How about a card game anyone?

One way to increase profits (which I don't think anyone would argue since that is the goal of most businesses) would be to design D&D more like Magic.  Have rare cards, sell packages designed by class, and cross your fingers it makes money.  Just a thought, but it might happen.  They are already testing the waters with their bonus cards.

I won't buy any RPG product that includes randomized collectable booster packs as an integral and necessary feature of the game. I won't play with any group that chooses to make use of optional rules that utilize randomized collectable booster packs. A lot of people feel the same way. 

I don't mind rules released in card format. In fact, rules released in card format is one of the things I love about WFRPG 3e. But, randomized collectable card formats are a major turn off as far as I am concerned.  


Just my 2 cents. 


I won't buy any RPG product that includes randomized collectable booster packs as an integral and necessary feature of the game. I won't play with any group that chooses to make use of optional rules that utilize randomized collectable booster packs. A lot of people feel the same way. 

I don't mind rules released in card format. In fact, rules released in card format is one of the things I love about WFRPG 3e. But, randomized collectable card formats are a major turn off as far as I am concerned.  


Just my 2 cents. 




This. 
Preferences... Not where they should be. Asking someone if they're Trolling you is in violation of section 3 of the Code of Conduct.
The thing with pen & paper RPGs is that any material is available to everyone
Throwing an artificial rarity onto RPG source-materials is completely futile, even before rampant filesharing  of OCR scans of every-damn-thing is considered.  It's like insisting Ted can't use stuff out of the book Bill bought until Ted also buys that book.

Also, Spellfire sucked.
An RPG and a CCG are mutually exclusive to me. I want D&D the RPG, not the card game, not the breakfast cereal, and not the flamethrower.




Well, I've always wanted a flamethrower...
"And why the simple mechanics? Two reasons: First, complex mechanics invariably channel and limit the imagination; second, my neurons have better things to do than calculate numbers and refer to charts all evening." -Over the Edge
Where DnD has had cards from as far back as AD&D, I hope that they would not go down a collectable card game rpg as they did gamma world. Collectable card games are better for head-head games where the person with the most money to spend on the card usually wins not an rpg. (I appologize for the Magic Players here if you don't agree, but it is my experience that fighting a guy with a bunch of mox'ies, black lotuses, channels, lightening bolts, and forks kinda well sucked). And I shudder to think of my last experience as a noob at the DnD encounters table where everyone whipped out personal collectable fortune cards, started doing super things, and I felt like a angel with a tree up my rump as I sat there wondering why DnD suddenly became a game where I was alienated from their little society of "you cannot do that because you don't have the card..." it just wasn't an rpg.

If they did make DnD the CCG it would be the first edition of DnD I do not get... which would be a sad sad day.

But on the other hand, the cards have always been a bonus if we can have them all available to us (and not collectable), so that the DM & players could fashion a world they like.
The Fortune Cards were a nice rule to add. They by no means are, nor should they be, necessary. it was bad enough that the freaking miniature lines were always random draw, making me look like the weirdo for having the role of an undead monstrosity played by a Shardmind. I never even knew anyone who played the miniatures game as it was presented...

So no, no CCG for the game as a mainstream element. managing character sheets gets hard enough sometimes, without all those little slips of paper getting every-damn-where...
One way to increase profits would be to design D&D more like Magic.  Have rare cards, sell packages designed by class, and cross your fingers it makes money. 

Fortune Cards and the mini line were sold like Magic cards.  Don't know how successful they were, exactly, but the mini line is gone, and there's 3 sets of fortune cards, so far, so maybe 50/50?  They also tested the CCG-mechanic-in-an-RPG with Gamma World before they did Fortune Cards, so that'd also make it look pretty plausible. 

In order to make profit claims sound plausible to their Dark Corporate Overloards at Hasbro, WotC /did/ try to make out 4e DDI to be some sort of WoW-like on-line cash cow.  Maybe they'll try that sort of pitch with 5e, but using the more plausible idea of CCG-like revenue, given that they invented CCGs.

One of the long-time problems with D&D has been the 'vancian' system, which, in 4e, spread to all classes (Daily powers).  Daily powers screw up encounter balance, and narrow the ways in which you can run the game, as well as making classes harder to balance.  Getting rid of them would arguably improve the game, but, it'd leave the game very 'flat' as well, with only 1/encounter tricks for 'peak power.' 

Gamma World has no dailies, but it does have peak-power tricks - using a CCG mechanic.  Instead of more potent mutations that are useable 1/day (classic Gamma World had a few), PCs get to draw an 'alpha mutation' card from a deck they build at the start of the encounter.  The mutation is more powerful than a regular encounter mutation, is useable once that encounter, and will be discarded at the end of then encounter (and might morph to a different one before you get to use it).  A similar mechanic is used for magic items (also a major source of issues throughout D&D history).  When you find an item, your DM /might/ assign you an item, but most likely he'll have you draw from a deck you built (like a 'wish list') or from a deck he customized to represent the items that might be found in the area your in or from a default DM Deck that comes with the game.  When you use an item, at the end of the encounter, you roll a check to see if it still works, if you fail, you discard it (and, if it's from your own deck, may eventually find it again) or 'salvage' it as a much less potent item.  Decks of exploits, spells, prayers, and magic items might easily replace both class and item daily powers.

 

 

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One way to increase profits (which I don't think anyone would argue since that is the goal of most businesses) would be to design D&D more like Magic.  Have rare cards, sell packages designed by class, and cross your fingers it makes money.  Just a thought, but it might happen.  They are already testing the waters with their bonus cards.

Honestly, if they were to make D&D like Magic, it would totally ruin D&D. Games like Magic are not, in my opinion, based on skill. They are based on how much money you are willing to spend. Even if you spend a ton of money, you are not guaranteed to have the cards come up in the order you need them. Also, you run the risk of your very expensive investments getting put on a banned list. There are several things that make D&D. The DM, the players, the dice, the character sheets, etc...). It's curious to see someone who has the forum name penandpaper2 being a supporter of turning D&D into Magic. No offense, but I hope you NEVER get your wish.
One way to increase profits (which I don't think anyone would argue since that is the goal of most businesses) would be to design D&D more like Magic.  Have rare cards, sell packages designed by class, and cross your fingers it makes money.  Just a thought, but it might happen.  They are already testing the waters with their bonus cards.

Honestly, if they were to make D&D like Magic, it would totally ruin D&D. Games like Magic are not, in my opinion, based on skill. They are based on how much money you are willing to spend. Even if you spend a ton of money, you are not guaranteed to have the cards come up in the order you need them. Also, you run the risk of your very expensive investments getting put on a banned list. There are several things that make D&D. The DM, the players, the dice, the character sheets, etc...). It's curious to see someone who has the forum name penandpaper2 being a supporter of turning D&D into Magic. No offense, but I hope you NEVER get your wish.



Oh please, I do not mean that I am a fan of that.  One of the things I hated about the mini lines were that they were these random draws.  A lot of money could be wasted, by both DM's and players, and I am never a fan of that.  I am a lover of RPG's, and although have dabbled a bit in magic and a few other card games, I simply connected the two and thought what if?

Please believe me when I say that I like 4e, I enjoyed the 2e, and was a fan of Basic and Advanced when I was a young lad.  I don't want to see that model, but it seems to me that if they can get over the hump of negativity, it might be a plausable model.  That's all I'm saying.

 
One way to increase profits (which I don't think anyone would argue since that is the goal of most businesses) would be to design D&D more like Magic.  Have rare cards, sell packages designed by class, and cross your fingers it makes money.  Just a thought, but it might happen.  They are already testing the waters with their bonus cards.



And if this were to come to be?

I'd be running a game based upon piracy.
well as far as i know the fortune cards weren't realy a sucess.
becouse most of the DnD player base seems not intrested in collectable cards.

But....
wizards does have a good history of printing cards with magic the gathering.
i think one of the shadowfell expansions came with a card deck for determing effects opon the players each player drew one card from the deck each in game day.
but this was a full deck not collectible cards.

so maybe they will introduce full size decks as extra mecanics for some campaigns.

example for dark sun there could be a desert travel deck.
where you draw 1 card at random for each day you travel trough the desert.
these determin if you find water cources along the way, or encounter envoiremental hazzards, or random encounters.
but again thhis would be a full deck and not collectable cards.
One way to increase profits (which I don't think anyone would argue since that is the goal of most businesses) would be to design D&D more like Magic.  Have rare cards, sell packages designed by class, and cross your fingers it makes money.  Just a thought, but it might happen.  They are already testing the waters with their bonus cards.



In addition to D&D? Sure, maybe. Could be fun, might let us get into the groove while waiting on someone to show up.

In place of the RPG? I will figure out how to punch people through the internet, and then knock you off your chair for suggesting such nonsense. 
Yeah, no.  This is not kewls.  Power cards are one thing but random draw for class abilities or something like that?  [fluffy bunny] that noise.
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OP, didja play 4e?

The cards weren't collectable, other than collecting lots and lots of cards you weren't gonna use.  But you should almost be able to play 4e without a character sheet - just a deck of power cards and those extra cards with your defeneses and skills. 

Of course D&D is far too customizable for preprinted cards, or even the CB printed cards, but if you took lame feats and card maxed your character I bet you could toss the character sheet out and shuffle up some adventure!

Seriously though, MtG is an awesome game.  Leave well enough awesome alone.

A CCG that is flavored like D&D, might be fun. Though I've never been a fan of such games, for the reason that rich kids always have the best decks. I definitely don't think it should be a required element of the RPG, though.

Though I will take a moment to defend the cards in Gamma World. I haven't actually played it (though I will be soon), but it seems like they are a welcome addition to the game. The game comes with enough cards to play. The booster packs are very optional. If a GM wanted to ban them from the game, it would be a simple matter. For Gamma World, the cards seem delighfully random, which definitely fits the flavor of the world, and the rest of system. I don't think a similar system would work well in D&D, since the flavor is distinctly different.

So basically, cards can be a useful way to store information about your character, but a CCG element, or a random draw is pretty silly for this game, IMO. 
What if the cards represent attacks, spells, etc that you learn from a skill tree?  Each basic class has a set, and the skill trees (just like feats and powers) could expand as the game did (ie. classes).  How would a random draw in a  pre-built deck of powers be much different from determining when to use your daily or a die roll?  

On that note, how about combining the dice and cards? 
What if the cards represent attacks, spells, etc that you learn from a skill tree?  Each basic class has a set, and the skill trees (just like feats and powers) could expand as the game did (ie. classes).  How would a random draw in a  pre-built deck of powers be much different from determining when to use your daily or a die roll?  

On that note, how about combining the dice and cards? 


Yeah, but how are you going to explain that from a narrative perspective? Gamma World had random mutations that happened as a result of randomly converging timelines. How does a wizard learn a bunch of spells, and then randomly only remember 1 of them? The whole point of giving players multiple spells and powers, is that it gives them options.
No.

Things like Fortune Cards are the farthest it should go, and it should remain optional.

If they want to make a CCG-RPG, they should build it on MTG, not on D&D.
What if the cards represent attacks, spells, etc that you learn from a skill tree?  Each basic class has a set, and the skill trees (just like feats and powers) could expand as the game did (ie. classes).  How would a random draw in a  pre-built deck of powers be much different from determining when to use your daily or a die roll?  

On that note, how about combining the dice and cards? 


Yeah, but how are you going to explain that from a narrative perspective? Gamma World had random mutations that happened as a result of randomly converging timelines. How does a wizard learn a bunch of spells, and then randomly only remember 1 of them? The whole point of giving players multiple spells and powers, is that it gives them options.



I think this would be the easiest to explain.  I combat situation is hectic and chaotic.  Also, remember, we're talking about 6 second intervals.  Here's a few perhaps statements regarding the wizard example posted above:

1.  The wizard needs a bodily movement like arching backwards, then forwards to cast the spell.  He can't because he's backed against a wall.
2.  The wizard needs to take a big gasp of air for a verbal shout.  He can't because of the acidic plumage of a recently cast spell.
3.  The wizard needs a component and she can't cast it because the component fell to the bottom of her bag.  (I mean, I've seen my wife look for her phone for two minutes inside her purse.  Let alone find a tube of lipstick, a piece of paper, or whatever else they carry in that bag of holding! Laughing)
4.  The wizard needs to raise his/her arms and wiggle their fingers.  They can't because they've just ducked avoiding an axe blow.
5.  The wizard needs to step to the left in order to cast a spell.  Why left?  I don't know, but the laws of magic are fickle.  The fighter just stepped in their way and stopped them from doing it.

These are five things off the top of my head.  An analogy might better explain it though:
Every UFC fighter knows how to do an armbar, a rear naked choke, or a superman punch.  So why not do it and win?  Because those things are situational and require the right circumstances.  Every fencer knows how to reposte.  Why not do it each time an opponent attacks?  Maybe your blade is too high or you're leaning on your front foot too heavily.  Again, circumstances dictate what a fencer can and can't do.

Laslty, there's a counter-argument to the narrative.  I think it's much more difficult to explain why a fighter can do something only once a day.  Why once a day?  Why is there a daily?  I mean, you can get around a wizard.  You can say it drains his mana pool or exhausts him.  A priest you can say divine intervention only comes every now and then.  But to say a fighter can only do this once every three or four fights is less easily put in the narrative than someone not being able to do something in six second intervals.
Personally I dont mind cards as a mechanic alone, but I would be against it becoming a CCG game.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

One way to increase profits (which I don't think anyone would argue since that is the goal of most businesses) would be to design D&D more like Magic.  Have rare cards, sell packages designed by class, and cross your fingers it makes money.  Just a thought, but it might happen.  They are already testing the waters with their bonus cards.

Money is the main thing, afterall.  If they could do it in a way that didn't ruin the game any worse than what they're already signed on to do to try to get the grognards back, why not?

Gamma World uses a collectible card mechanic.  With all the controversey about vancian magic and whether martial characters should get dailies and whatnot, such a mechanic might be a valid compromise.

Instead of having a daily exploit or prepping a spell, you stack you 'exploit deck' or 'spell book' with cards you think might be handy that day.  At the start of the combat, you draw one (or more) depending on your level.  Those are the exploits the coming battle presents you with opportunities to use, or the spells that can be cast in the immediate area/future given the current metaphsycial conditions (there's a mana haze out of the NW, and the stars are derpy) or the miracles the gods arbitrarily see fit to grant you.  You get to choose when, but don't take too long - the prevailing conditions can change suddenly (if you roll a 1, you discard a card and draw a different one).

Gives characters some peak power and drama, allows for some cards to be just plain better, because, presumably, you wouldn't be able to stack too many of the same card in your deck - that is, deck-building rules would be part of the balance.


Similarly, instead of a wish list, you build a deck of item cards you feel fit your character, and the DM can call for you to draw from that deck when you find loot - or draw from his deck, or find specific assigned loot.

 

 

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One way to increase profits (which I don't think anyone would argue since that is the goal of most businesses) would be to design D&D more like Magic.  Have rare cards, sell packages designed by class, and cross your fingers it makes money.  Just a thought, but it might happen.  They are already testing the waters with their bonus cards.

That would be a different game.  Nothing wrong with a TCG coexisting with the RPG, but it's simply different, and wouldn't be a version change. 

It could even be done so some folks who like this sort of thing could plug it in by buying Parcel Packs or something geared towards a tier or level range of play.  The PC's are victorious and the DM tosses an unopened pack on the table for them to fight over.  It should be pretty far removed from core though, or it will tick a lot of folks off.

I want to spend $35 at most on a rule book and be done.

Not $4.95 for an 8 card pack that might have something I need in it.  I don't want to be sitting on eBay looking for that wizard spell I don't have.

Then you get into what is ok to print online.  Magic cards are all out on the internet - full details and everything of what they do.  But you need official cards in order to play in tournaments.

I would wager most games are home games for D&D, so "official" is not needed...but if there is a random CCG element you need to be able to allow people to publish the details of the card so they know what they need to get.

In other words, the moment those cards spoiler lists make it to the internet, people are going to start out with Magic Set Editor, 3x5 index cards, and excel grids made into random tables.

In otherwords, the CCG element is a bad idea for D&D 
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I want to spend $35 at most on a rule book and be done.

Not $4.95 for an 8 card pack that might have something I need in it.  I don't want to be sitting on eBay looking for that wizard spell I don't have.

Then you get into what is ok to print online.  Magic cards are all out on the internet - full details and everything of what they do.  But you need official cards in order to play in tournaments.

I would wager most games are home games for D&D, so "official" is not needed...but if there is a random CCG element you need to be able to allow people to publish the details of the card so they know what they need to get.

In other words, the moment those cards spoiler lists make it to the internet, people are going to start out with Magic Set Editor, 3x5 index cards, and excel grids made into random tables.

In otherwords, the CCG element is a bad idea for D&D 



yes collectable would be bad, but i have seen cards that i was intrested in.
for example there where chase decks for cities, if you where in a chase in a city you could draw cards at random for obsticals you encounterd.
but these kind of decks are not collectable it is just a deck you buy that includes the rules for using it.

i could also see a random encounter deck a small booklet describing the encounters,
and a deck of cards with nice art, and the numbers of the encounters.
DM: ok your traveling trough the forest and happen to stumble upon..
The DM takes out the deck of cards and lets one of the players draw one then looks up the encounter in the booklet and sets it up.

 
If WotC ever does this, it will be the way they tell us, "Okay, guys, we're out of the tabletop business.  Fend for yourselves."
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
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yes collectable would be bad, but i have seen cards that i was intrested in.
for example there where chase decks for cities, if you where in a chase in a city you could draw cards at random for obsticals you encounterd.
but these kind of decks are not collectable it is just a deck you buy that includes the rules for using it.

i could also see a random encounter deck a small booklet describing the encounters,
and a deck of cards with nice art, and the numbers of the encounters.
DM: ok your traveling trough the forest and happen to stumble upon..
The DM takes out the deck of cards and lets one of the players draw one then looks up the encounter in the booklet and sets it up.

 



Totally agree - decks of "things" that are non-random and are more of an aide than a required element is a good idea.  I love the deck that came with the shadowfell boxed set.  I think we could use more of those.  

 
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How about NO. If they try and make this a hybrid CCG / RPG I am out. I'll either stay with 4E or start playing Pathfinder.

Cards as an option to add some randomness to the session I can see, but not as something that buff's the players.. like critical failure decks, or random encounter decks.. The PC's should play the characters they rolled.. not be allowed to go out and "buy" more powers via these cards.

I bought a couple decks of fortune cards and tried em out with my group and all I can say is that the game is already heavily tilted toward the PC's. The cards just made it painfully obvious. It took a lot of the tension out of the session. The PC's always had one free power they could use. It was like a get out of jail free card.

We used them for a couple of sessions and then dumped them.

As everyone on the planet has already pointed out, if Wizards made 5e a full-fledged collectible card game, the reaction would be so swift and so violently negative that D&DNext would be dead within minutes. The D&D brand name would be buried and decaying until Wizards finally sold it to Paizo. This is as certain as the rising of the sun.