New rogue needs help

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Hey guys!
Started out playing D&D 3.5 with some friends but never played D&D before so I don't know what rogues are capable here and mine seems kind of lackluster from the start.

What's most important to me is when to pick a secondary class and which are possible.
Our GM only allows us to take a class after activly training for it, for example to take mage classes you have to visit some kind of mage school ingame and study there except you can use magic from the start (the greatest requirement in my opinion, something like warrior would be much easier to pick). Some hints on necessary feats would be great, too.
I have both player handbooks and all the complete books available for building my char.


I became a male lvl 3 human rogue last time we played but didn't level up until now.

Right now I got the following attributes:
Strength: 10
Agility: 16
Constitution: 11
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 16

My perks are two weapon fighting and quickdraw, and I'm planning to take weapon finesse at my third lvl. Afterwards the improved two weapon fighting skills.

I don't really now which skills I have to max because I have no idea for my secondary class so right now I'm just getting the normal rogue stuff.
Until now we just had 2 quests, one without fighting where stuff like diplomacy and sense motiv where importent, the other was a dungeon, where fighting abilitys, vision in the dark, jump and swimmung were really useful. Looks like our GM wants to make every skill useful. No kind of magic devices or magical items where found until now, so they seem to be pretty rare and expensive.


I thought about taking up masterspy as a prestige class later on but I think it's hard to play as part of a nonrogue party. Assasin is impossible because I'm chaotic neutral and not evil and casters are to hard to get ingame. Please consider that a class that could require hard training (in the opinion of my GM) could take several levels to take up...

Any kind of help would be really useful!!
Don't take the Improved+ TWF feats unless you have close to full BAB (fighters, rangers, etc)
If you want to go that route, I suggest (starting at level 4!) that you take levels in Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) with the Daring Outlaw feat (Complete Champion) at level 6.  If you can change your ability scores a bit, I would suggest dropping your Cha by 2 and raising your Int by the same number, if you go that route.

Unfortunately, one of the better TWF Rogue Prestige classes is worthless for you.  Daggerspell Mage (Complete Adventurer) is pretty sexy, but you'll need a much higher Int for it to be worthwhile.

Your alignment won't be a problem getting into assassin.  The "Special" prereq for entering the class should be enough to push you from Neutral to evil.  Plus, killing the innocent just to be able to enter the class is definitely evil.  And it might also qualify as your "training".  You'll want to boost your Int if you go this route, too.  IIRC, Assassin casting is Int-based.  If it's Cha-based, then don't change anything if you go this route.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I think Daggerspell Mage would be really hard to become with our GM. To get that I would have had to start as a caster.
Assasin could be possible if you look at it that was. But I have to ask my GM if killing an innocent pearson sets my alingment to evil. I don't think I would need additional "training" after doing that.

If you say taking swashbuckler with level 4 are you thinking of taking the second sneak attack and some other feat (not weapon finesse because you get it when taking swashbuckler) with level 3 and bringing it to level 3 for Insightful Strike? Or would you go any further to improved flanking or even higher?

But I don't know if my GM would allow me swaping around attribute points. Maybe I could ask him if I can move 2 from charisma to something else (except agility), because it's my first time on d&d and I had not much time to look into characters before while the rest played d&d for some time now (only played vampires and savage world before).
If you say taking swashbuckler with level 4 are you thinking of taking the second sneak attack and some other feat (not weapon finesse because you get it when taking swashbuckler) with level 3 and bringing it to level 3 for Insightful Strike? Or would you go any further to improved flanking or even higher?

I meant start Swashbuckler at your next level (character level 4).  Take that for as many levels as you wish.  And never end with an even number of levels in rogue. 
But I don't know if my GM would allow me swaping around attribute points. Maybe I could ask him if I can move 2 from charisma to something else (except agility), because it's my first time on d&d and I had not much time to look into characters before while the rest played d&d for some time now (only played vampires and savage world before).

If he does allow it, then use your ability boosts (you can add one point to any ability score you wish at every character level divisible by 4) to raise your Dex.  With the good BAB you get from Swashbuckler, it becomes worth it.  IIRC, insightful strike is only usable in light or no armor.  If it's no armor, invest in Barcers of Armor.  They'll give you a boost to your Armor Class, but they don't count as armor.  Also, there's a Prestige Class in Complete Warrior that you might want to check out if you go Swashbuckler/Rogue.  But I can't remember the name.  The Duelist, maybe?  It gives you more advantages if you're in no armor and using a limited selection of weapons (dagger, kukri, and punching dagger - kukri is the best of these).
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Read the section about the duelist a few min ago and it sounds quiete interessting. Unfortunately the Presice Strike abillity of the dualist unables an offhand attack what's not really good with my dual wielding. Additionaly some class specials are identic with some of the swashbuckler.
I don't know if Gace of the swashbuckler stacks with Grace of the duelist and both get the abillity Acrobatic charge.

Thanks for the hint with the Bracers of Armor, trying to keep that in mind. But unfortunately don't know if kukris are available in our setting.

Won't i lack behind in damage if I skip to many levels in rogue because the sneak attack get's to weak?
Won't i lack behind in damage if I skip to many levels in rogue because the sneak attack get's to weak?

Not with the Daring Outlaw feat that I mentioned in post #2.  It lets your Swashbuckler levels stack with your rogue levels for determining how much damage your sneak attack does.  Heck, you could even do swashbuckler for a few levels and then go into Assassin.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
A note: I might be mistaken about the book in which you'll find Daring Outlaw.  I do know that it's in EITHER the Complete Champion or Complete Scoundrel.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Sorry, completely forgot to look it up earlier. Well with that swashbuckler becomes a greate choice in my opinion. I think I will go with that and consider becoming duelist or assasin later on in the game.
Thanks for all the help!

Edit: by the way, the swashbuckler is found in complete warrior whereas Daring Outlaw is found in the complete scoundrel. Kinda weird to split these up :>

Edit 2: Are there some feats I have to take as a dual wielding rogue/swashbuckler (like Daring Outlaw)  or some that look good but I shouldn't take (like improved DW)?

Edit 3: Read the feats right now, feats I consider are: combat expertise (player's handbook) for deft strike, deft strike (complete adventurer), dual strike (complete adventurer), Impruved diversion (complete adventurer), savvy rogue (complete scoundrel) because I'm thinking of taking 10 levels in rogue for defensive role, merciful strike (complete scoundrel), Two-Weapon Defense (player's handbook), Dodge (player's handbook), Mobility (player's handbook) and Weapon focus daggers (player's handbook) and the followups. Maybe any opinions to these?
If you are taking Dodge and Mobility you should consider go for shadowdancer. Most of the rogues don't go for it because of this feats, but if you are already going to take them already you should take it. It gives Hide in plain sight at level 1, which is very good defensively, as well as defensive roll, improved evasion and slippery mind. Shadow jump gives you some mobility. The shadow will be your always flanking buddy
Wait what? Rogues are terrible if they are not two weapon fighting, take improved and greater.  Rogue 20 is never bad, one of the few classes. That said if you can do daring outlaw thats better. 

Dont neglect the use magic device skill. Buy some wands  and throw out utility helpful buffs. 

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Personaly I would never take rogue all the way to 20. Honestly just rogue 3/ swashbuckler 17 would be so much better, but I would never do that either.

I would probably go Rogue 3/ Warlock 2/ Unseen Seer 5/ Daggerspell Mage 10 if you want casting with charisma.

If you don't want casting then Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Shadowdancer 1/ Nightsong Enforcer 1/ Guild Theif 3/ Something else 5 is a good choice.

My favorite rogue build is Rogue 3/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Guild Theif 3/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6/ Nightsong Enforcer 1/ Ronin 1/ Swashbuckler 5 with the feats craven, martial stance: assassin's stance, and daring outlaw.

Actually my all time favorite rogue build is Factotum 11/ Chameleon 9 but thats not applicable.
Right now I thought off going 10 levels in rogue for the special feat defense roll, and at last 3 points in swashbuckler for insightful strike. After that I'M thinking of going Duelist (for max 4 levels). I don't know what to do with the last 3 points until now... Maybe I'm not getting all the 10 levels in rogue and take some assasin instead...

Dodge and Mobility are needed for the Duelist. Are these feats overall usefull or are there better choices? What about the imp. Two weapon fighting should I take it because of the extra chance of sneak attacks or is my BAB to low? Is it worth it to go 10 levels rogue for defensive roll or is this special feat not as good as I expect? What about thinks like dual strike or two weapon defense?

I think the max I could take are 4 classes when I'm taking no mage class. So to fancy builds won't be possible. And I was allowed to switch charisma with intelligence, so right now I have 16 int and 12 charisma (cause first time playing and I didn't know that int is more important.

Edit 1: Can't find the shadow dancer, can anyone tell me the book it's in?
Personaly I would never take rogue all the way to 20. Honestly just rogue 3/ swashbuckler 17 would be so much better, but I would never do that either.

 The main reason I would never do rogue 20 is because the 20th level is a dead level. There are reasons to prefer rogue 20 over the Daring Outlaw build you list, though - most notably more skill points, a better skill list, and rogue special abilites and/or bonus feats. Plus the underrated example of 20 levels of Improved Uncanny Dodge - not only does Rogue 20 utterly shut down other sneak attakers most of the time, but he also uniquely bypasses other improved uncanny dodgers. Nothing in the game, to my knowledge, ever stacked with rogue levels for bypassing Improved Uncanny Dodge. (it's situational, but when you can unlock Improved Uncanny Dodge very early by stacking two Uncanny Dodgers together, you render yourself completely immune to flanking by Daring Outlaws.)

Right now I thought off going 10 levels in rogue for the special feat defense role, and at last 3 points in swashbuckler for insightful strike. After that I'M thinking of going Duelist (for max 4 levels). I Dont know what to do with the last 3 points until now... Maybe I'm not getting all the 10 levels in rogue and take some assasin instead...


First, Defensive Roll isn't all that hot. If you're in a situation where your hit points are dropping that fast at level 10, you're not paying attention to your defense or your DM is springing surprises on you. And honestly, by the time Defensive Roll kicks in, you're probably having more of a threat from save-or-die effects than from hit point damage. (The only real sources of hit point damage that matters at that level or above, barring a few very notable minority cases like Disintegrate, are Reflex-save spells (you have Evasion, and can get Improved Evasion), Sneak Attack (you have Improved Uncanny Dodge), and Power Attack (a problem for you, but you usually rely on stealth or your teammates to keep Power Attackers off of you).)

Duelist is also a trap class, believe it or not. The concept is great, the execution not so much. I'll go into more detail when I get the chance.

Dodge and Mobility are needed for the Duelist. Are these feats overall usefull or are there better choices? What about the imp. Two weapon fighting should I take it because of the extra chance of sneak attacks or is my BAB to low? Is it worth it to go 10 levels rogue for defensive role or is this special feat not as good as I expect? What about thinks like dual strike or two weapon defense?


1) Dodge and Mobility usually aren't too useful. Dodge is great as a prerequisite, but as a feat isn't all that good - there are a few feats out there that actually substitute for it, and most of the time they're better choices (Desert Wind Dodge, Midnight Dodge, and one other one from Races of the Wild which I can never remember). Mobility is rendered all but useless by the Tumble skill if you can reliably hit DC 20 or so (and that's with penalties) - the only use it has after that is against Thicket of Blades users. You can also get Mobility from a suit of armor (the Mobility armor enhancement in the Magic Item Compendium). Mobility leads the way to Spring Attack, which can be useful for rogues, but isn't compatible with two-weapon fighting. (It's best to combine this with Staggering Strike or Gloom Razor.)

If you're doing Spring Attack, though, you might want to consider going all the way to Complete Warrior's Elusive Target feat - that feat alone makes these prerequisites amazing. (It's fun to use, but its most dramatic ability is also its most innocuous: it completely shuts down Power Attack from your dodge target (note: won't work without a targeted Dodge feat, so don't use the Races of the Wild substitution). See why Defensive Roll isn't so hot?)

2) Improved TWF is actually worth it. I know it was claimed not to be earlier, but I ran the numbers in a long debate thread a while ago; if your sneak attack is high, the extra attack is amazing, even at a low attack bonus. In fact, I found that a classic Rogue 20 got more mileage out of Greater TWF than he did out of Craven (add your level to sneak attack damage), and Craven is one of the better sneak attacker feats. And that's with a straightforward +15 base attack Rogue 20. (Granted, if you do a small swashbuckler dip with a few other full base attack levels, you can get to +16, and that really helps.)

3) See above on Defensive Roll. The usual goodies on the rogue special abilities are Crippling Strike (especially on TWFers; note that an opponent with 0 Strength falls to the ground and can't move. You can augment this further with the use of the Strength of My Enemy power in the XPH or the SRD), Improved Evasion (although this is situational, it's still awesome), and Slippery Mind (particularly on pure rogue builds). Occasionally using it for bonus feats is worth it as well, particularly since the rogue can select any feat he qualifies for with those feats.

4) Dual Strike is a feat I'm not familiar with. Usually speaking, though, the Two-Weapon Defense feats are useless. Shield bonuses aren't bad, but the amount you gain from the feats is trivial - most of the time you're better off boosting your AC through means which improve your other abilities (particularly Dexterity - the increase to stealth skills, Weapon Finesse, Reflex save (with Evasion) and Initiative score tend to outweigh the fact that the improved AC is bypassed if you're flat-footed (note Uncanny Dodge). In fact, since your Dexterity is rather high to begin with, if something catches you flat-footed, it's almost always going to hit you anyway, Two-Weapon Defense or not.)

"Classic" rogue feats include the Two-Weapon Fighting tree, Craven (+level on sneak attack damage), Shadow Blade (Tome of Battle; add Dexterity to damage with specific weapons while using specific stances from that book; the short sword is on that list and is one of the best rogue weapons anyway), Martial Stance (either Island of Blades, to flank at any angle, or Assassin's Stance, for an extra +2d6 sneak attack), Elusive Target (as listed above; it's in Complete Warrior. Whether it's worth it or not depends on how many free feats you have.), Gloom Razor (Tome of Battle tactical feat, includes abilities that let you misdirect targets and strike from the shadows), and Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer, denies your target actions after you sneak attack them). Occasionally you will find ambush feats in there as well. Rarely will you find feats that focus on a single attack, except in a few weird Spring Attack situations (usually combined with Gloom Razor).

I think the max I could take are 4 classes when I'm taking no mage class. So to fancy builds won't be possible. And I was allowed to switch charisma with intelligence, so right now I have 16 int and 12 charisma (cause first time playing and I didn't know that int is more important.


For a rogue, I'd value Charisma over Intelligence, but look at which skills you're looking to use first, and whether or not you're going swashbuckler. Charisma edges out Intelligence in a general rogue for me because of Use Magic Device, primarily, along with a handful of other good skills (Diplomacy and Bluff particularly), and 8 skill points is plenty for most characters. If you're a primary skillmonkey and want to cover a LOT of roles, or if your team is skill-deficient, though, an Int-based rogue is amazing - doubly so with swashbuckler.

Edit 1: Can't find the shadow dancer, can anyone tell me the book it's in?


DMG. Turn a few pages past the assassin and duelist.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

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Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Other classes to look at are the invisible blade and the Nightsong Enforcer.

Tempest, I find it hard to believe that +12d6 on one extra attack is worth +20 on ALL other attacks. (Your comment about GTWF being better then Craven).


==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Dual Strike is a feat found in complete adventurer, it allows you to attack with both weapons as a standard action (using one attack roll). So sneak attack damage just counts ones.

My main problem still is the class composition.
Until know I decided to take Swashbuckler up at level 4 and go 3 rogue 3 swashbuckler for starters.
Then I'd like to take the Daring Outlaw feat at level 6.
Until then I'll have weapon finess, quickdraw, two weapon fighting, Daring Outlaw and a level 3 feat which I still haven't choosen.

In my opinion the important levels on swashbuckler are 1 (weapon finesse), 2 (Grace +1 for daring outlaw), 3 (insightful strike) and 8 (improved flanking). So in my opinion it would be better to go there until one of this levels. But I think I'm underestimating the BAB a little.

For rogue I'd thinking of going up until improved uncanny dodge (level 8) or up to the special abillities. I think improved uncanny dodge is to much to miss out or not?

Furthermore if taking Daring Outlaw I should put quite some levels into these two classes to make the feat worth it.

The big question is if I should take up another (prestige) class which shouldn't be too high (because of Daring outlaw) or should feature sneak attacks.

As stated above the duelist doesn't seem that good and the shadowdancer requires dodge and mobility which seem to be not as strong as other feats, additionally my character is male so it wouldn't fit that good.

Right now I'm thinking about an assasin. Maybe 8 levels to get hide in plain sight, I also would get some sneak attacks there and improved uncanny dodge which would mean 3 levels in rogue (to take up sneak attack +2d6 for Daring Outlaw) would be enough.
Maybe rogue 3, swashbuckler 8, Assasin 9.
This would leave me at a +11d6 sneak attack at level 20, a decent HP pool, good reflex and fortitude saves, hide in plain sight, improved uncanny dodge and improved flanking. As well as a nice amount of skill point and acces to the int based assassin spells.

With no feats needed for assassin i could just take the two improved dual wield feats as well as Island of blades, shadow blade and staggering strike. Or even Gloom razer and Craven instead of Island of blades and shadow blade.

But won't I die instantly without any survivabillity feats? Or would this be a good choice?

Thanks for answering all my questions, you're really helping me out a lot :>

Edit:
I found the Invisible blade in complete warrior right now and it seems quite interesting. The only problems I see are that you need the feats Far shot, Point blank shot and weapon focus daggers. If I take up daring outlaw at level 6 and one of those at levels 3, 9 and 12 I could become an invisible blade at level 13 with 2 feats to go (Maybe improved dual wielding or craven and gloom razer/staggering strike).

The 3 must have feats for invisible blade don't seem to be that good in my opinion and I would need uncanny dodge from the rogue what means that I'd need to take 8 levels rogue leaving 7 levels for swashbuckler what's 1 level short of improved flanking.

But I would still have +11d6 sneak attack damage with that path and unfettered defense as well as uncanny feint which seem to be really awesome.

I assume far shot and point blank shot supports the throwing of daggers. Is that even worth it?

Edit 2:
Read up the nightsong enforcer, too. Dont think it will be possible to take up in our setting but I habe to talk with the GM about it.
Nothing in the game, to my knowledge, ever stacked with rogue levels for bypassing Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Assassin does, IIRC.
Edit:
I found the Invisible blade in complete warrior right now and it seems quite interesting. The only problems I see are that you need the feats Far shot, Point blank shot and weapon focus daggers. If I take up daring outlaw at level 6 and one of those at levels 3, 9 and 12 I could become an invisible blade at level 13 with 2 feats to go (Maybe improved dual wielding or craven and gloom razer/staggering strike).

The 3 must have feats for invisible blade don't seem to be that good in my opinion and I would need uncanny dodge from the rogue what means that I'd need to take 8 levels rogue leaving 7 levels for swashbuckler what's 1 level short of improved flanking.

But I would still have +11d6 sneak attack damage with that path and unfettered defense as well as uncanny feint which seem to be really awesome.

I assume far shot and point blank shot supports the throwing of daggers. How does that work and is it worth it? What amount of BAB do I loose when throwing a dagger?

This is actually the one I meant; I gave you the wrong name.  Sorry.
The class is obviously meant for melee (I think there's one class ability for thrown weapons).  Ask if you can swap out WF (dagger) for WF (any allowed IB weapon) and Far Shot and PB Shot for (for example) Weapon Finesse and TWF and lose that single class ability.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Other classes to look at are the invisible blade and the Nightsong Enforcer.


Invisible Blade, less so after errata limited it to one feint per round. It's not bad, but it's not exceptional either. Although the original version of the class is a bit better.

(For Hinato's sake: Famously, it was a 10-level class in the original form, which explains why its prerequisites are so wonky. The author, Kolja Raven Liquette, published the 10-level version on his personal website, along with the original versions of the Occult Slayer and the Reaping Mauler (which were also 10-level PrCs; most early 3.5 PrCs were 10-level ones just by force of habit. Development probably shrunk them since they're so specialized). The site is since offline, but the web remembers everything - check the sidebar.)

Good call on the Nightsong Enforcer, though. Any class with full base attack and essentially full sneak attack is a force to be reckoned with.

Tempest, I find it hard to believe that +12d6 on one extra attack is worth +20 on ALL other attacks. (Your comment about GTWF being better then Craven).


So did I, but that was one of the calculations I ran in our long TWF argument thread a while back. When I originally came up with that basic rogue build, I included Craven instead of Greater TWF, but Greater TWF substantially outperformed it, even if Craven multiplied on a critical hit. Basically, the base damage of +12d6 (10d6+Assassin's Stance) is so substantial that even the low chance to hit from a Greater TWF sixth attack on a +15 base attack class adds more expected damage to the pile than +20 scaled over five attacks. It was one of the blew-my-mind finds on that thread.

Mind you, most of those rogue builds had room for Craven as well, so by no means was it mutually exclusive. Against foes with very high AC, or at lower levels (but not too low; rogues have to qualify for greater TWF eventually), Craven may very well outperform it as a choice, and it remains solid even at the lower levels.


Dual Strike is a feat found in complete adventurer, it allows you to attack with both weapons as a standard action (using one attack roll). So sneak attack damage just counts ones.


I remember it now. Probably not worth it, since precision damage (sneak attack) would only apply once. Furthermore, Spring Attack would be the natural way to use this well - but Spring Attack, unlike its cousin Flyby Attack, doesn't work with standard actions.

My main problem still is the class composition.
Until know I decided to take Swashbuckler up at level 4 and go 3 rogue 3 swashbuckler for starters.
Then I'd like to take the Daring Outlaw feat at level 6.
Until then I'll have weapon finess, quickdraw, two weapon fighting, Daring Outlaw and a level 3 feat which I still haven't choosen.


Consider Swashbuckler slightly earlier than that - you get Weapon Finesse for free. Rogues normally have to wait for level 3 to take it; a Rogue 1 / Swashbuckler 1 gets it one level earlier.

In my opinion the important levels on swashbuckler are 1 (weapon finesse), 2 (Grace +1 for daring outlaw), 3 (insightful strike) and 8 (improved flanking). So in my opinion it would be better to go there until one of this levels. But I think I'm underestimating the BAB a little.


Normally Swashbuckler is only dipped to 3 levels (or 4 if you use the Dead Levels ability, which is actually very good despite the overall terrible quality of those articles).  But yes, in general, new players don't immediately see the benefit of high base attack - it isn't flashy like Insightful Strike, but it really helps.

Personally, I'd suggest NOT planning it out fully - or planning it out on a contingency basis. Just start playing at whatever low level you're starting at, and see what part of the character you like. If you find yourself relying on Sneak Attack over your skills and other abilities, and you've got the rogue abilities you want, take more Swashbuckler. If you find yourself acting as the team's skill base, and like the more exotic abilities found on the rogue, go more Rogue. Generally speaking Swashbuckler benefits more from Daring Outlaw (high base attack + Sneak Attack) than rogue does (already good Reflex doesn't benefit from Grace, and although the AC bonus is nice, it's tiny).

For rogue I'd thinking of going up until improved uncanny dodge (level 8) or up to the special abillities. I think improved uncanny dodge is to much to miss out or not?


That depends on your opponents. If you're outnumbered a lot or fighting rogue-type opponents, it's an invaluable ability. If you're not, or if you aren't engaging in melee combat much, it can be deadweight. Play a bit and see if you find yourself getting flanked.

The big question is if I should take up another (prestige) class which shouldn't be too high (because of Daring outlaw) or should feature sneak attacks.

As stated above the duelist doesn't seem that good and the shadowdancer requires dodge and mobility which seem to be not as strong as other feats, additionally my character is male so it wouldn't fit that good.

The class isn't inherently female, and there's plenty of amazing male dancers in fantasy. In fact, there isn't really a gender divide in several cultures or dancelike styles - the most obvious examples I can think of come from Chinese martial arts (seriously, search up videos on various kata and you'll see what I mean).  There's a couple of ways to turn Perform (Dance) into a mechanical death machine as well - most obviously the bardic feat Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) and the Dervish prestige class (Complete Warrior).

(There's also the B-Boy Kalashtar, which is kind of silly and in a hazy mechanical area, but memorable.)

Do I have to max use magic device? Because all these scrolls seem rather expansive... Are these used all the time at D&D?


UMD is used for far more than scrolls. It lets you use wands and bypass restrictions on most other items. 

The classic example for rogues comes from Complete Adventurer; the spell in question was reprinted in the Spell Compendium. Complete Adventurer offers a "wand chamber" for +100gp; this lets you slot a wand into your weapon and treat the wand as being in your hand while you hold the weapon. The wand you want is Wraithstrike (Sor/Wiz 2); it's a swift-action spell (meaning using the wand is a swift action - check the Rules Compendium to be certain) that turns all your attacks for 1 round into touch attacks (which more than makes up for your low attack bonus; touch attacks have a tendency to hit all but the fastest characters). 

Be warned: Wraithstrike is widely considered ridiculously strong (to the point of possibly breaking the game) if used in this capacity. But there are other options as well.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

The problem is that if I want to take up a prestige class I have to choose now because I have to choose the needed feats as soon as possible.

To the invisible blade: I couldn't find a class abillity for throwing weapons and I doubt my GM would allow me a change of prerequisites.
Here my conclusion right now:

The shadowdancer
The abilities look quite nice and allow me to take less levels in rogue because I get uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge here. Additionally I would get hide in plain sight what is really nice, same goes for slippery mind. But I have to take combat reflexes, dodge and mobility as feats which would allow me to take up shadowdancer at level 13 (if i take Daring outlaw at level 6, otherwise I can take it with level 10) what makes improved evasion unreachable. Also with daring outlaw the rogue/swashbuckler level would be 12 which would leave me with a 6xd6 sneak attack.
--> Best abilities, weakest sneack attacks, low number of choosable feats, lowest benefit from daring outlaw

The invisible blade
Unfettered defense as well as uncanny feint seem to be really good abillities. With the invisible blade the damage output would be really high because of +11d6 sneack attacks and my BAB would be quite high because I'd take more levels in swashbuckler with this path. But I'd have to take Far shot, Point blank shot and weapon focus daggers and would be missing 1 level of swashbuckler for improved flanking.
--> Quite good abilities, good sneak attacks, low number of choosable feats, have to choose weak feats, good BAB, good effect from daring outlaw

The assasin
I don't need any feats as an assasin and get extra sneak attacks with it to reach 11d6 at the end. Death attack and the usage of spells are really nice abilities and I would also get hide in plain sight with this path. Because I get uncanny dodge here I can skip many levels of rogue and get higher BAB from swashbuckler. I'd also get improved flanking and my sneak attacks hit with 11d6 in the end.
--> Quite good abilities, good sneak attacks, high number of choosable feats, good BAB, good effect from daring outlaw


I guess the way of the assasin looks best, with 3 lvls in rogue, 8 in swashbuckler and 9 in assasin.
This way I can choose all my feats and even get improved Two weapon fighting as well as craven.
With only 3 levels in swashbuckler I'd feel daring outlaw would be weak.

As aelyrinth mentioned, AND Tempest reinforced, make sure you at least consider the Nighsong Enforcer (Complete Adventurer).  Full BAB and near-full sneak attack is nothing to sneeze at.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I have to talk to my gm about the nightsong enforcer first because I don't know if I have access to this class (due to lack of the guild). If possible I give it a closure look.

If not I still think I'm going with 3 rogue, 8 swashbuckler, 9 assasin. Right now I'm loocking which feats would be best for that. As mentioned earlier I recently hit level 3 and have to choose a perk for that level. Level 6 I will take daring outlaw, so overall I have 5 free choosable feats to choose.
I'm planning on spending 2 for the improved two weapon fighting and 1 for craven and the other two for Martial stance: Island of blades and staggering strike (will now check the prerequisites for those feats).

Nightsong enforcer would force me to take improved initiative and I don't really know how good that is. Maybe I would go rogue 8, swashbuckler 3, nightsong enforcer 9. This would leave me with 9d6 sneak attack as well as uncanny dodge, all the teamwork skills, a high BAB and insightful strike.

Compared with the Assasin build it has higher BAB but lower Sneak attacks, the teamwork skills and improved evasion but no spells, hide in plain sight, death strike, poison use and poison resist, higher HP but a lower number of skills, +1 trap sense but no improved flanking and one of the 5 leftover feats has to be improved initiative.

Additionally to become a nightsong enforcer our GM would let me do some kind of "hard training" as mentioned under the prerequisites whereas as assasin I can just kill some random person without being catched (what's probably more fun).

My problem is that I can't really think of how good these teamwork skills could be whereas things like hide in plain sight and  spell usage seem to be very mighty.

Edit: Looked up the BAB for these to builds, the nightsong enforcer build would have a BAB of 17 whereas the Assasin build would have a BAB of 16 but 2xd6 more sneak attack damage.

Edit2: Precreated a rogue 3 swashbuckler 8 assasin 9 and I'm kind of worried about the defensive stats. Without gear my will save would only be at +6 and I'm getting no additional AC except from my 20 agillity and +1 vs traps as well as +2 dodge bonus from swashbuckler what seems to be kinda low... Is this enough to survive?
Levels in classes with SA stack for purposes of overcoming classes with uncanny dodge that also stack.

Remember swash and rogue stack for SA. Unless the Nightsong Enforcer's class abilities are that much better then a swashie's, you're better keeping the +1d6 more SA and sticking with the swash. Also remember that +3 to hit is a major upgrade at higher levels when spread across multiple attacks.

A bonus to initiative has two benefits for a rogue. 1) you act first and 2) after suprising someone and movng up next to them, you can full attack them before they act, which means they are still flat-footed, and you still get full sneak attack. A LOT of monsters have good dex and improved init...if you want to make this combo work, you have to win the initiative.

A +6 Will Save is a base Poor Will save. Do what Fighters do: SPend a night in the Otyugh Hole for a free Iron Will feat; get the Diamond Mind Moment of Perfect Clarity manuver and spend on concentration; buy an Item of Mind-armor for a +4 Insight bonus.

==============================

Tempest, your math has to be WAY off on that Greater Two weapon fighting. It just doesn't fly that it's better then Craven.

Let's say you're a Rogue/Swash with +39 to hit (you hit AC 40 on a 2). You full attack with Craven. Thats hitting on a 4 (85%) x 2, a 9 (60%) x 2, 14 (35%) x1, and 19 (10%) x 1.

So, we're 85% x 2 x 20, + 60% x 2, +35% x 20, +10% x 20.  Craven is adding 67ish in damage.

You're adding (Attack+12d6) at -12, or hitting on the 14 (35% CHANCE).
So, in order to do 67 damage, your total attack damage has to be 200 PER ATTACK (however you get to it is irrelevant).
If your damage is that high, hell, yeah, add the attack. Note: the 4th iterative has only a 10% chance of hitting, so it's only contributing 2 pts.)

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
I should further point out that Tempest and I had a drag-out mathematical battle about sneak attack and SA on one of these posts somewhere, which might give you some ideas for builds.   We were getting damage into the hundreds/round.  Granted, it WAS at level 20...

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Further comparison showed me that the improved flanking from the swashbuckler (+2) doesn't seem to lack behind much compared with the +2 you get from the nightsong enforcer build.
The only difference is that +1 of these two is BAB and the other one is counted for the whole team.
The AB you get with a rogue3/swashbuckler8/Assasin9 build while flanking is identical to a rogue8/Swashbuckler3/nightsong enforcer9.

With my rogue3/swashbuckler8/assasin9 (human, male) build level 20 without equipment and further events I would have:

Strength 10
Agility 20
Constitution 12
Intelligence 16
Wisdom 10
Charisma 12
(If I put 4 Points into agility and 1 in Constitution)

AB: 21 (+2 while flanking)
AC: 15 (+1 trapsense, + 2 dodge bonus)

Fortitude save: 10 (+4 save against posion)
Reflex save: 13 (+1 trapsense)
Will save: 6

Average HP: 108
Skillpoints: 208

With the class features:
Weapon finesse, sneak attack 11, evasion, trapfinding, insightful strike, acrobatic charge, improved flanking, death attack, poison use, spells (assasin), improved uncanny dodge, hide in plain sight

and with the feats:
Quickdraw, craven, daring outlaw, staggering strike, greater two weapon fighting and one free feat I haven't chosen yet.

Is a build like this considered viable or even strong? Or will I lack behind and die easily with something like that? What could be better (how do I improve it)? And what could I pick as my last feat? Should I even take greater two weapon fighting or get another more needed feat (which?)?

@ aelryinth
Do you get that much of a bonus to AB to reach numbers like 39 later on? Or is a BAB of 16 just terribly low?

Edit:
To put everything together in one post... The build above is the way I intend to go. Right now (without gear) I'm a

Rogue2/Swashbuckler1 (human, male)

Strength 10
Agility 16
Constitution 11
Intelligence 16
Wisdom 10
Charisma 12

AB: 5
AC: 13

Fortitude save: 2
Reflex save: 2
Will save: 0

HP: 18
Skillpoints: 68

With the class features:
Weapon finesse, sneak attack 1, evasion, trapfinding

and with the feats:
Quickdraw, craven, two weapon fighting

And I'm practically not allowed to pick up any caster class and also not allowed to pick up to many classes (I think 4 would be the absolute maximum). Almost any 3.5 books are allowed.
The other three members of the group are druid3; barbar3; warrior3 (I know a terrible composition). Our GM considers Magic items as rare and not as easy to get.
Levels in classes with SA stack for purposes of overcoming classes with uncanny dodge that also stack.


Got a citation for that? Honestly, while many things stacked for Improved Uncanny Dodge ('minimum rogue level require to flank'), nothing I know of ever stacked with rogue for bypassing uncanny dodge.

Tempest, your math has to be WAY off on that Greater Two weapon fighting. It just doesn't fly that it's better then Craven.

Let's say you're a Rogue/Swash with +39 to hit (you hit AC 40 on a 2). You full attack with Craven. Thats hitting on a 4 (85%) x 2, a 9 (60%) x 2, 14 (35%) x1, and 19 (10%) x 1.

So, we're 85% x 2 x 20, + 60% x 2, +35% x 20, +10% x 20.  Craven is adding 67ish in damage.

You're adding (Attack+12d6) at -12, or hitting on the 14 (35% CHANCE).
So, in order to do 67 damage, your total attack damage has to be 200 PER ATTACK (however you get to it is irrelevant).
If your damage is that high, hell, yeah, add the attack. Note: the 4th iterative has only a 10% chance of hitting, so it's only contributing 2 pts.)


I'll doublecheck what I did when I get some time (massive statistics analysis assignment due in a few hours), but I do know that I used a pure rogue, not a daring outlaw. Thus, I only got three normal attacks and two off-hands before factoring in Craven or Greater TWF. Swashbuckler gets one extra normal attack in by default, so a Craven Daring Outlaw essentially gets the benefits of both feats (and at a higher attack bonus).

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
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[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

As I pointed out, with a +39 bonus to hit, a 4th iterative is only +2 dmg to the total, or 63. That still leaves you having to do 190 dmg with an attack at -12 to hit to make it worth it, Tempest.

Unfortunately I can't remember where I saw the cite on the SA, it just stuck with me because it was so obvious. I thought it was one of the Sages, but I could be wrong...

How to get high to hit numbers with a Sneak Attacker...

+5 Weapon.
Discipline Weapon (shadow hand for stance), +3/-.
The weapon has Subtlety (+4/+4 when SA qualified...note, applies if immune to SA dmg!)
Base 18 Dex. Item +6, levels +5, Inherent +6 is 34, or +12 to hit w Weapon Finesse.
Flanking +2.
BAB 16.
Weapon Focus (short sword) and Adaptive Property, +2/+1.

total bonus to hit: +44.

A Fighter with GWF and MWM with +20 BAB could get it to +51, +53 with a level of Barbarian and Raging. And that's before playing size change shenanigans.

==Aelryinth

===Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Just read throught the alternative class features...
Isn't it better to get penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape) instead of trap sense (which would only be +1 anyway) as well as shield of blades (PHB2) instead dodge bonus?

Would still be nice to get some opinions on the bild I've planned. Will I be fine with that?
And what could I choose for my last (1 or 2) feats?
Most people would just buy the Augment stones for the class of enemies you can't SA instead of blowing a feat on it.

A Dodge bonus to AC is much better then a shield bonus, esp with Uncanny Dodge. Get your shield bonus from a mithral buckler.

Don't worry about your last 1-2 feats until you get there. That's MONTHS away. Plan your NEXT feat, and maybe the one or two after that. Anything else is just theorycrafting...where you WANT to be. Where the game actually takes you could be completely different.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Thanks for the advice on the alternative class features.. But I'm still considering penetrating strike because as I said our GM seems to be treating magical items as nothing common. The only thing I'd loose would be trap sense +1 what is kinda acceptable I guess.

What do you think about the alternate class featuresSwift and DeadlyDotU and Arcane StuntCM?
Found them in the rogue handbook listed as good feats to pick when playing rogue/swashbuckler.
There is also stated, that shield of blades is definitly worth it when two weapon fighting... Don't know what to belive right now But how should I get a shield bonus with a mithral buckler while dual wielding??
Don't know what to belive right now But how should I get a shield bonus with a mithral buckler while dual wielding??

Improved Buckler Defense (CW, I think) allows you to retain your buckler's shield bonus even when you attack with that hand.  Alternatively, there's Two Weapon Defense (PHB) and Improved Two Weapon Defense (CW, again, I think).  Each of those gives you a +1 shield bonus when dual-wielding; Imp TWD stacks on top of TWD.
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Okay but the dodge bonus would be +2 ac for one target whereas the shield of blades would be +2 against more targets if I was doing a full attack before. Both with the same scaling and with improved uncanny dodge both against targets behind me. That means while the dodge bonus helps me out just against one target all the time whereas tha shield of blades can affect many targets all around me stacking further with TWD and imp TWD (what actually shouldn't be happaning while playing a rogue ...).

Edit: I've got a question about Assasin stance. To pick up martial stance you need a maneuver right? And you only get maneuvers through class abilities? So it's impossible to pick up Assasin stance as Rogue/Swashbuckler/Assasin? Is this all true or am I missing something?
Edit: I've got a question about Assasin stance. To pick up martial stance you need a maneuver right? And you only get maneuvers through class abilities? So it's impossible to pick up Assasin stance as Rogue/Swashbuckler/Assasin? Is this all true or am I missing something?

The feat Martial Study allows to you choose one maneuver for which you meet the prereqs.  Once you take that, you can use Martial Stance to learn any Stance for which you meet the prereqs.

"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Okay but the dodge bonus would be +2 ac for one target whereas the shield of blades would be +2 against more targets if I was doing a full attack before. Both with the same scaling and with improved uncanny dodge both against targets behind me. That means while the dodge bonus helps me out just against one target all the time whereas tha shield of blades can affect many targets all around me stacking further with TWD and imp TWD (what actually shouldn't be happaning while playing a rogue ...).

Edit: I've got a question about Assasin stance. To pick up martial stance you need a maneuver right? And you only get maneuvers through class abilities? So it's impossible to pick up Assasin stance as Rogue/Swashbuckler/Assasin? Is this all true or am I missing something?

A +2 Dodge bonus against whatever you want vs a Shield bonus that is only effective in the round AFTER you make a full attack?

This is akin to saying "I get a +2 Dodge bonus when I want it, vs a +2 Shield bonus when the DM wants to give it to me."

If it's allowed, just take Improved Buckler Defense, as sword and board wielders cry into their beers everywhere. Otherwise, go for the Dodge bonus.

Draco is correct on the Manuvers. Most people just take a level in Swordsage, so they can grab the Diamond Mind concentration save manuvers at the same time.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Hey guys, thanks for all the help!
Still sticking with my rogue3/swashbuckler8/assasin 9 build but considering to take swordsage 1 at the moment for the stances, but I got plenty of time for that...

What I'm interessted now are items... Are there any must have items to optimize a rogue? What should I look out for? Just don't want to miss something a rogue can't live without
Wands are pretty vital and can really cover up some skill holes if you were unable to invest in everything you wanted. This allows for a lower int than you usually expect. 

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#1 is the Short Sword of Subtlety for sneak attacks, #2 is going to be the Assassin's Dagger for death attacks.

augment stones for constructs, oozes and undead if you can get them...

Anything to up key skills.

===Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Hey guys!
Until now I considered rogue 3, swasbuckler 8, assasin 9 to be a good build to take if going into the direction of an assasin. Because I considered a martial stance (island of blades) as a possible feat I got the idea of building a rogue 3 swasbuckler 6, swordsage 1 and assasin 10.

My build right now grants me +1 additional BAB, as well as +1d6 of sneak attack and a d10 hit die instead of a d6 twice. Additionally I have Acrobatic charge (which would be replaced by swift and deadly), Improved flanking and an additional grace bonus of +1.

Instead taking up swordsage grants me another 4th level assasin spell, as well as +1 save against poison and 4 additional skill points. +3 to ref saves and +2 to will saves instead of +1 to fortitude saves and additionally weapon focus, quick to act +1, 1 stance as well as 4 readied maneuvers (level 1 Swordsage).

Here my first impressions:
The first build has 1 BAB more and additional 2 while flanking while the second one grants me a +1 from weapon focus. That means I woud loose 2 effective AB (and my BAB isn't that high with only 15). Additionally the first build gives me an extra 1d6 of sneak attack damage and the abbility to move away from my target after a full attack which denies full attacks on me (so I don't have to take staggering strike). The extra HP aren't that important imo.

The best thing on the second build is that it leaves room for an additional feat because I don't have to take martial stance and martial study but staggering strike instead. Additionally I get a bonus to my Will saves which are going to 8 from 6 with only loosing 1 fort save (the additional refelx save shouldn't be that important because it's skyhigh anyway). The 4 additional skill points as well as the +1 save against poison isn't really important but the +1 to initiative is quite nice. The last really greate change is the additional 4th level assasin spell which should be quite good.

Well in my opinion adding swordsage would only benefit the build. Am I missing something there or should I take up swordsage no matter what? The other question is if there are any feats that could compensate the lost AB of 2 or the sneak attack damage of 1d6.

Feats already taken are: craven, daring outlaw, staggering strike, greater two weapon fighting

Edit: Just saw that I can take shadow blade as a feat if I take the swordsage path, that would definitly compensate the lost 1d6 of sneak attack damage! But I would only have a BAB of 15 instead of 16 and I loose the improved flanking +2 and only get weapon focus +1.

This would leave me at a 15 (BAB) + 1 (weapon focus) + 5 (base agility) + 2 (flanking) + gear + buffs (only druid in group unfortunately I don't know what he's capable of later in game)AB. What probably isn't as high as it could be... Is it even worth taking greater two weapon fighting with a BAB of 15? What could I do (feats?) to improve my AB?
Edit: Just saw that I can take shadow blade as a feat if I take the swordsage path, that would definitly compensate the lost 1d6 of sneak attack damage! But I would only have a BAB of 15 instead of 16 and I loose the improved flanking +2 and only get weapon focus +1.

This would leave me at a 15 (BAB) + 1 (weapon focus) + 5 (base agility) + 2 (flanking) + gear + buffs (only druid in group unfortunately I don't know what he's capable of later in game)AB. What probably isn't as high as it could be... Is it even worth taking greater two weapon fighting with a BAB of 15? What could I do (feats?) to improve my AB?

The absolute most important thing to remamber about the difference between BASE attack bonus +15 vs. +16 is that BAB +16 gives you an extra attck/round.  Remember, Shadow Blade doesn't require swordsage levels; it only requires the knowledge of a Shadow Hand stance and the use of Shadow Hand weapons (dagger and short sword, for example)
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88534793 wrote:
Punctuation exists for a reason, and your neglect of the shift key is to the point where Social Services should be involved.
But is this extra attack with a BAB of +1 actually worth it? As for the Shadow Blade feat I would have to take martial stance and martial study as 2 feats before I can take that... That means I'm not able to pick staggering strike but got swift and deadly (which is slightly weaker imo) to replace it....

Is this:
extra attack with a BAB of 1 as well as at most 8 Hitpoints, the AB Bonus of 1 while flanking, a +1 bonus on fortitude saves and 1d6 of sneak attack damage
worth skipping:
Another 4th level assasin spell as well as 1 use per day, 4 skillpoints, 1 exra choosable feat, staggering strike (instead of swift and deadly (move again after attack)) as well as an initiative bonus of 1 and +2 to my (weak) will saves...
? I really don't know which build is better...

Staggering strike has the great advantage that it helps out the whole group but enemies can roll against it whereas swift and deadly only helps myself but all the time. Additionally I don't know what extra feat would help me out a lot but there should be something to compensate some of the losses. The extra 4th level assasin spell should be great, too. I really can't imagin how good this extra BAB 1 attack is... Is it that powerful?

The extra attack, although being at a much lower bonus, is generally worth having.  As a rogue, you'll be flanking with an ally or catching opponents flat-footed.  This means their AC will be lower and that extra attack gained from higher BAB will net you an additional chance to inflict some serious pain though sneak attack.

Sure you lose some things like some skills and hp - but for overall damage output, I think an additional chance to hit with a fist full of d6s is worth it. 
Edit:

Did some math, I'm flanking a monster with AC 40 (Without dex modifier) with an AB of 38 with 2 Swords of Subtlety (+7):

With 6 attacks: Shadow blade but no GTWF
373 = 2*(0,9*97) + 2*(0,7*97) + 0,45*97 + 0,2*97

With 7 attacks: GTWF but no shadow blade
369 = 2*(0,9*86) + 2*(0,7*86) + 2*(0,45*86) + 0,2*86

With 6 attacks a BAB of 15 instead of 16, GTWF and Shadow blade, weapon focus but no Improved Flanking and 1d6 sneak attack less (with swordsage dip)
327 = 2*(0,8*93,5) + 2*(0,6*93,5) + 2*(0,35*93,5)

The average damage is about 42 to 46 points lower if I pick up Swordsage but I get the better will save, an additional assasin spell per day, some skill points, +1 initiative and Staggering strike instead of Swift and deadly... What might really not be worth it...
Additionally Shadow blade seems to be a tiny bit stronger than GTWF in that case, without the inherent bonuses of 5 GTWF would be even weaker (with only inheritent bonuses on dex about 15-20 dmg)... The AB limits the value of GTWF and I don't know how I could raise my AB higher then 38. I got the base of 16 with an agility bonus of +11 (+6 enhancement +5 level, +5 inherent, 16 base) a +5 enhancement, +4 while flanking a +4 with the sword of subtlety and -2 because I'm dual wielding.


Calculation of damage:
weapon: 10,5 (d6+7)
Sword of Subtlety: 4
Insightful Strike: 8
Strength: 5
Craven: 20
Shadow Blade: 11 (Agility Bonus +11)
Sneak Attack (11): 38,5 (11d6)
Sneak Attack (10): 35 (10d6)

I'd still like to pick darkstalker as a feat but it seems like I'd loose to much damage if I do that...
Damage isn't everything.

Being able to determine when your damage applies by suprising the **** out of enemies who you normally couldn't Sneak Attack because they can't be flanked and have blindsight?

Priceless.

Darkstalker is considered a Core Feat for any realistic rogue build. It's as ubiquitous as Weapon Finesse.

Where is that competition thread me and tempest were haviing? For pure damage we did pretty damn well...

===Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
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