Dork Ascension

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Creature based stuff is really boring. I will be buying 0 DKA aside from the 5 commons I need for my deck.

Who else is severely disappointed?
Creature based stuff is really boring. I will be buying 0 DKA aside from the 5 commons I need for my deck.

Who else is severely disappointed?



Since this game is pretty much entirely based on creatures... I'm not sure why you even like it in general. But I think this set is just as awesome as Innistrad was. Severely undisappointed. 
If you are content with main and battle phases this post clearly is not for you. Im just not as fascinated by the art of turning dudes sideways as much as you, or wizards. Its more fun to, you know, be more involved in the games.
Re: Dork Ascension

Agreed.  As a player with 2-3 competitive decks, none of which are tier 1, I am severely disappointed in this set.  I look forward to drafting, however, as long as I can get someone else to pay for me in exchange for packs.
If you are content with main and battle phases this post clearly is not for you. Im just not as fascinated by the art of turning dudes sideways as much as you, or wizards. Its more fun to, you know, be more involved in the games.



That's the great thing about this game, if standard doesn't have what you want you can play modern or legacy. I, typically, feel as you do. I would rather play a game of chess like magic than smash someones face with creatures. But, the current card base doesn't allow for much creativity.
If you are content with main and battle phases this post clearly is not for you. Im just not as fascinated by the art of turning dudes sideways as much as you, or wizards. Its more fun to, you know, be more involved in the games.



That's the great thing about this game, if standard doesn't have what you want you can play modern or legacy. I, typically, feel as you do. I would rather play a game of chess like magic than smash someones face with creatures. But, the current card base doesn't allow for much creativity.



Well, since I will be spending a whole 5$ to get the commons I need for standard I might actually have the ability to sock away a little something for the pricey mana base required for other formats. Heres hoping.
I agree 100% with OP.  I mean, there is nothing wrong with liking weenie aggro, but why is wizards jamming it down our throats as the only tournament worthy option?  I have quit magic because no stores play modern near me and I have absolutely NO fun turning cards sideways without any thought.


Why are games so fast?  Why is the dice roll so important?  Why do spells absolutely suck?  Wizards is just like any company, who after a certain amount of time start ruining their own creation.  FOrtunately for them, there are enough lonely dorks out there that use magic for more than competitive fun.  Eventually, they will get bored of every color and every deck being the same exact game.  
I don't get the generalizations of 'play aggro or lose'.  Not a week goes by where we don't have a few control decks top-8ing or even winning.  I play a different deck every week, and have top 4'ed with a full gambit of decks ranging from aggro (UW-Humans), mid-range (Bant beats), and Wolf-Run variants, to control (UW-Control, Grixis Control).

Delver and humans are very popular right now.  If they are in your meta, build your deck and sideboard accordingly.  I have yet to lose to UW-Delver, only ever going 2-0 or 2-1 against them.  The only games I've even lost against them were due to something silly like turn 1 delver, turn 2 flip + turn 2 second delver, turn 3 flip...which does not happen often. Gut Shot is your friend.  Ratchet Bomb is your friend.  Whipflare, Slagstorm, Day of Judgment, and Black Sun's Zenith are all pretty happy to help you out as well.

Granted, I am of the opinion that DKA doesn't offer too much (For Standard, anyway) and I am mostly unexcited for the set.  However, I think this is a highly diverse Standard format with many viable decks.  We've had tokens, humans, UB/UW/Grixis control, BR Control, Wolf Run and occasional rogue splashes like pod that have all put up tournament results, as well as local results at my FNM.  And with the exception of a select few cards I don't think DKA will be shaking up the format too much.
Are you disappointed about this specific set or about the standard metagame? Magic has been creaturebased for a while now. DKA doesn't really change from what has been before.

If you're specifically complaining about no interesting non-creature cards in DKA you don't need to feel left out, many players also complain about no interesting creatures in DKA. 
I haven't enjoyed turning dudes sideways since Affinity. That was my first aggro deck, and I think it ruined the playstyle for me forever. I can't play an aggro deck with which I can't sac out to Disciple and Shrapnel Blast your face. Laughing

That being said, this format is pretty awful right now. You're playing Blue and White (of varying types) or you're playing Wolf Run. There are no other options. It's extremely boring.
I expect Tokens to be very powerful. Not cawblade level powerful, because it seems pretty easy to hate out. Still, it will be a threat that everyone should be prepared for. 

I don't think the presence of tokens in tier 1 will make standard any more enjoyable. Sure, it's technically a different deck, but it seems like more of the same. Small efficient white critters turning sideways. It's a different flavor of aggro. It still seems like a poor environment for combo or control. 
I expect Tokens to be very powerful. Not cawblade level powerful, because it seems pretty easy to hate out. Still, it will be a threat that everyone should be prepared for. 

I don't think the presence of tokens in tier 1 will make standard any more enjoyable. Sure, it's technically a different deck, but it seems like more of the same. Small efficient white critters turning sideways. It's a different flavor of aggro. It still seems like a poor environment for combo or control. 



You say that like there's been an enviroment for combo in standard since before Worldwake :P

(at)MrEnglish22

Has anyone here actually done any playtesting with tokens?  If so, what were the results?



Its pretty good- you don't really want to play black beyond Sorin and flashback on Lingering Souls though (occasionally Tragic Slip). Still think that UW Delver will be on top, or really close. But UWB or RWB are the ways to go. Gotta stop those Bombs from Ratcheting.

(at)MrEnglish22

On a scale of liquimetal combo to cawblade, how good do you think tokens will be?



Somewhere in the middle. It's very good if you aren't facing Ratchet Bombs and Day of Judgments, and VERY bad if you're facing both.

Yes Lingering Souls and Sorin keep pooping out tokens after a reset, but let's be honest, the deck is still flimsy against board sweepers. I'm actually expecting Paraselene to see some play since there are several decks that plan to win via tokens and anthems. It's not a great card, but it could be a silver bullet against the expected sea of UW Humans and BW tokens all sporting 6-8 anthem effects.
You just described my deck for the new format. Esper Control that plays the aggro deck in control mirrors via Lingering Souls and a SoWaP. Esper CawBlade, basically.
Im not disappointed with the metagame. Im disappointed with wizards only fascilitating agro strategies, while leaving other styles of play out to dry. I wont hate on someone playing delver or what have you if it is clearly the best deck to play. I just detest the fact that there are so few options to combat agro aside from more agro. Before zen rotated there were at least 4 completely different top tier decks out that had very different strategies and ways to win aside from beats to the face. Now we have delver, haunted humans if it still exists/geist varients, and wolf run. All of which start and stop with dudes swinging, with not much else going on in between.

Sidenote: I think tokens will be super popular for a few weeks like solar flare was, until everyone realizes that WW humans/undying CA dot deck is just better.
Im not disappointed with the metagame. Im disappointed with wizards only fascilitating agro strategies, while leaving other styles of play out to dry. I wont hate on someone playing delver or what have you if it is clearly the best deck to play. I just detest the fact that there are so few options to combat agro aside from more agro. Before zen rotated there were at least 4 completely different top tier decks out that had very different strategies and ways to win aside from beats to the face. Now we have delver, haunted humans if it still exists/geist varients, and wolf run. All of which start and stop with dudes swinging, with not much else going on in between.

Sidenote: I think tokens will be super popular for a few weeks like solar flare was, until everyone realizes that WW humans/undying CA dot deck is just better.

Two variants of Caw Blade, Splinter Twin, and Valakut if you want to try you luck? I'll pass. Post-WorldWake was the worst standard ever. At least games against Affinity were quick.

(at)MrEnglish22

This is one of the most diverse standard formats ever.

The only thing really missing is a dedicated combo deck. And really, if you are complaining about "herp derp, i tap my creatures to win", I'd say non-interactive combo based decks are much less fun to play against or as.

Like just look at all the winning decks. Yes, there has been a lot of Delver recently, but before that we had Wolf Run dominating, and we had Solar Flare and U/B Control type decks, and Mono Red. I don't really know what more you can ask for.

DKA is looking like it will introduce a couple brand new archetypes to the current pool. Mono-black aggro, midrange R/G, B/W Tokens... Burning Vengeance has a lot more tools to make it work now. We got 4 new and pretty strong lords for each of the monster tribes. We have the Lich who could team up with Summoning to give us an actual combo deck.

I'm just curious as to the type of deck you want to play with OP. 
Ive assembled a post DKA 5cc burning vengence. All Im using out of DKA is faithless looting and ray of revelation.

Out of each of the decks you mentioned, only 1 was a dedicated control deck. And really, I dont consider the existence of UB or UW control to be all that breathtaking. As long as there are counters and kills someone will make a UB deck. The problem is that all of the straight up agro decks that exist right now got a ton of gas, while control strategy get Bone to ash? Its a letdown.

I dont mind agro. And I know its not 100% "Herp derp creatures win," but when all of the best decks turn out to be agro the game turns into a slugging match, and whoever wins is determined by creature production instead of something more meaningful like clever plays.
Creature based stuff is really boring. I will be buying 0 DKA aside from the 5 commons I need for my deck.

Who else is severely disappointed?



Since this game is pretty much entirely based on creatures... I'm not sure why you even like it in general. But I think this set is just as awesome as Innistrad was. Severely undisappointed. 



This wasn't always the case.

Of course I'm sure I've gone mad. The little man who crawled out of my eye was quite clear on this.
the game turns into a slugging match, and whoever wins is determined by creature production instead of something more meaningful like clever plays.



That is just silly. You are acting like creature based decks don't take skill.

Against other aggro decks, there is a lot of skill required to make the right attacking and blocking decisions. Against control decks, its about staying power and making sure you don't overcommit.

I don't see how smashing creatures down every turn is any different than land, pass, land, pass, counter, land, pass, counter, land, BIG creature. Like unless you are going for mill or direct damage (both uninteractive strategies), you gotta play creatures too.  

And as for your Burning Vengeance deck... Have you tried Secrets of the Dead, Altar of the Lost, Thought Scour?

I understand some complaining when there are cards like Stoneforge, JMS, Jitte, Skullclamp and the like that DOMINATE deck construction and turn decks into those that use those broken cards, and those that are designed to beat those cards. But complaining about a format where every month there is a new competitive deck, and the set that is about to released has numerous new deck building possibilities.

If you want to win tournaments, and having a competitive deck is all that matters to you, then you're going to have to make what works. If the type of deck that you want to play just isn't strong enough with the metagame and card pool, then you have to choose between your deck, and giving yourself the best deck to win in a very competitive environment.

And for the record, I have a good feeling someone will make a Burning Vengeance deck will at least be top 8 caliber within the next few months. 
If a burning vengeance deck so much as PLACES anywhere, grafdigger's cage will be in sideboards.  Also, I wouldn't play altar of the lost even IF I decided to play hatebait.dec.  It's also pretty slow for a deck in today's meta.

And control involves difficult decisions.  You can't counter or kill EVERYTHING, you need to be careful about when you tap out, and you need to choose the best answers at the best times.

Can we all just agree that groo doesn't have anything of value to say about serious competitive play? 



I second this agreement. We are all now in agreement Groo has nothing of value to say about serious competetive play. Especially if he thinks Burning Vengeance will have any sort of impact in the standard to come. Trinket Mage decks are going to see some play, I'm betting. Burning Vengeance just isn't as good as Lightning Rift (as much as I want it to be).

Also, ramp decks are the most boring thing to play against or with for me. They require no real thought beyond "herpaderp I'm going to ramp into Prime Titan." Tell me that isn't what they've been doing since Prime started getting played, and tell me that's not what they will keep doing as long as Prime keeps getting reprinted. Tell me Valakut wasn't the most non-interactive deck of the previous standard, and that Wolf Run isn't a contender, if not the winner, of that title for this one.

EDIT: And yes, I know my bias against ramp decks causes me to say that, but it is for the most part true. A ramp deck cares little for what a player does unless it directly affects them (IE counters).

(at)MrEnglish22

Counterspells have limits?? I can't just leave blue mana untapped, confident my opponent can't do anything next turn? What is this madness?

Ohh it's what's shaping up to be a decent standard environment... I guess that works. 

I admit cage hoses Pod (as if needed more vulnerabilities) which might have been the most skill intensive, tier 1.5 deck in the meta though. This makes me sad
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Counterspells have limits?? I can't just leave blue mana untapped, confident my opponent can't do anything next turn? What is this madness?

Ohh it's what's shaping up to be a decent standard environment... I guess that works. 

I admit cage hoses Pod (as if needed more vulnerabilities) which might have been the most skill intensive, tier 1.5 deck in the meta though. This makes me sad



G/b pod with undying creatures may have been good. No, not good, broken. But, the mana base isn't there to support g/b.
Im not too worried about cage. If someone wants to side in 4 silver bullets I have ratchet bombs and ancient grudges as quality answers to that threat. Its not even a major concern until I want to start winning. Vengence isnt exactly a "Wham bam heres all my threats on turn 3 lets race now," deck, so I have time to set up without having to immediately deal with something like cage.

Also groo all of those cards are pretty awful for this deck.
Counterspells have limits?? I can't just leave blue mana untapped, confident my opponent can't do anything next turn? What is this madness?

Ohh it's what's shaping up to be a decent standard environment... I guess that works. 

I admit cage hoses Pod (as if needed more vulnerabilities) which might have been the most skill intensive, tier 1.5 deck in the meta though. This makes me sad



G/b pod with undying creatures may have been good. No, not good, broken. But, the mana base isn't there to support g/b.



I'm not convinced of that. First of all, with 4 Expanse, Birds, 4 Cemetary, and maybe even some Grotto if necessary, GB is playable provided you're not trying to run Phyrexian Obliterator etc.

Second, I'm not actually convinced that Undying is that amazing as a core structure for Pod. Pod is about chaining up value using ETB effects. Most of the Undying creatures do not have useful effects, they're just decent fat. So while Pod is okay there, I feel you're getting close to the Heartmender+Day of Judgment+Persist decks' problems; by using Day of Judgment yourself, you're just stripping the benefit of having the recursion in the first place.

Similarly, if you're triggering the Undying abilities yourself, it means your opponent isn't forced to waste removal getting rid of them, and that's the biggest upside of Undying in the first place.

So no, not broken. 

Wizards for a long while has been pushing creatures far too much. They've made the gap between good and bad players much less, since you have so many cards that just change the entire game state in one move. These extra swingy cards means it's easy to draw a card that changes up the game.

There is less skill in standard than there once was. I find when I play thesedays, I don't have to make hardly any decisions, since the correct plays are always so obvious. With such efficient creatures, players don't have many chances to win back a game they're losing, or throw away a game they are winning.

Back in the days of faeries, sure they were good, but they were fragile and took some time to kill you, giving both players opportunities to outplay their opponent. Now, even a control deck just slaps down a titan and says go ahead, draw an answer in 2 turns or die.


There are sufficient spells to keep up with the creatures in the format, the creatures are abundant and provide a decent clock, but the spells you need specific answers and to draw them at the right time. It's very easy to just play out your curve and win. The one mana creatures are much better than the two mana removal spells, doomed traveller, young wolf, delver of secrets. To keep up with an aggro deck, you have to play cards that already put you behind, by having to tap out to kill a one drop whilst it clocks you with Vendillion Clique speed. And as soon as you try this, they just throw out another dude for you to deal with.


Standard hasn't been great for some time due to the design viewpoint of wizards at the moment. They want the gap between good and bad players to be smaller, so they intentionally make the format less skill intensive. Even during caw-blade time, the players who were winning SCG each week were doing so because they cheated, Edgar Flores for example, there's lots of video's of him brainstorming for four cards, and drawing 8 at the beginning of the game.
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Im not too worried about cage. If someone wants to side in 4 silver bullets I have ratchet bombs and ancient grudges as quality answers to that threat. Its not even a major concern until I want to start winning. Vengence isnt exactly a "Wham bam heres all my threats on turn 3 lets race now," deck, so I have time to set up without having to immediately deal with something like cage.

Also groo all of those cards are pretty awful for this deck.



Have you done extensive playtesting with all those cards to make the best Burning Vengeance deck you can make? I haven't, it's just brainstorming. But unless you have actually tried them, calling them awful is just ignorant, and shows you'd rather just complain about everything.
Im not too worried about cage. If someone wants to side in 4 silver bullets I have ratchet bombs and ancient grudges as quality answers to that threat. Its not even a major concern until I want to start winning. Vengence isnt exactly a "Wham bam heres all my threats on turn 3 lets race now," deck, so I have time to set up without having to immediately deal with something like cage.

Also groo all of those cards are pretty awful for this deck.



Have you done extensive playtesting with all those cards to make the best Burning Vengeance deck you can make? I haven't, it's just brainstorming. But unless you have actually tried them, calling them awful is just ignorant, and shows you'd rather just complain about everything.




You know what my first ever competive standard deck was? Astral Slide. You know what deck I -still- to this day have? Astral Slide. You know what I've tried SO many times to make work, because of its similaraties to Astral Slide? Burning Vengeance.

Unless something HUGE happens in the next set, it isn't going to be a T1 deck. I'm going to build a version of it anyway, but right now I'd rather play mono-blue over Burning Vengaeance. That style of deck where you just CA your opponent out of the game just doesn't have a chance when someone can windmill slam a Thrun or Titan and make all your work moot. 

(at)MrEnglish22

Im not too worried about cage. If someone wants to side in 4 silver bullets I have ratchet bombs and ancient grudges as quality answers to that threat. Its not even a major concern until I want to start winning. Vengence isnt exactly a "Wham bam heres all my threats on turn 3 lets race now," deck, so I have time to set up without having to immediately deal with something like cage.

Also groo all of those cards are pretty awful for this deck.



Have you done extensive playtesting with all those cards to make the best Burning Vengeance deck you can make? I haven't, it's just brainstorming. But unless you have actually tried them, calling them awful is just ignorant, and shows you'd rather just complain about everything.




You know what my first ever competive standard deck was? Astral Slide. You know what deck I -still- to this day have? Astral Slide. You know what I've tried SO many times to make work, because of its similaraties to Astral Slide? Burning Vengeance.

Unless something HUGE happens in the next set, it isn't going to be a T1 deck. I'm going to build a version of it anyway, but right now I'd rather play mono-blue over Burning Vengaeance. That style of deck where you just CA your opponent out of the game just doesn't have a chance when someone can windmill slam a Thrun or Titan and make all your work moot. 



So now Thrun and Titans are the bad guys? I thought it was all the aggro?

And so have you tried Secrets of the Dead and Altar of the Lost and any of those other DA goodies?

But that is besides the point anyways. It might never hit T1. But you can make a competitive deck out of it, and probably do well playing with your friends and at FNMs and the like. And as I said before, that is when you need to make your decision. If winning every game is all that matters to you, and you have PT aspirations, then you are going to have to play decks that you don't LOVE. That's what competitive gaming is about. Every game is like that. 


So now Thrun and Titans are the bad guys? I thought it was all the aggro?

And so have you tried Secrets of the Dead and Altar of the Lost and any of those other DA goodies?

But that is besides the point anyways. It might never hit T1. But you can make a competitive deck out of it, and probably do well playing with your friends and at FNMs and the like. And as I said before, that is when you need to make your decision. If winning every game is all that matters to you, and you have PT aspirations, then you are going to have to play decks that you don't LOVE. That's what competitive gaming is about. Every game is like that. 



Um, you are dumb. Or, you lack reading comprehension. I was talking about why Burning Vengance doesn't work, and not what the problem is with standard. And Thrun and the Titans ARE a part of the problem, to be on that topic.
And yes, I -have- tried it with Secrets of the Dead and Altar of the Lost. I was testing with Secrets of the Dead before the set started spoiling (granted, I was testing it at 2 CMC which makes more sense, but it was so obvious that the enchantment was going to be printed that you could still test with it). You would know how good Burning Vengeance decks were if you actually playtested them, unless you are just trolling.
So what IS the point? Maybe its not like this at your FNMs and among friends, but we actually play to win. We still (sometimes) have fun when we lose, but you don't play Magic wanting to lose most of the time. It isn't playing decks that I don't LOVE, its having to play against stupid, boring decks constantly. Wolf Run Ramp and Valakut are THE MOST BORING decks to play with or against in almost all of Magic, and while they may not be considered "aggro," they still consist of highly powerful creatures that you cannot do much, or anything against.

EDIT: Also yes, Burning Vengance has a bad matchup against aggro. 

(at)MrEnglish22


So what IS the point? Maybe its not like this at your FNMs and among friends, but we actually play to win. We still (sometimes) have fun when we lose, but you don't play Magic wanting to lose most of the time.



I play to win, everyone plays to win. There is a difference between playing the best possible deck in the format, and playing a deck you love that is good, but just has a lower power level. That doesn't mean you don't want to win.

And if we are talking about boring... Creature decks are the most interactive decks you can play against and with. I haven't actually played against a Burning Vengeance deck before, but from the looks of it, it would be one of the most uninteractive decks I can imagine playing against in this format.

Good creatures aren't going away. It is what the game is based on. Anything else is generally alternate ways to win. And while non-creature strategies are supported, they will rarely be the focus. If you don't like that, stop playing.

So what IS the point? Maybe its not like this at your FNMs and among friends, but we actually play to win. We still (sometimes) have fun when we lose, but you don't play Magic wanting to lose most of the time.



I play to win, everyone plays to win. There is a difference between playing the best possible deck in the format, and playing a deck you love that is good, but just has a lower power level. That doesn't mean you don't want to win.

And if we are talking about boring... Creature decks are the most interactive decks you can play against and with. I haven't actually played against a Burning Vengeance deck before, but from the looks of it, it would be one of the most uninteractive decks I can imagine playing against in this format.

Good creatures aren't going away. It is what the game is based on. Anything else is generally alternate ways to win. And while non-creature strategies are supported, they will rarely be the focus. If you don't like that, stop playing.



You should probably look into some old videos of Astral Slide. That is the level of interactivity I would expect from Burning Vengance decks if I were to play them. And if that's what you call non-interactive, then you don't really understand what the word interactive means. I want my spells to all INTERACT with what you are doing. And trust me, I understand not playing the T1 deck if I enjoy playing it. I played Naya Pyromancer's during Zendikar Block.
But when I pay to play in a tournament, I don't plan on playing some random jank, and I don't plan on playing against some random jank.
And no, the game isn't based on good creatures. Its based on two Planeswalkers in a duel. I'd rather be the one doing the dueling, instead of a bunch of thugs. If you had been playing that long, you might know that wasn't until realtively recently that Wizards started printing game-breaking creatures. That's what a lot of players have issue with. Back-breaking creatures that you can't respond to except for playing even bigger ones. It becomes a situation of "I play a 5/5, you play a 6/6, I play a 7/7, and if you don't draw a 7/7 or 8/8 I'm just going to win because I know how to turn my guys sideways." THAT is boring. And yes, that's an exaggeration, but not too far from the truth. 

(at)MrEnglish22

You should probably look into some old videos of Astral Slide. That is the level of interactivity I would expect from Burning Vengance decks if I were to play them. And if that's what you call non-interactive, then you don't really understand what the word interactive means. I want my spells to all INTERACT with what you are doing. And trust me, I understand not playing the T1 deck if I enjoy playing it. I played Naya Pyromancer's during Zendikar Block.
But when I pay to play in a tournament, I don't plan on playing some random jank, and I don't plan on playing against some random jank.
And no, the game isn't based on good creatures. Its based on two Planeswalkers in a duel. I'd rather be the one doing the dueling, instead of a bunch of thugs. If you had been playing that long, you might know that wasn't until realtively recently that Wizards started printing game-breaking creatures. That's what a lot of players have issue with. Back-breaking creatures that you can't respond to except for playing even bigger ones. It becomes a situation of "I play a 5/5, you play a 6/6, I play a 7/7, and if you don't draw a 7/7 or 8/8 I'm just going to win because I know how to turn my guys sideways." THAT is boring. And yes, that's an exaggeration, but not too far from the truth. 



Since the game started it has been like this. You have 20 life. Direct damage, life loss and creatures make that life go down. When your opponent hits zero, you win. Direct damage is almost exclusive to red. Life loss is almost exclusive to black. Creatures are in all colours. The game is based around using creatures to kill your opponent.

I have been playing this game on and off for almost 15 years. So it's not like I don't know the evolution of cards. The game has come a long way, and I think it is in the best place ever. Innistrad block is already up there with my other two favourite blocks, Invasion and Ravnica, which I'm sure many would agree as being among the best blocks ever made.


Since the game started it has been like this. You have 20 life. Direct damage, life loss and creatures make that life go down. When your opponent hits zero, you win. Direct damage is almost exclusive to red. Life loss is almost exclusive to black. Creatures are in all colours. The game is based around using creatures to kill your opponent.

I have been playing this game on and off for almost 15 years. So it's not like I don't know the evolution of cards. The game has come a long way, and I think it is in the best place ever. Innistrad block is already up there with my other two favourite blocks, Invasion and Ravnica, which I'm sure many would agree as being among the best blocks ever made.



Sure, the game has always had those core pieces, but that doesn't mean its the same as it was when it started. The game plays very differently nowadays than it used to.
I started playing 2001, and since then, Ravnica, Odyssey, and Kamigawa were my favorite blocks. While I don't have a problem particularly with Innistrad the set itself, I have a problem with the Standard enviroments Wizards has been creating lately (intentionally or not), and I'm holding out on the rest of Innistrad block before I pass judgment, but I don't see a huge shift incoming.

(at)MrEnglish22

Counterspells have limits?? I can't just leave blue mana untapped, confident my opponent can't do anything next turn? What is this madness?

Ohh it's what's shaping up to be a decent standard environment... I guess that works. 

I admit cage hoses Pod (as if needed more vulnerabilities) which might have been the most skill intensive, tier 1.5 deck in the meta though. This makes me sad



G/b pod with undying creatures may have been good. No, not good, broken. But, the mana base isn't there to support g/b.



I'm not convinced of that. First of all, with 4 Expanse, Birds, 4 Cemetary, and maybe even some Grotto if necessary, GB is playable provided you're not trying to run Phyrexian Obliterator etc.

Second, I'm not actually convinced that Undying is that amazing as a core structure for Pod. Pod is about chaining up value using ETB effects. Most of the Undying creatures do not have useful effects, they're just decent fat. So while Pod is okay there, I feel you're getting close to the Heartmender+Day of Judgment+Persist decks' problems; by using Day of Judgment yourself, you're just stripping the benefit of having the recursion in the first place.

Similarly, if you're triggering the Undying abilities yourself, it means your opponent isn't forced to waste removal getting rid of them, and that's the biggest upside of Undying in the first place.

So no, not broken. 



I have to disagree, expanse and grotto are tempo killers. Also, the curve for g/b is perfect and the creatures may not be your typical pod fodder etb creatures but, they're strong, purposeful, beatdown machines that give tremendous advantage at every mana slot.

The question at hand is:  can you race u/w aggro?  They can counter and bounce your creatures while swinging in with evasive and efficient creatures of their own. 


It's tough to say without playing the deck. I would say yes mainly because of the wide variety of removal you'll have playing black.
(edited: baiting)

I think that g/w is going to HAVE to be relevant, or maybe even Naya. Ray of Revelation shuts down Token Decks rather handily, and removal is going to be at an even higher premium than it used to.
But I think I'm just going to stick to limited for the forseeable future. Or Turbo-Fog.

(at)MrEnglish22

(edited: baiting)

Well, like you said, creatures are used in most control decks to win. And in STANDARD, they have said on the record that they do not like to have combo decks, because they are too hard to control in such a small format.

U/B Control, and Burning Vengeance are two decks you could play without using creatures as your win condition. U/B Control is a very competitive deck from what I've seen, and after this weekend, maybe we'll see someone having figured out a really good BV with all the new cards.
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You are such a troll ORC_Booker!