DPR King Candidates 3.0

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First time posting a build so let me know when I mess up.

Anyways, this is a Level 6 controller build that throws out insane damage without even rolling to hit thanks to the oversight of Storm Pillar.


I'd recommend making it very clear that you intend it as a nova build, not a KPR one.

That being said, a 132 damage nova at level 6 (with no APs or set up round!) is pretty awesome.

If you want a tiny bit more damage added, be Causticsoul instead and use Acid Surge as you move your Owlbear (and then you can probably get some items that would boost Acid Surge damage). This is pretty much the only thing I can think of that would add anything to the nova though.
2) Your resistances from the armor, PP and Dragonsoul. Armor gives you 15 thunder, PP gives you 20 lightning, and Dragonsoul gives 15 fire. You take the lowest one because your attack does all 3. You have 15 resist to those 3 elements, but you have 15 pierce fire from dragonsoul... how does that play out? Maybe since you pierce 15 fire, one of your resistances becomes 0, and thus you get 0 resistance for the entire attack.
Do you pierce any of the 30 resist-all from the belt?


After searching through the Rules forum, it seems like the consensus is that there's no definitive RAW answer, because resist/vulnerable "all" is not actually defined clearly anywhere. But, the general agreement is that it should not be treated like "resist/vulnerable fire and lightning and cold and..." because that breaks a number of game elements. So by the normal assumptions, piercing from Dragon Soul would not apply to the Resist All from the belt.
True...

But i still feel movement needs to be added somewhere in DPR calculations.  Expecting to start next to an enemy, and have it not move, is kinda...  expectant...


Yeah, I agree.

There's a lot of factors involved in determining how the mob will act though. Depends if they are melee or ranged, what other targets are around, what effects are on them (being in a 120 damage zone, for instance), special abilities/movement modes...

Example: if the enemy is melee with reach 2, then on my last DB of my turn, I don't slide them back adjacent. Instead, I slide them so they end up 3 squares away (no charging, no melee attacks). Then they are forced to move closer on their turn, and I only need one "secondary" DB to slide them back to the main zone when my next turn starts. Depending on how close the enemy has to get to me (i.e. their reach), it changes how much damage I can pull off with the forced movement.

It's really hard to give accurate, general assumptions. But I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of figuring out a way to incorporate movement. It's definitely an important part of combat.

(Sorry for the triple post, I'm responding to so many different things...and I still want to get back to Greyville at some point, but not tonight)
Yea, I just read the errata and found my DB combo now does not work as well. I was using a sorc/wiz hybrid, and cast cloud of daggers that at low level I would just walk through to recharge my breath and take my 1 point of damage, and at paragon take the lightning transport and the planestrider boots to tp in and out to get 3 DBs on my turn. It had a ~75DPR... but now, cloud of daggers only lets to take the damage once per turn, so that makes it a 1/my turn attack  I would need to find some off-turn effect that lets me either move or use the DB and kill to recharge. Opportunity breath comes to mind, but we can't really figure DPS on "if enemy provokes me to take OA on it".  And sweet, I'm currently playing a storm sorc, and plan on taking the PP to get the zone they missed.  (Lightning Fury)

I wouldn't depend on lighting fury to last much longer.  They've made the decisiion to nerf zones, they just a few missed it.  I expect them to be tagged 1/turn next update.  (though, if they survive next update, then you'll probably be good for a year).

Conflaguation breath probably will go too.  But enjoy the top spot while you have it 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Your quote is out of context.
When an attack score a critical hit against a target, the target takes the maximum damage possible from the attack. Don't make a damage roll. Instead, the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage. [etc.]


It is clearly stated that the damage comes from the attack, and the sentence you quoted can easily be a sort of ellipsis. ("Instead, the target takes damage [from the attack] as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage.")


So, cite something in evidence of 'For starters, the rules generally treat "the target takes damage" due to your attack identically to "you deal damage to the target."'


You actually didn't disagree with me. I said the rules treat taking damage due to your attack as being the same as you dealing damage. The crit entry says the target takes damage due to your attack...and you agree that this is the reason it's the same as you dealing damage. If the target "takes damage" as a consequence of your attack, then you dealt damage to the target.

Arena Battle Rhythm specifically causes damage to the target of your attack; the damage is coming from the fact that you attacked it. This is the same as the crit entry, where the "takes damage" comes from your attack, so therefore it's the same as "you deal damage."

Similar are the rules on Ongoing Damage (RC 224). Ongoing damage is still damage dealt by you; this can be deduced from the rules, but it's also explicitly confirmed by the errata to Pacifist Healer, that says "whenever you deal damage" would include "ongoing damage and other damaging effects" (so they changed PH to avoid that). But everything about OGD just says that the target "takes damage." The fact that you are the one causing the damage is enough to make it dealt by you.

You can also look for all the effects that lead to an enemy "taking extra damage" from something. For example, Crippling Crush: "When you immobilize or slow an enemy with a weapon attack using a hammer or mace, that enemy takes extra damage equal to your Constitution modifier." Since extra damage is always in addition to other damage, this is actually completely meaningless unless it's considered part of the damage you're dealing. If it's an independent bit of damage (the target just "takes" the damage, separate from everything else), then it actually cannot function, because it's extra damage. There are multiple effects that behave this way, I just did a Compendium search for "takes extra damage".
Where do I find the rules for how many creatures you can target with bursts? - e.g. the whirling barbarian power, whirling skirmish (hit a single target, then shift [DexBonus] squares and do damage to all creatures adjacent).

On a similar note, can an epic sohei assume he can get to position where he has two creatures adjacent?
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
So, the DPR Kings cheese tags came up in ThatWasTotallyNinja's 'legit DPR' thread, and at Borg's invitation, I decide to take a peek in here and throw in my .

Anyway, Borg mentioned that he picked the cheese tags based on what he thought might be considered cheesy by a normal DM and group, which is how the Charge, CA, Fey Beast Tamer, Frost, Radiant et al tags came to be. I, personally, think this is the wrong approach to them. Not only does this perpetuate the 'Frost/Radiant/Whatever is OP!' myth among optimization newbies, but it's also opposite to what Cheese is. Frost is with almost 100% certainty the most effective weapon for damage optimization for a normal character (particularly in the post-HotEC world, where Element Focus and Pale Tooth get you a better Weapon Focus AND an extra attack). This doesn't make it cheesy, it just makes it the optimal choice. No matter how balanced the system, there are always optimal choices, but those choices need not be cheesy. A Rending weapon used to create an infinite loop is cheesy. A Frost weapon isn't. I feel like this thread might be the best place in the whole board to have a discussion that should have been had a long time ago. That discussion is, 'where do we draw the line between optimized and cheesy'? And where do we draw the line between oft-masturbatory theorycrafting and practical assumptions?

For example, for the first question, these are tags I'd question:

-Is Frost cheesy? Battlecrazed is very competitive with it, for instance. For nova focused characters, multiple Tyrant's weaponry reign supreme with their insane damage boost.
-Is Radiant cheesy? Most of the Radiant Mafia pieces come together only by the work of multiple characters. Moreover, this kind of party optimization has a certain opportunity cost...and now speaking from a design standpoint and not a player standpoint, this is exactly the sort of thing 4e is about. Teamwork. A team of KAMmers is likely to pump out way more damage than a Radiant Mafia, so while the numbers look pretty impressive on paper, they come at the expense of much coordination, the use of many more pieces than usual (which implies that you should compare builds that use an equivalent amount of pieces to Radiant Mafia), and they only work on single targets if stacked to maximum effectiveness (since they use Encounter resources).
-Is Fey Beast Tamer cheesy? Sohei and Guardian are ten times as effective for damage, if not more. Why does it deserve a tag and not them? (Just to clear this up, I think Sohei and Guardian are not cheesy in the slightest. They push the envelope on what is acceptable power, but I think they fall within a reasonable margin, if only just. Themes like Yakuza can be equally or even more potent in some circumstances, Sohei and Guardian are just widely usable.)

There's probably more, but these come to mind first. Now, for the second question:

-Is the Charge tag based on too much theorycraft? I'm not sure - it does require party intervention to make work. Then again, there are very, very few parties that don't have reliable repositioning effects of all sorts.
-Is the CA tag based on too much theorycraft? In this case I have no doubts that the answer is 'yes, these tags need to be more lax'. 99% of the time, your party WILL grant you CA one way or another. To assume otherwise is kind of crazy, because even new parties will work for CA if an optimizer is on deck to help bring things together. If you assume you could take a super optimized, glass jawed, updated Stormwarden build out for a spin (totally random example here. Use whatever build you prefer if it doesn't suit you), then assuming your allies will work with you so you'll get CA all day erryday isn't far-fetched.

So yeah. That's pretty much all I wanted to say. These tags need a significant dose of of practical optimization sense in spite of dealing with theory op for the most part. I'll be watching the thread closely, so feel free to tear into my points and I'll see if I can put up a decent reply.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
My understanding of the "Charge", "CA", and "Solo" tags is for builds that can't actually guarentee their ability to charge/get CA/isolate a target, but instead assume sane teammates who will help them do so.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Right, my point is that grouping that with the 'cheese' tags creates a bad impression. It'd be better to split tags between 'descriptive' tags and 'cheese' tags.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
So, the DPR Kings cheese tags came up in ThatWasTotallyNinja's 'legit DPR' thread, and at Borg's invitation, I decide to take a peek in here and throw in my .

Anyway, Borg mentioned that he picked the cheese tags based on what he thought might be considered cheesy by a normal DM and group, which is how the Charge, CA, Fey Beast Tamer, Frost, Radiant et al tags came to be. I, personally, think this is the wrong approach to them. Not only does this perpetuate the 'Frost/Radiant/Whatever is OP!' myth among optimization newbies, but it's also opposite to what Cheese is. Frost is with almost 100% certainty the most effective weapon for damage optimization for a normal character (particularly in the post-HotEC world, where Element Focus and Pale Tooth get you a better Weapon Focus AND an extra attack). This doesn't make it cheesy, it just makes it the optimal choice. No matter how balanced the system, there are always optimal choices, but those choices need not be cheesy. A Rending weapon used to create an infinite loop is cheesy. A Frost weapon isn't. I feel like this thread might be the best place in the whole board to have a discussion that should have been had a long time ago. That discussion is, 'where do we draw the line between optimized and cheesy'? And where do we draw the line between oft-masturbatory theorycrafting and practical assumptions?

For example, for the first question, these are tags I'd question:

-Is Frost cheesy? Battlecrazed is very competitive with it, for instance. For nova focused characters, multiple Tyrant's weaponry reign supreme with their insane damage boost.
-Is Radiant cheesy? Most of the Radiant Mafia pieces come together only by the work of multiple characters. Moreover, this kind of party optimization has a certain opportunity cost...and now speaking from a design standpoint and not a player standpoint, this is exactly the sort of thing 4e is about. Teamwork. A team of KAMmers is likely to pump out way more damage than a Radiant Mafia, so while the numbers look pretty impressive on paper, they come at the expense of much coordination, the use of many more pieces than usual (which implies that you should compare builds that use an equivalent amount of pieces to Radiant Mafia), and they only work on single targets if stacked to maximum effectiveness (since they use Encounter resources).
-Is Fey Beast Tamer cheesy? Sohei and Guardian are ten times as effective for damage, if not more. Why does it deserve a tag and not them? (Just to clear this up, I think Sohei and Guardian are not cheesy in the slightest. They push the envelope on what is acceptable power, but I think they fall within a reasonable margin, if only just. Themes like Yakuza can be equally or even more potent in some circumstances, Sohei and Guardian are just widely usable.)

There's probably more, but these come to mind first. Now, for the second question:

-Is the Charge tag based on too much theorycraft? I'm not sure - it does require party intervention to make work. Then again, there are very, very few parties that don't have reliable repositioning effects of all sorts.
-Is the CA tag based on too much theorycraft? In this case I have no doubts that the answer is 'yes, these tags need to be more lax'. 99% of the time, your party WILL grant you CA one way or another. To assume otherwise is kind of crazy, because even new parties will work for CA if an optimizer is on deck to help bring things together. If you assume you could take a super optimized, glass jawed, updated Stormwarden build out for a spin (totally random example here. Use whatever build you prefer if it doesn't suit you), then assuming your allies will work with you so you'll get CA all day erryday isn't far-fetched.

So yeah. That's pretty much all I wanted to say. These tags need a significant dose of of practical optimization sense in spite of dealing with theory op for the most part. I'll be watching the thread closely, so feel free to tear into my points and I'll see if I can put up a decent reply.



I'm fine with seperating tags into "tags for typical optimization, ie. descriptive" and "tagged as cheesy(X)".
I completely agree that "assumming CA" is not cheesy but is "something a typical optimized build is going to do"  Frost-cheese, radiant mafia, twin strike are thigs that arent' cheesy.
Revenant with 6 minor actions, zone abuse are a few that are cheesy.
1/2 elf with versatile master, while widely accepted on the boards, probably would rub wrong at many tables.
I don't think it would be too difficult to rank the tags on a scale of cheesyness.  I can have my HTML page lookup that ranking and color it accordingly. 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Also if you feel there are other DPR related cheesy things that builds use feel free to add them and tag the builds that use it.  Feel free to add "Zon" for any build that abuses unnerfed zones.  When those zones get nerfed it'll be easy to find them and move them to the nerfed bin.

The reason the  Sohei and Guardian are not tags is because I haven't seen any builds that use those themes.  WHen we get some more encounter based builds I"m sure we'll see some great abuse of their awesomeness.  THen we'll either need to group the themes together, or add new tags for each super theme.  They will, of course, be simply descriptive tags.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I'd say Versatile Master is actually a pretty decent gauge of what is cheesy and what is not. It's funny, but it sets what I'd call the limit of practical optimization, and the start of Cheese Opping. Specifically, let's look at Twin Strike. When used on a class that uses the same stat for attacking naturally (Fighter, Warlord, Warden), I wouldn't call it cheesy. It's a power boost, but it tends to come at the price of a paragon feat, and those are kinda strong. See Pinning Challenge or Fight On, for instance. This, while strong, is what I'd call simply optimized play.

On the other hand, Twinfishing Avengers are abominations. They literally rely on you gimping yourself or starting at a high level to make things work, and discard your whole class except for one feature to achieve a result that I consider to be, quite frankly, BS. I have played Avengers that used STR instead of any normal Avenger secondary stat. The build that used that allocation burned a multiclass feat to get armor good enough to avoid getting chewed up, was a hybrid, and was feat-strapped as sin all the way through. That's a legitimate STR/WIS Avenger that can work. Twinfishers aren't. So I'd say that any Half-Elf build that involves sacking your on-class attack stat in favor of STR or any other stat that doesn't mesh with the class deserves a cheese tag (Something like 'VM/Off'?). A build that uses an on-stat swap, meanwhile, should just go into the terminology bin, being a simple case of synergy (Probably with a "VM/On", following the previous example).

I'll see if I can rack my brains for any other important terms. Maybe stuff that uses Immediate Actions as part of a nova should count? Some builds can do that, both cheesy and balanced alike.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Eh?  I played one in heroic, and it's no where near as bad as you think.  In heroic, it's a Nova play, not a DPR play.  But it still works.  AC is respectable due to UA+AoF, despite a poor dex.  Avenger powers are fine, Str attacks are fine.  I think you're highly overstating the heroic pain.

(Feat strapped?  Yeah, no doubt.  Ow.)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Eh?  I played one in heroic, and it's no where near as bad as you think.  In heroic, it's a Nova play, not a DPR play.  But it still works.  AC is respectable due to UA+AoF, despite a poor dex.  Avenger powers are fine, Str attacks are fine.  I think you're highly overstating the heroic pain.

(Feat strapped?  Yeah, no doubt.  Ow.)



Well...defenses are juuuuuuuuuuuust barely in the passable range in Heroic. As level ups accumulate though you pretty much have to buy into some sort of heavy armor or you get smoked, even if it's just chainmail. But yeah, my point is sorta that it totally twists the class to get something out of it. It's much less 'let's find a weird application of the class' (Lazylords) than it is 'lets abuse a feat that really shouldn't have been printed to hell and back and strap the most convenient class chassis we can to it'. One of these two is cheesy, the other one not so much. This doesn't mean it's broken - that's Lightning Fury and Rending loops. This is just a really degenerate use of multiple tricks.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Well...defenses are juuuuuuuuuuuust barely in the passable range in Heroic. As level ups accumulate though you pretty much have to buy into some sort of heavy armor or you get smoked, even if it's just chainmail.

Actually, assuming modules or something else of "standard" difficulty, by the time your AC starts to resemble the AC of an unattended object, your real DPR has gotten so silly it stops mattering so much.  Yes, you drop every encounter, but only after you've smoked 3 standards.  And by Epic, well, more monsters attack non-AC defenses.  (And you went Eternal Seeker anyway, for even more sillyness.)

IME, it's about "normal power" in heroic.  It's "silly glass canon" in Paragon and Epic.  (And still, even in high paragon and low epic playtests, I'll routinely not have the lowest AC at the table.  You can start crying now.)

Your point was "it's cheesy because it can't exist".  And that's false, it can.  And, as you point out, even at it's silliest extent, it's less DPR than a decent brutal-barage battlemind.  So ... I stand by my assertion that H-E Dilletant just isn't that cheesy.

Edit: standard-striker AC is, roughly, Scale, or Hide+Secondary-stat.  Avenger with UA is 2 higher than that.  So you can take a -2 penalty to your dex modifier (or a 4 penalty to the stat.  Or: ~12-14 Dex) and still have a perfectly normal striker AC after one feat.  By 8th level, you're now down 1 more AC, so you either spend another feat for IAoF, or you start getting used to getting hit a fair amount.  But that's still just one more AC down.

Now, by 14th level, you're down 2 AC.  And by 21st you're down at least 3 (actually 4, once you realize you were supposed to take an AC feat here.  One you took around 4th or 8th).  At that's about the point where I went "screw AC", and retrained UA into something that let me kill things faster.)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Well...defenses are juuuuuuuuuuuust barely in the passable range in Heroic. As level ups accumulate though you pretty much have to buy into some sort of heavy armor or you get smoked, even if it's just chainmail.

Actually, assuming modules or something else of "standard" difficulty, by the time your AC starts to resemble the AC of an unattended object, your real DPR has gotten so silly it stops mattering so much.  Yes, you drop every encounter, but only after you've smoked 3 standards.  And by Epic, well, more monsters attack non-AC defenses.  (And you went Eternal Seeker anyway, for even more sillyness.)

IME, it's about "normal power" in heroic.  It's "silly glass canon" in Paragon and Epic.  (And still, even in high paragon and low epic playtests, I'll routinely not have the lowest AC at the table.  You can start crying now.)

Your point was "it's cheesy because it can't exist".  And that's false, it can.  And, as you point out, even at it's silliest extent, it's less DPR than a decent brutal-barage battlemind.  So ... I stand by my assertion that H-E Dilletant just isn't that cheesy.

Edit: standard-striker AC is, roughly, Scale, or Hide+Secondary-stat.  Avenger with UA is 2 higher than that.  So you can take a -2 penalty to your dex modifier (or a 4 penalty to the stat.  Or: ~12-14 Dex) and still have a perfectly normal striker AC after one feat.  By 8th level, you're now down 1 more AC, so you either spend another feat for IAoF, or you start getting used to getting hit a fair amount.  But that's still just one more AC down.

Now, by 14th level, you're down 2 AC.  And by 21st you're down at least 3 (actually 4, once you realize you were supposed to take an AC feat here.  One you took around 4th or 8th).  At that's about the point where I went "screw AC", and retrained UA into something that let me kill things faster.)



Man, I must be fighting some seriously pimped out monsters, because the norm is that half my attacks that aren't single hits get canceled. Stuff just triggers that causes slides, pushes, prones, attack penalties and even stuns at times. The critfisher is a build that works nicely if you assume pure damage, but if it gets hit with say, a long range daze, it crumples. That's where it falls down for me, that it folds like a lawnchair to range.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
I did get completely slaughtered by a MyRE that kited the party.  But I don't think any other melee striker (outside of the Dex-primary set) would have done substantially better.  And so I invested in boots to let me run faster.  And never needed them again.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Just making sure my question on the previous page isn't lost, as I want to check the numbers on my Barb.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Where do I find the rules for how many creatures you can target with bursts? - e.g. the whirling barbarian power, whirling skirmish (hit a single target, then shift [DexBonus] squares and do damage to all creatures adjacent).

On a similar note, can an epic sohei assume he can get to position where he has two creatures adjacent?


I assume this is a burst 1.  You are guarnateed 1 target, and you can either leave your KPR like this
.7 KPR (burst 1)  or you can convert to single target KPR using a method that would probably not do it justice.
There has been quite a bit of opposition to saying "Because I can target 2 creatures this means my KPR is double the KPR dealt to 1 target."  As an example, if you can target 5 foes with your attack within a range of 10, the first target has 100% weight, the second target only wieghs 50% of the damage dealt to him, and third target has 25% weight...

Honestly just leave it as a burst attack.  If it hits allies then say that.  If you're trying  to incorperate in an encounter power that hits multiple foes after the first attack, then treat it as a normal attack.  Convert to single target at your own discression.  I like to keep single target seperate from multi-target attackers.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I know this isn't the place to discuss this, but, eh.  

We are fairly confident that D&D N is going to have AC and 6 saves.  While it does offer versatility for different classes to have spell-like attacks (rogue has a standard action maneuver "throw dirt in eyes" that forces the monster to make a dexterity check") but breaks from the consistency established in 4e: Attacker rolls d20+mods vs. Defender's DC.

I liked the consistency.  What about a system where instead of having either "NADs" or "Attacker sets DC" both the attacker and defender simply have a bonus.  The attacker then chooses to either take 10, thus setting the DC for the defender, or rolls and the defender then takes 10 thus setting the DC for your attack.  
This would enable for groups that liked the 4e style choose "defender always takes 10." and you then can easily just take a "+8" and convert it to 18 DC
Those that like the 3.5/2e "make a save" can continue to have the wizard set the DCs for his spells and the defender saves against them
Those that like to have a more skill vs. skill fight can have both attacker and defender do opposed rolls.

Thoughts
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
It's hard to say without seeing the full details.

But it seems like it would basicly be...

Sand in the eyes
BAB vs Dex
Hit: Dex mod damage.
Effect: The target is blind (Dex saves ends)

Dex can range from 10 - 18, meaning BAB should start at say... 5 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Ok - cheers Borg. I will treat it as a single creature that I can dance around and regenerates at full hitpoints whenever killed.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
It's hard to say without seeing the full details.

But it seems like it would basicly be...

Sand in the eyes
BAB vs Dex
Hit: Dex mod damage.
Effect: The target is blind (Dex saves ends)

Dex can range from 10 - 18, meaning BAB should start at say... 5 


I was thinking 
Dex vs. Dex
Hit: Target is blinded untill the end of your next turn

My dex total modifier would be +3(16 dex) + 1(thief) +2(CA for flanking) = +6
His Dex total  modifier would be +4(18 dex) + 3(skirmisher) = +7

I as the attacker can then choose to do 1d20+6 vs. 17    (50% chance of being blinded)
Or I could say "Monster gets blinded unless he makes a successful dexterity save DC 16. (40% chance of being blinded)

The fixing math is to instead of taking 10, to take 11
 
I as the attacker can then choose to do 1d20+6 vs. 18    (45% chance of being blinded)
Or I could say "Monster gets blinded unless he makes a successful dexterity save DC 17. (45% chance of being blinded)

Less elegelant, but still elegant. 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I don't like the Dex save naming convention

Physical save and Physical defense


  • Force attacks

  • pushes and slides

  • grapple (str vs. better of str or dex)

  • Some marking here


Fortitude save and Fortitude defense


  • Poison

  • suffocation

  • Slow condition


Reflex save and Reflex defense 


  • Prone

  • Dirt in the eyes

  • Fireball


Logic save and Logic defense


  • Illusion

  • Some Psionic attacks


Will save and Will defense


  • Some Psionic attacks

  • Some debuffing here

  • Bluffing and feining


Confidence save and Confidence defense


  • Lots of warlord attacks here 

  • Most Debuffing here

  • Marking here



I'll use this convention until D&D N comes out with something

That way we have a Dex modifier that is used in your reflex modifier. 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
So this took a while, since the nerf to zones. Even though he is a Dragonborn using the breath 3x per round. He is not a revenant, nor does he use the zone damage. He is a fighter|warlock/swordmage with Ninefold Master PP and Arcane Sword ED. If you want to put a cheese tag on him for using this path to make his dragonbreath an at-will, then do so. In short, he breathes 3x per round hurling friendly breath that marks all foes, pushes8, pushes8, slows, immobolizes, dazes, and gives all enemies in the burst a -8 to hit. I did not do any items other than the 2 really needed, so I do not know if his defenses will be sufficient in round1 before he gets to go.

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Kava, level 30
Dragonborn, Warlock/Fighter, Ninefold Master, Arcane Sword
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid) Option: Sorcerer-King Pact (Hybrid)
Eldritch Strike Option: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Hybrid Warlock Option: Hybrid Warlock Reflex
Draconic Resistance Option: Draconic Resistance Cold
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Fire
Dragonborn Racial Power Option: Dragon Breath
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Constitution
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Lightning
Adaptable Breath Option: Dragon Breath Cold
Theme: Yakuza
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 24, CON 26, DEX 14, INT 13, WIS 10, CHA 15
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 16, DEX 12, INT 11, WIS 8, CHA 11
 
 
AC: 27 Fort: 34 Ref: 28 Will: 27
HP: 184 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 54
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +27, Endurance +28, Intimidate +24, Streetwise +24
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +16, Bluff +17, Diplomacy +17, Dungeoneering +15, Heal +15, History +18, Insight +15, Nature +15, Perception +15, Religion +16, Stealth +17, Thievery +17
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Yakuza Utility: Ruthless Demonstration
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragon Breath
Warlock's Curse  Power: Warlock's Curse
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Strike
Ninefold Master Attack 11: Dragon Aura
Ninefold Master Utility 12: Countering Breath
Ninefold Master Attack 20: Dragon Tempest
Arcane Sword Utility 26: Mass Aegis
 
FEATS
Level 1: Draconic Spellcaster
Level 2: Daunting Breath
Level 4: Bolstering Breath
Level 6: Hurl Breath
Level 8: Adaptable Breath
Level 10: Dragonclaw Mark
Level 11: Admixture Breath
Level 12: Draconic Arrogance
Level 14: Dizzying Mace
Level 16: Frost Breath
Level 18: Thundering Breath
Level 20: Arcane Admixture
Level 21: Heart of the Blade
Level 22: Freezing Breath
Level 24: Deadly Immobilization
Level 26: Concussive Breath
Level 28: Superior Implement Training (Ashen rod)
Level 30: Dual Implement Spellcaster
 
ITEMS
Battle-Pact Ashen rod +6 x1
Arkhosian Scepter Ashen rod +6 x1
====== End ======


First, I have some warlock pact and the yakuza theme that do not do anything, too feat strapped to use those. I also found that dizzying mace will work better than the phychic damage on the curse and the -2 to hit for enemies. Please check my calculations for DPR. The first breath does not have CA yet because none of the targets are dazed yet.

Show

To Hit:
+6     power
+8     CON
+15   1/2 level
+6     enhancement
+3     Draconic Spellcaster
+1     Superior Implement
39     TOTAL

To Damage:
+8     CON
+6     Enhancement
+6     Enhancement DIS
+7     Marked
+7     Draconic Arrogance via Thundering breath
+7     Draconic Arrogance via Concussive Breath
+8     Deadly Immobilization via Frost Breath
+8     Deadly Immobilization via Freezing Breath
+3     Draconic Spellcaster
+4     Superior Implement
64     TOTAL

Damage first breath = (.85)(74.5)+(.05)(85) = 67.575
Damage 2,3 breath  = (.90)(74.5)+(.05)(85) = 71.3
Total in round           = 206.45 DPR


I think that you still miss on a 1, that is why it is .90 on the regular hit, is this correct?
Also from reading the boards here, people were using +str damage from draconic arrogance twice because there were 2 pushes from 2 different feats. I expanded on this and used the same logic for the deadly immobilization. There might be more tweaking that can be done with the last few feats. Maybe a WSG for the prone and more +str damage instead of DIS.

KPR = 264/206.45 = 1.2787... I think you have it backwards in your glossary.
KPR = 206.45/264 = 0.782      I know I can not kill a creature of 264HP in one round, so this number is the correct one.
If we convert area to single I get 2.43KPR

Please comment and help me flesh out with ideas for more dpr via feats, like maybe a bigger burst. I would also like item suggestions. Seeing that he will give his enemies -8 to hit, I could get by with lower defenses.

Lathaen
I have a question about the Inferno build by ThatWasTotallyNinja. I see how it all happens, and that they probably forgot this zone and the lightning one as 1/turn. My question is if the damage from the zones stack because they are all comming from the same source, namely conflagration breath. If you had acid mire, and stinking cloud and cloud of daggers, and the enemy started in the 1 square that all 3 of those zones are happening in, I could see the new rule about zone stacking dealing damage for each one of the zones. I know there is some rule about effects from the same game element not stacking, would that apply here?
I have a question about the Inferno build by ThatWasTotallyNinja. I see how it all happens, and that they probably forgot this zone and the lightning one as 1/turn. My question is if the damage from the zones stack because they are all comming from the same source, namely conflagration breath. If you had acid mire, and stinking cloud and cloud of daggers, and the enemy started in the 1 square that all 3 of those zones are happening in, I could see the new rule about zone stacking dealing damage for each one of the zones. I know there is some rule about effects from the same game element not stacking, would that apply here?


I believe it was bonuses from the same named game element not stacking.  
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I am trying to build the Unseelie Thief and I do not understand how he was able to obtain riposte strike as a thief. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
I am trying to build the Unseelie Thief and I do not understand how he was able to obtain riposte strike as a thief. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 


Human.
I am trying to build the Unseelie Thief and I do not understand how he was able to obtain riposte strike as a thief. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 


Human.



Whenever I choose to be human it doesn't open up any other at-wills but the Thief tricks in the builder.

I am trying to build the Unseelie Thief and I do not understand how he was able to obtain riposte strike as a thief. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 


Make a homebrew character, so you can access the different types of humans.  The original one gave you an extra at-will from your class, being rogue.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I am trying to build the Unseelie Thief and I do not understand how he was able to obtain riposte strike as a thief. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 


Make a homebrew character, so you can access the different types of humans.  The original one gave you an extra at-will from your class, being rogue.



Thank you.
So when you are calculating your KPR is the following accurate:

KPXR:
X Standard Actions
X Move Actions (no need to actually use these to move)
X Minor Actions
0 Action Points

Legal Actions:
All At-Will powers
All Encounter powers
NO Daily powers

And assuming that:
Say your KP2R uses 2 standard At-Will attacks and 4 minor action encounter attacks to get something like the following:
KP2R = 2.0
KP5R = 1.0
KP10R = 0.75

Is your submission KPR = 1.25?


So when you are calculating your KPR is the following accurate:

KPXR:
X Standard Actions
X Move Actions (no need to actually use these to move)
X Minor Actions
0 Action Points

Legal Actions:
All At-Will powers
All Encounter powers
NO Daily powers

And assuming that:
Say your KP2R uses 2 standard At-Will attacks and 4 minor action encounter attacks to get something like the following:
KP2R = 2.0
KP5R = 1.0
KP10R = 0.75

Is your submission KPR = 1.25?




Everything's fine until your last list. KPR stands for Kills Per Round. So KP2R is kills over 2 rounds, and KP10R is kills over 10 rounds. Unless you are slowly resurrecting the corpses of slain enemies, those number should be increasing.

Also, I believe that most builds that are up right now are just using at-wills, so make sure that you make special note of any enounter powers that you use.
So when you are calculating your KPR is the following accurate:

KPXR:
X Standard Actions
X Move Actions (no need to actually use these to move)
X Minor Actions
0 Action Points

Legal Actions:
All At-Will powers
All Encounter powers
NO Daily powers

And assuming that:
Say your KP2R uses 2 standard At-Will attacks and 4 minor action encounter attacks to get something like the following:
KP2R = 2.0
KP5R = 1.0
KP10R = 0.75

Is your submission KPR = 1.25?




X rounds, each round you have 1 standard, 1 move, 1 minor, 0 Action points
Correct on at-will, encounter, daily.
You can submit your candidate in many ways. Feel free to just state at-will and we'll assume you just do that for your first X rounds.  If you use encounter powers compute the expected damage (taking to-hit into account, if a secondary attack is contingent on the first multiply it out 60%*50%*secondary damage).  We havent' really established any rules for "what if my first attack doesn't prone them, does that mean my second attack won't get CA..."
Calculate as many KPXR values you like.  It'd be nice if you have your baseline KPR so we can extrapolate to 10 rounds, then average back to your mean KPR value.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
@Borg:

1) Is it reasonable to add my Inferno and 1000 Cuts builds to the list? (By the way: I kinda hate the names, but having a name makes it much easier to refer to.)

2) I noticed the other day that some builds, like the Genasi Blaster Wizard, seem to be using AoE damage but don't have AoE tags...is that deliberate, or just because you weren't using the AoE tag at the time, or am I missing something?

3) I'm gonna submit a vote for IRS instead of IRC, because I somehow read "compliant" as "complaint" like 30 times (as in, "I have a complaint about your total disregard for rarity rules"). Part of that was me being temporarily stupid, but I have to think that at least a couple other people will do the same.

4) What are the wealth guidelines we should be using? There's the guidelines for creating a level X character, but there's also the parcel system using a n-person party. I'm never really sure which numbers I'm supposed to use...and I think including the table as a link in the main post would be a good idea.
@Borg:

1) Is it reasonable to add my Inferno and 1000 Cuts builds to the list? (By the way: I kinda hate the names, but having a name makes it much easier to refer to.)

2) I noticed the other day that some builds, like the Genasi Blaster Wizard, seem to be using AoE damage but don't have AoE tags...is that deliberate, or just because you weren't using the AoE tag at the time, or am I missing something?

3) I'm gonna submit a vote for IRS instead of IRC, because I somehow read "compliant" as "complaint" like 30 times (as in, "I have a complaint about your total disregard for rarity rules"). Part of that was me being temporarily stupid, but I have to think that at least a couple other people will do the same.

4) What are the wealth guidelines we should be using? There's the guidelines for creating a level X character, but there's also the parcel system using a n-person party. I'm never really sure which numbers I'm supposed to use...and I think including the table as a link in the main post would be a good idea.


1) Add it in.
2) AoE tag is for those that converted their AoE to single target KPR.  Else I ommitted the tag and added in AoE as a special modifier.  Many of them need it.
3) I left that up as a pole and will close it soon.  If people don't vote against it, I will simply colapse into the most voted for option.
4) I will add such a table.  As we've run it you get the a 100% return on a (Level +1) item, a (Level) Item, and 2x (Level -1) items.  Spend as you wish.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
EDIT: Clarified a couple things.

Encounter nova candidate:

This is the level 30 version of a Swordmaster I put on the forum a few weeks ago. Rending Tempest adds a lot. The level 16 version can be found here.
Level 30 Build

Revenant (Half-Orc), Ranger|Fighter/Swordmaster/Legendary Sovereign
Arena Weapon: Zulaat
Sword of Kings: Twofold Flinch
Background: Cormyr (General)
Theme: Wilder

ABILITY SCORES
STR 18 -> 26
CON 12 -> 14
DEX 13 -> 20 
INT 10 -> 12
WIS 13 -> 16
CHA 10 -> 14

SKILLS
Insight

FEATS
1: Hybrid Talent (Arena Training via swapping Fighter Weapon Talent)
2: Disciple of Divine Wrath
4: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
6: Death's Quickening
8: Mighty Crusader Expertise
10: Avenging Resolution
11: Enhanced Psychic Surge
12: Arena Battle Rhythm
14: Reckless Attacker
16: Headsman's Chop
18: Superior Will
20: Past Life Flashbacks
21: Rending Tempest
22: Critical Targeting
24: Ghostly Vitality
26: Vengeful Declaration
28: Enmity Shared
30: Ferocious Critical

POWERS
At-Will: Twin Strike
Encounter: Opportunist's Rend, Twofold Flinch (Sword of Kings), Death Rend
Utility: Insightful Riposte

ITEMS
Harmony Blade Zulaat +6, Ring of Free Time (2), Gauntlets of Destruction, Quickhit Braces (epic), Life Charm +5, Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic), Assault Boots, Ioun Stone of Might, Symbol of Victory +5 (2), Veteran's Elderhide Armor +6, Dice of Auspicious Fortune, Stone of Earth, Stone of Spirit

Nova Breakdown

Use Past Life Flashbacks when rolling initiative. I assume the enemy starts adjacent (maybe because they moved up to hit me...). Also, start the battle at nonpositive HP.

First round:
free action: Oath of Enmity
AP: Psychic Surge
6 minors (rev. cheese + one ring of free time): Twofold Flinch
Standard: Death Rend

Second round:
Standard: Twin Strike
6 minors: Twofold Flinch

Each crit-generated attack (there will be many, via Harmony Blade) is used on Opportunist's Rend, which recharges on every crit due to Swordmaster. Also, each round is almost guaranteed to trigger Reckless Attacker, adding one MBA (sadly, can't be another OR).

Twofold Flinch can be used constantly because the build hits on anything but a 1, and Sword of Kings makes it never expend until I miss. If I use this nova every encounter, that's 120 attacks with TF per day...but with only a 1/400 chance of missing. Also, I have a Stone of Earth just in case.

Have an AP every encounter due to 2 Symbols of Victory.

Attacks

ATTACK BONUS
all: 8 str, 15 level, 3 feat, 1 veteran's armor, 2 CA
Psychic Surge: 5 enh, 2 past life flashbacks, 3 insightful riposte = 39 vs. reflex
pre-crit Twofold Flinch: 6 enh, 2 prof, 2 past life flashbacks = 39 vs. reflex
everything else: 6 enh, 2 prof, 4 ferocious critical = 41

For Psychic Surge, only miss on a 1. Use Dice of Auspicious Fortune and Stone of Spirit to guarantee that it always hits. Everything else only misses on a double-1.

Because of this, I'll just assume that every single attack is a hit, because this simplifies some of the calculations by a lot.

CRIT
chance to crit = 1-.75^2 =  .4375

Since each crit generates 2 additional attacks, that means for each initial attack, I am expected to actually make 1/(1-2*.4375) = 8 attacks. Therefore, instead of making 14 attacks per turn, I actually expect to make 120 (the MBA from Reckless Attacker contributes 8 of those). Psychic Surge is not included in this because it doesn't add anywhere; I will completely ignore it in my calculations.

Again, I assume every attack hits (with 120 attacks, you are expected to have 119.7 hits).

Damage

I create damage on Twofold Flinch using the trick outlined in this build. It's not particularly necessary, it just makes the calculations much easier.

1[W] = 20/3 (2d4 + gauntlets of destruction + avenging resolution)

DAMAGE BONUS
8 str, 6 enh, 3 feat, 5 item, 5 headsman's chop, 4 ferocious critical, 2 critical targeting
quickhit braces: 3d6 = 3*(21/5) = 6.3 per hit on average
=39.3

This is not 100% correct (not all attacks get to add str mod, HC, FC, CT, or QB). However, it's true for the vast majority of attacks, and I'm going to ignore all base damage (like the 1[W] from Opportunist's Rend), so in the end I am underestimating by a lot.

From this source, we get 39.3*120*2 =  9432 damage to the nova.

RENDING TEMPEST
This is the real damage. Rending Tempest adds 1[W] per hit in a turn (except the MBA). It stacks with itself. Therefore, each round it contributes (118*119/2) [W] damage. Multiplied over 2 rounds = 93613 damage to nova.

However, some of the attacks are crits. Specifically, 43.75% of them are. So if we maximize 43.75% of the [W]'s, that adds another 8191 damage to the nova.

I made a lot of tiny assumptions here and there...but I also ignored a lot of base damage from the attacks, including all non-RT crit damage, so I'm pretty sure I ended up underestimating damage, possibly by as much as 1500. But 1500 damage on this particular nova is practically a rounding error.

Damage over 2 rounds = 111236 (6 digits! )



Now, here's a problem. I am submitting this to the nova category. However, if I were to submit it as a DPR build, even taking a DPR of zero in rounds 3-10, I would still end up with a Mean KPR of 112.36, making this the new Level 30 king (...by a lot). I think we all agree that this is not good.

My idea: how about if after dealing X amount of damage, you have to somehow engage a new target. Every time you engage a new target, they are assumed to start N squares away (this includes on round 1). Overkill within one attack is counted toward DPR (so if you do 2*X damage in a single attack, that can be counted), but you cannot attack a dead enemy (so if you expect to deal X damage on each hit of a Twin Strike, your second attack must be at a different target).

This way it's not all that much harder to calculate (you already need to calculate the expected damage of each attack; just figure out when the total exceeds X), but it adds a lot more realism. Have to move every once in a while, have to retarget every once in a while. Would hurt most of my builds (which is good, because most of my builds are broken as hell).

I'm thinking X = 2 or 4 kills worth of damage (to model an elite or solo). N = 4 or 5 squares. Old builds that weren't designed to conform to this get italicized or something to show that they were made under old rules (is a good idea anyway; a number of builds require a lot of setup, which is no longer totally valid).
Encounter nova candidate:

This is the level 30 version of a Swordmaster I put on the forum a few weeks ago. Rending Tempest adds a lot. The level 16 version can be found here.
Level 30 Build

Revenant (Half-Orc), Ranger|Fighter/Swordmaster/Legendary Sovereign
Arena Weapon: Zulaat
Sword of Kings: Twofold Flinch
Background: Cormyr (General)
Theme: Wilder

ABILITY SCORES
STR 18 -> 26
CON 12 -> 14
DEX 13 -> 20 
INT 10 -> 12
WIS 13 -> 16
CHA 10 -> 14

SKILLS
Insight

FEATS
1: Hybrid Talent (Arena Training via swapping Fighter Weapon Talent)
2: Disciple of Divine Wrath
4: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
6: Death's Quickening
8: Mighty Crusader Expertise
10: Avenging Resolution
11: Enhanced Psychic Surge
12: Arena Battle Rhythm
14: Reckless Attacker
16: Headsman's Chop
18: Superior Will
20: Past Life Flashbacks
21: Rending Tempest
22: Critical Targeting
24: Ghostly Vitality
26: Vengeful Declaration
28: Enmity Shared
30: Ferocious Critical

POWERS
At-Will: Twin Strike
Encounter: Opportunist's Rend, Twofold Flinch (Sword of Kings), Death Rend
Utility: Insightful Riposte

ITEMS
Harmony Blade Zulaat +6, Ring of Free Time (2), Gauntlets of Destruction, Quickhit Braces (epic), Life Charm +5, Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic), Assault Boots, Ioun Stone of Might, Symbol of Victory +5 (2), Veteran's Elderhide Armor +6, Dice of Auspicious Fortune, Stone of Earth, Stone of Spirit

Nova Breakdown

Use Past Life Flashbacks when rolling initiative. I assume the enemy starts adjacent (maybe because they moved up to hit me...). Also, start the battle at nonpositive HP.

First round:
free action: Oath of Enmity
AP: Psychic Surge
6 minors (rev. cheese + one ring of free time): Twofold Flinch
Standard: Death Rend

Second round:
Standard: Twin Strike
6 minors: Twofold Flinch

Each crit (there will be many) is used on Opportunist's Rend, which recharges on every crit due to Swordmaster. Also, each round is almost guaranteed to trigger Reckless Attacker, adding another MBA (sadly, can't be another OR).

Twofold Flinch can be used constantly because the build hits on anything but a 1, and Sword of Kings makes it never expend until I miss. If I use this nova every encounter, that's 120 uses of TF per day...but with only a 1/400 chance of missing. Also, I have a Stone of Earth just in case.

Have an AP every encounter due to 2 Symbols of Victory.

Attacks

ATTACK BONUS
all: 8 str, 15 level, 3 feat, 1 veteran's armor, 2 CA
Psychic Surge: 5 enh, 2 past life flashbacks, 3 insightful riposte = 39 vs. reflex
pre-crit Twofold Flinch: 6 enh, 2 prof, 2 past life flashbacks = 39 vs. reflex
everything else: 6 enh, 2 prof, 4 ferocious critical = 41

For Psychic Surge, only miss on a 1. Use Dice of Auspicious Fortune and Stone of Spirit to guarantee that it always hits. Everything else only misses on a double-1.

Because of this, I'll just assume that every single attack is a hit, because this simplifies some of the calculations by a lot.

CRIT
chance to crit = 1-.75^2 =  .4375

Since each crit generates 2 additional attacks, that means for each initial attack, I am expected to actually make 1/(1-2*.4375) = 8 attacks. Therefore, instead of making 14 attacks per turn, I actually expect to make 120 (the MBA from Reckless Attacker contributes 8 of those). Psychic Surge is not included in this because it doesn't add anywhere; I will completely ignore it in my calculations.

Again, I assume every attack hits (at 120 attacks, you are expected to have 119.7 hits).

Damage

I create damage on Twofold Flinch using the trick outlined in this build. It's not particularly necessary, it just makes the calculations much easier.

1[W] = 20/3 (2d4 + gauntlets of destruction + avenging resolution)

DAMAGE BONUS
8 str, 6 enh, 3 feat, 5 item, 5 headsman's chop, 4 ferocious critical, 2 critical targeting
quickhit braces: 3d6 = 3*(21/5) = 6.3 per hit on average
=39.3

This is not 100% correct (not all attacks get to add str mod, HC, FC, or QB). However, it's true for the vast majority of attacks, and I'm going to ignore all base damage (like the 1[W] from Opportunist's Rend), so in the end I am underestimating by a lot.

From this source, we get 39.3*120*2 =  9432 damage to the nova.

RENDING TEMPEST
This is the real damage. Rending Tempest adds 1[W] per hit in a turn (except the MBA). It stacks with itself. Therefore, each round it contributes (118*119/2) [W] damage. Multiplied over 2 rounds = 93613 damage to nova.

However, some of the attacks are crits. Specifically, 43.75% of them are. So if we maximize 43.75% of the [W]'s, that adds another 8191 damage to the nova.

I made a lot of tiny assumptions here and there...but I also ignored a lot of base damage from the attacks, including all non-RT crit damage, so I'm pretty sure I ended up underestimating damage, possibly by as much as 1500. But 1500 damage on this particular nova is practically a rounding error.

Damage over 2 rounds = 111236 (6 digits! )



Now, here's a problem. I am submitting this to the nova category. However, if I were to submit it as a DPR build, even taking a DPR of zero in rounds 3-10, I would still end up with a Mean KPR of 112.36, making this the new Level 30 king (...by a lot). I think we all agree that this is not good.

My idea: how about if after dealing X amount of damage, you have to somehow engage a new target. Every time you engage a new target, they are assumed to start N squares away (this includes on round 1). Overkill within one attack is counted toward DPR (so if you do 2*X damage in a single attack, that can be counted), but you cannot attack a dead enemy (so if you expect to deal X damage on each hit of a Twin Strike, your second attack must be at a different target).

This way it's not all that much harder to calculate (you already need to calculate the expected damage of each attack; just figure out when the total exceeds X), but it adds a lot more realism. Have to move every once in a while, have to retarget every once in a while. Would hurt most of my builds (which is good, because most of my builds are broken as hell).

I'm thinking X = 2 or 4 kills worth of damage (to model an elite or solo). N = 4 or 5 squares. Old builds that weren't designed to conform to this get italicized or something to show that they were made under old rules (is a good idea anyway; a number of builds require a lot of setup, which is no longer totally valid).



Oddly enough, I'd say calling for a 'minimum distance' isn't quite right, not the way you're proposing it at least. In a real combat, most of the time you'll have two or more enemies in your grill if you're melee, and probably three to four targets in range if you're ranged. I think it's fair to assume you'll have at least one other enemy in melee range, but afterwards things become doubtful. How about this?

A) If melee, you have two enemies in range at start, adjacent.
B) If ranged, you have four enemies in range, two adjacent to each other, the other two separate from the first two and also nonadjacent with each other.
C) If necessary after dispatching Enemy 2/4, either assume an average of 5 squares distance OR assume a target is within 1d10/1d12 range (where 1 is adjacency). I believe the latter is truer to how a combat goes, but the former is more reliable.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Encounter nova candidate:

This is the level 30 version of a Swordmaster I put on the forum a few weeks ago. Rending Tempest adds a lot. The level 16 version can be found here.
Level 30 Build

Revenant (Half-Orc), Ranger|Fighter/Swordmaster/Legendary Sovereign
Arena Weapon: Zulaat
Sword of Kings: Twofold Flinch
Background: Cormyr (General)
Theme: Wilder

ABILITY SCORES
STR 18 -> 26
CON 12 -> 14
DEX 13 -> 20 
INT 10 -> 12
WIS 13 -> 16
CHA 10 -> 14

SKILLS
Insight

FEATS
1: Hybrid Talent (Arena Training via swapping Fighter Weapon Talent)
2: Disciple of Divine Wrath
4: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
6: Death's Quickening
8: Mighty Crusader Expertise
10: Avenging Resolution
11: Enhanced Psychic Surge
12: Arena Battle Rhythm
14: Reckless Attacker
16: Headsman's Chop
18: Superior Will
20: Past Life Flashbacks
21: Rending Tempest
22: Critical Targeting
24: Ghostly Vitality
26: Vengeful Declaration
28: Enmity Shared
30: Ferocious Critical

POWERS
At-Will: Twin Strike
Encounter: Opportunist's Rend, Twofold Flinch (Sword of Kings), Death Rend
Utility: Insightful Riposte

ITEMS
Harmony Blade Zulaat +6, Ring of Free Time (2), Gauntlets of Destruction, Quickhit Braces (epic), Life Charm +5, Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic), Assault Boots, Ioun Stone of Might, Symbol of Victory +5 (2), Veteran's Elderhide Armor +6, Dice of Auspicious Fortune, Stone of Earth, Stone of Spirit

Nova Breakdown

Use Past Life Flashbacks when rolling initiative. I assume the enemy starts adjacent (maybe because they moved up to hit me...). Also, start the battle at nonpositive HP.

First round:
free action: Oath of Enmity
AP: Psychic Surge
6 minors (rev. cheese + one ring of free time): Twofold Flinch
Standard: Death Rend

Second round:
Standard: Twin Strike
6 minors: Twofold Flinch

Each crit (there will be many) is used on Opportunist's Rend, which recharges on every crit due to Swordmaster. Also, each round is almost guaranteed to trigger Reckless Attacker, adding another MBA (sadly, can't be another OR).

Twofold Flinch can be used constantly because the build hits on anything but a 1, and Sword of Kings makes it never expend until I miss. If I use this nova every encounter, that's 120 uses of TF per day...but with only a 1/400 chance of missing. Also, I have a Stone of Earth just in case.

Have an AP every encounter due to 2 Symbols of Victory.

Attacks

ATTACK BONUS
all: 8 str, 15 level, 3 feat, 1 veteran's armor, 2 CA
Psychic Surge: 5 enh, 2 past life flashbacks, 3 insightful riposte = 39 vs. reflex
pre-crit Twofold Flinch: 6 enh, 2 prof, 2 past life flashbacks = 39 vs. reflex
everything else: 6 enh, 2 prof, 4 ferocious critical = 41

For Psychic Surge, only miss on a 1. Use Dice of Auspicious Fortune and Stone of Spirit to guarantee that it always hits. Everything else only misses on a double-1.

Because of this, I'll just assume that every single attack is a hit, because this simplifies some of the calculations by a lot.

CRIT
chance to crit = 1-.75^2 =  .4375

Since each crit generates 2 additional attacks, that means for each initial attack, I am expected to actually make 1/(1-2*.4375) = 8 attacks. Therefore, instead of making 14 attacks per turn, I actually expect to make 120 (the MBA from Reckless Attacker contributes 8 of those). Psychic Surge is not included in this because it doesn't add anywhere; I will completely ignore it in my calculations.

Again, I assume every attack hits (at 120 attacks, you are expected to have 119.7 hits).

Damage

I create damage on Twofold Flinch using the trick outlined in this build. It's not particularly necessary, it just makes the calculations much easier.

1[W] = 20/3 (2d4 + gauntlets of destruction + avenging resolution)

DAMAGE BONUS
8 str, 6 enh, 3 feat, 5 item, 5 headsman's chop, 4 ferocious critical, 2 critical targeting
quickhit braces: 3d6 = 3*(21/5) = 6.3 per hit on average
=39.3

This is not 100% correct (not all attacks get to add str mod, HC, FC, or QB). However, it's true for the vast majority of attacks, and I'm going to ignore all base damage (like the 1[W] from Opportunist's Rend), so in the end I am underestimating by a lot.

From this source, we get 39.3*120*2 =  9432 damage to the nova.

RENDING TEMPEST
This is the real damage. Rending Tempest adds 1[W] per hit in a turn (except the MBA). It stacks with itself. Therefore, each round it contributes (118*119/2) [W] damage. Multiplied over 2 rounds = 93613 damage to nova.

However, some of the attacks are crits. Specifically, 43.75% of them are. So if we maximize 43.75% of the [W]'s, that adds another 8191 damage to the nova.

I made a lot of tiny assumptions here and there...but I also ignored a lot of base damage from the attacks, including all non-RT crit damage, so I'm pretty sure I ended up underestimating damage, possibly by as much as 1500. But 1500 damage on this particular nova is practically a rounding error.

Damage over 2 rounds = 111236 (6 digits! )



Now, here's a problem. I am submitting this to the nova category. However, if I were to submit it as a DPR build, even taking a DPR of zero in rounds 3-10, I would still end up with a Mean KPR of 112.36, making this the new Level 30 king (...by a lot). I think we all agree that this is not good.

My idea: how about if after dealing X amount of damage, you have to somehow engage a new target. Every time you engage a new target, they are assumed to start N squares away (this includes on round 1). Overkill within one attack is counted toward DPR (so if you do 2*X damage in a single attack, that can be counted), but you cannot attack a dead enemy (so if you expect to deal X damage on each hit of a Twin Strike, your second attack must be at a different target).

This way it's not all that much harder to calculate (you already need to calculate the expected damage of each attack; just figure out when the total exceeds X), but it adds a lot more realism. Have to move every once in a while, have to retarget every once in a while. Would hurt most of my builds (which is good, because most of my builds are broken as hell).

I'm thinking X = 2 or 4 kills worth of damage (to model an elite or solo). N = 4 or 5 squares. Old builds that weren't designed to conform to this get italicized or something to show that they were made under old rules (is a good idea anyway; a number of builds require a lot of setup, which is no longer totally valid).

Few questions.

1) How are crits generating extra attacks? In this build you have a harmony blade, and not a rending weapon.

2)

Reckless Attacker


Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, fighter
Benefit: The first time you score a critical hit with a fighter attack power on your turn, you can make a melee basic attack as a free action. If you do so, you take a –2 penalty to AC until the end of your next turn.

ONLY on first crit.

3) Mighty Crusader Expertise, where is it, I can not find in the compendium.

4) Isn't there some rule about getting only 1 free attack per turn limit?