Kratos, the High-Level Fighter

A lot of 'debate' has been done about the relative badassery of fighters and wizards throughout D&D.  There's a sizeable section of people who don't want fighters to suck at high level, and I thought it'd be nice to provide an example of what I think a high-level fighter should look like.

Kratos, God of War.  No spells, no magic, just ridiculously superhuman strength and agility, with some badass weaponry he knows how to use better than anyone on the planet.  This is what an epic fighter should be, to me.

Now, I ask this in a completely serious manner:  Does anyone think that this is out of line?  Should this not be the case?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I love to think of high-level fighters as similar to Kratos too. However, for the sake of truth, I need to point out that Kratos has magic, spells and the like. I also believe that fighters should pick up some magic abilities in any case, because let's face it: they are in a fantasy world. Heroes are magical in their very nature, because they do things that other people are not able to do. Living in a magical world and doing all that adventuring is bound to give you some magical knack...
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
Some magic, yeah, but even now I don't really think of it as core to his badassness.  If you were to take Kratos without his spells, that really is what I think of as a high-level fighter.  Being able to zap people with Poseidon's wrath isn't really what I mean.  It's the ridiculously awesome things he does with those chains.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
When I think of a super-badass fighter, I expect him to have high stats and abilities, but I also expect him to have access to the best armor and weapons available in the campaign.  If the campaign has magic in it, then he should have premium magical gear.


He should also have appropriately powerful contacts, resources and followers.  I think this component got lost somewhere between 1e and 4e.
Kratos without spells in a good example of what a high level fighter could be.  (the only god of war game I have played was on the psp and I don't recall him having any spells... )

I agree that he should have powerful contacts, resources and followers... and magic items... all at levels appropriate to the setting.

What do I mean by that?  well conan had all the badassery... but he rarely had any magic items (off the top of my head the only time he had a magic sword was "phoenix on the sword"... but I've not read all of the stories.  PS. only counting Robert E. Howard's work).  In that setting magic items are very rare so he shouldn't need to have them.  They do exist though... so he could have one.

I, personally, dislike the 'magic item in every slot' approach... but if they are that common in your game then so be it.

I think Kratos's weapons definately count as magical though.  And that is fine.
It's been a while since I've played God of War, but games like that and others usually have the warrior unlocking special moves and combos as you progress through the game. Player skill comes in how effectively you use those combos in succession. 4e does exactly that with it's model of A/E/D/U.

Knights, Slayers, and Hunter also do this although you're simply switching between stances but using the MBA as your catch all leading to a similar effect in game play. This was somehow simpler. AEDU isn't that complicated at all if people took the time to step back and see what it was doing. Some people just refused and only saw them as "spells".

So you can already be like Kratos. Hopefully 5e won't abandon melee classes and make them nothing more than the Wizard's lackeys like older editions did.
I don't think it is out of line. The problem is that if you want to introduce magic into the equation, then I can easily imagine more powerful wizards. The problem comes if we want to allow extreme PC fighters into the same system as PC wizards who can kill them with a thought from miles away before the fighter wakes up in the morning, which is what some wizard players want.

However powerful you can imagine a fighter, I can imagine a more powerful wizard. Because ultimately that's what magic means.

Quite simply if you want to allow epic level fighters, the power level of PC wizards needs to constrained. I'm fine with that personally, because even in 4e I start to lose interest by epic levels. But obviously there are a lot of players who don't want any limits on their wizard.
imagine

This hits the nail on the head.

The issue about fighter-wizard balance isn't about how powerful we want them to be.  It's the idea that the fighter represents the real, and the wizard represents the imagined.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
If we want an entirely mundane fighter, go look up Groo the Wanderer.

No magic items.
INT score of roughly 2.
Unstoppable murder machine.
Lobo

The god of war will be able to do extraordinary things, but not supernatural thing. Narrative is key here.

He won't fly but he'll make incredible jumps.

He won't teleport, but he will be able to charge as fast as lightning.

He won't hit multiple targets with one fireball, but he will be able to pull the exploite of swinging at every opponent he threatens.

He won't be able to animate the dead, but he will be able to inspire people to join his cause and raise armies.

He won't summon a energy field to protect him, but he always wears the best heavy armor and the best shields ever forged and enchanted.

He won't be able to cast wish, but the wizard will wish he could go at it all day like the god of war.
Just because you can imagine a wizard who kills God with a twitch of his eyebrow doesn't mean it's a playable character or a staple archetype of heroic fantasy.

D&D is a fantasy RPG, and the genre does include wizards.  Evil wizards that the heroic warrior kills.  Good wizards who give the heroic warrior a magic sword to help him slay the dragon.  Hot sorceresses who give the heroic warrior helpful information about about his enemies in return for a good time.  Friendly wizards who remove a curse or heal a terrible injury so the hero can continue with his quest.   Court wizards who intrigue against the hero, or give him invaluable assistance, or both.  Charlatans who decieve the hero and have no real magical power. 

What it doesn't include:  wizards who resolve all the conflicts in the plotline with a well-chosen spell.


Just as fiction doesn't include the most powerful wizard you can imagine, just because you can imagine him, RPGs that have playable wizards don't include the most powerful wizard you can imagine - unless /all/ the PCs are super-powerful reality-warping wizards, of course, like in Mage: the Ascension.

 

 

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My vote still goes to Guts from the Berserk series.  Just a man with a big slab of iron and a ton of demons to kill.

What it doesn't include:  wizards who resolve all the conflicts in the plotline with a well-chosen spell.



A fine assertion, but what you have to realize is that the opposition you are encountering is from the people who want this:


 - unless /all/ the PCs are super-powerful reality-warping wizards, of course, like in Mage: the Ascension.



At least from wizards/druids/clerics.

The basic dilemma is this: either some magical concepts are simply off-limits, or martial concepts stop being able to compete at a certain level.

I favor the former approach myself, but it's important to understand that there are a lot of people who favor the latter, and they complained vehemently about 4e, and they are part of the audience that 5e is trying to reach. 



The issue about fighter-wizard balance isn't about how powerful we want them to be.  It's the idea that the fighter represents the real, and the wizard represents the imagined.



That's not how I would phrase it. After all, Batman is definitely martial, but also definitely capable of feats that no actual person is capable of, such as dodging bullets.

But there are definitely limitations to what a character is capable of through extreme badassery alone. Those limits aren't based on reality, per se. But they are based on cause and effect. A fighter might be able to leap fifty feet in the air and chop the head of a giant in two, but he can't psychicly enter the giant's dreams and force him to relive his greatest fears over and over again. A rogue can leap in the air and bounce off three walls at 45 degree angles, then land on his feet after a 100 foot drop as long as he is carrying an umbrella, but a wizard can do the same thing without the walls, and he never has to come down.

And of course for every person there is a point where suspension of disbelief just snaps when it comes to physical feats. When people start flying and throwing fireballs at each other and then explain that it's because of their advanced ninja skills, I don't hear "These are perfectly natural abilities that are the result of our rigorous physical training." I hear "Ninjitsu is magic."

That's why I rejected several of the examples proffered in the other thread on this topic. (Aside: why was a second thread created about the same topic when there was a perfectly good one on the front page?)  Superman, Spider-Man, and the Incredible Hulk are not "martial" characters. The physical feats they are capable of are the result of magical phlebotinum. I would say that anybody who would be described in their own universe as having super powers, magic, the favor of the gods that manifests as anything greater than good luck, or alien technology does not fall into the category of martial characters. In this thread, it doesn't help that two of the four examples are parodies.
the thing that i find wierd about the fighter is that his stats(strength,constituion and sometimes dexterity) dont improve) as a fighter who exerts the limits of his physical powers he should be improving. maybe not a direct bonus to those stats, but what about an inherent bonus, not to mention giving him a choice of combat maneuvers that will let him do epic  things, like Kratos's epic chain blade attacks.
Isn't that what his class abilities are (meant to be) for?  be they specialisation (and mastery) and extra attacks (2e), feats (3e) or powers (4e)
the thing that i find wierd about the fighter is that his stats(strength,constituion and sometimes dexterity) dont improve) as a fighter who exerts the limits of his physical powers he should be improving. maybe not a direct bonus to those stats, but what about an inherent bonus, not to mention giving him a choice of combat maneuvers that will let him do epic  things, like Kratos's epic chain blade attacks.



Well in 3e and 4e, the fighter's ability scores do improve, and they do gain special attacks as they level. So I would say that most players agree with you.
If we want an entirely mundane fighter, go look up Groo the Wanderer.

No magic items.
INT score of roughly 2.
Unstoppable murder machine.


You forgot his passive ability to sink boats and ships unless he brings Rufferto along with him, and to screw up Granny Groo's con jobs.

Although I wondered why people don't view martial "powers" as just advanced sword techniques that a character learns as they're adventuring. Maybe they carry a copy of the good ol' Puissant Manual with them and study it when they get downtime?
I always figured that fighters and other martial classes gain a mastery of ki, weather consciously or unconsciously. Thus allowing them to transcend physical limits. Just a different kind of magic.
First, I have to admit I don't know who this Kratos guy is. Second, this is going to be a little off-topic from the other posts.

When I picture a high-level fighter, I picture a guy who does incredible deed but still used the same sword and armor he started with, if it's appropriate to the story. Or perhaps he will only wear the armor he received when he (helped) rescue the temple and was named its defender. What I don't see is a guy who is wearing a mismatch of armor and gear recently torn off of corpses, and the gear changing every week.

Is this what the community sees? I don't know. How should we make the game that easily encompasses this vision? I don't know. 
What I don't see is a guy who is wearing a mismatch of armor and gear recently torn off of corpses, and the gear changing every week.
Is this what the community sees? I don't know. How should we make the game that easily encompasses this vision? I don't know. 



I will point out this thread, in which I try to suggest a concept that could be a possible solution. Basically, a system where your "meaningful" items grow with you, and may even gain special powers after appropriate "quests" or fundamental events for your character, instead of a system where the boss' sword is just plain better than you ancestral weapon. Which is unfun.

Also, another problem is when the opposite happens: I had a situation where the armor that the PC's rival has worn to gather all lycanthropes, a level 30 magical armor with all kinds of properties and cool story-related effects (just to name one, I had created a specific item ritual that allowed the wearer to speak to all lycanthropes in existance) was still less useful that the armor the firendly party wizard had crafted a couple levels before that, because it had I can't remember which broken power (probably Displacer or Veteran Armor or something). This shouldn't happen, but it was incredibly common with, for instance, bloodclaw weapons pre-errata or other significantly powerful magic items...
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
First, I have to admit I don't know who this Kratos guy is. Second, this is going to be a little off-topic from the other posts.

When I picture a high-level fighter, I picture a guy who does incredible deed but still used the same sword and armor he started with, if it's appropriate to the story. Or perhaps he will only wear the armor he received when he (helped) rescue the temple and was named its defender. What I don't see is a guy who is wearing a mismatch of armor and gear recently torn off of corpses, and the gear changing every week.

Is this what the community sees? I don't know. How should we make the game that easily encompasses this vision? I don't know. 


This is one of those abstract problems people have for whatever reason with 4e, although it's no different than what came before in other editions. 4e just places a higher value on magic items as a way of customizing your character, which is why the game recommends wish lists for items as opposed to gaining random items that may be of little or no value to the player. I remember 2e games where I maybe only ever had 2-3 magic items at any given time (not including potions and scrolls), where as with 4e my characters will often have 6-8 magic items which i don't even blink an eye at.

As a DM you don't have to give out a hodge-podge of items to your party, and as a player you can describe your equipment however you please.

Here's a few examples on how to make this work from my own campaigns and adventures:
(NOTE: None of these ideas are new or original)


  • The Hero seeks out specific items - It's always exciting to go on a quest to claim the Sword of a Thousand Truths. If your players give you a wish list of items make part of the adventure or campaign an actual goal to find these mystical items. Does the Tiefling want a Flaming Longsword called "Hellbringer"? Not a problem. Perhaps he knows that the evil Efreeti lord they're on a quest to deal happens to have one in his armory, something he took from a former hero or perhaps even someone from the Tiefling's past (former master, grandfather, ancient family sword, etc). Commonly requested items such as Iron Armbands of Power should be easily found on recently slain brutes. You're likely to have at least 2-3 party members who want them anyways.

  • Items level up with the player - Sometimes players go for a particular build and are happy with what they have. If the Tiefling has his family's ancient Flaming longsword just level the item up at appropriate times. You can easily tie this into the story too. Upon killing the evil necromancer the heroes find the dark shard that was the source of BBEG's power. The fighter smashes it to pieces or perhaps the Wizard is able to syphon off it's power. With the broken shards or syphoned power the wizard (or a friendly enchanter in town) is able to imbue the party's items with greater power (See Enchant Magic Item and other rituals). This is also usable with Inherent Bonuses. You can still give players magic items but you're mostly using them for their properties and item powers. Just keep an eye out for magic items who's powers and properties scale at higher levels. This method really helps with the kind of player who wants to keep his named weapon or armor, something they'll use for their entire career.

  • Items that gain more power - Does your player use a Flaming Longsword but also want a Staggering weapon or perhaps just want's the weapon he's had since level 3 to do more at level 16? Consider giving him a second magic weapon, something that just has a property or daily item power and roll it into one weapon. You could classify this item as "rare" or artifact level even. Boons work well to accomplish this goal as well. Just keep an eye out for breakable combinations (like stacking Staggering on a Lightning damage weapon). This will also let you and the player experience some of the magic items that don't see much play because they're considered subpar to other weapons. (In my examples the Tiefling was a Fighter, generally not a good race/class combo, so the Flaming Longsword and feats helped bridge that gap. Thing is it also took away other options. Giving the player minor bonuses and other extra powers allowed him to feel like his PC wasn't trapped and allowed him to explore other options.)


The game can already encompass the vision you have for it, you just need to use a little imagination. The mechanics are just the gears in the background making things run smoothly.
So, the things about Kratos I want to see in the fighter:



  • He can pick up nearly any weapon of any stripe and wield it expertly, almost straight off the bat.  Fighters should have the Versatile Weaponmaster class feature, letting them spend 1 hour practicing with any weapon to switch their weapon-specific feats (proficiency, Weapon Focus, Expertise, etc.) to that weapon.  Golfbagging should be an available weapon style, and not hindered by the magic item economy making it impossible to keep more than one weapon on par - to do this, Legacy Item rules should replace the normal magic coatrack setup, or at minimum we should see Inherent Bonuses be a core rule.

  • When fighting with these various weapons, the attacks he uses and the overall way he moves and fights change dramatically.  Martial powers in general should be divided by weapon or school of fighting, not by class, so that an axe or hammer fighter plays in an entirely different way from a swordmaster.  This was promised in 4E's Races and Classes preview booklet but never delivered upon.

  • He can move with superhuman athleticism, jumping large chasms and climbing impossible cliffs.  At his strongest he can directly challenge the gods in physical combat.  As levels increase all characters should cease to be bound by the laws of physics, and for their highest chunk of play should be considered demigods.

  • While not strictly educated, he is cunning and charismatic.  Fighters should be able to focus on abilities other than the physical attributes.  Either Intelligence or Wisdom should inform their class features - while 4E did this, it generally made it superior to focus on Dexterity or Constitution as the secondary stat.  Being a fighter who is both strong and smart should be a viable option, and fighters should have a reasonable number of skills so that outside of combat they still have something to offer.  It should be possible to play the courtly knight or dashing swashbuckler using the fighter by taking different abilities and skills.  History, Perception, and Insight should be on their class skill list at a minimum.

The problem comes if we want to allow extreme PC fighters into the same system as PC wizards who can kill them with a thought from miles away before the fighter wakes up in the morning, which is what some wizard players want.



There is nothing wrong with wizards this powerful just not as PC, of course if they exist PCs should be able to get there to but not till like lvl 30 or beyond(basicly once your to the point of retiring the character) because if you have that much power why in the world are you adventuring you can kill all your enemies and aquire anything you could ever want or need with out even getting out of bed in the morning.
The problem comes if we want to allow extreme PC fighters into the same system as PC wizards who can kill them with a thought from miles away before the fighter wakes up in the morning, which is what some wizard players want.



There is nothing wrong with wizards this powerful just not as PC, of course if they exist PCs should be able to get there to but not till like lvl 30 or beyond(basicly once your to the point of retiring the character)



Well apply contagion limits and require a noteable piece of your target for long ranged things Ie require the prelim involving bloody the demon then use that fresh ingredient in a long range spell.. make things interesting even for the highly powerful... then aquring the fresh connection becomes a story... not a blow out.

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I much prefer being the guy up the front with the big sword/axe/hammer smashing faces.  I want to play a Conan, Aragorn, Cu Cuchlain, King Arthur, Beowulf, etc.

What disillusioned me so much with 3ed was that if I did play one of those, I was outshadowed be evern a moderatly optimised spell caster - and I saw it both as a player and DM.  One game I ran had a player playing a druid for the first time, so it wasn't entirely optimised.  His trick?  Summon up bears and let them go grapple the enemy.  It got worse when he got things like animal growth - when dragons are running in fear from summoned bears lest they be grappled you know thigns are going wrong. We had another player in that group whose standard character carried a big weapon and charges.  He ended up rolling for one of the summoned bears as he was that far outshadowed, just to be involved in fights.

Despite its (many) flaws, at least 4E allowed those type of characters.

But 4E has soured on so I've been looking for a recplacement - and if necessary I'll just have to make my own system.
I don't know who this Kratos bloke is, but I want high-level fighters to contribute to the adventure equally with the other classes--including wizards.

Gideon, my first character--back in Mentzer edition basic D&D--was a fighter with a flaming two-handed sword who laid the smack down with the best of 'em. He got transferred over to 1e, and is now a friendly NPC in my current 3.5e Greyhawk campaign.

I want to ensure that I can convert Gideon over to 5e and that he'll stay true to the character that I played way beck when I was 12 and new to D&D, and that he'd be a worthwhile addition to a party should I choose to play him in 5e.
I don't know who this Kratos bloke is, but I want high-level fighters to contribute to the adventure equally with the other classes--including wizards.

Gideon, my first character--back in Mentzer edition basic D&D--was a fighter with a flaming two-handed sword who laid the smack down with the best of 'em. He got transferred over to 1e, and is now a friendly NPC in my current 3.5e Greyhawk campaign.

I want to ensure that I can convert Gideon over to 5e and that he'll stay true to the character that I played way beck when I was 12 and new to D&D, and that he'd be a worthwhile addition to a party should I choose to play him in 5e.



Azzy, what level was Gideon in Basic D&D and 3.5?

I think what we're getting at here is "at X level, how mighty should a Fighter be?"

 
Azzy, what level was Gideon in Basic D&D and 3.5?



29th in basic, but I toned him down to 14th in 1e and 3.5.
So, the things about Kratos I want to see in the fighter:



  • He can pick up nearly any weapon of any stripe and wield it expertly, almost straight off the bat.  Fighters should have the Versatile Weaponmaster class feature, letting them spend 1 hour practicing with any weapon to switch their weapon-specific feats (proficiency, Weapon Focus, Expertise, etc.) to that weapon.  Golfbagging should be an available weapon style, and not hindered by the magic item economy making it impossible to keep more than one weapon on par - to do this, Legacy Item rules should replace the normal magic coatrack setup, or at minimum we should see Inherent Bonuses be a core rule.



See Arena Fighter in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting. Also the Weapon Talent fighter (or Weaponmaster? I can't remember what silly name they changed things to). The Arena Fighter specifically can use any weapon they aren't proficient in as a +2 weapon and apply any feat bonuses to attack and damage for weapon feats they already have. So if you have Heavy Blade Expertise and Weapon Focus (Heavy Blades) you apply those bonuses to the spork you just picked up. The Weapon Talent Fighter is only limited by wielding type, so as long as you're using a one-handed weapon, One-Handed Weapon Talent Fighters add their bonuses. Tempest and Battlerager Fighters also get bonuses by type (off-hand or hammer/axes/maces respectively) but those are more specialized, much like having a kit in 2e.




  • When fighting with these various weapons, the attacks he uses and the overall way he moves and fights change dramatically.  Martial powers in general should be divided by weapon or school of fighting, not by class, so that an axe or hammer fighter plays in an entirely different way from a swordmaster.  This was promised in 4E's Races and Classes preview booklet but never delivered upon.


4e Fighters could specialize by weapon. Rogues, Rangers, and Warlords also did to a lesser extent in that some powers required a weapon type. While I know folks like the idea of simply making a class from the Martial Power source and then choosing a feature that makes it less like D&D and more like GURPS. D&D at its core is a class based game. That said a sort of shared power pool would be interesting but I think feats and skill powers mostly cover that ground.




  • He can move with superhuman athleticism, jumping large chasms and climbing impossible cliffs.  At his strongest he can directly challenge the gods in physical combat.  As levels increase all characters should cease to be bound by the laws of physics, and for their highest chunk of play should be considered demigods.


Attributes and skills in 4e scale. Not sure what the issue is here.




  • While not strictly educated, he is cunning and charismatic.  Fighters should be able to focus on abilities other than the physical attributes.  Either Intelligence or Wisdom should inform their class features - while 4E did this, it generally made it superior to focus on Dexterity or Constitution as the secondary stat.  Being a fighter who is both strong and smart should be a viable option, and fighters should have a reasonable number of skills so that outside of combat they still have something to offer.  It should be possible to play the courtly knight or dashing swashbuckler using the fighter by taking different abilities and skills.  History, Perception, and Insight should be on their class skill list at a minimum.



Actually it's fairly common to find Strength/Wisdom fighters, or at least Fighters where Wisdom is the highest secondary stat. That said Intelligence and Charisma were basically total dump stats, to the point where any stat points used in those states were wasted (some builds could make use of Intimidate, but they only required training in the skill, not an investment in the Charisma stat). This is a section where I'd like to see a change for 5e. Charisma shouldn't only be used for Intimidate, and Fighters shouldn't be dumber than rocks. Investments in these "dump stats" should be rewarded in someway beyond simply having better skills or access to skill powers.
Awesomeologist: You seem to be under the misapprehension that 5th is going to be a patched version of 4e.

Things that exist in 4e won't necessarily exist in 5th, unless we make it clear that we really want to keep them, hence why people are listing things that already exist in 4e 
Complaints about the relative powerlevels of fighters vs wizards seem to get worse with 3E that with earlier editions.

I don't think the problem was that wizards could do more, except bypass defenses more easily.
Spell resistance stayted prety much as it was but wizards got spells and feats to help defeat it, so there were fewer (if any) creatures left that martial characters were better at defeating.
Also though fighters had poor saving thows at low levels they got more improvements and ended up with very good ones. That is, fighters became relatively more restance to magic as their level increased.

With 3.x fighters became very vulnerable to spells needing will saves. In the MIC a relatively cheap magic item was added that gave a bous to such saves and allowed a limited number of rerolls each day. That seemed to help a lot in the las campaign I ran.

From that experience I think giving all PCs above a certain level luck rerolls against SoD spells and having feats to add more rerolls and ways to use them would help a lot. Using 3.5 as a base, perhaps each PC gets a luck reroll every 5 levels, and the ability to reroll any failed save where the resut would be death or helplessness. They there could be feats such as one that gives an extra luck reroll and allows you to reroll any failed will save with a +4 on the reroll.

Awesomeologist: You seem to be under the misapprehension that 5th is going to be a patched version of 4e.

Things that exist in 4e won't necessarily exist in 5th, unless we make it clear that we really want to keep them, hence why people are listing things that already exist in 4e 


Well I want to be sure that people don't unjustly say "I couldn't do X in 4e" when in fact you could. Lots of folks folks have blinders on about 4e and simply refuse to see it as D&D because the mechanics took a giant leap into the 21st century.

I'm also hoping that 5e will be truly modular. So if someone wants to play a fighter who does nothing but hit with their sword they can play that type of fighter. But at the same time I would hope that one can add the layer of Fighters who use a particular build style, can pick powers that represent their sword swinging, and still do things like mark and control the front line.

It's probably wishful thinking. My biggest fear is that 5e will be a step backwards and return to the times where playing anything but a Wizard or Cleric meant you were just a sack of hit points that could talk. 4e put classes on an equal footing and let every player feel like a hero. I hope 5e keeps that.
First, I have to admit I don't know who this Kratos guy is. Second, this is going to be a little off-topic from the other posts.

When I picture a high-level fighter, I picture a guy who does incredible deed but still used the same sword and armor he started with, if it's appropriate to the story. Or perhaps he will only wear the armor he received when he (helped) rescue the temple and was named its defender. What I don't see is a guy who is wearing a mismatch of armor and gear recently torn off of corpses, and the gear changing every week.

Is this what the community sees? I don't know. How should we make the game that easily encompasses this vision? I don't know. 


This is one of those abstract problems people have for whatever reason with 4e, although it's no different than what came before in other editions. 4e just places a higher value on magic items as a way of customizing your character, which is why the game recommends wish lists for items as opposed to gaining random items that may be of little or no value to the player. I remember 2e games where I maybe only ever had 2-3 magic items at any given time (not including potions and scrolls), where as with 4e my characters will often have 6-8 magic items which i don't even blink an eye at.

As a DM you don't have to give out a hodge-podge of items to your party, and as a player you can describe your equipment however you please.

Here's a few examples on how to make this work from my own campaigns and adventures:
(NOTE: None of these ideas are new or original)


  • The Hero seeks out specific items - It's always exciting to go on a quest to claim the Sword of a Thousand Truths. If your players give you a wish list of items make part of the adventure or campaign an actual goal to find these mystical items. Does the Tiefling want a Flaming Longsword called "Hellbringer"? Not a problem. Perhaps he knows that the evil Efreeti lord they're on a quest to deal happens to have one in his armory, something he took from a former hero or perhaps even someone from the Tiefling's past (former master, grandfather, ancient family sword, etc). Commonly requested items such as Iron Armbands of Power should be easily found on recently slain brutes. You're likely to have at least 2-3 party members who want them anyways.

  • Items level up with the player - Sometimes players go for a particular build and are happy with what they have. If the Tiefling has his family's ancient Flaming longsword just level the item up at appropriate times. You can easily tie this into the story too. Upon killing the evil necromancer the heroes find the dark shard that was the source of BBEG's power. The fighter smashes it to pieces or perhaps the Wizard is able to syphon off it's power. With the broken shards or syphoned power the wizard (or a friendly enchanter in town) is able to imbue the party's items with greater power (See Enchant Magic Item and other rituals). This is also usable with Inherent Bonuses. You can still give players magic items but you're mostly using them for their properties and item powers. Just keep an eye out for magic items who's powers and properties scale at higher levels. This method really helps with the kind of player who wants to keep his named weapon or armor, something they'll use for their entire career.

  • Items that gain more power - Does your player use a Flaming Longsword but also want a Staggering weapon or perhaps just want's the weapon he's had since level 3 to do more at level 16? Consider giving him a second magic weapon, something that just has a property or daily item power and roll it into one weapon. You could classify this item as "rare" or artifact level even. Boons work well to accomplish this goal as well. Just keep an eye out for breakable combinations (like stacking Staggering on a Lightning damage weapon). This will also let you and the player experience some of the magic items that don't see much play because they're considered subpar to other weapons. (In my examples the Tiefling was a Fighter, generally not a good race/class combo, so the Flaming Longsword and feats helped bridge that gap. Thing is it also took away other options. Giving the player minor bonuses and other extra powers allowed him to feel like his PC wasn't trapped and allowed him to explore other options.)


The game can already encompass the vision you have for it, you just need to use a little imagination. The mechanics are just the gears in the background making things run smoothly.


Not only that basically this kind of stuff is recommended rather clearly in the DMG2
and I think the AV (I dont have it)...

So ofcourse it isnt at all possible in 4th edition no not all. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

well one of the things they said was they are balancing classes over the encounter not the round.

EX:  the Fighter would do something like 12 damage every round while a Wizard of the same 4 rounds dose 4, 4, 4, 20

So the intent seems that the fighter would be steady damage while the wizard would be more burst like.  By the end of the fight their damage output would be about the same.
well one of the things they said was they are balancing classes over the encounter not the round.

EX:  the Fighter would do something like 12 damage every round while a Wizard of the same 4 rounds dose 4, 4, 4, 20

So the intent seems that the fighter would be steady damage while the wizard would be more burst like.  By the end of the fight their damage output would be about the same.



Well, even in 3.x it was supposed to be like this... It did not end well...
well one of the things they said was they are balancing classes over the encounter not the round.

EX:  the Fighter would do something like 12 damage every round while a Wizard of the same 4 rounds dose 4, 4, 4, 20

So the intent seems that the fighter would be steady damage while the wizard would be more burst like.  By the end of the fight their damage output would be about the same.



Well, even in 3.x it was supposed to be like this... It did not end well...

Well they have indicated that spells won't be scaling with Caster Level.  So that Fireball spell is going to be 5d6 damage from level 5 to level 20. So that is part of the scaling done there.

Do you think 3.X would have been different if all the damage spells stayed fixed at their entry point?

or if they had worked more like how 3.X Psionics did.   Fireball Damage = 5D6 unless you put more power into it?


reconsider the 5E version in light of those questions

Do you think 3.X would have been different if all the damage spells stayed fixed at their entry point?

or if they had worked more like how 3.X Psionics did.   Fireball Damage = 5D6 unless you put more power into it?


reconsider the 5E version in light of those questions





The main problem is that in a 3.5-like magic system damage spells are strictly suboptimal. They tried to change this in 4E, but the general answer was that "it sucks because everything does damage now". Fixed damage is good for scaling and balancing, of course, but the problem is non-damaging spells and the way they are handled in the new edition.
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
Do you think 3.X would have been different if all the damage spells stayed fixed at their entry point?

or if they had worked more like how 3.X Psionics did.   Fireball Damage = 5D6 unless you put more power into it?


reconsider the 5E version in light of those questions





The main problem is that in a 3.5-like magic system damage spells are strictly suboptimal. They tried to change this in 4E, but the general answer was that "it sucks because everything does damage now". Fixed damage is good for scaling and balancing, of course, but the problem is non-damaging spells and the way they are handled in the new edition.



Exactly, if you are still doing damage after the 15th level, you are a bad, bad mage.

To be fair, damaging spells are still strictly superior to fighter attacks (explecially against multiple opponents), but the wizard shine with all utility/gamebreaking/SoD/buff spells. That's what those advocating for "Bring the old wizard back" want, not just "balanced damage over the course of the encounter". A wizard can easily crush enemies by destroying the ceiling even before entering the room.

How is the fighter supposed to compete with that? Expecially when the fighter MUST be held back by basic physics. Doing the Kratos stuff is all well and good (and easy to achieve in 4e, actually), but it's just impossible if we still must live by the paradigm "The fighter must feel dull and stupid, because the wizard must feel awesome and special".
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