Hit Points at 1st Level

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Looking at the hit point rules, you get your Constitution score at 1st level and then roll for every subsequent level up.

That seems a bit weird -- for example, it means that a Rogue 1/Fighter 1 could have more hit points than a Fighter 1/Rogue 1.

Would there be any problems with rolling for hit points at 1st level as well?
That does seem weird.  I agree.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Upon further thought, I think the hit dice need to be much more prevalent than they are now.

Fighters just simply don't have the toughness required as compared to the wizard, or even the rogue.  At first level, a Fighter, a Wizard, and a Rogue could have the same hitpoints.  The Rogue could very likely have the same AC, or even higher (but that's only due to monetary restrictions).  The Wizard will indeed have lower AC in all likelihood due to not being dex-primary, but it probably won't be far back due to being a very strong candidate for a secondary. 

So what makes the Fighter actually tougher, to be a front-line combatant?  Nothing that I can see yet.  In 4e, a large portion of the toughness came from the healing surge mechanic.  More surges and stronger surges.  So that 10 damage on a Fighter was way, way less of a big deal than 10 damage on the Wizard.  For a 1st level Wizard, that could be two surges, which is a full third of the Wizard's available daily resources.  For a 1st level Fighter, that could possibly be only a single surge, out of ten or more.

I see no mechanism yet to duplicate this.  The current passive healing processes are lightly based around max HP, but very weakly so.  The 2/day 10-minute break heals everyone the same, +lvl HP.  The short rest does depend on your hitpoints, so a fighter with more hp will heal more than a wizard with less, but that only happens once a day and without a significant gap in hitpoints, that's not really a viable benefit.

This makes it hard to be a Defender-role character, as any currently-presented class.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yeah, I'm trying to save balance feedback until after I've played the game at least once....


but I fully expect that I will be on board with this topic.  If you want front-line characters to soak damage, they need to have a way to do that.


My solution would be to add in a HD at first level, and also give a class feature to the front-liners that allows them to heal more during a breather or a short rest.  Not sure exactly how much more, but more.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Yeah, I'm trying to save balance feedback until after I've played the game at least once....


Fair criticism, but I think all of us have enough experience with these games to be able to theorycraft to a nontrivial degree.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yeah, I'm trying to save balance feedback until after I've played the game at least once....


Fair criticism, but I think all of us have enough experience with these games to be able to theorycraft to a nontrivial degree.



Oh, I agree.  I wasn't trying to criticize.  I was trying to say that I'm trying to hold onto most of it, but this particular topic seemed obvious enough to comment on already ;)
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Hey, if I didn't know the weaknesses in my own arguments how am I supposed to pre-empt challenges to them?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I think they are stuck between just giving HD for Hit Points and get people with 4 or 6 HP at level 1 and fall like flies, and giving HD + Constitution Score for Hit Points and have parties staying up much longer and needing to increase Monsters HP to balance out and get longet Combat lenght.


So Constitution straight seem to have been a conscious choice. But i deplore the bland nature of it as everyone starts on the same level as a base ground, but i guess its more balanced like that.

Like anki i want to see how it plays out, but i am thinking of adding bonus Hit Points built-in Classes at Level 1 i don't know

Exemple:  

Fighter Extra Hit Points: 3 

Cleric Extra Hit Points: 2  

Rogue Extra Hit Points: 1 

Wizard Extra Hit Points: 0

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

But that's just not going to be good enough. 

I want my sword&board Fighter to actually be tough, not just think I'm tough.  The current hitpoint mechanics just don't support that.

I miss healing surges already
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I would really like to see them use the Vitality/Wound system from Star Wars d20.

HP by Hit Die as per standard older editions of D&D, Wound points equal to your Con score.  Vitality points heal rapidly (char level per hour was the SWd20 method), Wound points heal slowly(1/day in SWd20).  Ordinary damage always goes to Vit, and when you're out, it starts going to Wound.


My favorite part about this system is how it appeals to everyone and how easy it is to adjust.  You can have Vit recovering quickly to simulate healing surges, and Wound recovering slowly to simulate prior editions' HP regeneration.  You can have extra-deadly attacks (like save-or-die style) go straight to Wound.  You always have an HP buffer for survival, but it's so much better to avoid taking wound damage that your Vit score feels important.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
I agree with Plaguescarred -- just Con score for starting hit points is pretty boring.

If you roll for hit points at level 1, there would be a wider range of starting values for hit points.  1d10 + 18 for a high-Con fighter would certainly be tougher in a mechanical sense than 1d4 + 8 for a scrawny wizard.

Based on previous editions, I imagine that there will be 1d12 hit die classes as well (barbarian, maybe).
But then again 28 HP at level 1 is probably too much.
What i think we need is to establish the Fighter as being capable of being though without having to have a high Constitution score.

The more i think about it, the more i believe the best would be instead to set minimum/maximum for Classes at level 1.


Exemple:

Fighter Minimum/Maximun Hit Points: 14/20   
Cleric Minimum/Maximun Hit Points: 12/16   
Rogue Minimum/Maximun Hit Points: 10/15   
WizardMinimum/Maximun Hit Points: 10/14   
 
  

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

There's also very little reason not to get Con as a high secondary in pretty much any build, though.

I dislike, to a degree, the removal of secondary stats for classes.  There are just general secondary benefits, such as Dex for AC or Con for HP.  Str for Clerics is an exception - I don't remember a Javelin of Fire lookalike to sub for an at-will thing to do, but that really more means that Clerics become dual-primary rather than primary-secondary.

And the result of not having a valid secondary score is that it's basically impossible for a Wizard to ever think that going 8 Con is a good idea.  Con, in particular, also will play a strong role as a defense against spell attacks via Con saving throws.  As it stands now just about any character with 8 con is just bad, rather than an appropriate and fair trade. 

Which leads to homogenization of hitpoint counts, even after we're rolling lots of dice.  After all, the difference between d10 and d4 is only 3 HP/level.  Which means at 10th level, the fighter is restoring a whopping 15 hitpoints more than the wizard if both have the same Con, which isn't even unreasonable.  A total of 45 hitpoints at level 10 could be enough, but somehow I doubt it.  It may be as few as two hits, over the course of the entire day.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
But then again 28 HP at level 1 is probably too much.

It's hard to say without playtesting.  At this point, I don't really have a good feel for how lethal combat is supposed to be at low levels.

But I definitely think that a hit die roll should be a component of level 1 hit points.

The more I think about this, the more I think my concern is best solved via the rest mechanics, and not the base hitpoint mechanics.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I don't know that the HP totals are really a big deal... At first level it has an impact but later on in the game fighters will still pull ahead of wizards.  After the first level or two, the fighter should generally have a better AC anyways so they become even more tankish.  It's also far more likely that the fighter will have a better constitution - both initially and while leveling and allocating stats increases.  I think you're right that they wanted a middle ground between CON + Roll and just the HP roll itself.  

Now that I'm thinking about it how about a compromise between multiple iterations of first level hit points...  You can start with 1/2 CON + MAX HD.  If we assume a fighter will likely have between a 12 and 14 constitution, this means they end up with 16-17 HP.  A wizard would likely end up with 11 HP or so assuming a 10 CON.  This means the fighter can soak about one more hit than the wizard at first level.