DPR King Candidates 3.0

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Our top candidate for level 30 uses BB as written in the books, and most of us hope there is an errata for it soon, although we don't see much they can do with it. 

What are the differences between book and non-book brutal barrage?

As per Adventurer's Vault, page 180, Figurines with the Mount keyword have a particular exception to the mounted combat rules in that they gain a normal complement of actions while ridden and can be commanded to take them as a free action.

That isn't precisely what it says (nothing overrides the general rules for PCs on mounts that you share an action pool), so expect table variation (I've seen about 50/50 mix, mostly along geographical lines) - I'd suggest a tag if it makes a real DPS difference.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Okay, so I think I am doing this right. This is my first attempt at a candidate, so be gentle!
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 12
Bugbear, Assassin (Executioner)/Ranger, Avalanche Hurler
Guild Attacks (Hybrid) Option: Red Scales (Hybrid)
Hybrid Assassin (Executioner) Option: Hybrid Executioner Will
Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
Occupation - Thief (+2 to Thievery)
Theme: Noble Adept
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 11, DEX 23, INT 10, WIS 17, CHA 11
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 10, DEX 18, INT 9, WIS 14, CHA 10
 
 
AC: 26 Fort: 18 Ref: 22 Will: 20
HP: 78 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 19
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Dungeoneering +14, Nature +14, Stealth +19, Thievery +19
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, Athletics +7, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Endurance +6, Heal +9, History +6, Insight +9, Intimidate +8, Perception +9, Religion +6, Streetwise +6
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Noble Adept Feature: Adept's Insight
Bugbear Racial Power: Predatory Eye
Assassin Attack: Quick Lunge
Hunter's Quarry  Power: Hunter's Quarry
: Swap Daily For Poison Recipe
Seeker Feature: Inevitable Shot
Assassin Attack: Assassin's Strike
Ranger Attack: Rapid Shot
: Assassin's Strike (Additional Damage)
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike
Ranger Attack 1: Fox's Cunning
Seeker Attack 1: Grappling Spirits
Assassin Utility 2: Cloak of Shades
Ranger Attack 5: Spitting-Cobra Stance
Ranger Utility 6: Serpentine Dodge
Assassin Attack 9: Wall of Shadows
Assassin Utility 10: Walk Through Shadow
Avalanche Hurler Attack 11: Landslide Strike
Avalanche Hurler Utility 12: Quick-Draw Trick
 
FEATS
Level 1: Venom Hand Assassin
Level 2: Primal Sharpshooter
Level 4: Archery Mastery
Level 6: Light Blade Expertise
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Light blade)
Level 10: Lethal Hunter
Level 11: Primal Eye
Level 12: Deft Blade
 
ITEMS
Prime Shot Dagger (Large) +3
Farbond Spellblade Rapier (Large) +3 x1
Bracers of the Perfect Shot (heroic tier) x1
Genasi Soul Leather Armor +2 x1
Greenblood Oil
====== End ======


My primary attack is Rapid Shot. I'm thinking that since it is a Ranger power I should be able to use Quarry. Also, since it allows me to use RBAs I should get the usage of my Attack Finesse from the Executioner.

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Rapid Shot, with a light blade gives me:
 +18 v Ref
+6 Half Level
+6 Dex mod
+3 Profiencry
+3 Weapon Enhancement
+2 Feat Bonus
-2 Rapid Shot penalty
Deft Blade to target Ref
in a 3x3 (it's technically not a burst though).
The base damage is 1d12+19 (.7) + 1d12+19(.05)= (A)19.125  (0.159KPR)
Bugbear weapon upgrade plus Avalance Hurler takes the rapier from 1d8, to 1d10, to 1d12.
Dmg
+6 Dex
+6 Primal Eye
+3 Weapon
+2 Focus
+2 Bracers

(B)Assuming I Quarry one target, the attack would be 1d12+19+2d8(Q)+2d8(Venom Hand Assassin - must be the first attack of the encounter) = 32.625 (0.27KPR)

On a hit I can add an additional 2d8(Attack Finesse) and 4d10(Assassin Strike).(C) When added to the base it becomes 42.0 (0.35KPR), when added to the quarried target,(D) 55.875 (0.465KPR).

So if I have 3 targets, A(19.125), B(32.625), and C(42.0) I average 31.25 (0.26KPR). Or 93.75 cumulative dmg for 0.781KPR

If I unload on D(55.875) and hit 2 targets with damage A (19.125) I do an average of 31.375(0.26145KPR). Or 94.125 cumulative dmg for 0.784KPR

If I do the total burst, unloading on target D and hitting the other possible targets of which there could be 8, my cumulative DPR is 208.875 or 1.74KPR.
 


Math is not my strength and I am sure there are tenants of DPR/KPR that I don't quite grasp, but there you have it.

Also, I have Adept's Insight which I didn't figure in, and a way to gain Concealment/Invis once an encounter which would give me the use of Predatory Eye. After my initial turn I can also use Fox's Cunning to snag an offturn RBA.

I am certain there are improvements to be made and I will not be offended if someone can take this concept and make it better, or if someone just wants to point out that someone already did it, and did it better.
As per Adventurer's Vault, page 180, Figurines with the Mount keyword have a particular exception to the mounted combat rules in that they gain a normal complement of actions while ridden and can be commanded to take them as a free action.

That isn't precisely what it says (nothing overrides the general rules for PCs on mounts that you share an action pool), so expect table variation (I've seen about 50/50 mix, mostly along geographical lines) - I'd suggest a tag if it makes a real DPS difference.


I'd prefer that it be in the special column, unless people start using it more often.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
@Bohr: couple points of contention-
Rapid shot doesn't qualify for quarry. Its wonky, but your actual attack isn't rapid shot, but the RBA used. Unless /that/ RBA is also a ranger power, quarry is out (not that it should make much of a difference DPR wise).
I will need to double check the executioner's weapon finesse, but I believe it only applies to melee basics (as opposed to all basics), so IIRC, you can't stack that on your throws. I might be off, and if I am, its a cool use I hadn't thought of/seen before.
ATTACK FINESSE (EXECUTIONER)
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for your melee basic attacks.
    In addition, once per turn you can deal 1d8 extra damage with a weapon attack using a one-handed weapon, a garrote, a blowgun, or a shortbow. The extra damage increases to 2d8 at 11th level and 3d8 at 21st level.

The Quarry thing is fair though. Is there a Ranger RBA I should be looking for?
I believe the hybrid feature has different wording, but like I said, I might be wrong on that point. In which case, cool!

As for a ranger RBA, no. The usual trick for ranger hybrids is either a) just use twin strike (and get quarry) or b) pair up with a good rba hybrid for rapid shot and just ignore the quarry.
In the end, quarry is usually not worth the effort (save for a few niche tricks/builds) since it has targetting requirements you'd rather ignore more often than not while cutting into your action economy.
Hybrid reads:
ATTACK FINESSE (HYBRID)
You gain the benefit of the executioner’s Attack Finesse class feature, except that you can deal the extra damage only when using the required weapons with basic attacks, assassin powers, and assassin paragon path powers.

Since I'm using a one-handed weapon and making the attack on a basic attack, it seems okay to me.
Very nice. Wonder why I thought it was melee basic instead of just basic. That gives me some ideas to run through....
What are other things I need to stat out to have this character accepted? Or am I totally behind on damage calcs for multi-target builds and therefore shouldn't even bother?
What are other things I need to stat out to have this character accepted? Or am I totally behind on damage calcs for multi-target builds and therefore shouldn't even bother?


Give it a little time.  Most of the people that would give you advice and critique have day jobs and aren't always in the inspection mode.  I've seen an interesting coorelation between getting a high DPR/KPR and the how quickly errors get found.  There's nothing like butting in line and thus getting some attention.  It may also help if you put your KPR outside of the sblocks and bold it.  When you do submit a candidate it may help if you start with a 1-2 sentence summary of the trick you're using ending the summary with the output of your build (KPR).
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
@banysan: Regarding your Daring Blade-
You're expected DPR should be lower. Unless I am missing something, it looks like you are relying on your owlbear for CA. So your targets optimal choice is to first shift away from both you and the pet. You get to follow, but the owlbear doesn't. So now you no longer have CA (so no sneak) or benefit from the +2 aura bonus. Getting CA from somewhere else shouldn't be a problem, but in the end, you should remove the +2 from the aura since the bad will optimal move to avoid it.

@Borg: a thought that I don't think has been fleshed out since the new kpr format. In the past, assuming an arbitrary turn in the fight, it was standard practice to assume the prior turn you hit for things like frostcheese. But with the new turns 1-10 format planned out, is that still a good assumption from round 1? It seems off, although accounting for it might be burdensome to calc since now each successive turn has to account for the odds of outcomes from successive turns. It would certainly give more weight to currently ignored options for kings like Heroic Effort.
Perhaps a flat bonus on all turns after 1 equal to a percent of the full bonus in relation to your odds of hitting on round 1 (without those on hit bonuses).

So say a toon making use of froostcheese for CA and vuln has a base hit rate of 80%. So instead of just handwaving for a flat +2 / +5, they would get +1.6 to hit and +4 dmg on all turns past the first.
It isn't absolutely accurate, but it does account for builds that need to ramp up at the start and between monsters to some degree while not requiring anyone to solve differential problems that produce a dozen probability sets for the KPR.
@banysan: Regarding your Daring Blade- You're expected DPR should be lower. Unless I am missing something, it looks like you are relying on your owlbear for CA. So your targets optimal choice is to first shift away from both you and the pet. You get to follow, but the owlbear doesn't. So now you no longer have CA (so no sneak) or benefit from the +2 aura bonus. Getting CA from somewhere else shouldn't be a problem, but in the end, you should remove the +2 from the aura since the bad will optimal move to avoid it. @Borg: a thought that I don't think has been fleshed out since the new kpr format. In the past, assuming an arbitrary turn in the fight, it was standard practice to assume the prior turn you hit for things like frostcheese. But with the new turns 1-10 format planned out, is that still a good assumption from round 1? It seems off, although accounting for it might be burdensome to calc since now each successive turn has to account for the odds of outcomes from successive turns. It would certainly give more weight to currently ignored options for kings like Heroic Effort. Perhaps a flat bonus on all turns after 1 equal to a percent of the full bonus in relation to your odds of hitting on round 1 (without those on hit bonuses). So say a toon making use of froostcheese for CA and vuln has a base hit rate of 80%. So instead of just handwaving for a flat +2 / +5, they would get +1.6 to hit and +4 dmg on all turns past the first. It isn't absolutely accurate, but it does account for builds that need to ramp up at the start and between monsters to some degree while not requiring anyone to solve differential problems that produce a dozen probability sets for the KPR.


The problem is compounded for encounter power based candidates that rely on conditions in the hit line of the power that they rely on in subsequent rounds.  How do I say 80% of unconcious?
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Well, if they are just using that condition to trigger a DPR boost, then I would suggest the same: a % of the triggered boost equal to the odds of the condition being applied.
Now, if the build has a decision tree of some kind round-to-round based on what happend on previous turns, then ye, its gonna get messy. Such builds would likely need to do multiple KPR calcs for the different branches and then take a mean based on each branches possibility. But on the bright side, at least it would be an option for such build types, while right now bothering with it isn't worth the effort since simpler builds are getting a weighted bonus in their assumptions. I think such builds would actually better represent how people play anyway (especially since we have opened up to encounter powers and turn-by-turn), so getting a good aproximation of their output could be helpful.

Anyway, just a thought. Not certain of what would be the best option.
Alright, I just put together the rough draft of a Morninglord Battlemind/Ranger Hybrid with a divine multiclass. He is known as Sir Spamalot, due to his love of spamming augmented Brutal Barrages upon his enemies. Using a mix of radiant cheese, frost cheese, bloodied cheese and prime cheese (abusing Prime Shot) the DPR he can put out is absolutely obscene... In fact far to obscene for me to believe. I feel I must have made a mistake somewhere, or broken some rule of the DPR thread, because the damage he puts out puts him as the new king of DPR for level 16.

If you'd take a look to tell me if I did something wrong, that'd be great. It'd also be great if you could offer suggestions to improve the build further, since the power selection was chosen almost at random, there's room to move around feats for added benefits and I haven't looked at many items for him yet.

Note: Special shoutout to ThatWasTotallyNinja for suggesting the Crown/Shocking Flame combination to let me maintain my battlecrazed damage output and still get radiant damage on all my attacks. I'm not sure when I would have found that if it wasn't for his suggestion.

Now, the DPR.

Combined Mean DPR
12.0693 + [7(183.759) + 3(135.836875)]/10 = 181.4516625

Combined Mean KPR (not including encounter powers)
181.4516625/152 = 1.1937





How it's Done
Sir Spamalot uses his 7 powerpoints to augment Brutal Barrage every turn of the encounter, so we'll be factoring that in.

Attack Bonuses (+28) - So we should hit the target 30 AC of a level 16 foe if we roll a 2 or higher.
+7 Constitution Modifier
+8 Half Level
+4 Enhancement Bonus
+3 Proficiency Bonus
+2 Feat Bonus (Heavy Blade Expertise)
+2 Combat Advantage (Frost Cheese)
+2 Prime Shot (Prime Punisher/Prime Strike - Could be Prime Quarry with a minor stat change)

Static Damage (45 damage on each hit of Brutal Barrage)
+7 Constitution Modifier
+5 Called Shot
+7 Pelor's Sun Blessing
+10 Morninglord
+5 Cold Vulnerability
+2 Frozen Whetstone
+2 Shocking Flame
+7 Battlecrazed

Remember, we have 6 powerpoints - which is more than enough to use on brutal barrage every turn in an encounter so...

DPR = 171
45(0.95) + 45(0.95) + 45(0.95) + 45(0.95) = 171
 
Actually, it's even higher than that, since I haven't factored in Headsman's Chop, but honestly... I'm not sure how to calculate that DPR. And I haven't factored in criticals yet either, which would not be hard to work in... So I'll do that now.

Each hit has a 0.05 chance of scoring a critical, and due to Ring of Giants and the samurai background, each critical adds 4d6 (14) + 8 damage to the attack. So, that's a 0.05 chance  of dealing 22 extra damage on each of four hits...

Criticals (4.4)
22(.05) + 22(.05) + 22(.05) + 22(.05)  = 4.4

So, actual DPR is...


DPR = 175.4+ Headsman's Chop


Thanks to Borg's help, I'm going to now take a stab at calculating Headsman's Chop into the DPR.

Headsman's Chop adds 5 damage against prone opponents. Brutal barrage needs to hit two times in order to make the target prone. So...

0.95 x 0.95 x 0.95 x 5 = 4.286875 (The chance of getting the first 5 headsman's chop damage).

0.95 x 0.95 x 0.95 x 0.95  x 5 = 4.0725 (The chance of getting the second 5 headsman's chop damage).


Headsman's Chop DPR = 8.359
4.286875+4.0725 = 8.359

That's a hefty bit of added damage right away, so let's take a look at the new DPR

DPR = 183.759


Using the formula for KPR, let's translate that.

KPR = 1.2089
8(16)+24 = 152 
183.759/152 = 1.2089

That's way over 9000 and I haven't even factored in encounter powers yet. But, we can only keep that damage up for the 7 turns of the encounter - due to reliance on power points. That's enough to slaughter 8 monsters or more, and the xp budget only provides for 5 standard monsters in most cases, but let's see if this guy can go the distance. To find the mean KPR over 10 rounds we have to factor in the last 3 turns where he'll only be swinging 3 attacks. (Note: I just realized that this makes the Sohei background's Sohei Flurry power potentially even more devestating than the extra power point from Noble Adept - which will be explored later).

DPR for Unaugmented Brutal Barrage (135.836875)
+128.25 Static Modifiers
+3.3 Critical
+4.286875 Headsman's Chop

Combined Mean DPR
[7(183.759) + 3(135.836875)]/10 = 169.3823625

Combined Mean KPR
169.3823625/152 = 1.114

Bam! Still significantly over 9000 even before tapping encounter power boosts like the Genasi Stormsoul's racial power, minor actions from ranger attacks and similar.

Huge special shoutout to Thatwastotallyninja for his excellent suggestion of the Shocking Flame/Crown of the Brilliant Sun find to add radiant damage in a way that lets me cheep the battlecrazed cheese humming. It's fitting that a crown should make a new DPR King.


Even more damage!
Sir Spamalot hasn't even touched on his encounter powers yet. This is because I haven't worked into choosing most of them yet, but I'll show you what he can do so far. These numbers haven't been added to the total combined DPR yet, because they're probably going to change a lot as I fiddle with them with and I don't want to redo all the calculations every time I make an edit. So far I've added 12.0693 DPR to the combined mean, so feel free to factor that in.

Stormsoul (+6.84 Mean DPR)
2d8 extra damage for each smack for two whole turns. That averages out to 9 damage each hit. Over two turns, you'll be making 8 attacks with 95% accuracy - which adds up to 68.4 extra damage. Divide that by 10 over a ten round encounter and you're adding 6.84 Mean DPR. That's not too shabby for one encounter power!

Ruffling Sting (+3.2343 mean DPR)
Ruffling Sting doesn't use Constitution and makes you use your pathetic off-hand weapon (the handaxe) so the accuracy is pathetic, but it IS extra damage. You hit on rolling an 11 or higher, which turns into a 50% chance to hit. If you do hit though, you'll deal 45 (static) + 4.286 (headsman's chop) + 3.5 (weapon damage) +1 (enhancement) + 3 (strength modifier) +7 (finally get to use your hunter's quarry damage!). That adds up to 63.786, but with the 50% chance to hit, that's only 31.893 damage. Add in another 0.45 damage due to the chance of scoring a critical and then divide it by 10 over a ten round encounter and you get 3.2343 added to the mean DPR.

Concussive Response (+1.995 mean DPR)
Concusive Response lets you add +1d6 damage as a free action to your unaugmented psionic attacks for two turns. 3.5 multiplied over the six attacks you'll make with a 95% chance to hit adds up to 19.95 damage. Divide that by 10 and you get another 1.995 mean DPR.


How is he always bloodied?
Sir Spamalot uses his Battle Harness to provide action economy, allowing him to draw one of his Blood Fury Handaxes and use it every other round - then dropping it as a free action (gathering them up again at the end of the encounter). This keeps him bloodied for the full 10 rounds and dealing his Battlecrazed damage. It makes sense that a guy who whips his blade back and forth so much would be strapped all over with weapons... And that's a totally badass image.

Here's the build itself. When looking at it, please bear in mind that it's still a rough draft. The power selection is particularly terrible, and isn't even complete (just chose what I needed to get the power point feature working). If you can reccomend any ways to improve the build's DPR, that'd be great. It's barely my 5th week working on Character Optimization.


Sir Spamalot

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Sir Spamalot, level 16
Genasi, Battlemind/Ranger, Morninglord
Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Reflex
Hybrid Talent Option: Ranger Combat Talent
Ranger Combat Talent Option: Prime Shot (Hybrid)
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid) Option: Hybrid Power Point Option
Elemental Manifestation Option: Stormsoul
Proficiency: Choose Nothing
Gritty Sergeant (Gritty Sergeant Benefit)
Theme: Noble Adept

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 24, DEX 12, INT 13, WIS 14, CHA 9

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 18, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 8


AC: 20 Fort: 26 Ref: 20 Will: 21
HP: 112 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 28

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +14, Endurance +22, Insight +15, Perception +15, Religion +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +9, Athletics +11, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +9, Intimidate +7, Nature +12, Stealth +9, Streetwise +7, Thievery +9

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Noble Adept Feature: Adept's Insight
Genasi Racial Power: Promise of Storm
Battlemind Feature: Battlemind's Demand
Battlemind Feature: Blurred Step
Hunter's Quarry Power: Hunter's Quarry
Avenger Feature: Oath of Enmity
Ranger Attack 1: Fading Strike
Battlemind Attack 1: Living Fortress
Ranger Utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Ranger Attack 3: Ruffling Sting
Ranger Attack 5: Hunter's Confrontation
Endurance Utility 6: Third Wind
Battlemind Attack 7: Body Double
Battlemind Utility 10: Iron Warding
Morninglord Attack 11: Pure Glow
Morninglord Utility 12: Rising Sun
Battlemind Attack 13: Brutal Barrage
Battlemind Attack 15: Mind Blade
Battlemind Utility 16: Instant Move

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Headsman's Chop
Level 6: Wintertouched
Level 8: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 10: Prime Strike
Level 11: Called Shot
Level 12: Lasting Frost
Level 14: Shocking Flame
Level 16: Disciple of Divine Wrath
Level 16: Prime Punisher

ITEMS
Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier)
Pelor's Sun Blessing (level 3)
Ring of Giants x1
Battlecrazed Longsword +4 x1
Blood Fury Handaxe +1 x6
Dice of Auspicious Fortune
Crown of the Brilliant Sun x1
Battle Harness Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +1 x1
====== End ======


Alright, I just put together the rough draft of a Morninglord Battlemind/Ranger Hybrid with a divine multiclass. He is known as Sir Spamalot, due to his love of spamming augmented Brutal Barrages upon his enemies. Using a mix of radiant cheese, frost cheese, bloodied cheese and prime cheese (abusing Prime Shot) the DPR he can put out is absolutely obscene... In fact far to obscene for me to believe. I feel I must have made a mistake somewhere, or broken some rule of the DPR thread, because the damage he puts out puts him far and away as the new King of level 16.

If you'd take a look to tell me if I did something wrong, that'd be great. It'd also be great if you could offer suggestions to improve the build further, since the power selection was chosen almost at random, there's room to move around feats for added benefits and I haven't looked at many items for him yet.

Now, the DPR.

Sir Spamalot uses his 7 powerpoints to augment Brutal Barrage every turn of the encounter, so we'll be factoring that in.

Attack Bonuses (+28) - So we should hit the target 30 AC of a level 16 foe if we roll a 2 or higher.
+7 Constitution Modifier
+8 Half Level
+4 Enhancement Bonus
+3 Proficiency Bonus
+2 Feat Bonus (Heavy Blade Expertise)
+2 Combat Advantage (Frost Cheese)
+2 Prime Shot (Prime Punisher/Prime Quarry)

Static Damage (43 damage on each hit of Brutal Barrage)
+7 Constitution Modifier
+5 Called Shot
+7 Pelor's Sun Blessing
+10 Morninglord/Pervasive Light
+5 Cold Vulnerability
+2 Frozen Whetstone
+7 Battlecrazed

Remember, we have 7 powerpoints - which is more than enough to use on brutal barrage every turn in an encounter so...

DPR = 163.4 
43(0.95) + 43(0.95) + 43(0.95) + 43(0.95) = 163.4
 
Actually, it's even higher than that, since I haven't factored in Headsman's Chop, but honestly... I'm not sure how to calculate that DPR. And I haven't factored in criticals yet either, which would not be hard to work in... So I'll do that now.

Each hit has a 0.05 chance of scoring a critical, and due to Ring of Giants, each critical adds 4d6 (14) + 8 damage to the attack. So, that's a 0.05 chance of dealing 22 extra damage on each of four hits...

Criticals (4.4)
22(.05) + 22(.05) + 22(.05) + 22(.05)  = 4.4

So, actual DPR is...


DPR = 167.8 + Headsman's Chop


Using the formula for KPR, let's translate that.

KPR = 1.104 (not factoring in Headsman's Chop)
8(16)+24 = 152 
152/167.8= 1.104

That's definitely over 9000.

Interestingly, the build takes advantage of Radiant Cheese without ever actually dealing Radiant Damage. Pervasive Light and Pelor's Cheesy Blessing only care if the target has vulnerability to radiant damage - not if you deal radiant damage. This makes it much harder to shut you down.

Now, a thing about the bloody cheese. The way it's achieved is to buy several bloodfury handaxes and use them in your off-hand. Since they last until the end of your next turn - you can afford to pull one out and activate it as a minor action (quickdraw allowing you to draw it for free) then stow it on your next turn with that minor action... Then draw a new one on your turn after that. I had originally gone looking for a consumable like Frozen Whetstone for this constant-bloodied trait, but this works just as well. Plus, it makes sense that a badass spamalot would have weapons strapped all over him. That would look so cool.

Note: If your DM won't let you buy multiple Blood Fury weapons, you can up the DPR by taking the mercenary theme - adding 1d6 to your crits (for a total of about 0.7 extra DPR). You lose a powerpoint, but with the numbers you're putting up - 6 powerpoints should be enough to finish an encounter.

Here's the build itself. When looking at it, please bear in mind that it's an obscenely rough draft - put together in under an hour. The power selection is particularly terrible, and isn't even complete (just chose what I needed to get the power point feature working). The feats are also muddled and I haven't put any thought into defense. If you can reccomend any ways to improve the build's DPR, that'd be great. It's barely my 5th week working on Character Optimization.


Sir Spamalot
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Sir Spamalot, level 16
Human, Battlemind/Ranger, Morninglord
Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Reflex
Hybrid Talent Option: Ranger Combat Talent
Ranger Combat Talent Option: Prime Shot (Hybrid)
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid) Option: Hybrid Power Point Option
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Proficiency: Choose Nothing
Gritty Sergeant (Gritty Sergeant Benefit)
Theme: Noble Adept

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 9, CON 24, DEX 16, INT 11, WIS 15, CHA 11

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 18, DEX 13, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 10


AC: 21 Fort: 26 Ref: 23 Will: 22
HP: 112 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 28

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Endurance +20, Insight +15, Perception +15, Religion +13, Stealth +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +8, Athletics +7, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +8, Intimidate +8, Nature +10, Streetwise +8, Thievery +11

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Noble Adept Feature: Adept's Insight
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Battlemind Feature: Battlemind's Demand
Battlemind Feature: Blurred Step
Hunter's Quarry Power: Hunter's Quarry
Avenger Feature: Oath of Enmity
Ranger Attack 1: Fading Strike
Battlemind Attack 1: Aspect of Bitter Ice
Ranger Attack 3: Avenging Charge
Ranger Utility 6: Death Threat
Battlemind Attack 7: Body Double
Battlemind Utility 10: Uncanny Senses
Morninglord Attack 11: Pure Glow
Morninglord Utility 12: Rising Sun
Battlemind Attack 13: Brutal Barrage
Battlemind Utility 16: Instant Move

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Disciple of Divine Wrath
Level 4: Headsman's Chop
Level 6: Wintertouched
Level 8: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 10: Quick Draw
Level 11: Called Shot
Level 12: Lasting Frost
Level 14: Pervasive Light
Level 15: Prime Quarry
Level 16: Prime Punisher

ITEMS
Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier)
Pelor's Sun Blessing (level 3)
Ring of Giants
Battlecrazed Longsword +4 x1
Blood Fury Handaxe +1 x6
====== End ======


You do, in fact, need to use a radiant power to give an enemy the Morninglord's vulnerability. But a good build!
Alright, I just put together the rough draft of a Morninglord Battlemind/Ranger Hybrid with a divine multiclass. He is known as Sir Spamalot, due to his love of spamming augmented Brutal Barrages upon his enemies. Using a mix of radiant cheese, frost cheese, bloodied cheese and prime cheese (abusing Prime Shot) the DPR he can put out is absolutely obscene... In fact far to obscene for me to believe. I feel I must have made a mistake somewhere, or broken some rule of the DPR thread, because the damage he puts out puts him far and away as the new King of level 16.

If you'd take a look to tell me if I did something wrong, that'd be great. It'd also be great if you could offer suggestions to improve the build further, since the power selection was chosen almost at random, there's room to move around feats for added benefits and I haven't looked at many items for him yet.

Now, the DPR.

Sir Spamalot uses his 7 powerpoints to augment Brutal Barrage every turn of the encounter, so we'll be factoring that in.

Attack Bonuses (+28) - So we should hit the target 30 AC of a level 16 foe if we roll a 2 or higher.
+7 Constitution Modifier
+8 Half Level
+4 Enhancement Bonus
+3 Proficiency Bonus
+2 Feat Bonus (Heavy Blade Expertise)
+2 Combat Advantage (Frost Cheese)
+2 Prime Shot (Prime Punisher/Prime Quarry)

Static Damage (43 damage on each hit of Brutal Barrage)
+7 Constitution Modifier
+5 Called Shot
+7 Pelor's Sun Blessing
+10 Morninglord/Pervasive Light
+5 Cold Vulnerability
+2 Frozen Whetstone
+7 Battlecrazed

Remember, we have 7 powerpoints - which is more than enough to use on brutal barrage every turn in an encounter so...

DPR = 163.4 
43(0.95) + 43(0.95) + 43(0.95) + 43(0.95) = 163.4
 
Actually, it's even higher than that, since I haven't factored in Headsman's Chop, but honestly... I'm not sure how to calculate that DPR. And I haven't factored in criticals yet either, which would not be hard to work in... So I'll do that now.

Each hit has a 0.05 chance of scoring a critical, and due to Ring of Giants, each critical adds 4d6 (14) + 8 damage to the attack. So, that's a 0.05 chance of dealing 22 extra damage on each of four hits...

Criticals (4.4)
22(.05) + 22(.05) + 22(.05) + 22(.05)  = 4.4

So, actual DPR is...


DPR = 167.8 + Headsman's Chop


Using the formula for KPR, let's translate that.

KPR = 1.104 (not factoring in Headsman's Chop)
8(16)+24 = 152 
152/167.8= 1.104

That's definitely over 9000.

Interestingly, the build takes advantage of Radiant Cheese without ever actually dealing Radiant Damage. Pervasive Light and Pelor's Cheesy Blessing only care if the target has vulnerability to radiant damage - not if you deal radiant damage. This makes it much harder to shut you down.

Now, a thing about the bloody cheese. The way it's achieved is to buy several bloodfury handaxes and use them in your off-hand. Since they last until the end of your next turn - you can afford to pull one out and activate it as a minor action (quickdraw allowing you to draw it for free) then stow it on your next turn with that minor action... Then draw a new one on your turn after that. I had originally gone looking for a consumable like Frozen Whetstone for this constant-bloodied trait, but this works just as well. Plus, it makes sense that a badass spamalot would have weapons strapped all over him. That would look so cool.

Note: If your DM won't let you buy multiple Blood Fury weapons, you can up the DPR by taking the mercenary theme - adding 1d6 to your crits (for a total of about 0.7 extra DPR). You lose a powerpoint, but with the numbers you're putting up - 6 powerpoints should be enough to finish an encounter.

Here's the build itself. When looking at it, please bear in mind that it's an obscenely rough draft - put together in under an hour. The power selection is particularly terrible, and isn't even complete (just chose what I needed to get the power point feature working). The feats are also muddled and I haven't put any thought into defense. If you can reccomend any ways to improve the build's DPR, that'd be great. It's barely my 5th week working on Character Optimization.


Sir Spamalot
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Sir Spamalot, level 16
Human, Battlemind/Ranger, Morninglord
Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Reflex
Hybrid Talent Option: Ranger Combat Talent
Ranger Combat Talent Option: Prime Shot (Hybrid)
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid) Option: Hybrid Power Point Option
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Proficiency: Choose Nothing
Gritty Sergeant (Gritty Sergeant Benefit)
Theme: Noble Adept

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 9, CON 24, DEX 16, INT 11, WIS 15, CHA 11

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 18, DEX 13, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 10


AC: 21 Fort: 26 Ref: 23 Will: 22
HP: 112 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 28

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Endurance +20, Insight +15, Perception +15, Religion +13, Stealth +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +8, Athletics +7, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +8, Intimidate +8, Nature +10, Streetwise +8, Thievery +11

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Noble Adept Feature: Adept's Insight
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Battlemind Feature: Battlemind's Demand
Battlemind Feature: Blurred Step
Hunter's Quarry Power: Hunter's Quarry
Avenger Feature: Oath of Enmity
Ranger Attack 1: Fading Strike
Battlemind Attack 1: Aspect of Bitter Ice
Ranger Attack 3: Avenging Charge
Ranger Utility 6: Death Threat
Battlemind Attack 7: Body Double
Battlemind Utility 10: Uncanny Senses
Morninglord Attack 11: Pure Glow
Morninglord Utility 12: Rising Sun
Battlemind Attack 13: Brutal Barrage
Battlemind Utility 16: Instant Move

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Disciple of Divine Wrath
Level 4: Headsman's Chop
Level 6: Wintertouched
Level 8: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 10: Quick Draw
Level 11: Called Shot
Level 12: Lasting Frost
Level 14: Pervasive Light
Level 15: Prime Quarry
Level 16: Prime Punisher

ITEMS
Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier)
Pelor's Sun Blessing (level 3)
Ring of Giants
Battlecrazed Longsword +4 x1
Blood Fury Handaxe +1 x6
====== End ======


You do, in fact, need to use a radiant power to give an enemy the Morninglord's vulnerability. But a good build!



Gah, missed that! Any suggestions on how to add radiant to Brutal Barrage?

Thanks.  
Pervasive Light makes it difficult to find a method of adding the radiant keyword to the power w/o dealing radiant damage.  
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Pervasive Light makes it difficult to find a method of adding the radiant keyword to the power w/o dealing radiant damage.  



Well, if I'm actually dealing radiant damage - I won't need Pervasive Light anymore to take advantage of the vulnerability.

Edit - Could use a Sunblade of course, but it'd be a shame to lose the Battlecrazed Bloody Cheese. That adds so much damage.
Pervasive Light makes it difficult to find a method of adding the radiant keyword to the power w/o dealing radiant damage.  



Well, if I'm actually dealing radiant damage - I won't need Pervasive Light anymore to take advantage of the vulnerability.

Edit - Could use a Sunblade of course, but it'd be a shame to lose the Battlecrazed Bloody Cheese. That adds so much damage.


There are so many times a brothers grimm duo build would be so nice.  Welcome to optimization.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Pervasive Light makes it difficult to find a method of adding the radiant keyword to the power w/o dealing radiant damage.  



Well, if I'm actually dealing radiant damage - I won't need Pervasive Light anymore to take advantage of the vulnerability.

Edit - Could use a Sunblade of course, but it'd be a shame to lose the Battlecrazed Bloody Cheese. That adds so much damage.


There are so many times a brothers grimm duo build would be so nice.  Welcome to optimization.



So... Does that mean that the sunblade is the only feasible way to add radiant damage?
I'm thinking so.  Also you don't need to stow the bloodfury weapons, just drop them and gather them at the end of combat.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I'm thinking so.  Also you don't need to stow the bloodfury weapons, just drop them and gather them at the end of combat.



Dang, too bad. Good point on dropping the blood furry weapons too, that would free up a feat slot in any case.

But, due to the necessity of a sunblade, I've dropped the bloody cheese for now.

Now I have 2 feats open to add in some more DPR, what with Quickdraw and Pervasive Light no longer being relevant. Thinking of switching to a weapon with the high crit property and another Prime feat to counter the accuracy lost for some extra dpr. Unless someone can think of a more efficent way to add up the damage.

Edit: Actually, I can just grab a Falchion, which doesn't require the extra feat investment. So, I add 5.1 DPR due to doubling crit chances and STILL have 2 feats open.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to add even more damage to this guy?

Also - if anyone knows how to calculate the damage for headsman's chop, that'd be great too.
See my sheet on the google docs and it'll make sense.  docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqL...
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
See my sheet on the google docs and it'll make sense.  docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqL...



Thanks, I think I got enough to calculate the vast majority of the headman's chop damage.

The end result... 2 extra feats and a KPR of over 1.

Does that mean we have a new king?
KPR is figured over 10 turns as well, so your average KPR is going to drop after turn 7 when you run out of power points. Need to include that in your calcs.

That is off a quick review, will look into the build further providing time to do so.
KPR is figured over 10 turns as well, so your average KPR is going to drop after turn 7 when you run out of power points. Need to include that in your calcs.

That is off a quick review, will look into the build further providing time to do so.



Really? Why is that? I mean, based on a normal xp budget the encounter should be over in 5-6 turns.

If we're factoring in encounter-long issues, then wouldn't we also factor in encounter powers and things? Like minor action encounter attacks?
KPR is figured over 10 turns as well, so your average KPR is going to drop after turn 7 when you run out of power points. Need to include that in your calcs.

That is off a quick review, will look into the build further providing time to do so.



Really? Why is that? I mean, based on a normal xp budget the encounter should be over in 5-6 turns.

If we're factoring in encounter-long issues, then wouldn't we also factor in encounter powers and things? Like minor action encounter attacks?


There are two round encounter "Nova" builds and then there are indefinite encounter length (using KPR, KP5R, and KP10R as guides) at-will builds. You choose which category to put your build into.
If we're factoring in encounter-long issues, then wouldn't we also factor in encounter powers and things? Like minor action encounter attacks?


Yup, we are indeed doing that in DPR Kings 3.

In the older DPR Kings threads, it was "infinite rounds" at-will DPR...but this thread calculates things differently (and a bit more realistically).

As for how to use your two feats: don't be a Human, be a Stormsoul Genasi instead. Take Shocking Flame.

Now with your items, grab a Crown of the Brilliant Sun, and suddenly you're dealing radiant damage with every attack. Feel free to go back to bloodied cheese if you like (use Battle Harness for armor)...or you could pick up a Staff of Corrosion to get the damage roll with only a small accuracy loss (don't think anyone's used that item this way before; maybe I should post it somewhere).

I had actually been thinking about putting a similar build together a few days ago, but it's close enough to yours that I'll say "you beat me to it." Mine was going to be a Human Battlemind|Blackguard/KAM with Virtuous Strike, Power of Sun, Frostcheese, and the BB+Staff of Corrosion combo. I think it's easy to see the damage potential, not sure which one would work out higher in the end. But I'm getting bored with pure TheoryOp builds, I'm trying to make it more of a practical defender/striker instead, a la Achilles (will post when I've worked out the kinks).
If we're factoring in encounter-long issues, then wouldn't we also factor in encounter powers and things? Like minor action encounter attacks?


Yup, we are indeed doing that in DPR Kings 3.

In the older DPR Kings threads, it was "infinite rounds" at-will DPR...but this thread calculates things differently (and a bit more realistically).

As for how to use your two feats: don't be a Human, be a Stormsoul Genasi instead. Take Shocking Flame.

Now with your items, grab a Crown of the Brilliant Sun, and suddenly you're dealing radiant damage with every attack. Feel free to go back to bloodied cheese if you like (use Battle Harness for armor)...or you could pick up a Staff of Corrosion to get the damage roll with only a small accuracy loss (don't think anyone's used that item this way before; maybe I should post it somewhere).

I had actually been thinking about putting a similar build together a few days ago, but it's close enough to yours that I'll say "you beat me to it." Mine was going to be a Human Battlemind|Blackguard/KAM with Virtuous Strike, Power of Sun, Frostcheese, and the BB+Staff of Corrosion combo. I think it's easy to see the damage potential, not sure which one would work out higher in the end. But I'm getting bored with pure TheoryOp builds, I'm trying to make it more of a practical defender/striker instead, a la Achilles (will post when I've worked out the kinks).



Thanks TWTN! Adding the bloodied cheese back in, let alone shocking flame, will spike the DPR through the roof.  I'll work on it tomorrow, or perhaps later tonight. Been juggling this build all day.

Actually, if you want to talk practical build - you could spend those two feats on defenses instead and spend most all your utility powers on defense too - which would make the build perfectly suitable for most gaming tables while still putting up its insane numbers.

See my sheet on the google docs and it'll make sense.  docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqL...


I just realized that I made a false assumption in my calculation.
Let's assume that all 4 attacks hit.
first attack hits, no prone target
second attack hits you get to prone the target, but you did not hit a prone target yet.
Third attack hits a prone target: add 5 damage
fourth attack hits a prone target: add 5 damage

Total damage contribution = 10.  
Chance all 4 attacks hit(85% initial chance to hit, 95% subsequent attacks) = 75%
approximate DPR contribution = 7.5

The false assumption in my calculation was that on your second and subsequent hits you got to add 5 damage.  Headman's chop doesn't say "add 5 damage if the target is prone" but "if you hit a prone target add 5 damage."  There's a huge difference.  The former you could weasel your way into saying that on the second hit's damage roll you got to add 5 damage.  But this is false.

 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
See my sheet on the google docs and it'll make sense.  docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqL...


I just realized that I made a false assumption in my calculation.
Let's assume that all 4 attacks hit.
first attack hits, no prone target
second attack hits you get to prone the target, but you did not hit a prone target yet.
Third attack hits a prone target: add 5 damage
fourth attack hits a prone target: add 5 damage

Total damage contribution = 10.  
Chance all 4 attacks hit(85% initial chance to hit, 95% subsequent attacks) = 75%
approximate DPR contribution = 7.5

The false assumption in my calculation was that on your second and subsequent hits you got to add 5 damage.  Headman's chop doesn't say "add 5 damage if the target is prone" but "if you hit a prone target add 5 damage."  There's a huge difference.  The former you could weasel your way into saying that on the second hit's damage roll you got to add 5 damage.  But this is false.

 



Yeah, you only get the damage ont he 3rd and 4th hits. I factored that into my own calculations.
Some tables, you'll only prone after you resolve the 3-4 attacks. No idea where the prevailing winds are on that one though.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Some tables, you'll only prone after you resolve the 3-4 attacks. No idea where the prevailing winds are on that one though.



At those tables, you'll have to adjust the DPR  - but rules as written it seems that each attack resolves individually and would thus trigger the damage.
Some tables, you'll only prone after you resolve the 3-4 attacks. No idea where the prevailing winds are on that one though.



At those tables, you'll have to adjust the DPR  - but rules as written it seems that each attack resolves individually and would thus trigger the damage.


From what I see there are 3 types of groups
1) Resolve the hit seperatly from the damage roll


  • If I have a free action weapon swap I can deal damage with a different weapon than what I hit with, posisbly adding new keywords, and then the world explodes


2) Nothing should change between hitting and damaging


  • Most intuitive and accepted


3) Resolve the entire attack power before applying any effects


  • There are numerous things that the boards would tear into a group for this interpretation 



I havent' seen too many builds that use (1), but would be tagged as cheesy if they did so.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
but rules as written it seems that each attack resolves individually and would thus trigger the damage.

Depends on which rules you look at - and in particular the real reason for the table variation will be how badly some of these "make 3-4 attacks" in the attack line powers are written with respect to the "do each thing in the order listed" as compared to, say, area or close powers where it's clear. The Rules Compendium clarified the issue for some people, and best of all, it clarified it in _different ways_ for different people, and some people never switched gears at all from the original PH melee/ranged vs area/close handling.

So, a table knows that, frex, Hymn of Resurgence they don't get to make a save per enemy hit (you don't trigger the Effect line more than once). Similarly, Sweeping Slash you only make the secondary on one target, rather than per primary target as you iterate through.

And then Brutal Barrage comes up and either gets handled as "roll the attacks and resolve the hits, then handle the effect, in order, like it says for handling powers" or "roll the attack, hit, effect, repeat 2-3 more times, like it says for handling melee" varying by table and who you ask. It's annoying.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Sir Francis Bacon feels more like something that belongs in the handbook of broken.  I do appreciate you finding this exploit.  It might help the designers make more robust feats/items....
It just feels like it's a different class of exploitation.

As per the AC problems of the monk, there are many worse offenders, and we haven't shunned them, and I don't think we will.  I feel that I would be unfairly biasing this thread if I imposed a defense/survivability minimum.  I don't disagree with you that to be a competant striker you must be able to survive long enough to kill your target.  But there is a sweet spot between obvious game breakers (Sir Francis Bacon and Revenants) and well rounded strikers (Stormwarden) where the DPR king candidates sits.

If anyone sees that a build spent more than he/she should have, please bring them up and we'll invalidate the build till they can fit through the eye.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Because no-one else posted it yet, here's a level 16 Goliath Ardent build that uses the augment 1 of Forward-Thinking Cut and Kulkor Arms Master to attack 3 times per round for the cost of 1 measly power point. It reaches 80.68 DPR, or 0.53 KPR.

Level 16 Goliath Ardent
22 Cha, 13 Str, 11 Con, Dex 17, Wis 16, Int 9

-- Powers: Forward-Thinking Cut, Intent Laid Bare.
-- Feats: Greatspear Proficiency, Spear Expertise, Battle Awareness, Silvery Glow, Kulkor Battlearm Student, Wintertouched, Lasting Frost, Avalanche Reaver, Polearm Momentum, Surprising Charge
-- Paragon Path: Kulkor Arms Master
-- Items: +3 Frost Greatspear, Avalanche Boots, Horned Helmet (Paragon), Syberis Shard of Merciless Cold (Paragon), Gloves of Ice (Paragon), Iron Armbands of Power (Paragon)


Attack sequence:
Attack 1:
- Attack with augment 1 Forward-Thinking Cut from 2 squares away with reach.
Attack 2 (charge):
- Regardless whether you hit or not, the augment 1 lets you shift 1 square backwards and charge the same enemy.
- On a hit, you push the target 1 square thanks to Avalanche Reaver. Avalanche Boots increases the push by 1, which triggers Polearm Momentum, which triggers Smite the Fallen. You shift 2 squares with Avalanche Boots and Avalanche Reaver within 2 squares of the enemy.
Attack 3:
- Make a melee basic attack, using Intent Laid Bare.

To-Hit

Attack 1 & 3: 8 lvl + 6 Cha + 3 prof + 3 enh + 2 exp + 2 CA = +24 vs AC 30 = 25% miss // 70% hit // 5% crit
Attack 2 (charge): 8 lvl + 6 Cha + 3 prof + 3 enh + 2 exp + 2 CA +1 charge= +25 vs AC 30 = 20% miss // 75% hit // 5% crit


Damage

Attack 1 & 3: 6 Cha + 5.5 (1d10) Greatspear + 3 enh + 3 feat + 4 item +5 frost vuln + 3 Siberys + 2 Gloves = 31.5 normal // 46.5 crit
Attack 2 (charge): 6 Cha + 11 (2d10) Greatspear + 3 enh + 3 feat + 4 item +5 frost vuln + 3 Siberys + 2 Gloves + 2 expertise + 7 (2d6) Horned Helm = 46 normal //  70.5 crit
=> 0,7 * 31,5 + 0,05 * 46,5 + 0,75 * 46 + 0,05 * 61 + 0,75 * (0,7 * 31,5 + 0,05 * 46,5) = 80.68 DPR = 0.53 KPR


Why Goliath? Prerequisite for Avalanche Reaver, without which you can't trigger Smite the Fallen. You can also choose Revenant for slightly better stats and Revenant cheese.
This costs power points, you can't sustain it! True, but at level 16 you have 7 power points, which means you alone will have killed 3.5 enemies by the time your PPs run out. Most combats should be over long before that happens.
This build dies to a slight breeze. This is, of course, a theoretical build. Unfortunately it's also very feat intensive, with really only Surprising Charge that can be swapped for something like Hafted Defense or Superior Will. You are a leader though, so you can keep yourself alive a little easier than the average Rogue.

The fun part of this build is that it's not a one-trick pony. Sure, it's geared towards dealing damage, but with only 2 powers that are part of the attack sequence, your third at-will can be anything you want (like Energizing Strike). For even more DPR, augment 2 Unsteadying Rebuke lets you make an out-of-turn attack against the enemy. This is not sustainable though because it costs a lot of power points.
You can also heal, and when you're bloodied, your choice of Mantle can turn a dangerous combat around. So all in all, a fun striker/leader.
I've updated the Sheet seeing that Kulkor Arms Master is nerfed.  I will update the spoilers later.
If you want to drop KAM from your build please go to the nerfed tab  and modify your build.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?

How does the new elementalist stack up now?
and is there an easy step by step guide to how to work all this out?