Confirmed: online 4e tools will remain "supported" after D&D Next

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In the D&D XP convention seminar on future products, Greg Bilsland publicly confirmed that WotC will continue to "support" the 4e character builder after D&D Next is released.

The devil is in the details and no one knows what "support" means, but at the very least I think we can expect that will remain available as an online tool to support your 4e games. I would expect that the monster builder and 4e compendium to be "supported" as well.

This is good news for all 4e fans who would like to continue their campaigns after D&D Next is released.
i am hopeful this stays the case

the other products sounded good except for undermountain being level 1-5.
In the D&D XP convention seminar on future products, Greg Bilsland publicly confirmed that WotC will continue to "support" the 4e character builder after D&D Next is released.

The devil is in the details and no one knows what "support" means, but at the very least I think we can expect that will remain available as an online tool to support your 4e games. I would expect that the monster builder and 4e compendium to be "supported" as well.

This is good news for all 4e fans who would like to continue their campaigns after D&D Next is released.



I have no reason to believe this and every reason to believe it's at best misleading if not downright untruthful.  The entire legal stance of Wotc from the start of 4E was to be able to shut it down completely and totally at a moment's notice.  Both the game and the GSL make this painfully obvious.  Given that Wotc  wants our money (and there is nothing wrong with that per se), it would seem that it would be in Wotc's short term best interests to "phase out" DDI support for an edition that competes against their new edition (and we know that's wotc's general policy) and make the 4E holdouts either buy 5E or not play DND at all (at least not supported DND).


I would certainly take more than three years of policy over one general annoucement that doesn't bind Wotc to anything in the legal sense.

-Polaris   
I'm pretty confident WotC will keep the 4E character builder up and running after D&D Next is released. 
There's every reason to belive they will contine to leave the builder and compendium up.

They probably only need 500 people to stay profitable. So there no reason to stop making money.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It is also a good way to keep people subscribed and promote a positive image for your customers.

"We want you to play D&D. All D&D, no matter what edition you prefer, this is your home." And once 5e hits and there are no more 4e books coming out they don't have to add anything new to it, just continue to have it available as an option in whatever 5e's online tools are.
I_Roll_20s @twitter. Not always SFW. I may prefer 4e, but I will play and enjoy almost any edition, and indeed almost any table top RPG, with my friends. Down with Edition Wars. Shut up and roll your dice. :P
If they leave the old tools up and add a robust character conversion tool it would probably win more fans to 5e than simply shutting down the old 4e tools.
I could see them putting up a 1e, 2d, 3e, 3.5e compendium too.

perhaps not a builders, but meh.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I could see them putting up a 1e, 2d, 3e, 3.5e compendium too.




This would be very welcome but a truly mammoth undertaking. The amount of material out there for 2e and 3.x is staggering (ever see someone's bookcase who has a complete collection?) and would require an incredible number of hours to input into the system.

I suspect that instead they'll come up with some sort of Print on Demand or read online system for the older books instead of the compendium. Even then, doing proffesional scans of all the old material would be huge job.
There's every reason to belive they will contine to leave the builder and compendium up. They probably only need 500 people to stay profitable. So there no reason to stop making money.

While I believe they will keep them running for some time, there are quite a lot reason to stop doing something even if it still yields positive contributions margins (some are at least understandable, some are just stupid, but it's done all the time across all kinds of industries/products)

I suspect that instead they'll come up with some sort of Print on Demand or read online system for the older books instead of the compendium. Even then, doing proffesional scans of all the old material would be huge job.

I hope WotC does neither of those things - there are already companies doing them quite well and it would be far more practical to just feed WotC's prior-edition catalog into those existing operations than to attempt to duplicate the infrastructure.



"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
There's every reason to belive they will contine to leave the builder and compendium up. They probably only need 500 people to stay profitable. So there no reason to stop making money.


     I can't say if it would be profitable or not to shut it down, but I can say it can seem so, and it need only seem so to a few at WOTC for us to wake up and link to the site and read a big ad claiming that 5e is so much better that we obviously do not want to play 4e anymore.
I'm glad they'll still be supporting the builder, but I am annoyed that the online builder is still in many ways inferior to the offline builder. If this is what they mean by 'support', I'll wait and see if it's worth it.

 

"What is the sort of thing that I do care about is a failure to seriously evaluate what does and doesn't work in favor of a sort of cargo cult posturing. And yes, it's painful to read design notes columns that are all just "So D&D 3.5 sort of had these problems. We know people have some issues with them. What a puzzler! But we think we have a solution in the form of X", where X is sort of a half-baked version of an idea that 4e executed perfectly well and which worked fine." - Lesp

The things that I really want put into the online builder:

- more flexibility when it comes to houseruling of characters
- a campaign filter similar to what we used to have on the old offline builder
- a way to link members of a group so that we can look at (but not edit) each others characters. This would make the job of a DM a whole lot easier.

Give me those and I'd consider the online builder complete. They've got one year to wrap it up. I hope they can do it.

P.S. - A proper encounter builder would be nice too, but I'm not holding my breath.
I hope that Wizards would have learned from the 3rd-4th changeover, and the legions of fans who were outraged that Wizards abandoned them. Them saying that the 4e online tools would continue to be supported tells me that they have. Now, they just need to follow through.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

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I am a hero, not a chump.
WotC said they're working on a way to reprint or redistribute in some capacity the older editions.  This supports the point that they want to be selling all the editions to us, so that we're playing D&D, whatever edition, rather than Pathfinder or World of Darkness or GURPS or some other system.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

I hope they keep the online tools for 4e up and running. I may not be moving on to 5e, but I can see myself keeping Insider account just so I can keep playing 4e.
I have never seen a super nova go off, but if it is anything like a Chevy Nova it sure will light up the sky! IMAGE(http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af70/stranger_93/WorldofTanks.jpg)
I hope they keep the online tools for 4e up and running. I may not be moving on to 5e, but I can see myself keeping Insider account just so I can keep playing 4e.



I see myself in a situation where I would need both the 5e tools and the 4e tools. I play in two different campaigns, one of which plans to switch to 5e ASAP and the other who is very happy to stay playing 4e forever. I'd like to see a future where one DDI account can give me tools to play any edition of D&D. I'd pay for that.
Keep in mind it costs them almost nothing to leave the 4e builder up, assuming they are going to have a website with significant traffic anyway.  Eventually it will have all the 4e rules in once they stop making anything new for 4e.  At that point it costs almost nothing to just leave it there in terms of additional costs over and above running the website and 5e tools. 

Not to mention as long as you have warning it's coming down you can just grab the data and use Hero Lab from that point on.

In the D&D XP convention seminar on future products, Greg Bilsland publicly confirmed that WotC will continue to "support" the 4e character builder after D&D Next is released.

The devil is in the details and no one knows what "support" means, but at the very least I think we can expect that will remain available as an online tool to support your 4e games. I would expect that the monster builder and 4e compendium to be "supported" as well.

This is good news for all 4e fans who would like to continue their campaigns after D&D Next is released.



Oh dear God please let this be true. Even if they never update it again after 5e is released, they can at least keep it online so I can keep using it for the Virtual TableTop. I will gladly keep paying my DDI subscription if this is so.
In the D&D XP convention seminar on future products, Greg Bilsland publicly confirmed that WotC will continue to "support" the 4e character builder after D&D Next is released.

The devil is in the details and no one knows what "support" means.

I have no reason to believe this and every reason to believe it's at best misleading if not downright untruthful.

When has WotC ever been misleading or untruthful before?

(That's a rhetorical question, folks, don't go crashing the server with complete itemized lists.)

  The entire legal stance of Wotc from the start of 4E was to be able to shut it down completely and totally at a moment's notice.  Both the game and the GSL make this painfully obvious.  Given that Wotc  wants our money (and there is nothing wrong with that per se), it would seem that it would be in Wotc's short term best interests to "phase out" DDI support for an edition that competes against their new edition (and we know that's wotc's general policy) and make the 4E holdouts either buy 5E or not play DND at all (at least not supported DND).

It does make sense to leave the 4e tools up for anyone with an ongoing DDI subscription.  It'll expose 4e holdouts to the on-line tools and materials being continually rolled out for 5e, in addition to keeping their subscription money flowing (which will, incidentally, let them count every dime of subscription revenue for 5e).  Eventually - months or a year or two - they can close down the 4e tools due to 'lack of demand,' or just leave them buggy and put them on a cheaper and cheaper server until their hardly useable.

Besides, once they shut it down, there's a certain mind set that'll assume it's 'OK' to start pirating the old off-line tools.

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

Besides, once they shut it down, there's a certain mind set that'll assume it's 'OK' to start pirating the old off-line tools.

I can honestly say I would be hard-pressed to not be among them.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
 Eventually - months or a year or two - they can close down the 4e tools due to 'lack of demand,' or just leave them buggy and put them on a cheaper and cheaper server until their hardly useable.

Besides, once they shut it down, there's a certain mind set that'll assume it's 'OK' to start pirating the old off-line tools.

Nah...  Servers and bandwith will get cheaper and cheaper by themselves.

They won't even need to buy a new server for 5 more years.  And by that time, you could have 500 people paying the subscription, and they'd still make money of 4e.  5 years after that and you could pay for the whole service by yourself.

Also, i'll point out the VT has options for every D&D edition.  IMO, they'll eventually make 1e, 2e, 3e ... compendiums.
Perhaps not CB's, those take a fair bit more effort.  But putting text into a serchable database takes an intern.

WoTC want's all D&D players to come to them.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

 Eventually - months or a year or two - they can close down the 4e tools due to 'lack of demand,' or just leave them buggy and put them on a cheaper and cheaper server until their hardly useable.

Besides, once they shut it down, there's a certain mind set that'll assume it's 'OK' to start pirating the old off-line tools.

Nah...  Servers and bandwith will get cheaper and cheaper by themselves.

They won't even need to buy a new server for 5 more years.  And by that time, you could have 500 people paying the subscription, and they'd still make money of 4e.  5 years after that and you could pay for the whole service by yourself.

Also, i'll point out the VT has options for every D&D edition.  IMO, they'll eventually make 1e, 2e, 3e ... compendiums.
Perhaps not CB's, those take a fair bit more effort.  But putting text into a serchable database takes an intern.

WoTC want's all D&D players to come to them.



That depends on how well 5e is doing though.  If Wotc believes that 4e holdouts are keeping 5e sales down, they will kill 4e support in a New York minute.  Wotc specifically set themselves up to do this and to prevent any 3pp retroclone of 4e.  Also Wotc has a known and longstanding policy of NOT supporting more than one edition at a time, and I still say that is very unlikely to change.


-Polaris
 Eventually - months or a year or two - they can close down the 4e tools due to 'lack of demand,' or just leave them buggy and put them on a cheaper and cheaper server until their hardly useable.

Besides, once they shut it down, there's a certain mind set that'll assume it's 'OK' to start pirating the old off-line tools.

Nah...  Servers and bandwith will get cheaper and cheaper by themselves.

They won't even need to buy a new server for 5 more years.  And by that time, you could have 500 people paying the subscription, and they'd still make money of 4e.  5 years after that and you could pay for the whole service by yourself.

Also, i'll point out the VT has options for every D&D edition.  IMO, they'll eventually make 1e, 2e, 3e ... compendiums.
Perhaps not CB's, those take a fair bit more effort.  But putting text into a serchable database takes an intern.

WoTC want's all D&D players to come to them.



That depends on how well 5e is doing though.  If Wotc believes that 4e holdouts are keeping 5e sales down, they will kill 4e support in a New York minute.  Wotc specifically set themselves up to do this and to prevent any 3pp retroclone of 4e.  Also Wotc has a known and longstanding policy of NOT supporting more than one edition at a time, and I still say that is very unlikely to change.


-Polaris

I'm pretty sure they realise they can't force people to change editions.  Seeing as there's still plenty of 1e players.  So they might as well try and get some $$ from them by "supporting" it.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'm pretty sure they realise they can't force people to change editions.  Seeing as there's still plenty of 1e players.  So they might as well try and get some $$ from them by "supporting" it.



Actually I'm pretty sure that Wotc does think they can force 4e to change to 5e by starving it out of existance if they have to. 


-Polaris
I'm pretty sure they realise they can't force people to change editions.  Seeing as there's still plenty of 1e players.  So they might as well try and get some $$ from them by "supporting" it.

Actually I'm pretty sure that Wotc does think they can force 4e to change to 5e by starving it out of existance if they have to. 


-Polaris

The we'll have to disagree.  Cause i can't imagine why they wouldn't want more money.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'm pretty sure they realise they can't force people to change editions.  Seeing as there's still plenty of 1e players.  So they might as well try and get some $$ from them by "supporting" it.

Actually I'm pretty sure that Wotc does think they can force 4e to change to 5e by starving it out of existance if they have to. 


-Polaris

The we'll have to disagree.  Cause i can't imagine why they wouldn't want more money.




With respect, I think you are looking at this a bit too simply.  It's not just "money" but where the money is coming from.  AFAIK, 4e makes a decenish profit even post essentials.  The problem is that it isn't making enough.  Thus if 5e isn't performing up to expectations and Wotc is desperate enough (and I think they ARE desperate at this point), I can easily see them yanking 4e support to FORCE a spike in 5e sales even if Wotc knows it's a losing prosition in the long term.  There is no "long term" when the CFO of Hasbro asks you to justify your product in 10 words or less right now.  You either show him numbers that he wants to see, or you clean out your desk.

-Polaris    

I'm pretty sure they realise they can't force people to change editions.  Seeing as there's still plenty of 1e players.  So they might as well try and get some $$ from them by "supporting" it.

Actually I'm pretty sure that Wotc does think they can force 4e to change to 5e by starving it out of existance if they have to. 


-Polaris

The we'll have to disagree.  Cause i can't imagine why they wouldn't want more money.

With respect, I think you are looking at this a bit too simply.  It's not just "money" but where the money is coming from.  AFAIK, 4e makes a decenish profit even post essentials.  The problem is that it isn't making enough.  Thus if 5e isn't performing up to expectations and Wotc is desperate enough (and I think they ARE desperate at this point), I can easily see them yanking 4e support to FORCE a spike in 5e sales even if Wotc knows it's a losing prosition in the long term.  There is no "long term" when the CFO of Hasbro asks you to justify your product in 10 words or less right now.  You either show him numbers that he wants to see, or you clean out your desk.

-Polaris

If that's the case, the servers would go down anyways.

So... *shrug*  Still think there's no reason to kill a flow of $$

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'm pretty sure they realise they can't force people to change editions.  Seeing as there's still plenty of 1e players.  So they might as well try and get some $$ from them by "supporting" it.

Actually I'm pretty sure that Wotc does think they can force 4e to change to 5e by starving it out of existance if they have to. 
-Polaris

The we'll have to disagree.  Cause i can't imagine why they wouldn't want more money.

With respect, I think you are looking at this a bit too simply.  It's not just "money" but where the money is coming from.  AFAIK, 4e makes a decenish profit even post essentials.  The problem is that it isn't making enough.  Thus if 5e isn't performing up to expectations and Wotc is desperate enough (and I think they ARE desperate at this point), I can easily see them yanking 4e support to FORCE a spike in 5e sales even if Wotc knows it's a losing prosition in the long term.  There is no "long term" when the CFO of Hasbro asks you to justify your product in 10 words or less right now.  You either show him numbers that he wants to see, or you clean out your desk.

-Polaris    

True enough, the realities of the corprorate world can be that crazy.

But, what if WotC makes no distinction between 4e and 5e on-line?  That is, what if DDI gives you access to both the old 4e tools, and the bright shiny-new 5e tools and content?  They'll be able to count the revenue of everyone keeping DDI to keep access to the 4e tools towards 5e.

Pulling the plug on 4e tools could still 'force' some fence-sitters to adopt 5e and buy a few core books, but it'd mostly just spike sales of 4e books on ebay.

OTOH, slowly letting the tools degrade (not adjusting them to work well with new browsers or environments, restoring them from buggy backups when they crash, putting them on whimpier and whimpier servers...) might more subtley nudge people towards the latest-and-greatest. 

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

they would have to be evil to do that
OTOH, slowly letting the tools degrade (not adjusting them to work well with new browsers or environments, restoring them from buggy backups when they crash, putting them on whimpier and whimpier servers...) might more subtley nudge people towards the latest-and-greatest. 

A comment on that from a system perspective:

The actual data and code for the 4E tools is going to reside on some sort of network storage device, along with the data and code for all other tools and the WotC website(s) itself.

Why? Because doing anything else COSTS  MORE.

They are not going to continue maintaining an old server for 4E - because doing so COSTS MORE.

As long as the 4E software still runs on a modern server with modern system software, it will be on a modern server with modern system software. Unless there is a deliberate decision to shut it down.

Once it's running on a legacy OS/webserver because it won't run on a modern OS/webserver, and there is no effort in process to fix it so it will run on the modern stuff, THEN its days are numbered and the first time the legacy box has a hardware failure the thing is probably gone.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
I assume it will just stay on legacy systems.

But given that they got them only a year or so ago (when they switch to the online CB) it will easily last another 5.

After that, well... probably depends on how much use 4e gets vs 5e.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if, at this point, they continue to legitimately support 4e tools. And mock up some earlier ed tools while they're at it. 

pre-3e tools would be massively less code than 3e or 4e tools, so only a few hundred regular users of all adnd/basic stuff would probably be needed for it to be profitable. 3e is a bigger body of work, of course. Probably just a compendium for 3e.

And if a DDI sub gets you all of them, it's all one revenue stream. Hasbro is going to care most, in the end, about the profitabillity of DND, not DND 5e vs DND 4e.

If DND, as a whole, is making more money after the release of 5e and the integration of previous editons into online tool support, they won't care if it's all 5e or a combination of the editions. They'll just care that the brand is making more money. 


Remember folks, pessimism is just as unrealistic as optimism.  


What makes sense, for making a profit, is to keep 4e tools online and non-buggy. If it turns out that dndnext really is satisfying for the vast majority of 4e players switch to it (so many that fewer than a few hundred hold outs are still willing to pay a DDI sub to use the tools), then will eventually not be profitable to upkeep those tools. But as long as holdouts are adding to the sub rate in any meaningful way, killing the 4e tools would be the kind of move that get's people fired. 


Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Killing off the official online 4e tools would just drive the committed players into the arms of pirated material and unofficial software, not towards 5e. Once that particular fan base has gone to the unofficial tools, those tools will get better and better and you're unlikely to ever get those fans back. Most 4e players I know are sticking with the WotC tools because they are a quality product that is better than the alternatives. Once those alternatives get better than the official tools, those customers are gone.  Killing the 4e tools would be a crazy move from a business standpoint.

My biggest concern is that the tools will die not because of ill intent but because of neglect. What will computers and the internet look like 10 years from now? Who knows, but I do know that the current version of the 4e tools is likely to be the final version and that it'll be pretty clunky compared to whatever technology exists 10 years from now. That assumes of course that machines 10 years from now will still be able to run Silverlight.

I hate to say it, but I suspect that if I'm still playing 4e 10 years from now it'll be with my books and plenty of pencils and paper. 
Besides, once they shut it down, there's a certain mind set that'll assume it's 'OK' to start pirating the old off-line tools.

I can honestly say I would be hard-pressed to not be among them.

I already am.
Killing off the official online 4e tools would just drive the committed players into the arms of pirated material and unofficial software, not towards 5e. Once that particular fan base has gone to the unofficial tools, those tools will get better and better and you're unlikely to ever get those fans back. Most 4e players I know are sticking with the WotC tools because they are a quality product that is better than the alternatives. Once those alternatives get better than the official tools, those customers are gone.  Killing the 4e tools would be a crazy move from a business standpoint.




Agree completely.   I'm already firm in my decision I've no interest in a new set of rules.   The only 5e products I'll buy are ones that will be easily adaptable to 4e.   My personal preference would've been for them to gather up all the errata, power selections, classes, etc., and have them in a few large books.   And then just tweak 4e a little, stuff to speed up combat for instance.   4e is by far, IMO, the best system they've ever come up with, and only needs some fine tuning, not a whole new set of stuff to learn.   Bah.

Just making sure, i just got a bunch of guys to start a 4e group and how long would you guys assume we are away from 5e? Also what is d&d next?
Just making sure, i just got a bunch of guys to start a 4e group and how long would you guys assume we are away from 5e? Also what is d&d next?


     The assumed ETA is Summer 2013, presumably August.  So you likely have enough time to reach paragon and possibly epic if you quite seriously seriously go at it.  And while it is not likely 5 will be completely compatible, it may be close enough to allow conversion
And of course, you may not even want to switch over until the new ed has been out for a while. With the amount of 4e material available, it will take at least a year, probably more like 2, before start to feel the pangs of an unsupported edition.

Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Just making sure, i just got a bunch of guys to start a 4e group and how long would you guys assume we are away from 5e? Also what is d&d next?


Smart money is on Q4 2012.  It's when Neverwinter is set to launch, and all indications are that Neverwinter will be using the 5e ruleset.
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