Official Kobold race coming!

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Just announced at D&D XP... a full Kobold playable race writeup in the upcoming Dungeoneer book. Perhaps support for other orc/goblinoid races.

Discuss!

edit: full goblin writeup as well. The theme is underdark. No word on gnolls or orcs.
Finally!  I've been waiting for this!  The goblin especially.
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Woot!


Now we just need to push them to put kobolds in 5e PHB.  
*gasps* KOBOLDS!!!! *dances in the street like a maniac*
sorry for double posting here, but I'm wondering what else may be in that book, and have come up with some suggestions just incase the wizard team may be reading this thread, but mostly for my own amusement. I could see subclasses based on the tactics that goblinoids and kobolds would, maybe in the form of a rogue controller subclass that focuses on throwing alchemical items and medieval bombs, aswell as making traps that follow the "summoned creatures" rules so that we can have dex/con based class to go along with the dex/con race. Maybe they could even put a trapsmith theme, or maybe a race specific "wyrmepriest" theme for kobolds.
People in my group will be pleased.

I, personally, have never been interested in kobolds, but am happy for those of you who are.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I hate kobolds.

...pleased about the goblins though.
The old saying holds true:  Better late than never.

Welcome to the party, my short and nasty friends. 
Huzzah!
Wonder if we'll get a drow wizard subclass....
Now I can't wait to make a kobold PC for LFR!
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All I can say is meh, I would have been excited before - but just that feeling that it's not going to be supported (with 5e on the way), meh. 
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Now I can't wait to make a kobold PC for LFR!



The funny thing is is that when they brought out all of the Kobold stuff in 3rd edition and allowed it in the Living Campaign there it was at the death knell of that edition. So it is kind of aprapos that they come out at the death of this edition.

Kobolds are officially the "jump the shark" moments for WotC
Kobolds are officially the "jump the shark" moments for WotC


Semi-Serious Prediction: Kobolds will be playable from day 1 of 5e...

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

Awww... 

Shifty won't survive.   

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So what stats do you think they'll decide on for Kobolds?  For Goblins?

I wouldn't be surprised if Dex was the base stat for both, but I never saw Goblins as terribly charismatic.  Or Kobolds being very durable for that matter. 
So what stats do you think they'll decide on for Kobolds?  For Goblins?

I wouldn't be surprised if Dex was the base stat for both, but I never saw Goblins as terribly charismatic.  Or Kobolds being very durable for that matter. 



Kobold: Str and Dex or Wis

Goblin: Dex and Str or Char

Both races will need strength to fulfill their archetypal warrior role. Both need Dex to bring out their speed and shifty-ness. Wis for kobolds so they can do their Wyrmpriest thing and Char for goblins so they can be little rogues and archers, another goblin archetype.

You know it's not going to be Int and Con seems really out of place for something so small. The trick is which is the main stat and what are the flex stats.
So what stats do you think they'll decide on for Kobolds?  For Goblins?

I wouldn't be surprised if Dex was the base stat for both, but I never saw Goblins as terribly charismatic.  Or Kobolds being very durable for that matter. 



My guess:
Kobolds: +DEX, +CON or CHA
--Makes them good Sorcerers (their traditional preferred class), Rogues (esp artful dodgers), and Assassins
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
So what stats do you think they'll decide on for Kobolds?  For Goblins?

I wouldn't be surprised if Dex was the base stat for both, but I never saw Goblins as terribly charismatic.  Or Kobolds being very durable for that matter. 



My guess:
Kobolds: +DEX, +CON or CHA
--Makes them good Sorcerers (their traditional preferred class), Rogues (esp artful dodgers), and Assassins



Yes, please! Could also maybe play a Paladin, which is hillarious to me.
also vampires...KOBOLDS!!!
So what stats do you think they'll decide on for Kobolds?  For Goblins?

I wouldn't be surprised if Dex was the base stat for both, but I never saw Goblins as terribly charismatic.  Or Kobolds being very durable for that matter. 


Kobolds: Dex, Con/Cha. Shifty changed to 1/encounter minor action shift equal to half speed.

Goblins: Dex, Wis/Cha. Goblin Tactics changed to a free action.



Bringing Goblins as playable characters is great news for people playing in Eberron.
I'd like to see more on gnolls, if that could be done as well.

And I agree with Salla, those are the stats I allow for kobolds in my home game.
Yes, please! Could also maybe play a Paladin, which is hillarious to me.



Kobold paladin of bahamut would be fantastic.
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I'd assume that if they're including Goblins, they're also includign Hobgoblins and Bugbears. Which means we'd finally get Bugbears without oversized and with a better racial power!

My guess for flex stats:
Kobold: +2 Con; +2 Dex/Cha. I made Con the primary the primary because somehow they always struck me as hardy. Either way (Con or Dex primary) they make poor Dragon sorcerers, but with a Con primary make good Elementalists at least (fits better than Storm or Wild). They're ok at being Fighters but good as Rogues and Assassins, and also Warlocks (which kind of fits as well). I could also see an Int or Wis bonus for being crafty. shifty has to be changed unless it's still their only real defining mechanics. I think ShinQuickMan has it pretty accurate, though I could see it essentially becoming tumble.
Goblin: +2 Dex; +2 Wis/Cha. Same as some other people's guess here. It makes them good as Rogues, Assassins, Rangers ... things I picture the little hit-and-runners as being good at. goblin tactics is awful, and agreeing again with ShinQuickMan, it should be a free action.

If you put in other "monter" races, I see the following easily:
Hobgoblin: +2 Cha; +2 Str/Con. I see these guys as archetypal Warlords, and the Str helps with that. It's weird seeing everything get a Cha bonus, but every race introduced post-Essentials has had a Cha bonus in some way so it's not too out there. I can also see them with an Int bonus in there somewhere. hobgoblin resilience becomes a free action.
Bugbear: +2 Str; +2 Con/Dex. Brings back the ability to make them more of the "brute enforcers." predatory eye becomes a free action that triggers when you hit and have CA.
Gnolls: +2 Dex; +2 Str/Con OR +2 Con; +2 Dex/Cha. The first fits them more as a martial race, but the last opens up some of their more "warlocky" things they do. Pretty much everything else stays the same.
Orcs: +2 Str; +2 Con/Wis. I HATE THIS STAT LAYOUT but it's the only one I can really picture. It's boring and generically applied to "big brute races" like Goliath and Minotaurs but I couldn't think of something better. That said, they need serious mechanical love. They have terrible passives and their power needs to not be a Standard Action itself and require a weapon.
Duergar: +2 Con; +2 Wis/Cha. This differentiates them from Dwarves more and gives them Warlock goodness. Make their power scale better bonus-wise (+6/+9/+12)

Notably Blandelings, Githyanki and Bullywugs were not included because I really cannot see them fitting. Also Bladelings are supposedly getting a DDI write-up at somepoint. and Bullywugs are ... Bullywugs (ew).
Awww... 

Shifty won't survive.   



I'm glad my question was of interest to people.  Mearls himself was eager to see the writeup, and "ordered" the responsible dev (whoever has that fauxhawk thingy) to tell him/us if Shifty made it into the final writeup.  Unfortunately, no further info was provided. 
Yes, please! Could also maybe play a Paladin, which is hillarious to me.



Kobold paladin of bahamut would be fantastic.



On it!
There is NO way one of these underground races should be charismatic. However they could have Intelligence or Wisdom to represent their shifty cunning and tricksy ways. Likewise Strength should be for the Orcs and Hobgoblins, but Constitution could be for Goblins in the sense that they are tough little survivors: the same way a husky is just a dog, but what a tough dog!

Orcs: S + C/W (for shamanic stuff)
Hobgoblins: S + C/D
Goblins: D + I/C
Kobolds: D + I/W


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There is NO way one of these underground races should be charismatic. However they could have Intelligence or Wisdom to represent their shifty cunning and tricksy ways. Likewise Strength should be for the Orcs and Hobgoblins, but Constitution could be for Goblins in the sense that they are tough little survivors: the same way a husky is just a dog, but what a tough dog!

Orcs: S + C/W (for shamanic stuff)
Hobgoblins: S + C/D
Goblins: D + I/C
Kobolds: D + I/W




OK, a few flaws here.
1. Charisma is force of personality as well as "prettyness" and "social skills," so plenty could have it.
2. Some of these races, already have Cha bonuses, like the goblin and hobgoblin. And it makes sense for them too. Keep in mind, in your world they might all be brutes, but in worlds like Eberron they have a whole society.
3. Did you completely ignore the stat bonuses these races already have? Read the MM. 
I don't get why nobody has wanted Kobolds to be Con, Int/Dex, because they should probably be good as artificers to show off their propensity for traps, and an Int stat would also be good for Tuckers Kobolds-y tacticians
I don't get why nobody has wanted Kobolds to be Con, Int/Dex, because they should probably be good as artificers to show off their propensity for traps, and an Int stat would also be good for Tuckers Kobolds-y tacticians



Agreed.  Kobolds really need to do well as artificers, rogues, and dragon sorcerers.  That's why to this day I maintain that it was a mistake to make dragon sorcerers Str secondary.  Really, that was just to get the stats to match up with dragonborn.  (And now that they can be a Cha/Con race, that's not a problem).  Of course, ability scores alone don't determine best classes - there's also racial support.  But do we really think this article will include a lot of racial feats, especially of the class-specific variety?  Anyway, Int for Tucker's kobolds is so right.
I hate any abilty score reasoning that includes "it should be good at x class or build". I just think that's bad reasoning, mechanics as opposed to flavor.

Warforged shouldn't have a CON bonus because it makes them better Warlocks. Warforged should have a CON bonus because their flavor indicates that they're tougher than most other races. If their flavor didn't indicate that they be tougher than most other races, then they shouldn't have a CON bonus. Goliaths shouldn't have a STR bonus because it makes them better Barbarians. Goliaths should have a STR bonus because their flavor indicates that they're stronger than most other races. If their flavor didn't indicate that they be stronger than most other races, then they shouldn't have a STR bonus.

Likewise, Kobolds shouldn't have an INT bonus because it makes them better Artificers. Kobolds should have an INT bonus because their flavor indicates that they're smarter than most other races. If their flavor doesn't indicate that they be smarter than most other races, then they shouldn't have an INT bonus.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I hate any abilty score reasoning that includes "it should be good at x class or build".



Isn't 'the classes a race is good at' part of their flavor?
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Isn't 'the classes a race is good at' part of their flavor?

No, at least not always or not necessarily. Dwarves were always classic Fighters despite (until very recently) not getting a STR bonus. At the same time, they never had any particular flavor indicating they be great Druids or Shamans despite having a WIS bonus (and secondary CON) and meshing very mechanically well with those classes. The classes that a race excels at mechanically and the classes that a race stereotypically selects as dictated by flavor are not connected except by what essentially boils down to coincidence. Let's not forget about how horrible Halflings were at being Barbarians back in 3.5 Eberron or how Tieflings still aren't the optimal Infernal Warlock. If we want races to excel as members of specific classes or builds, then the much better way to do that is through racial feats and the like.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Eh, I disagree.  I think starting with what classes a race is supposed to be good at is the correct way to go about it.  Having only six ability scores means there will be some classes a race is accidentally good at (such as the aforementioned Warforged Warlock), but I don't perceive that as a particular problem.

F'rex, I still think elves should be +DEX, +STR/WIS ... because they're supposed to be good Rangers, and good with primal classes, that covers pretty much all of them.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I really think the "monster" races are an opportunity to give "flex" abilities that aren't stats. The pre-flex dwarf fighter and the human are a perfect examples of how other racial features can make a race fantastic at a class. Maybe kobolds could, instead of a flex stat, get access to a flex option that gives them some nice dragony elemental bonuses or defenses, or some sort of trap expertise ability.  
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A pureblood Yaun-ti could be a cool race as well. I'm trying to think of what other races could be in it as well.
As best as I can recall, we designed three new playable races for this book. Two have been mentioned in this thread but I don't remember if the third was talked about at DDXP.
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Well, I hope #3 isn't the Bladeling, which was confirmed for the future.  It's flavor has nothing at all to do with the dungeon environment.
But now I'm curious as to what that third race is.  It's the final days of 4e, so maybe something bizarre like the Mindflayer? 
oh...my...GOD!!! A developer!!! I'm not worthy!!!!!....also can we have a form of warlord subclass? Or a fighter or rouge controller build based on alchemy and archery? Come on man, Kobolds and goblins already have classes like that!!!
Eh, I disagree.  I think starting with what classes a race is supposed to be good at is the correct way to go about it.  Having only six ability scores means there will be some classes a race is accidentally good at (such as the aforementioned Warforged Warlock), but I don't perceive that as a particular problem.

F'rex, I still think elves should be +DEX, +STR/WIS ... because they're supposed to be good Rangers, and good with primal classes, that covers pretty much all of them.



I have to agree with the "classes a race is good at being" as being part of their flavour.  Then again, I also prefer cultural flavour attached to races, which I know ticks off those not interested in the base culture of D&D.

Also, new monster races, hells yesssssss.

When's the book coming out?
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