## DPR King Candidates 3.0

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## Pages

Alraune
Joined Feb 2012
1055 Posts
Umm, what is KPR? I mean I know it stands for Kills per Round but how do you calculate it?

They use some weird average. The formula ends up being, iirc,

Total damage in round 1-2/(8*Level + 24) = KP2R
Total damage in round 1-5/(8*Level + 24) = KP5R
Total damage in round 1-510/(8*Level + 24) = KP10R

Mean KPR = (KP2R/2 + KP5R/5 + KP10R/10)/3

Mean KPR is basically meaningless, but it's your "high score", so... enjoy? If you're actually going to get any value out of the charts, you need to go to the document, look at the first two numbers (2 and 5) and then take a hard look at the builds themselves to figure out to what extent the numbers actually work. The 10 is usually pointless because any build that has it very high is using some sort of trick that you probably can't in a real game.
GenericOctopus
Joined Jun 2010
21 Posts
I get the way you're parcing Twin Strike by RAW, just curious how it'd need to be written/formatted to get the obvious RAI (two attacks against 1 target or two attacks split between 2 targets).
Fardiz
Joined Dec 2010
2760 Posts
Target: One or two creatures.
Special: If you only targetted one creature with this power, make the secondary attack against that target.

Secondary Attack:

Target: The creature that you just attacked:
Hit: 1[W]
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Zathris
Joined Nov 2009
5752 Posts
Target: One creature
...............
Effect: Repeat the attack against the same creature or a different creature.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Fardiz
Joined Dec 2010
2760 Posts
Gives you infinite attacks.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Jerico_Mason
Joined Feb 2013
146 Posts
Just a note, The character does not meet the requirements for Nimble Blade.
Zathris
Joined Nov 2009
5752 Posts
Gives you infinite attacks.

There is nothing to indicate that the effect line would be repeated.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Jerico_Mason
Joined Feb 2013
146 Posts
How about this for AoE and Monks:  If you hit multiple targets you can take fractional KPR for your primary target, but all secondary targets you can only count them if you've killed them, all excess damage to secondary targets go to the next set of secondary targets

If you were using encounter powers you are already doing a round by round breakdown
If you are doing simple at-will calculations you have to seperate it into primary KPR (fractional) and secondary KPNR = n attacks * floor(KPNR)

I can't say that I entirely approve of that idea, but I understand why it's necessary. It's unfortunate that, at this point, one of the best things I could do for KPR over five rounds is actually lower DPR (by lowering Flurry damage) and increase the single target DPR. As it is, I'm wasting almost an entire KP5R in Flurry overflow.
And without further ado, the build! Also, I totally forgot that this build is no longer a Revenant. That makes 50% of its title obsolete... How about "Flurry of Cheese"?
Build
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 12
Half-Elf, Monk, Unseen Hand
Half-Elf Power Selection Option: Dilettante
Associate: Trained Young Owlbear
Theme: Fey Beast Tamer

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 16, DEX 11, INT 11, WIS 22, CHA 9

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 15, CON 13, DEX 10, INT 10, WIS 17, CHA 8

AC: 18 Fort: 21 Ref: 17 Will: 25
HP: 83 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 20

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +17, Insight +19, Perception +17, Stealth +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +6, Athletics +10, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +12, Endurance +9, History +6, Intimidate +5, Nature +12, Religion +6, Streetwise +5, Thievery +6

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Monk Feature: Stone Fist Flurry of Blows
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike
Unseen Hand Attack 11: Unseen Hunter's Pounce
Unseen Hand Utility 12: Unseen Scrutiny

FEATS
Level 1: Ki Focus Expertise
Level 2: Disciple of Destruction (Retrained to Lasting Frost at 11)
Level 4: Implement Focus (Ki Focus)
Level 11: Versatile Master

ITEMS
Monk unarmed strike
Blurred Strike Ki Focus +3 x1
Ki Dagger +1 x1
Ki Hand crossbow +1 x1
Hand Crossbow x3
Battle Harness Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2 x1
Lancing Gloves x1
Iron Armbands x1
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (level 12) x1 (attached to Ki Dagger)
====== End ======

The Schtick
Twin Strike:
+23 to hit
+6 Level
+3 Proficiency (Dagger)
+3 Enhancement (Ki Focus)
+2 Expertise
+2 CA (Owlbear)

+25.5 damage
+2.5 (Dagger)
+3 (Enhancement)
+2 (Focus)
+5 (Lasting Frost)
+2 (Lancing Gloves)
+2 (Owlbear)
+2 (Bracers)
+3 (Dragonshard)
+2 (Whetstone)

+64 Damage (First Flurry)

+13 on target of attack
+7 (Base Flurry)
+2 (Ki Dagger)
+2 (Ki Hand Crossbow)
+2 (Lancing Gloves)
+7 (Base Flurry)
+2 (Ki Dagger)
+2 (Ki Hand Crossbow)

+2 (Lancing Gloves)
+4 (Not targeted by triggering attack)
+17 on enemy within 5 (Starblade Flurry)
+17 on enemy within 10 (Unseen Hand)

+48 Damage (Second Flurry)

+13.5 damage (Jade Sea Snake: Free action attack)

+13 to hit
+11.5 (Bite)
+2 (Owlbear)

First attack DPR: .9(25.5) = 22.95
Second attack DPR: .9(23.5) = 22.95
First Flurry: (1-(.1*.1))*64 = 63.36
Second Flurry: (1-(.1+.1))*48 = 38.4
Crit DPR: (15*.05)*2 = 1.5
Sea Snake: (13.5*.45 + 4.5*.05) = 6.3

Total DPR: 165.06

Damage per Target:
First target: 73.77
(45.9+12.87+7.2+1.5+6.3)
Second, Third, and Fourth Targets: 30.43
(16.83+13.6)

Total KP5R: 6.0738

KP5R per Target:

First Target: 3.0738
((73.77*5)/120)
Second, Third, and Fourth Targets: 1.2679
((30.43*5)/120)

This one second on the list at 12th level tier. Half-Elf Monk/Unseen Hand.  Dex is not high enough modified for Nimble Blade.
Jerico_Mason
Joined Feb 2013
146 Posts
Gives you infinite attacks.

There is nothing to indicate that the effect line would be repeated.

If you repeat "The Attack" against the target, the effect line would always follow up the Attack Line, etc etc.
borg285
Joined Jan 2008
3020 Posts

level 12/16 Stefan Lion-Blooded (Githzerai Werewolf Avenger/PMC Ranger)
level 1 Blackquard|Exe\Rog

I'll now go to my HTML tab and extract the auto-generated post content and copy it over to my first few posts.

If I seem AFK for too long feel free to ping me using my alias but adding one @ gmail.com

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
arunson
Joined Aug 2007
36 Posts
EDIT: Minor corrections. Also, recent errata means this build uses 3 rare items (Ring of Free Time, Dice of Auspicious Fortune, and Stone of Spirit). 3 rares in Epic is considered acceptable, but none of them are really necessary anyway. Switch Many-Fingered Gloves+Ring of Free Time for Breaching Gauntlets, if desired (helps with Resist All; not many good options...)

I've seen a bunch of dragonbreath spamming builds lately, so after a while I started to look into it in full detail. Combined it with some ideas from the Blender and some tactics, and it got pretty fun...

Tags: Rev., noLFR, AoE (optionally)

Level 30 Build

Inferno
Revenant (Dragonborn), Sorcerer|Shaman, Ninefold Master, Archspell (Doom of Chaos)
Sorcerous Power (Dex), Companion Spirit (World Speaker Spirit)
Ninefold Master resistance: Lightning
Dragon Breath: Fire, Constitution
Theme: Harper Agent
Background: Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 26, Dex 26, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 16, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 8.

AC: 41 Fort: 38 Reflex: 38 Will: 38

Trained skill: Religion

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent (Dragon Soul Fire)
Level 2: Dragonborn Soul
Level 4: Enlarged Dragon Breath
Level 6: Mark of Storm
Level 8: Draconic Spellcasting
Level 10: Death's Quickening
Level 11: Arcane Admixture (Dragon Breath, Lightning)
Level 12: Cyclone Spirit
Level 14: Arcane Reach
Level 16: Burning Breath
Level 18: Ancient Soul
Level 21: Thundering Breath
Level 21: Ghostly Vitality
Level 22: Superior Will
Level 24: Conflagration Breath
Level 26: Disciplined Talent
Level 28: Sorcerous Flux

POWERS
Encounter: Dragon Breath
Utility: Deliverance of Faith, Maiden's Waking
Daily: Doom of Chaos

ITEMS
Arkhosian Scepter +6, Ring of Free Time (epic tier), Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic tier), Many-Fingered Gloves (paragon tier), Ring of the Radiant Storm (paragon tier), Life Charm +5, Eager Hero's Tattoo (epic tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Coif of Focus (epic tier), Ring of the Crimson Sun (paragon tier), Zaarani's Solitaire (heroic tier), Salve of Power (heroic tier), Ankhmon's Bracers (paragon tier), Totem of the Harrier's Claws +3, Harper Pin (heroic tier), Wyrmsilk Armor of Resistance +6 (thunder), Dice of Auspicious Fortune (paragon tier), Stone of Flame (paragon tier)

Tactics

Before the encounter, make sure you are at nonpositive HP and have your spirit companion conjured. Also, spend 4 healing surges right after ending an extended rest, so that each battle starts with at least 27 THP from the Eager Hero's Tattoo.

First round: Use Doom of Chaos (choose fire), then spam Dragon Breath (you will have 6 minors: 5 from revenant cheese + 1 from the Ring of Free Time).
Subsequent rounds: Use Dragon Breath 6 times (5 minors + 1 standard).

Dragon Breath can use a square within 2 as its origin due to Arcane Reach. Also, it pushes Con mod squares when it hits due to Thundering Breath (though I'm only going to push 4), then slides 4 (Mark of Storm+Rushing Cleats+Cyclone Spirit+Controlling Advantage), and is a blast 5 due to Enlarged Dragon Breath. When it hits me, I recharge it via Ancient Soul, so I make sure to be in the blast. Diagram:

O x x x x x
x|E x x x x|
F|x S x x x|
x|F x x x x|
F|x x x x x|
x|F x x x x

O = origin square for blast, E = enemy, S = self, F = forced movement square (path that the push/slide follows)

Each DB creates a zone (Conflagration Breath), so by using the forced movement in this way, the enemy enters the zone 4 times per hit (and takes the zone damage, which deals 20 damage due to Doom of Chaos giving vulnerable 10 fire). Also, the zones stack. Which means that, on the 6th DB of turn 2, there are 12 overlapping zones and the enemy takes damage from each one, i.e. 240 damage each time it enters, for 960 damage per hit.

CA is gained for Controlling Advantage via the Totem of the Harrier's Claws and Burning Breath. I'm not sure where the SC needs to be to trigger Cyclone Spirit (should it be adjacent to the enemy's initial square, or the square that they start sliding from?), but wherever it's ruled that the SC needs to be, that's where I put it.

Also, the first time a crit is scored (after the first round), I use Zaarani's Solitaire to do another slide and get a bunch more damage.

With Sorcerous Flux, I make sure that I always get hit by DB (I can hit myself on a 2). If a 1 is rolled against both targets, I use an AP to DB again as a free action (this is the only thing APs are saved for). I can also recover DB 2/day with the Ring of the Radiant Storm and the Salve of Power...but the APs should almost always be enough.

Dice of Auspicious Fortune are used to help ensure a miss with Doom of Chaos (anything other than a 20 will miss).

If the SC is killed, then I need to use a minor action to bring it back (the damage is completely resisted, so it doesn't matter). That hurts DPR...but it also probably means that the enemy has not actually harmed the party at all, so it works out to practically a stun. As such, the enemy is unlikely to choose this.

The enemy could move around, but the standard assumption for DPR calcs is that they do not. Also, the blast has pretty good range, so shifting is unlikely to get them far enough, and I'd just use the first DB to slide them back into position in the main zone. Worst case scenario, I throw rarity rules to the wind and buy 5 Rings of Personal Gravity (they're cheap) and use one each encounter to lock the enemy down.

Surviving

Taking all these hits will hurt. It doesn't hurt that much...each attack is 3d6+29, and I have resist 30 and insubstantial, so expected damage is 4.5. But when it's 6 attacks per turn, that adds up quickly.

First thing is the aforementioned Eager Hero's Tattoo. That soaks up all the damage from turn 1. Then there's more THP from the Ring of the Crimson Sun, giving me a good 6 more rounds of life...which is not enough. So at the end of that last round, trigger Ankhmon's Bracers on the second-to-last DB (reroll with Stone of Flame if necessary; must hit the enemy). This gives healing, which means we start at 0 when gaining the HP. Then on the last DB, I go back to negative (not too much damage though; I still have 15 resist from the armor + PP + Dragon Soul). I am dazed.

On the next round, save vs. the daze via Superior Will (+5 from Coif of Focus, +1 from background). If it fails, reroll with a +2 via Harper Pin. If that fails, use Maiden's Walking to ignore the daze this turn, then save again at the beginning of the next one.

That should be enough HP to get through 10 rounds. If not, there is also Deliverance of Faith to get a surge worth of THP (1/enc), and also Healing Spirit (1/enc) if I run into big trouble.

Can never fail a death saving throw due to the Life Charm.

Calculations

Actual calculations are all done in the DPR Kings spreadsheet (go to View -> Hidden Sheets -> Inferno; please re-hide afterward). I won't bother writing it out here to explain, but I tried to make at least the attack and damage bonuses as transparent as possible.

Calculations for the AoE were not done in depth at all because I don't think it's as interesting, and figuring out how Sorcerous Flux improves everything is complicated, and it's just generally a lot of work. So I assumed that the damage dealt to the secondary targets was 1/4 of my base damage (because they don't have the fire vulnerability, and they aren't necessarily positioned well to make the push damage them). I think if I did all the calculations it'd end up a little higher than that, but not by enough to make me care.

Simplifications for the single target damage:
1) I assume the very first DB was a hit, to cause OGD and create CA.
2) I assume the enemy always has OGD on its turn (this only fails if every single DB missed on the last turn, and the enemy successfully saved against ODB last time).
3) The damage added by the Ring of the Radiant Storm was approximated by simulating the dice rolls a million times.

There are a number of other assumptions/simplifications made, but those are all generally contained in the Tactics section already.

Single-target KPR: 14.61 (post-MS: 18.30)
AoE KPR: 19.28 (post-MS: 24.15)

I can't really see anything controversial in this build; the meat of the damage is from the fact that Conflagration Breath creates a damaging zone that was unaffected by the zone nerf, and overlapping zones each deal damage as normal, and DB can be recharged perpetually via Ancient Soul...all of that is pretty clearly established. The rest is just fluff for optimizing around that basic tactic.

Does this awesome build work anymore since they have made it where zone damage no longer stacks?
ThatWasTotallyNinja
Joined Jan 2011
1187 Posts
Does this awesome build work anymore since they have made it where zone damage no longer stacks?

I'm assuming you mean when they changed most zones to be 1/turn? And yes, it was created after that, because their strategy of fixing each zone individually meant they missed a couple, including Conflagration Breath.

(I really don't recommend actually playing that build, by the way)
pinkisthenewred
Joined Jan 2013
1854 Posts
Don't listen to TWTN trolling you. This build is totally approved for practical play. It will leave your group with happy smiles on them faces and you'll be bestest superfriends forever.
Zathris
Joined Nov 2009
5752 Posts
Don't listen to TWTN trolling you. This build is totally approved for practical play. It will leave your group with happy smiles on them faces and you'll be bestest superfriends forever.

Sarcasm doesn't work well, please don't misinform people just for a joke unless they actually are worth trolling.

Arunson: It's one of a handful of powers/effects that never got limited to 1/turn, the only reason it didn't get changed is because WotC really just doesn't care about editing Epic 4e, but it would be safe to assume that nearly every table is going to houserule it.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
arunson
Joined Aug 2007
36 Posts
EDIT: Minor corrections. Also, recent errata means this build uses 3 rare items (Ring of Free Time, Dice of Auspicious Fortune, and Stone of Spirit). 3 rares in Epic is considered acceptable, but none of them are really necessary anyway. Switch Many-Fingered Gloves+Ring of Free Time for Breaching Gauntlets, if desired (helps with Resist All; not many good options...)

I've seen a bunch of dragonbreath spamming builds lately, so after a while I started to look into it in full detail. Combined it with some ideas from the Blender and some tactics, and it got pretty fun...

Tags: Rev., noLFR, AoE (optionally)

Level 30 Build

Inferno
Revenant (Dragonborn), Sorcerer|Shaman, Ninefold Master, Archspell (Doom of Chaos)
Sorcerous Power (Dex), Companion Spirit (World Speaker Spirit)
Ninefold Master resistance: Lightning
Dragon Breath: Fire, Constitution
Theme: Harper Agent
Background: Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 26, Dex 26, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 16, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 8.

AC: 41 Fort: 38 Reflex: 38 Will: 38

Trained skill: Religion

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent (Dragon Soul Fire)
Level 2: Dragonborn Soul
Level 4: Enlarged Dragon Breath
Level 6: Mark of Storm
Level 8: Draconic Spellcasting
Level 10: Death's Quickening
Level 11: Arcane Admixture (Dragon Breath, Lightning)
Level 12: Cyclone Spirit
Level 14: Arcane Reach
Level 16: Burning Breath
Level 18: Ancient Soul
Level 21: Thundering Breath
Level 21: Ghostly Vitality
Level 22: Superior Will
Level 24: Conflagration Breath
Level 26: Disciplined Talent
Level 28: Sorcerous Flux

POWERS
Encounter: Dragon Breath
Utility: Deliverance of Faith, Maiden's Waking
Daily: Doom of Chaos

ITEMS
Arkhosian Scepter +6, Ring of Free Time (epic tier), Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic tier), Many-Fingered Gloves (paragon tier), Ring of the Radiant Storm (paragon tier), Life Charm +5, Eager Hero's Tattoo (epic tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Coif of Focus (epic tier), Ring of the Crimson Sun (paragon tier), Zaarani's Solitaire (heroic tier), Salve of Power (heroic tier), Ankhmon's Bracers (paragon tier), Totem of the Harrier's Claws +3, Harper Pin (heroic tier), Wyrmsilk Armor of Resistance +6 (thunder), Dice of Auspicious Fortune (paragon tier), Stone of Flame (paragon tier)

Tactics

Before the encounter, make sure you are at nonpositive HP and have your spirit companion conjured. Also, spend 4 healing surges right after ending an extended rest, so that each battle starts with at least 27 THP from the Eager Hero's Tattoo.

First round: Use Doom of Chaos (choose fire), then spam Dragon Breath (you will have 6 minors: 5 from revenant cheese + 1 from the Ring of Free Time).
Subsequent rounds: Use Dragon Breath 6 times (5 minors + 1 standard).

Dragon Breath can use a square within 2 as its origin due to Arcane Reach. Also, it pushes Con mod squares when it hits due to Thundering Breath (though I'm only going to push 4), then slides 4 (Mark of Storm+Rushing Cleats+Cyclone Spirit+Controlling Advantage), and is a blast 5 due to Enlarged Dragon Breath. When it hits me, I recharge it via Ancient Soul, so I make sure to be in the blast. Diagram:

O x x x x x
x|E x x x x|
F|x S x x x|
x|F x x x x|
F|x x x x x|
x|F x x x x

O = origin square for blast, E = enemy, S = self, F = forced movement square (path that the push/slide follows)

Each DB creates a zone (Conflagration Breath), so by using the forced movement in this way, the enemy enters the zone 4 times per hit (and takes the zone damage, which deals 20 damage due to Doom of Chaos giving vulnerable 10 fire). Also, the zones stack. Which means that, on the 6th DB of turn 2, there are 12 overlapping zones and the enemy takes damage from each one, i.e. 240 damage each time it enters, for 960 damage per hit.

CA is gained for Controlling Advantage via the Totem of the Harrier's Claws and Burning Breath. I'm not sure where the SC needs to be to trigger Cyclone Spirit (should it be adjacent to the enemy's initial square, or the square that they start sliding from?), but wherever it's ruled that the SC needs to be, that's where I put it.

Also, the first time a crit is scored (after the first round), I use Zaarani's Solitaire to do another slide and get a bunch more damage.

With Sorcerous Flux, I make sure that I always get hit by DB (I can hit myself on a 2). If a 1 is rolled against both targets, I use an AP to DB again as a free action (this is the only thing APs are saved for). I can also recover DB 2/day with the Ring of the Radiant Storm and the Salve of Power...but the APs should almost always be enough.

Dice of Auspicious Fortune are used to help ensure a miss with Doom of Chaos (anything other than a 20 will miss).

If the SC is killed, then I need to use a minor action to bring it back (the damage is completely resisted, so it doesn't matter). That hurts DPR...but it also probably means that the enemy has not actually harmed the party at all, so it works out to practically a stun. As such, the enemy is unlikely to choose this.

The enemy could move around, but the standard assumption for DPR calcs is that they do not. Also, the blast has pretty good range, so shifting is unlikely to get them far enough, and I'd just use the first DB to slide them back into position in the main zone. Worst case scenario, I throw rarity rules to the wind and buy 5 Rings of Personal Gravity (they're cheap) and use one each encounter to lock the enemy down.

Surviving

Taking all these hits will hurt. It doesn't hurt that much...each attack is 3d6+29, and I have resist 30 and insubstantial, so expected damage is 4.5. But when it's 6 attacks per turn, that adds up quickly.

First thing is the aforementioned Eager Hero's Tattoo. That soaks up all the damage from turn 1. Then there's more THP from the Ring of the Crimson Sun, giving me a good 6 more rounds of life...which is not enough. So at the end of that last round, trigger Ankhmon's Bracers on the second-to-last DB (reroll with Stone of Flame if necessary; must hit the enemy). This gives healing, which means we start at 0 when gaining the HP. Then on the last DB, I go back to negative (not too much damage though; I still have 15 resist from the armor + PP + Dragon Soul). I am dazed.

On the next round, save vs. the daze via Superior Will (+5 from Coif of Focus, +1 from background). If it fails, reroll with a +2 via Harper Pin. If that fails, use Maiden's Walking to ignore the daze this turn, then save again at the beginning of the next one.

That should be enough HP to get through 10 rounds. If not, there is also Deliverance of Faith to get a surge worth of THP (1/enc), and also Healing Spirit (1/enc) if I run into big trouble.

Can never fail a death saving throw due to the Life Charm.

Calculations

Actual calculations are all done in the DPR Kings spreadsheet (go to View -> Hidden Sheets -> Inferno; please re-hide afterward). I won't bother writing it out here to explain, but I tried to make at least the attack and damage bonuses as transparent as possible.

Calculations for the AoE were not done in depth at all because I don't think it's as interesting, and figuring out how Sorcerous Flux improves everything is complicated, and it's just generally a lot of work. So I assumed that the damage dealt to the secondary targets was 1/4 of my base damage (because they don't have the fire vulnerability, and they aren't necessarily positioned well to make the push damage them). I think if I did all the calculations it'd end up a little higher than that, but not by enough to make me care.

Simplifications for the single target damage:
1) I assume the very first DB was a hit, to cause OGD and create CA.
2) I assume the enemy always has OGD on its turn (this only fails if every single DB missed on the last turn, and the enemy successfully saved against ODB last time).
3) The damage added by the Ring of the Radiant Storm was approximated by simulating the dice rolls a million times.

There are a number of other assumptions/simplifications made, but those are all generally contained in the Tactics section already.

Single-target KPR: 14.61 (post-MS: 18.30)
AoE KPR: 19.28 (post-MS: 24.15)

I can't really see anything controversial in this build; the meat of the damage is from the fact that Conflagration Breath creates a damaging zone that was unaffected by the zone nerf, and overlapping zones each deal damage as normal, and DB can be recharged perpetually via Ancient Soul...all of that is pretty clearly established. The rest is just fluff for optimizing around that basic tactic.

Aren't the zones damages that overlap now also overlapped if they are from the same source...meaning...if one zone is doing 50 damage from dragon breath and then another zone is made using the same character and the same attack (dragon breath), and it does 50..the resulting damage if I stay in the zone is still only 50 isn't it?
Alcestis
Joined Oct 2009
8509 Posts
No, not only is that not a rule, that has never been a rule. Perhaps you are confusing it with the old rule about auras?
borg285
Joined Jan 2008
3020 Posts

Well guys, the new website URL format doesn't accept post numbers, so most of our links are effectively broken.

This sucks hard.  I have a hard time believing that WotC would be able to allow the conversion to a website that didn't preserve most people's links.

If I have time I'll go through the tedious process of finding the post number and converting it to the globally unique comment number.  It would be super awesome if WotC put in a convertion utility that could take the legacy URLs and map them to their cooresponding comment ID.

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
borg285
Joined Jan 2008
3020 Posts

D&D Next preliminary KPR King Candidates if you're into that sort of thing.

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
awaken_D_M_golem
Joined Dec 2006
2935 Posts

borg285 wrote:

Well guys, the new website URL format doesn't accept post numbers, so most of our links are effectively broken.

This sucks hard.  I have a hard time believing that WotC would be able to allow the conversion to a website that didn't preserve most people's links.

If I have time I'll go through the tedious process of finding the post number and converting it to the globally unique comment number.  It would be super awesome if WotC put in a convertion utility that could take the legacy URLs and map them to their cooresponding comment ID.

2nd-ing.

Threads seem to be mostly converted now, but yeah not posts.  Searching through an entire Guide thread with 300+ posts is ...

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

borg285
Joined Jan 2008
3020 Posts

I've gone through every legal build in the spreadsheet and tracked down the current post link and updated the spreadsheet and first posts accordingly.

This was a serious pain because when WotC updated this forum they didn't do a torough enough job of converting post links over.  Now any link I made using the post number on the post, is broken.  Most of the time it gets me roughly on the right page but not always.

the "Stefan Lion-Blooded (Githzerai Werewolf Avenger/PMC Ranger)" thread was closed to all access for some reason and I don't have permission to view it. I think this is universal.  I had to find a google cache for this one.

There were a few builds that I couldn't find.  I'll post the build name and author here

 Unseelie Thief ? onecrazymojo
 Bugbear Rogue|Warden ? IronSky Blackquard|Exe\Rog ? Bohrdumb
 The Owlbugbear ? onecrazymojo Bugbear Riposte Rogue ? onecrazymojo Mul, Slayer ? ZombieJ Longtooth Shifter Avenger ? tl Human, Blackguard ? Zombiej Dragonborn Warlock ? tl

 Half-Elf Monk ? Illeist
 Sheilded Punisher ? Cecil90670

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
erachima
Joined Sep 2013
1040 Posts

Yeah, they royally screwed up my account for some reason and deleted most of my threads. Unfortunately that's not a thread I archived either... ugh. I've still got the spreadsheet though.

borg285
Joined Jan 2008
3020 Posts

Rise from the dead, my creation. Rise!!  Rise!!

I am bringing this thread back up to see if there are any new builds that should be recorded for posterity sake.

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Project_Vile
Joined Dec 2004
20 Posts

I was attempting to build a level 1 King, but couldn't manage to get it above .86 mean kpr, is it even worth posting?  It is kinda unique considering it's a ranged warlock.  None of those on the board yet.

svendj
Joined Apr 2010
2508 Posts

Project_Vile wrote:

I was attempting to build a level 1 King, but couldn't manage to get it above .86 mean kpr, is it even worth posting?  It is kinda unique considering it's a ranged warlock.  None of those on the board yet.

TBH, it's not hard to build an L1 King because monster HP is still low. The trouble starts around level 4-5 when HP starts scaling faster than most classes can compensate. Basically, it's easy to build a DPR King at low heroic, low paragon, mid paragon and low epic (when PP and ED features kick in).

GPuzzle
Joined Oct 2013
184 Posts

Uhm, if I hit an enemy with Eldritch Strike while I have Walk Amongst the Fey, can I teleport him upwards? If so, I might have just found a Knight that deals 7d10+modifiers damage every attack he makes, 14d10+modifiers to someone once per round, and 21d10+modifiers if they attack him or his allies.

Joined Oct 2010
12357 Posts

That sounds somewhat unlikely.

With Walk Among the Fey, I'd rule you could only teleport them to a location you could have slid them to, so you wouldn't be able to teleport them upwards.

I'd also note that if you DO have a way to teleport them into the air, they would get a save to avoid it if it would cause them damage as a result.

Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Zathris
Joined Nov 2009
5752 Posts

Location is one of the potential "limitations of the slide" that is restricted by WATF, which includes both required destinations (slide enemy into a square adjacent to you) and ability to enter squares (you can't slide an enemy vertically, you can't slide an enemy into blocking terrain, etc.)

I also find a slide->teleport of 12 squares highly unbelievable since there's no teleportaiton keyword to abuse, and if you're stacking both +slide and +teleport distance shame on you,

This thread is, was, and has always been full of terrible impractical builds that aren't even "the most damage you can do" because it pointedly ignores the fact that "Infinite Damage" comes online at level 11.

"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
svendj
Joined Apr 2010
2508 Posts

The 'teleport upwards for damage' trick has been discussed a couple of times in the context of using the Psion's Dimensional Scramble power with Dreamwalker's level 16 feature. The trick is to place your dream form next to a foe, then cast Dimensional Scramble on a point 11 squares in the air (assuming you're standing on the ground). If you hit the enemy next to your dream form, you can teleport it outside the burst which is 13 squares up, so the enemy takes an additional 6d10 falling damage.

This trick was found to be pretty bad due to several factors:

- If the enemy can fly, it doesn't work. Acrobatics training presents a similar damage reduction.

- If the enemy makes its saving throw against teleportation (55% chance), you've just made an RBA with your standard action. Hooray.

- Even when it works, the damage is still pretty low. 33 additional damage just isn't a lot at level 16 and up. Although you could double the damage by flying 11 squares into the air, then casting DS 22 squares from the ground. That's assuming you're not limited by a ceiling though, which your DM can easily mitigate when you do this trick too often.

Project_Vile
Joined Dec 2004
20 Posts

svendj wrote:

Project_Vile wrote:

I was attempting to build a level 1 King, but couldn't manage to get it above .86 mean kpr, is it even worth posting?  It is kinda unique considering it's a ranged warlock.  None of those on the board yet.

TBH, it's not hard to build an L1 King because monster HP is still low. The trouble starts around level 4-5 when HP starts scaling faster than most classes can compensate. Basically, it's easy to build a DPR King at low heroic, low paragon, mid paragon and low epic (when PP and ED features kick in).

I agree, it's not difficult to build and is exceedingly simple to play (what level 1 isn't?) but my point is that it kinda blows up the myth that Warlocks can't be heavy hitters at low levels.  .86kpr is pretty noteworthy for a Red Rated power in the Warlock's Handbook on a class that many consider to be suboptimal (non-hybrid).  I did have to sacrifice defenses to get there, though, which is why I've never considered posting it before.

svendj
Joined Apr 2010
2508 Posts

Project_Vile wrote:

svendj wrote:

Project_Vile wrote:

I was attempting to build a level 1 King, but couldn't manage to get it above .86 mean kpr, is it even worth posting?  It is kinda unique considering it's a ranged warlock.  None of those on the board yet.

TBH, it's not hard to build an L1 King because monster HP is still low. The trouble starts around level 4-5 when HP starts scaling faster than most classes can compensate. Basically, it's easy to build a DPR King at low heroic, low paragon, mid paragon and low epic (when PP and ED features kick in).

I agree, it's not difficult to build and is exceedingly simple to play (what level 1 isn't?) but my point is that it kinda blows up the myth that Warlocks can't be heavy hitters at low levels.  .86kpr is pretty noteworthy for a Red Rated power in the Warlock's Handbook on a class that many consider to be suboptimal (non-hybrid).  I did have to sacrifice defenses to get there, though, which is why I've never considered posting it before.

I wasn't aware of such a myth going around (at least not at lower levels).

Project_Vile
Joined Dec 2004
20 Posts

Well nevermind then.    It's probably just self projection.

Zathris
Joined Nov 2009
5752 Posts

Warlocks don't have very good striker encounter powers. That's pretty much entirely what the "warlocks aren't great strikers" comes from, our tradition of looking at "Encounter Nova" when building and judging characters falls a little flat with Warlocks. They have great at-wills including 1 optimizable double-tap, 1 potential double-tap, the best MBA in the game, and the alternative RBA really isn't bad (I get to add +stat *how* many times?). They have zone abuse dailies, which are nerfed but still let you and your party blender an enemy. Two pacts have +striker boons with a third giving +extra type damage.

"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
borg285
Joined Jan 2008
3020 Posts

See my sig to see what are good KPR values. If you think that he'd be a respectable striker with a unique twist, by all means post him.

Regarding the teleport issue, AFAIK there are rules for saving against teleporting into the air.  If your DPR needs to have a high ceiling to function and a non-flying enemy then label it as such. It's KPR probably will be marked as such. Your choice. I have, at times, taken the liberty to throw out obviously and completely broken interpretations/exploits but in most cases that any sane DM would slap you silly for I've allowed.  Mostly this was for the sake of exploring the space to see what was possible.  I've kept the rules rather loose intentionally and it's worked out.

So that's it? A level 1 warlock getting .86 KPR (way to go BTW).  You don't need to be a king to post your build.

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Mommy_was_an_Orc
Joined Apr 2002
6296 Posts

I'm not sure where Hyperpoxia ends up at 24/30, but it is up there. Double Attack rolls, typically +60+ mods without party support, defenses in the low-50s to low-60s, double rolls for saves with +5 to them, 3 surges worth of temp hp for free per combat, etc...

borg285
Joined Jan 2008
3020 Posts

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

I'm not sure where Hyperpoxia ends up at 24/30, but it is up there. Double Attack rolls, typically +60+ mods without party support, defenses in the low-50s to low-60s, double rolls for saves with +5 to them, 3 surges worth of temp hp for free per combat, etc...

Are you willing to go through with doing a DPR/KPR calculation so we can compare apples to apples to see just how much of a Uber-damage juggernaut you really are?

Some might have a problem with the fact that the high damage output is only for 6 rounds.

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
GPuzzle
Joined Oct 2013
184 Posts

Sorry, what's the formula for DPR? Never really bothered with it, and it seems pretty important now.

But yeah, How to Teleport with a Hammer, Half-Elf Knight/Kulkor Arms Master/Ceaseless Guardian (this build assumes that you can teleport enemies upward, they don't fly, that you can charge forever and that you have an extremely large ceiling):

Level 30:

Show

Dilletante: Eldritch Strike, Constitution

Attributes:

Strength: 14 (+2)

Constitution: 30 (+10)

Dexteritry: 12 (+1)

Intelligence: 10 (+0)

Wisdom: 12 (+1)

Charisma: 26 (+8)

Feats:

L1-Melee Training (Constitution) (retrained to Versatile Master at level 11)

L2-Kulkor Battlearms Student

L4-Weapon Proficiency: Craghammer

L6-Bludgeon Expertise

L8-Bardic Dilletante

L10-Improved Defenses

L11-Hindering Shield

L12-White Lotus Riposte

L14-White Lotus Master Riposte

L16-Superior Will

L18-Weapon Focus: Hammers

L20-Hammer Shock

L21-Overwhelming Impact

L24-Mark of Storm

L26-Quickened Spellcasting

L28-Armor Especialisation: Plate

L30-Weapon Focus: Hammers

Defenses:

AC: 48

Fort: 46

Refl: 41

Will: 43

Stances:

Poised Assault

Battle Wrath

Defend the Line

Hammer Hands

Items:

Bracers of Mental Might

+6 Staggering Craghammer

+6 Dwarven Godplate Armor

Rushing Cleats

Horned Helm (Epic)

Eberron Dragonshard of Lightning (Epic)

Average DPR, if they don't shift/attack a friend/attack us, considered to be charging: +36 vs AC, if it hits, it deals 2d10, reroll all 2s on those+5d10 from the fall+3d6+14, make another attack without the 3d6 extra damage for a total of 4d10, rerolling all 2s on those d10s+10d10 from the fall+3d6+28, and if they shift/attack an ally/attack us, increase that to 6d10, reroll all 2s on those d10s+15d10 from the fall+3d6+42 damage every round. WARNING: THIS IS GOING TO BE EDITED AS SOON AS I AM ABLE TO CALCULATE THE DPR.

Mommy_was_an_Orc
Joined Apr 2002
6296 Posts

borg285 wrote:

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

I'm not sure where Hyperpoxia ends up at 24/30, but it is up there. Double Attack rolls, typically +60+ mods without party support, defenses in the low-50s to low-60s, double rolls for saves with +5 to them, 3 surges worth of temp hp for free per combat, etc...

Are you willing to go through with doing a DPR/KPR calculation so we can compare apples to apples to see just how much of a Uber-damage juggernaut you really are?

Some might have a problem with the fact that the high damage output is only for 6 rounds.

No. I'd have to figure out how you do that calculation and too many parts of it are highly conditional because the build is tactical. Do you swing at the target with a 72 AC or do you provoke from it, unless you can teleport on round 1. And if you swing at it, it will swing back at you. He should easily generate 7 attacks against his target of choice unless that target decides to teleport. That should be over 500 points of damage on round 1 while using a move action to actually move several squares.

In any case, I think the damage output only lasting for 6 rounds is far outweighted by the fact that he's playable from 1-30, fully RAW/RAI, and the only reason he's worrying about round 6 is that he might run out of super-DPR juice as opposed to actually getting taken down because he's the focus fire target or worse, turned against the party. Dominate this guy and he's got a 96% chance of breaking free before he goes on his turn.

Zathris
Joined Nov 2009
5752 Posts

"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Mommy_was_an_Orc
Joined Apr 2002
6296 Posts

Zathris wrote:

I wouldn't go that far...

erachima
Joined Sep 2013
1040 Posts