Fifth Edition Playtest Leaks: You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!

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That bit of scaremongering in the title aside, news of 5e have started to filter already. Mostly official stuff, but worth sinking the teeth into, and more is to come. What we know:

-Monte Cook has suggested eliminating the scaling bonus treadmill. You read that right, no more AB increase hunting. Back to the old days of THAC0?
-You pick your skills with themes instead of classes. 5e confirmed to be a great edition!
-Lowbie threats stay relevant. Those orcs you killed a bunch of levels ago? Can still kill you if you get cocky. Think LotR, but hopefully with more variety and less DMPCs.
-Fighter confirmed to have varying levels of complexity, Knight-and-Weaponmaster style.
-The Warlord is back. Dibs on their handbook.
-Devs admit the art look bad. Expect more Larry Elmore and Ciruelo. One good thing, one bad thing, I s'pose.
-Hints at the old combat-noncombat split hinted. ARGH

And a transcript, for the curious. Leaks are likely to follow, so keep your eyes peeled.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
THAC0 was clunky, but the same idea of no scaling bonuses? Awesome.

Lowbie threats staying relevant seems odd if there's a heroic/paragon/epic progression, but I'm mostly optimistic.

Hooray for varied complexity, and non-divine leader/healers.

 Art: I'm just hoping we get some sexualized near-naked men. 

Hopefully if there's a combat/noncombat split, the options at least don't compete for space in a character design.

Super excited about all of this. 
THAC0 was clunky, but the same idea of no scaling bonuses? Awesome.

Lowbie threats staying relevant seems odd if there's a heroic/paragon/epic progression, but I'm mostly optimistic.


If I understand correctly, I believe these two concepts are linked. I.e., lowbie threats stay relevant longer precisely because bonuses don't scale (or at least scale less steeply).

Currently, a high heroic PC team who meet a low heroic mob of monsters will stomp over them because they'll all be hitting on 2 while the monsters need 20. If the scaling bonuses to attack/defence go away, that changes.
Probably just drop the 1/2 level scaling.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Hopefully the lack of scaling bonuses will also mean that magic items aren't integral to the game's math.
In 4e, I never had a problem with orcs (or any other monster) being a threat across all levels.  It was so easy to build any monster for any level of threat.  That was one of the best things about 4e, imo. 

So, I guess I don't quite understand the need to move away from scaling bonuses. 
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23
Dev's admit what art looks bad?
So, I guess I don't quite understand the need to move away from scaling bonuses. 



It helps move the game closer to a simulationinst approach rather than a strictly narrative approach.  Since a large number of D&D players had trouble understanding the narrative aspects of D&D 4E while very few (I know of no one, actually) struggle to understand a simulationist approach, it makes sense that an edition designed to appeal to all players would incorporate more simulationist decisions than 4E did.

t~
So, I guess I don't quite understand the need to move away from scaling bonuses. 



It helps move the game closer to a simulationinst approach rather than a strictly narrative approach.  Since a large number of D&D players had trouble understanding the narrative aspects of D&D 4E while very few (I know of no one, actually) struggle to understand a simulationist approach, it makes sense that an edition designed to appeal to all players would incorporate more simulationist decisions than 4E did.

t~



Can you expand a little bit on what you mean by "narrative aspects"? 
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23
In 4e, I never had a problem with orcs (or any other monster) being a threat across all levels.  It was so easy to build any monster for any level of threat.  That was one of the best things about 4e, imo. 

So, I guess I don't quite understand the need to move away from scaling bonuses. 

Basicly it means no more minions.

Actually, if you scale HP more, but not attack/defense.  It should work nicely.

Edit: and by that i mean, a little more then 4e does.  say... +6/7/8 per level

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I may be alone here, but for what it's worth:

I enjoy playing a character that I can see progress in ability.  One of the ways this is realized is when, for example, my level 10 character (and companions) is confronted by a band of run-of-the-mill goblins, I mop the floor with them.  At level 1, it was a struggle.  At level 10, a breeze.

Without scaling bonuses, is it possible that players like myself might not feel that certain sense of growth in their characters?
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23
It looks like we'll ave Skills and Extended skills: www.enworld.org/forum/news/317318-semina...
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Without scaling bonuses, is it possible that players like myself might not feel that certain sense of growth in their characters?

Yes.

But not as quickly.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

This isn't 'leaked'. It was a seminar for public comsuption with no NDA required. This was stated clearly at the beginning, and there will be one each day until Monday.
Also, the paraphrasing was not always accurate. Monte said no scaling at one point and slower scaling at another.

The theme issue seemed more like themes would also contain background feature sorts of stuff, like extra class skills.
"Monte: For example, the basic game fighter might have specific level-bases abilities. Things that every fighter has. If you decide to get more customized, you can swap standard abilities for more complex, optional abilities. These are the kinds of things that feats do now. But the complex stuff is balanced with what's in the core. One character is more complex, but not necessarily more powerful."

So...if the complex options aren't any more powerful/effective, what will be the motivation to employ/purchase those options?  Why not just stick to the basic game?

Feats in 3e and 4e did a lot to expanding a character's options and making them more effective at what they did.  This sounds as if the options to increase complexity may be nothing more than doing essentially the same thing with different "fluff."

I suppose until the playtest gets here, it's just speculation at best. 
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23
"Monte: For example, the basic game fighter might have specific level-bases abilities. Things that every fighter has. If you decide to get more customized, you can swap standard abilities for more complex, optional abilities. These are the kinds of things that feats do now. But the complex stuff is balanced with what's in the core. One character is more complex, but not necessarily more powerful."

So...if the complex options aren't any more powerful/effective, what will be the motivation to employ/purchase those options?  Why not just stick to the basic game?

Feats in 3e and 4e did a lot to expanding a character's options and making them more effective at what they did.  This sounds as if the options to increase complexity may be nothing more than doing essentially the same thing with different "fluff."

I suppose until the playtest gets here, it's just speculation at best. 



Look at every fighting game ever for the answer. Versatility makes you stronger even if the tools don't gel with regards to a key purpose.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
I may be alone here, but for what it's worth:

I enjoy playing a character that I can see progress in ability.  One of the ways this is realized is when, for example, my level 10 character (and companions) is confronted by a band of run-of-the-mill goblins, I mop the floor with them.  At level 1, it was a struggle.  At level 10, a breeze.

Without scaling bonuses, is it possible that players like myself might not feel that certain sense of growth in their characters?




I think there may be something in between based on the basic design goals put forth here and elsewhere. Sure you may not be able to mop the floor with them, but they shouldn't be the hardest fight of the day, they should likely be the easiest. You could also fight more of them than you could at level 1, that's sort of the vibe I'm getting. We'll see if that's how it is.
"Monte: For example, the basic game fighter might have specific level-bases abilities. Things that every fighter has. If you decide to get more customized, you can swap standard abilities for more complex, optional abilities. These are the kinds of things that feats do now. But the complex stuff is balanced with what's in the core. One character is more complex, but not necessarily more powerful."

So...if the complex options aren't any more powerful/effective, what will be the motivation to employ/purchase those options?  Why not just stick to the basic game?

Feats in 3e and 4e did a lot to expanding a character's options and making them more effective at what they did.  This sounds as if the options to increase complexity may be nothing more than doing essentially the same thing with different "fluff."

I suppose until the playtest gets here, it's just speculation at best. 



Things like the Flail feat-chain would be the sort of complexity I'd hope for. If you're the 'tank' you can take abilities that increase your stickiness or toughness, and some of them will be in a complex way such as the interaction of the flail feats.


1 - Monte Cook has suggested eliminating the scaling bonus treadmill. You read that right, no more AB increase hunting. Back to the old days of THAC0?
2 - You pick your skills with themes instead of classes. 5e confirmed to be a great edition!
3 - Lowbie threats stay relevant. Those orcs you killed a bunch of levels ago? Can still kill you if you get cocky. Think LotR, but hopefully with more variety and less DMPCs.
4 - Fighter confirmed to have varying levels of complexity, Knight-and-Weaponmaster style.
5 - The Warlord is back. Dibs on their handbook.
6 - Devs admit the art look bad. Expect more Larry Elmore and Ciruelo. One good thing, one bad thing, I s'pose.
7 - Hints at the old combat-noncombat split hinted. ARGH


1 - HELLS YES!  Well, okay, maybe not to THAC0, but to the idea of not having to deal with a gorram treadmill?  Yay.  This should also be a strike towards magic item bonuses being non-integral
2 - With you here
3 - Where there's a whip, there's a way...
4 - This is an interesting one.  In answer to  Tal-eth's question about it, It's rule of cool.  the more complex options may not be numbers-wise more powerful than basic, but they will be more awesome, I'm sure.
5 - I seem to be the only one put out about this
6 - Yay?  I'd like to see more "oldschool" art, at least alongside the dungeon punk
7 - I like the "three pillars" approach.  it means the two pillars that aren't combat might actually get a little love.

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."
On Worldbuilding - On Crafting Aliens - Pillars of Art and Flavor - Simulationism, Narritivism, and Gamism - Shub-Niggurath in D&D
THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

"Monte: For example, the basic game fighter might have specific level-bases abilities. Things that every fighter has. If you decide to get more customized, you can swap standard abilities for more complex, optional abilities. These are the kinds of things that feats do now. But the complex stuff is balanced with what's in the core. One character is more complex, but not necessarily more powerful."

So...if the complex options aren't any more powerful/effective, what will be the motivation to employ/purchase those options?  Why not just stick to the basic game?

Feats in 3e and 4e did a lot to expanding a character's options and making them more effective at what they did.  This sounds as if the options to increase complexity may be nothing more than doing essentially the same thing with different "fluff."

I suppose until the playtest gets here, it's just speculation at best. 



Look at every fighting game ever for the answer. Versatility makes you stronger even if the tools don't gel with regards to a key purpose.



Perhaps that's how the complexity will play out.  If so, great!  If not...

I'm a member of the charop board, and I freely confess to liking my power. 
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23
I don't think CharOp will ever go away. There will always be better options, and CharOp will always be there to point out the holes in your inferior build and suggest the superior one.

On point #5 - YES YES YES WARLORDS ARE BEST

EDIT: I'm surprised there is not much mention of combat roles. I assumed that was a big talking point for some. Hopefully they touch on it over the weekend.
So...if the complex options aren't any more powerful/effective, what will be the motivation to employ/purchase those options?  Why not just stick to the basic game?



I'd point out that this is dependent on the designers recognizing how to make such options equally powerful/effective.
More complex will always be more powerful.  This happens because designers simply make mistakes.  If complex class A has access to 50 options, and simple class B is just always at a solid baseline, A is always gonna win.  If designers could actually make 50 equally balanced options, A would equal B, but this never happens, in any edition of D&D, ever.  Something more powerful always gets made, and then the complex class (which may have 5 abilities it chooses from the 50) becomes more powerful just by picking the top 5 abilities from the 50, which are at the overpowered edge of the bell curve.

This is pretty much the problem with any "choose X powers from Y available" system.  It depends on designers to make powers that are equal in strength.  But it only takes one designer to make a heroic tier power that should actually be an epic tier power to totally wreck the curve.

I'm not saying it's not doable, but it requires a perfect understanding of the math/balance behind the game that hardly anyone has, in practice.
twitter.com/#!/Wizards_DnD/status/162621...


STOKEKEKEEDKDKDKEEEKDDDDDD (Warlord background blurb)
Monte: Instead of the fighter getting a better and better attack bonus, he instead gets more options to do stuff as he goes up in level, and his attack bonus goes up at a very modest rate. I think it offers a better play experience that the orc/ogre can remain in the campaign, and people can know how the monster would work from a previous experience, but they remain a challenge for longer.

---

I think this means that the orc that's challenging at level 4 is also a threat at level 8, not that level 1s who were tough are a threat at level 10.

Certainly not the worst change ever.

P.S.  Minions better stay. 
Monte: Instead of the fighter getting a better and better attack bonus, he instead gets more options to do stuff as he goes up in level, and his attack bonus goes up at a very modest rate. I think it offers a better play experience that the orc/ogre can remain in the campaign, and people can know how the monster would work from a previous experience, but they remain a challenge for longer.

---

I think this means that the orc that's challenging at level 4 is also a threat at level 8, not that level 1s who were tough are a threat at level 10.

Certainly not the worst change ever.

P.S.  Minions better stay. 




I don't particularly see why minions would be removed, they still fill the gap of the "horde of weaklings", especially since lack of scaling would make this impossible to do with lower level enemies.
Well, people left the seminar cautiously optimistic by and large. These are living campaign players, who aren't exactly casual gamers.
Huh, this seems interesting.

A more simulationist game is a better game, I firmly believe. I've been tinkering with a 4E heroic rules set where most progress stops at level 6. I enjoy it a great deal more than the standard campaign, in which every PC is on the fast track to becoming a superhero. Level 1 monsters remain relevant; you can even throw scores of them at an optimized 6+2 party that hasn't had to burn its feat slots on Expertise etc. OTOH, a good level 10 solo is very rarely going to be beaten without a ton of preparation and planning; the party can't just round a corner and smack down Smaug.

I'd be thrilled if the developers went one step further and reintroduced a core part of the D&D experience that 4E all but officially extinguished: the very real need to assess threats. In 1E or 2E, recognizing a fight that was out of your weight class, and then running like hell, was an essential survival skill. It's also a staple of the genre; even Conan spends a large percentage of his time trying to outdistance an opposing force that he can't beat. 

A lot of work went into assuring that 4E encounters would be parsed out in digestible chunks. In hindsight, this crippled the narrative instinct of a lot of DMs. ("The Baron is dispatching his best knights to intercept us? What do you want to wager there's only 3 to 7 of them, and they're an L+2 or L+3 encounter? You have to wonder why a guy that powerful doesn't have the sense to send a full company of soldiers and make us abandon this quest.") The PCs should have to work to find fights that they can win, and subsequently exploit, and 5E players should be reintroduced to the undercurrent of terror that was part of any early-edition campaign. ;)

The PCs should have to work to find fights that they can win, and subsequently exploit, and 5E players should be reintroduced to the undercurrent of terror that was part of any early-edition campaign. ;)

Not all groups want to play that kind of game. For those that do, 4e still works fine, it's just LFR that doesn't.


5 - I seem to be the only one put out about this



No, you aren't. But i hope in Monte Cook, and his inherently spellcaster love ^^

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)

I could probably cry from reading that...random tables, exploration, non-microscopically focused grid, varied art, early threats staying threatening (which makes for interesting territory for D&D to explore).  I want to be playtesting this yesterday.  So stoked.  So happy these designers, especially Monte, are here.

Edit: Also, this should have been placed in the D&D Next forums?

Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
Set 1 — Somnia
Set 2 — TBD
Set 3 — TBD
Planeswalker's Guide to Somnia

Build Around This
A weekly MTG Cards and Combos forum game.
Build Around This #1 - Sage's Starfish Wish
BAT #1 was built using the Legacy format with Spiny Starfish, Sage's Knowledge, and Make a Wish. Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire with Fishy Starfishies. Runner-Up: JBTM

A more simulationist game is a better game, I firmly believe.





Play a few games of 4e Gurps and you may want to rethink that statement.  I like simulation as much as the next guy, but not at the expense of having fun and having the game flow smoothly.  Arguing about the heat index of lava (and having the rules support that) in the middle of a fantasy dungeon crawl is a real downer IMHO.

-Polaris  
Dev's admit what art looks bad?


Yeah, this as much as most of what's up there, I'd like to know about.  They had Ralph horseley working on the art recently, and he's awesome - the art was basically the best bit of the BoVD.l  And they're admitting the new art is bad?
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Art: I'm just hoping we get some sexualized near-naked men.

Best post in this thread.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Art: I'm just hoping we get some sexualized near-naked men.

Best post in this thread.



Don't give me illusions

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)

Art: I'm just hoping we get some sexualized near-naked men.

Best post in this thread.



Agree with that. If that will happen, I will buy 5e without second thought.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/21.jpg)


5 - I seem to be the only one put out about this



No, you aren't. But i hope in Monte Cook, and his inherently spellcaster love ^^



Why the Warlord hate?

A list of CharOp Handbooks I'm currently updating:

Heart of the Dragon: A Dragonborn's Handbook

Infernal Wrath: A Tiefling's Handbook

In my opinion, the Warlord was one of the best additions to the game we've had in a long time. I'm always a bit surprised when confronted with a dissenting view.

I've never met, in person, a gamer who doesn't like the class and its non-magical healing. (I assume that healing is the issue, for some.) We love leaving the Cleric back at the temple.
I enjoy playing a character that I can see progress in ability.  One of the ways this is realized is when, for example, my level 10 character (and companions) is confronted by a band of run-of-the-mill goblins, I mop the floor with them.  At level 1, it was a struggle.  At level 10, a breeze.

This.... rarely happens in 4e.

As it is, scaling level bonuses are almost completely irrelevant. You get 'em. The monsters get 'em.

The two negate each other.