focus and a magic weapon. It in no way has anything to do with superior implements.

I do believe that the OP would indeed get reach 3 with a transcendent ki focus and a kusari gama.
By that line of reasoning, you wouldn't gain any benefits of any superior ki foci when making weapon attacks...


Exactly. I believe the properties of superior ki foci only apply when you make implement attacks with them. As the rules excerpt in your post states, the rules concerning combining a ki focus and a weapon only state that you can add the ki focus' magical properties to weapon attack powers. Since superior ki foci aren't magical, you don't add their properties. 

Note that is only diferentiating between which of the two you get when using a magic ki focus and a magic weapon. It in no way has anything to do with superior implements.


Exactly, so you don't get their properties. (spot a pattern yet? ;) ) Claiming you do get them, just because the rules don't say you don't, seems a reeeally iffy rules interpretation to me.
Well, I think I do get the point of Hephalumph, though.
The rule only applies to magical properties, but not the weapon characteristics itself.
The reach 2 of the Kusari Gama is not a magical property, but a general.
The Transcendent Ki Focus applies a +1 to the weapon reach, so theoretically it could also apply this to any other
reach 2 weapon, as long as you use your Ki Focus, since general properties seem not to be deactivated by that rule.

Also there are magical superior implements like a "Transcendent Manual of Ninjutsu +2" for example.
However that additional +1 reach is is superior, not magical. So is the reach 2 of the Kusari Gama.

That was my original thought at least.
Thanks for your contributions so far.
Superior Implement bonuses NEVER apply to weapon attacks.  This is specified in a sidebar in the book that released them.  So no, the +reach from transcendent will not ever stack with the reach from KusariGama.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Superior Implement bonuses NEVER apply to weapon attacks.  This is specified in a sidebar in the book that released them.  So no, the +reach from transcendent will not ever stack with the reach from KusariGama.


So you can use that +1 reach only when fighting with a Ki focus and bare hands (unarmed). Like some monks may do.

Unless the attack has the Implement keyword, the Superior properties do nothing.

ALmost all monk attacks are Implement attacks.  The Superior properties apply.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Unless the attack has the Implement keyword, the Superior properties do nothing.

ALmost all monk attacks are Implement attacks.  The Superior properties apply.



And what about powers, which include both, the weapon and the implement keyword?
If I recall the wording correctly, it's the presence of the implement keyword that allows you to use the Superior properties, so Hexblade attacks (the only current attacks which have both keywords) would use the superior properties if you made the with the ki focus.

But the Hexblade is a mess of poor writing that way.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
If I recall the wording correctly, it's the presence of the implement keyword that allows you to use the Superior properties, so Hexblade attacks (the only current attacks which have both keywords) would use the superior properties if you made the with the ki focus.

But the Hexblade is a mess of poor writing that way.




"When you wear or hold your ki focus, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of monk powers and monk paragon path powers that have the implement keyword. You can also add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of weapon attacks you make using a weapon with which you’re proficient."

That's in the description of the Ki Focus, found at the monk cass in Psionic Power.
So it seems that the Ki Focus is the only implement which can be applied to weapon attacks, or power, which have the "weapon keyword".

If I recall the wording correctly, it's the presence of the implement keyword that allows you to use the Superior properties, so Hexblade attacks (the only current attacks which have both keywords) would use the superior properties if you made the with the ki focus.

But the Hexblade is a mess of poor writing that way.




"When you wear or hold your ki focus, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of monk powers and monk paragon path powers that have the implement keyword. You can also add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of weapon attacks you make using a weapon with which you’re proficient."

That's in the description of the Ki Focus, found at the monk cass in Psionic Power.
So it seems that the Ki Focus is the only implement which can be applied to weapon attacks, or power, which have the "weapon keyword".



Superior Implements have specific wording in the PHB3 (195) that their properties only ever apply to implement powers, even if the implement can be used as a weapon.
That means only the enhancement bonus is applied even on weapon attacks, but not any other property, so the only reason to have a Ki Focus as an Assassin (Executioner) for example is to get an enhancement Bonus for the array of different weapons you carry, without spending too much gold.
Basically, yes.

Ki Focuses are very good if you are using multiple weapons, or if you are using weapons which cannot be enchanted.

You apply the magical properties of the ki focus to weapon attacks, but not the Superior properties.  The enchantments work fine, but things like Transcendent, that cost you a feat to get, only work for attacks with the Implement keyword.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
If I recall the wording correctly, it's the presence of the implement keyword that allows you to use the Superior properties, so Hexblade attacks (the only current attacks which have both keywords) would use the superior properties if you made the with the ki focus.

But the Hexblade is a mess of poor writing that way.



    When you use a power associated with your pact weapon and the power has both the weapon and the implement keyword, you are considered to be wielding both your pact weapon and your implement for the purpose of feats and other game elements.

Hmmmm, Reach for a Hexblade could be fun...

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
By that line of reasoning, you wouldn't gain any benefits of any superior ki foci when making weapon attacks...


This is in fact explicitly stated in both PHB3 and AV.

To gain the benefits of a superior implement, the attack must have the implement keyword.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
If I recall the wording correctly, it's the presence of the implement keyword that allows you to use the Superior properties, so Hexblade attacks (the only current attacks which have both keywords) would use the superior properties if you made the with the ki focus.

But the Hexblade is a mess of poor writing that way.


Or any other superior implement, and it is intended that you gain that function.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
This only works for Hexblades because of the specific ruling given in their class bio surrounding this - their weapon takes on the properties of the implement being used, and their At-Wills and special Hexblade encounter powers have both the Weapon and Implement keywords.

The Transcendent buff (or any other superior implement buff, for that matter) never works on powers that do not have the Implement keyword
Just to clarify:

Implement = weapon reach or superior ki focus reach, not both
Weapon = weapon reach only
Implement, Weapon = both weapon reach and superior ki focus reach

Is that correct?
Implement-keyword-only powers will tend to not have a range of Weapon.  Weapon reach doesn't matter at all for things like Monk attacks, the majority of which are either fixed ranges or touch.

For the special case of Hexblades, yes you can get some interesting stacking effects.  A gloom pact hexblade with staff implement proficiency and staff expertise, or with a transcendent ki focus, you can have a reach 3 MBA.  Oh what fun can be wrought with that.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Just to clarify:

Implement = weapon reach or superior ki focus reach, not both
Weapon = weapon reach only
Implement, Weapon = both weapon reach and superior ki focus reach

Is that correct?



Implement = Implement reach only. 
Weapon = Weapon reach only.
Implement & Weapon= Both weapon reach and implement reach. 
Implement-keyword-only powers will tend to not have a range of Weapon.  Weapon reach doesn't matter at all for things like Monk attacks, the majority of which are either fixed ranges or touch.

For the special case of Hexblades, yes you can get some interesting stacking effects.  A gloom pact hexblade with staff implement proficiency and staff expertise, or with a transcendent ki focus, you can have a reach 3 MBA.  Oh what fun can be wrought with that.



Funny you should mention that. I've been playing one of those for several months now, and its become my favorite character. With Flail expertise he makes a surprisingly effective controller, especially coupled with the more entertaining utilities like Mirror Darkly. We just hit paragon, and I went with the Shadow Dancer PP, and took Lashing Flail as my level 11 feat (MC Executioner to qualify as a martial class). Now my MBA is reach 3, -2 penelty to attack rolls, prone and slide 1. Mirror Darkly gives me some of the most hilarious utility imaginable, and the outlaw theme/Shadowy Tendrils gives me 2/encounter daze/prone for some makeshift psuedo-stuns, not to mention a fair amount of forced movement. All in all I'm fairly confident in saying this is one of the more effective Hexblade builds.
It seems however, as if a Ki Focus' property can indeed be used - along with it's enhancement bonus - when performing a weapon attack.

Apparently the Manual of Ninjutsu (Dragon #404), which has been designed for the Ninja class is an evidence to my assumption.
Its magical enchantment properties, powers, and enhancement bonus, yes.  But not its superior implement properties.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It seems however, as if a Ki Focus' property can indeed be used - along with it's enhancement bonus - when performing a weapon attack.

Apparently the Manual of Ninjutsu (Dragon #404), which has been designed for the Ninja class is an evidence to my assumption.



I don't believe anyone is disupting that, but there is a difference between the properties of a magic ki focus like Manual of Ninjutsu and the properties of a superior implement like a transcendent ki focus. The wording I quoted earlier from the PHB3 applies specifically to superior implements.
I did not doubt that, but someone else stated that ONLY the enhancement bonus could be applied. Also being able to use the magical properties and powers of a Ki Focus makes it a bit more attractive.
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