DPR King Candidates 3.0

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You list by how many of each type of monster you can kill by round 5, and specifically include the fact that they are different targets so overkill has to be accounted for.

As nice as it would be to count for overkill, it's just not feasible to calculate when every monster has variances in HP.

I could, hypotheticly, make a build that had exactly 8*level+24 damage * 2 (twin strike).  So my number would be 2, but in reality, i could 1-shot a monster 1/2 the time.  Since some monsters will have more HP, some less, sometimes i would roll high, sometime low...

But if you come along and make a build that does 9*level+24 damage * 2 (twin strike),  you would be 1-shotting monsters more often, doing more damage, but your number would still be 2.



So unless we want to get into heavy statistical annalisis (like, count every monsters HP and make a bell curve), we can't accuratly acount for overkill.   And even then we wouldn't really have a better comparison.



I will vote against the 2 round nova including prep round.  I've always though that wasn't really feasible; it's much more useful to see what you can nova without any preperation round.

While not feasible for "real' games to spend a turn casting buffs/debuffs.  It's kinda fun to see what you can pull off.

Though I think the vote was for "how much damage can you do in 2 rounds".

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I have a rather big announcement: I've made a google doc for community viewing and editing pleasure
DPR King Spreadsheet 
I will be having 6 main sheets(level 1, level 6...).  Check it out and tell me if you like it.

How to submit a build

  1. Post a reply to this thread or the old DPR king candidates 2.0 thread.  I'll add your row in the spreadsheet.  I'll convert your DPR into KPR/RPK and double it for Kills per 2 rounds, Kills per 3 rounds... I'll use a link to your post(or use link you provide) so when someone clicks on your candidate in the sblock list it will go to your post/thread.  If you want to outline a round by round breakdown of how much expected damage you deal (using encounter powers, power points...) I will have the Kills per 1 round respect that and so forth.

  2. Make a new worksheet in my spreadsheet, named after your alias(google or WotC) and you can go to town with that sheet with all of your builds.  Create a dynamic link to your Kills per X round calculation.  In the Link column you would paste the address for your sheet (when you navigate to a sheet within a google spreadsheet the URL changes so that anyone that clicks on that URL goes directly to your sheet).  You can then do a level by level breakdown of your build if you so wish.  People can comment on how you calculate your DPR / KPR


Some of the benefits of using google docs


  • I can dynamically create the HTML I would use in each of my first 5 posts(sblock list of all the candidates).  I will then only need to copy/paste those cells into my WotC post and voila, up to date sblock of all the current candidates with proper links, cheese usage, KP5R

  • You can sort the candidates by KP1R to see who's the fastest at "Hey you, explode!", or mean KPR to see who's the best at sustained.  

  • No more "number of rounds" bias either favoring Nova builds or favoring at-willers.  Sort by what matters to you.  Nova builds can sit in same bin as as everybody else.

  • Chat in google docs.  Click on another user(see side pane in spreadsheet) to see what cell they're looking at.  This is an alternative to IRC but this is DPR focused.

  • Use spreadsheets to calculate expected damage and let others see your formulas and offer fixes

  • Backward compatability.  Because I have a link column you can post whatever link you like (other google spreadsheet, other forum, post in WotC thread) and you can update it whenever you like.

  • Filter candidates by cheese usage.  Each candidate can get up to 6 cheese tags.  In cell K1 you can select what cheese element you want to sort by and that column will show which builds use that cheese element.  Either sort A-Z or Z-A to see who either has it or don't have it.  "Which builds have been tagged as being LFR legal"  "Which builds don't use frostcheese"


Thoughts?



DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Seems good to me...

One issue.  Blender's (and i'm sure others) KP2R, KP5R, and KP10R isn't a linear.  His KPR actually get's better for longer battles.

Like if i'm going for 2 rounds, i'd use 2 PP for brutal barrage and 12 on brillant recovery.
If i'm going 5 rounds, it's 6 for BB, and 6 for BR.
If i'm going 10 rounds, 10 for BB, and 2 for BR.

A few other examples of KPR being round dependant would be...
Other PP builds, with lower augments getting better returns.
Ongoing damage, spacing them out helps.
sage of ages reroll, will be more helpful if you don't dump all your attacks at once.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Seems good to me...

One issue.  Blender's (and i'm sure others) KP2R, KP5R, and KP10R isn't a linear.  His KPR actually get's better for longer battles.

Like if i'm going for 2 rounds, i'd use 2 PP for brutal barrage and 12 on brillant recovery.
If i'm going 5 rounds, it's 6 for BB, and 6 for BR.
If i'm going 10 rounds, 10 for BB, and 2 for BR.

A few other examples of KPR being round dependant would be...
Other PP builds, with lower augments getting better returns.
Ongoing damage, spacing them out helps.
sage of ages reroll, will be more helpful if you don't dump all your attacks at once.


Here's the wonderful thing about this Public spreadsheet, You don't need my permission to change it.  I just wanted to use your candidate as an example.  Feel free to simply adjust the numbers manually, or create a sub-sheet like I have my 'Borg' sheet and outline your KPR breakdown there and dynamically point to those numbers.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Regarding a literal killcount/overkill: we already use assumed/normalized defenses for our calculations. What is different with using the same to calculate the normalized hp for an at level bad? If we aren't using a bellcurve for the defenses, it seems odd to claim we would have to do that for hp.
Seems good to me...

One issue.  Blender's (and i'm sure others) KP2R, KP5R, and KP10R isn't a linear.  His KPR actually get's better for longer battles.

Like if i'm going for 2 rounds, i'd use 2 PP for brutal barrage and 12 on brillant recovery.
If i'm going 5 rounds, it's 6 for BB, and 6 for BR.
If i'm going 10 rounds, 10 for BB, and 2 for BR.

A few other examples of KPR being round dependant would be...
Other PP builds, with lower augments getting better returns.
Ongoing damage, spacing them out helps.
sage of ages reroll, will be more helpful if you don't dump all your attacks at once.


Here's the wonderful thing about this Public spreadsheet, You don't need my permission to change it.  I just wanted to use your candidate as an example.  Feel free to simply adjust the numbers manually, or create a sub-sheet like I have my 'Borg' sheet and outline your KPR breakdown there and dynamically point to those numbers.

No objection to that.  Kinda why i put down it's real KP4R early.  To be an example.

And actually, your mean KPR works nicely.    
Though i'd reduce the number of colums, to say... KP2R, KP5R, and KP10R.  I kinda don't want to calculate damage 6 times.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Oh, one more key to add.

noD = inadiquite defenses  (i.e. a half-elf avenger twin-striker + hurricane of blades wtih no dex or chainmail).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Oh, one more key to add.

noD = inadiquite defenses  (i.e. a half-elf avenger twin-striker + hurricane of blades wtih no dex or chainmail).


Again, be my guest.  I am transitioning from being the moderator to being the copy/paster.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Regarding a literal killcount/overkill: we already use assumed/normalized defenses for our calculations. What is different with using the same to calculate the normalized hp for an at level bad? If we aren't using a bellcurve for the defenses, it seems odd to claim we would have to do that for hp.

 Cause overkill makes you round your damage, and will causes rounding errors.

If we did average damage...
If i did 3 damage vs a 3 HP target, we'd calulate 3 vs 3, and round down to 3.
If i did 1d60 damage vs a 3 HP target, we'd calculate 35 vs 3, then round down to 3.

So you'd end up with the same number, but clearly the 1d60 is doing more.

If we did % chance to kill...
1d10 would have a 80% chance to kill a 3 hp monster.
3 would have a 100% chance to kill a 3 hp monster.

So we'd conclude that flat 3 would be superior.  But since 25% of the monsters have 4 HP, and 25% have 2 (a quick bell curve), the flat 3 would only kill 75%.  (1d10 would still be 80%).


*all numbers are obviously made up.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Right, but that was also why I suggested marking which size of bad you can kill. Stating in one round you could take out a solo is both more accurate and more important for a nova than claiming your 1 round nova kills 4 standards. It also gives room for aoe to shine by showing they actually will kill 4 standards (but not that solo).

Speaking of aoe, I second heph's recomendtion for aoe and monster assumptions. I like the idea of there always being 4 'potential' targets of an undefined distance and bursts/blasts catching a predetermined number. A tofu encounter is no less strange than our tofu monster when attempting to model a builds potential output.
What about fractional KPNR.  If I can deal 50% of a monster's HP in 2 rounds I'got a .5 KP2R.  We need to allow for sub-optimal strikers to have fractional KPNR so we can easily rank them.  I know that a monster with 1 HP is just as deadly as a monster with full HP, but so much will get washed away with variances in monster level, allies doing area attacks, allies doing meager damage to our target, us being weakened...

I vote for having fractional KPNR and simply allowing overkill (I deal twice (8*level+24) in 1 round) equate to me having 2 KPR.  It makes calculations much simpler. 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I kind assumed we were going to have fractional numbers, or at least .5 values to represent bloodied. Rounding to whole dead monsters would seem odd, since it wouldn't account for the fact that you have left a bad low enough your defender or whoever just needs to whack at it.
What about fractional KPNR.  If I can deal 50% of a monster's HP in 2 rounds I'got a .5 KP2R.  We need to allow for sub-optimal strikers to have fractional KPNR so we can easily rank them.  I know that a monster with 1 HP is just as deadly as a monster with full HP, but so much will get washed away with variances in monster level, allies doing area attacks, allies doing meager damage to our target, us being weakened...

I vote for having fractional KPNR and simply allowing overkill (I deal twice (8*level+24) in 1 round) equate to me having 2 KPR.  It makes calculations much simpler. 

^  plus all that.

But yea, overkill, while it would be nice, makes things alot more complicated (thus discurage builds), and doesn't really make comparisons any more accurate.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Blender is in. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Hopefully tonight I'll be able to copy over 1 section (Level 12 should be easy).  I'll also spend some time on what I'll with my 5 posts.  I'm thinking

  1. Link to spreadsheet, Link to how to calculate DPR -> KPR, rules for candidates, other links you guys use frequently.

  2. Epic - Probably base it on KP4R

  3. Paragon

  4. Heroic

  5. Glossary and guids (What is a normal DPR/KPR, How to calculate DPR, What to do with double rolls...) 

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Hopefully tonight I'll be able to copy over 1 section (Level 12 should be easy).  I'll also spend some time on what I'll with my 5 posts.  I'm thinking

  1. Link to spreadsheet, Link to how to calculate DPR -> KPR, rules for candidates, other links you guys use frequently


I think the spreadsheet idea is brilliant. I almost suggested it, but kept my mouth shut as it didn't go over well when suggested as a platform for power ratings/descriptions for character build guides.

You could even potentially have the thread display a read-only view of the spreadsheet that updates as folks modify it, so that you wouldn't even have to copy and paste as much. It looks like there's an option to have it republish as changes are made, so you wouldn't have to manually update the view (unless you wanted to do so to maintain some sort of editorial control... but it sounds like you're shooting for low-maintenance, which is how I like to roll).

Let me know if you want a hand setting up those views. I'm not an expert at Google docs but I bet I could figure it out. 
Hopefully tonight I'll be able to copy over 1 section (Level 12 should be easy).  I'll also spend some time on what I'll with my 5 posts.  I'm thinking

  1. Link to spreadsheet, Link to how to calculate DPR -> KPR, rules for candidates, other links you guys use frequently


I think the spreadsheet idea is brilliant. I almost suggested it, but kept my mouth shut as it didn't go over well when suggested as a platform for power ratings/descriptions for character build guides.

You could even potentially have the thread display a read-only view of the spreadsheet that updates as folks modify it, so that you wouldn't even have to copy and paste as much. It looks like there's an option to have it republish as changes are made, so you wouldn't have to manually update the view (unless you wanted to do so to maintain some sort of editorial control... but it sounds like you're shooting for low-maintenance, which is how I like to roll).

Let me know if you want a hand setting up those views. I'm not an expert at Google docs but I bet I could figure it out. 


Currently I have it configured so that whenever any row in {Heroic 1, Heroic 6, Paragon 12, Paragon 16, Epic 24, Epic 30} is changed the sheet 'HTML' is also changed.  When I get around to updating this thread with the new content all I have to do is to copy a range and paste it into my post(see the HTML button at the top of the post tools).  I have already made the mainenance low.  
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Slick! I didn't even think about the board code. What I had in mind was more using the "publish" function to embed a view of the spreadsheet. No copy and pasting would have been needed at all. However, the format is way different than what the board code version would look like. 

[edit] Doh! It can't decide whether or not to let the iframe through....

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US...
iFrame Removed
Slick! I didn't even think about the board code. What I had in mind was more using the "publish" function to embed a view of the spreadsheet. No copy and pasting would have been needed at all. However, the format is way different than what the board code version would look like. 

[edit] Doh! It can't decide whether or not to let the iframe through....

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US...
iFrame Removed


Will definitly use that link.

Lurkers:  docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US...
Builders: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqL...

Yeah, I like that.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
For a moment the iframe was working, but when I edited it to remove the text about it not working, it stopped working.

Looks like they don't want iframes.

BUT it was a little 500px wide view of the spreadsheet right in the post, like the lurker link, but handier. 
I'd like to ask a favor of a few Char Opers.  I've updated all the old candidates, having converted their DPR to KPNR, with links and authors.  The thing I haven't updated are the cheese usages.  That's a pretty big task.  Seeing that I've lost the original glossary.  If you can remember what some of the numbers/symbols meant please post them here so we can do a reverse lookup and retag the candidates with the updated glossary.

If you want to have certian cheese elements listed, now is the time to have them.  
 
If you own one of the builds and would like to outline your first 2 rounds, 5 rounds, and your final 10th round (should be just at-will DPR) please update it or else it will simply remain as though you used your at-will every round.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I played around in the spreadsheet just a tiny bit, and I'm not sure if it's as good in practice as it seems in theory.

There's of course the obvious issue that someone could deliberately vandalize it...but let's just assume that everyone will always behave correctly (even though this is editable without even the accountability of knowing who edited).

If I go in and, say, sort a list by type of cheese, that sorting is saved, and will be what everyone else who looks at it sees. And if someone wants to just play around with some numbers...it's a bit weird having those changes saved to everyone (and bad if you accidentally changed something you weren't supposed to). And if I'm sorting by one thing, and someone else wants to see it differently at the same time: we have a problem.

I haven't played around with Google Docs too much to know what it can do, but what we really need is something more along the lines of a repository, where there's a master copy and people can play around with that, but nothing is ever saved unless you specifically want it to. Not sure of the best way to do this...maybe have to make the doc itself uneditable and then people submit their builds for you to add (not ideal, I know).

EDIT: I looked into this more. Here's what I recommend: every page is private, but published to the web. The main DPR pages are re-published automatically when changes are made; sub-pages (for an individual build-maker) are only published when they say to.

You have to personally copy a build's data into the list (and also manually add people's sheets when they first want to set one up)...but that's probably good, because I think it's better that new builds need a couple days of community review before being "officially" added.

One benefit of publishing vs. actually making the doc public is that a public doc can only have up to 50 simultaneous viewers (and if people are doing their build calcs there, that could come up as an issue). On the other hand, a published doc doesn't show the formulas involved, which is an issue for the calculation sheets... hmph.
You have to personally copy a build's data into the list (and also manually add people's sheets when they first want to set one up)...but that's probably good, because I think it's better that new builds need a couple days of community review before being "officially" added.

We have 2 different links.  

Lurkers:  docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US...
Builders: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqL...

Though we can't sort in the pub-link.



Color's look nice.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

There's of course the obvious issue that someone could deliberately vandalize it...but let's just assume that everyone will always behave correctly (even though this is editable without even the accountability of knowing who edited).



This is less of an issue than it'd seem initially. There's a revision history, change by change (and by user). So if a vandal came in and replaced all the DPR goodness with gibberish, you'd need only pop into the revisions and roll back to the version right before the vandalism. Easy peasy.

You're right on the sorting, though, and I don't know of any way around that other than the fact that people are free to download a snapshot of the sheet into their own doc or excel and play with it as much as they want on their own.

Ideally, you'd have an embeddable (integrated into the forum post), independently sortable (not affecting other people's views), automatically updated/published view of the current spreadsheet. The forum's disabling of iFrames kills the easy answer to at least part of that, but I haven't given up entirely.

Is there any chance that we can request from the Powers That Be that iFrames be allowed? Not sure who to ask, but it'd make things a lot easier for embedding the sheets. Though I guess it's not THAT much of a pain to have to click through to a link.
I'd like to get some discussion going on how we should deal with riposte builds.
Because we only have room for 1 value and not "Choice A KPR, Choice B KPR" we will either have to

  1. force them to have 2 entries, which will get seperated in sorting, or 

  2. have them tagged as quoting a value assumming a monster attacks them even if it's not the smartest thing to do, or

  3. state a rule that when a choice is presented to a monster he will choose the option that leads to him taking the least damage (provoke OA by charging someone else or take the riposte in the face)

Thoughts?

Also, you monk builds need to calculate how many monsters' total HP you can churn through in 2 rounds, 5 rounds and 10 rounds.  No longer will we support you having to quote 2 DPRs (primary and secondary) but they are now added together because the ranking value is Number of Monsers you've killed in 5 rounds.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Thoughts on new sig?  TMI?  Rename something?
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I'd vote 3.  We're fighting blocks of tofu, not angsty teenagers.  So assume minimal survival instincts.

Only issue is stealth builds.  Can you assume a monster would provoke an OA?  In my experience, i get it about 2/3 of the time, with about 1/2 the time an enemy not needing to provoke to attack with an ally in melee range, or just a burst, and occasionally i get a 3-4 attacks per round.


I'm tempted to say you want to add
OMGWTFBBQ: +6 KP5R
No one want's to play with you anymore:  +7 KP5R


But it is slightly big.  Perhaps an sblock?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Being the riposter, I agree on posting a single value of the least damaging option. I like to include the other option just as a reference, but you can't assume it as you mimimal baseline. Only other fair option I can think of is giving some kind of weighted average, but I don't think I'm even comfortable with that.

That said, you might want to reconsider you monk rule unless we can come to an agreement on aoe/overkill/whole kills. Bloodying 3 enemies a turn is vastly different than killing one and bloodying a second. I'm not saying one or the other is necessarily better, but calculating them the same is misleading and potentially overstates the value of aoe and dispersed damage.
Totally missed the two different links, very nice.

I found a way to sort in the "builder" sheet without affecting everyone: switch to List View (View -> List) and then look at it that way. I don't have the time to look into it now, but if there were some way to make this view the default, that'd help a lot.
How about this for AoE and Monks:  If you hit multiple targets you can take fractional KPR for your primary target, but all secondary targets you can only count them if you've killed them, all excess damage to secondary targets go to the next set of secondary targets

.5 KPR to primary
.25 KPR to 3x secondary targets

Round 1


  • Monster 1 is bloodied

  • Monster 2-4 are 1/4th down

  • KP1R = .5



Round 2


  • Monster 1 is dead

  • Monster 2-4 are bloodied

  • KP2R = 1 



Round 3


  • Monster 1a is bloodied

  • Monster 2-4 are at quarter HP

  • KP3R = 1.5



Round 4 


  • Monster 1a is dead

  • Monster 2-4 are dead

  • KP4R = 5



Round 5


  • Monster 1b is bloodied

  • Monster 2a-4a are 1/4th down

  • KP5R = 5.5 



If you were using encounter powers you are already doing a round by round breakdown
If you are doing simple at-will calculations you have to seperate it into primary KPR (fractional) and secondary KPNR = n attacks * floor(KPNR)

In this case
5*.5 + 3*floor(1.25)
2.5+3*1 = 5.5 KP5R

DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I like it! Good compromise.
One problem I see with it is that we now have an arbitrary threshold where your secondary KPR will give you a huge boost to KP5R
that arbitrary threshold for KP5R is .2.  Once you hit that value as secondary targets you can kill your secondary targets after 5 rounds but wouldn't do the same for KP4R, which may/may not be wanted.
Since we are allowing primary targets to have fractionaly KPR because of variance in monster HP, allies contribution... why would this not also be the case for secondary targets.  The only reason I can see for favoring primary over secondary is that killing the BBEG is more important than killing his bodyguards.  How much is bias. 
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Mm. What if we allowed .5 fractions for secondary targets?

Personally, I liked the first idea specifically because it did have aggregated bursts. That might be because in my experience our groups tend to focus fire, so save for the one guy doing AOE, they won't take any damage unless the primary target is dead. I suppose in less organized groups, focus fire might not exist....but I kind of assumed along with our optimal strikers and optimal monster decisions that they would also have an optimal party making optimal choices.
Mm. What if we allowed .5 fractions for secondary targets? Personally, I liked the first idea specifically because it did have aggregated bursts. That might be because in my experience our groups tend to focus fire, so save for the one guy doing AOE, they won't take any damage unless the primary target is dead. I suppose in less organized groups, focus fire might not exist....but I kind of assumed along with our optimal strikers and optimal monster decisions that they would also have an optimal party making optimal choices.


Every group I've played in the tactic is "Well he's attacking that guy so I'll attack that other dude."  5 rounds later all baddies are still there and they all look like minions.  Then the AoE guy looks realy nice.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Haha. Your healer must get frustrated keeping your table alive. I know I would :s

Hrm. The thing I want to discourage cropping up as dpr kings is builds using dual strike or throw and stab. Pure total damage dealt they easily compete or beat twinstrike, but we know that isn't the case. They don't even come close precisely because the damage is spread out and not focused.
I fear we may be wrongly preaching Single target > multi-target.
A 5 round combat = a 5 round combat.
Total rounds being equal, the spreading out damage has only 2 negative concequences: team hero takes more damage, team hero has a greater chance of having bad conditions from still-alive monsters.  And when has DPR king cared about survivability?
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
True. But, part of the use of the thread is to help /strikers/ develop strong builds they can use. Some of that might only be neat tricks or ideas, some genuine and viable builds, and some on the bell curve might have no use on the table at all. But if pure damage is all we care about, then ye....controllers will be our new kings. Why fight and scheme to optimize or generate multi-attacks when you can just aoe and double or triple your output, no thought required?
^ agree. Damage is damage, and this is the damage thread. Just assume you have 4 pacifict clerics keep yu going.

That said, we still need to adjust, because there won't always be a seconday target, or one in range.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I hate to encourage people to convert from AoE to be comparable to Single target strikers, but here I go.
Either people will be ranked based on their primary target KPR and be satisfied with having a "3x3" next to their KPR value, or they will convert to single target KPR and put AoE as a tag.

KPR conversion for AoE that doesn't target allies
new KPR = single target KPR * (-0.0293 N^2 + 0.7016 N +0.3369)

KPR conversion for AoE that does target allies
new KPR = single target KPR * (-0.0321 N^2 + 0.4735 N + 0.7138)

For AoE attacks that deal different damage to secondary targets you'll have to calculate those seperatly.  
Doesn't target allies
total KPR = Single target KPR + secondary KPR * (-0.0293 N^2 + 0.7016 N +0.3369 - 1)

Does target allies
total KPR = Single target KPR + secondary KPR * (-0.0321 N^2 + 0.4735 N + 0.7138 - 1)

Attacks that have limited number of targets
Each secondary target is worth 1/2 of the last target. 
Monk with flurry of blows: Primary KPR + .5 * secondary KPR + .25 tertiary KPR...

See this page for example calculations: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqL...
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
The Current top KPR striker is incorrect.  Carrion Crawler Brain Juice is a Daily use Assassin Poison so you can't use it in calculations since you can't use it every encounter.