Hexproof and its troubles

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Ok so now that i and many friends have been engaging in more sophisticated Magic some things begin to pop up that are questionable to some, if not many of us when it comes to understanding evergreen words, as well as some of the wordings of cards. 

I HAVE read through as much as possible on the Complex rules on Hexproof(sadly not a large portion), even downloaded it so i have it closer as a reference.

I am very curious about the abilities section and have a hard time interpruting how they define certain aspects of the cards.


(sorry but the term Target seems to be the center piece of some of these arguments)

1.  Karn vs. Hexproof
    So i run [C]Karn Liberated[/C] ,which is one of my more favorite cards, and a possible deterent to his abilities are such hexproof abilities of [C]Witchbane Orb[/C].
   So i know that because of his +4 ability that states "Target player" i cannot use it on such an individual that has become Hexproof.  The question is that his -14 ability is not worded with "target player" so if i understand hexproof correctly the game would restart for everyone.
  And just so that i cover it all, if i wanted to exile a permanent with Karn's -3 ability i would not be able to target a hexproof creature/artifact/etc because it is worded as "target"

2.  DoJ vs. Hexproof
  So i actually read in another forum that [C]Day of Judgment[/C] does not fail against those that are hexproof.
    The reasoning that i concluded from that forum was because the wording does not include the word "target."
   Now what i do not understand is that Hexproof states "spells and abilities your opponent controls" so when does a card stop being a spell and start being a sorcery/instant/enchantment.  EDIT: i re read spells in the rule book and undstand that when DoJ resovles it is no longer a speel thus  legal.

   Because of that oblivian ring should work ,i think, as it is no longer a spell and ability is so hard to specifically define(that or i just have trouble understanding its wordings).

3.  Double mana leak (most likely fualty)
  So during a duel with a friend he cast a spell during which i [C]mana leak[/C]ed and after he paid his three i played another one.
  I am unsure if this was a legal move or not as i do not know if priority was passed back to me. so in the future, if i can i must imeadiatly cast both mana leaks (i dont think i can cast two spells in response to one; unless he plased something on the stack after the first [C]mana leak[/C]) prior to his mana payment for one, or a card more suited for the situation such as [C]Cancel[/C] or [C]Dissipate[/C].
  I just did what i could with what i had and if there is another way this could play out please i would love to hear.

4. sorry another Karn question
   The situation was this.   I ultied Karn and as our new game stated i had recieved a [C]aegis angel[/C] from my oppenent which i got to keep for a turn before he [C]Unsummon[/C] the card.   Now because the game was restarted i am unsure as to who the angel goes back to.  i know that my opponent was the original owner, and i gained control of it in the second game. 
   So all i need to know is whose hand is goes to.

so for quoting sake you can just use one of the four numbers and i will understand, unless you wish to remove parts to only respond to one section, or however you wish to deal with that

1.  Karn vs. Hexproof
    So i run [C]Karn Liberated[/C] ,which is one of my more favorite cards, and a possible deterent to his abilities are such hexproof abilities of [C]Witchbane Orb[/C].
   So i know that because of his +4 ability that states "Target player" i cannot use it on such an individual that has become Hexproof.  The question is that his -14 ability is not worded with "target player" so if i understand hexproof correctly the game would restart for everyone.

Correct.
  And just so that i cover it all, if i wanted to exile a permanent with Karn's -3 ability i would not be able to target a hexproof creature/artifact/etc because it is worded as "target"

Correct.
2.  DoJ vs. Hexproof
  So i actually read in another forum that [C]Day of Judgment[/C] does not fail against those that are hexproof.
    The reasoning that i concluded from that forum was because the wording does not include the word "target."

Correct. Spells and abilities target if they use the word "target". Additionally, aura spells are targetted. Otherwise, it does not target.
   Now what i do not understand is that Hexproof states "spells and abilities your opponent controls" so when does a card stop being a spell and start being a sorcery/instant/enchantment.  

Spells are cards on the stack (or copies of spells). Once it leaves the stack, it is no longer a spell.
EDIT: i re read spells in the rule book and undstand that when DoJ resovles it is no longer a speel thus  legal.

While it is resolving, it is definitely a spell. After it is done resolving, it is no longer a spell.
   Because of that oblivian ring should work ,i think, as it is no longer a spell and ability is so hard to specifically define(that or i just have trouble understanding its wordings).

Oblivion Ring has a triggered ability, and that triggered ability targets. Hexproof can stop it.

3.  Double mana leak (most likely fualty)
  So during a duel with a friend he cast a spell during which i [C]mana leak[/C]ed and after he paid his three i played another one.

That was legal. Spells resolve one at a time, with a chance to respond after each.
4. sorry another Karn question
   The situation was this.   I ultied Karn and as our new game stated i had recieved a [C]aegis angel[/C] from my oppenent which i got to keep for a turn before he [C]Unsummon[/C] the card.   Now because the game was restarted i am unsure as to who the angel goes back to.  i know that my opponent was the original owner, and i gained control of it in the second game.  

Unsummon says to return it to its owner's hand. (and even if it didn't, it's not possible for cards to go to the hand of a player that isn't its owner).

Ok so now that i and many friends have been engaging in more sophisticated Magic some things begin to pop up that are questionable to some, if not many of us when it comes to understanding evergreen words, as well as some of the wordings of cards. 

I HAVE read through as much as possible on the Complex rules on Hexproof(sadly not a large portion), even downloaded it so i have it closer as a reference.

I am very curious about the abilities section and have a hard time interpruting how they define certain aspects of the cards.


(sorry but the term Target seems to be the center piece of some of these arguments)


702.11b "Hexproof" on a permanent means "This permanent can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control."

702.11c "Hexproof" on a player means "You can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control."


Here is a simple step-by-step procedure to identify whether a particular spell or ability targets:

Step 1
Make sure you are looking at the Oracle text of the card and/or the rulebook text for any keyword(s).

Step 2
If it is not on the stack, it has no targets, and you can skip the rest of the steps.

Step 3
If it is an Aura spell, it has one (1) target as indicated by its enchant ability, and you can skip the rest of the steps.








1.  Karn vs. Hexproof
    So i run [C]Karn Liberated[/C] ,which is one of my more favorite cards, and a possible deterent to his abilities are such hexproof abilities of [C]Witchbane Orb[/C].
   So i know that because of his +4 ability that states "Target player" i cannot use it on such an individual that has become Hexproof.  The question is that his -14 ability is not worded with "target player" so if i understand hexproof correctly the game would restart for everyone.
  And just so that i cover it all, if i wanted to exile a permanent with Karn's -3 ability i would not be able to target a hexproof creature/artifact/etc because it is worded as "target"


Karn's third ability has no target.  Hexproof (or shroud) does not even try to interfere with it.  As for Karn's second ability, your opponent's permanent with hexproof can not be the target, but hexproof will not keep you from choosing your own permanent as the target.
2.  DoJ vs. Hexproof
  So i actually read in another forum that [C]Day of Judgment[/C] does not fail against those that are hexproof.
    The reasoning that i concluded from that forum was because the wording does not include the word "target."
   Now what i do not understand is that Hexproof states "spells and abilities your opponent controls" so when does a card stop being a spell and start being a sorcery/instant/enchantment.  EDIT: i re read spells in the rule book and undstand that when DoJ resovles it is no longer a speel thus  legal.

   Because of that oblivian ring should work ,i think, as it is no longer a spell and ability is so hard to specifically define(that or i just have trouble understanding its wordings).


A Day of Judgment on the stack is a sorcery spell until it finishes resolving (or otherwise leaves the stack).  But it has no target.  Oblivion Ring's "When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, exile another target nonland permanent." ability does have a target while it is on the stack (including during its resolution).
3.  Double mana leak (most likely fualty)
  So during a duel with a friend he cast a spell during which i [C]mana leak[/C]ed and after he paid his three i played another one.
  I am unsure if this was a legal move or not as i do not know if priority was passed back to me. so in the future, if i can i must imeadiatly cast both mana leaks (i dont think i can cast two spells in response to one; unless he plased something on the stack after the first [C]mana leak[/C]) prior to his mana payment for one, or a card more suited for the situation such as [C]Cancel[/C] or [C]Dissipate[/C].
  I just did what i could with what i had and if there is another way this could play out please i would love to hear.


Are you asking about a sequence like this one (which happens to be perfectly legal)?

  1. Opponent's main phase begins.

  2. Opponent gets priority and casts a spell, whose details are not important for this sequence.

  3. Opponent gets priority and passes.

  4. You get priority and cast Mana Leak.  You choose the spell cast in step 2 as the target, and pay the cost using obtained in an unspecified way.

  5. You get priority and pass.

  6. Opponent gets priority and passes.

  7. The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 4) resolves.  Opponent gets in an unspeciified way and pays it.  Mana Leak goes to your graveyard.

  8. Opponent gets priority and passes.

  9. You get priority and cast Mana Leak.  You choose the spell cast in step 2 as the target, and pay the cost using obtained in an unspecified way.

  10. You get priority and pass.

  11. Opponent gets priority and passes.

  12. The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 9) resolves.  Opponent does not pay .  The spell cast in step 2 is countered and goes to opponent's graveyard.  Mana Leak goes to your graveyard.

  13. Opponent gets priority and ....

4. sorry another Karn question
   The situation was this.   I ultied Karn and as our new game stated i had recieved a [C]aegis angel[/C] from my oppenent which i got to keep for a turn before he [C]Unsummon[/C] the card.   Now because the game was restarted i am unsure as to who the angel goes back to.  i know that my opponent was the original owner, and i gained control of it in the second game. 
   So all i need to know is whose hand is goes to.


"Return target creature to its owner's hand."  I.e., your opponent's.  If it said "controller's hand", it would be a Valuable Misprint.
714.2. All _Magic_ cards involved in the game that was restarted when it ended, including phased-out permanents and nontraditional _Magic_ cards, are involved in the new game, even if those cards were not originally involved in the restarted game. Ownership of cards in the new game doesn't change, regardless of their location when the new game begins.

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.


  1. Opponent's main phase begins.

  2. Opponent gets priority and casts a spell, whose details are not important for this sequence.

  3. Opponent gets priority and passes.

  4. You get priority and cast Mana Leak.  You choose the spell cast in step 2 as the target, and pay the cost using obtained in an unspecified way.

  5. You get priority and pass.

  6. Opponent gets priority and passes.

  7. The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 4) resolves.  Opponent gets in an unspeciified way and pays it.  Mana Leak goes to your graveyard.

  8. Opponent gets priority and passes.

  9. You get priority and cast Mana Leak.  You choose the spell cast in step 2 as the target, and pay the cost using obtained in an unspecified way.

  10. You get priority and pass.

  11. Opponent gets priority and passes.

  12. The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 9) resolves.  Opponent does not pay .  The spell cast in step 2 is countered and goes to opponent's graveyard.  Mana Leak goes to your graveyard.

  13. Opponent gets priority and ....




This is exactly what happened, and this i feel is the best way you could have out it.