You know what I really dread about D&D Next/5E?

So I've been browsing around this forum (for the next iteration of D&D) for some time, getting a feel for it.  I've been wanting to make a thread, or comment in other threads, and get my voice out there.  I've been trying to get myself pumped up and amped for the playtest and let WotC and other players know my opinions on design and play experience.

But I just can't.

I read the threads, the posts, the comments, the back and forth, the tit for tat...and I just can't.

Why?

Because I can't go through it anymore.  I simply don't have the energy to post and justify all the good things 4e did design-wise over previous editions, and why they should remain in 5E.  I can't explain why the bad things from earlier editions that were cut from 4e shouldn't return.  I barely had enough energy to discuss and argue over Essentials, and that was with people WHO ACTUALLY LIKED 4TH EDITION!

I do not relish the idea of explaining YET AGAIN why Healing Surges are a great idea, why fluff should be mutable, while Save or Suck/Die should be avoided, etc etc etc.

I can't make that fight again.  D&D seems like it is on an enevitable regression to older editions, and I (and other like-minded individuals) will have to fight tooth and nail to keep what progress has been made available.  I simply can't get excited to jump into the flames/lion's den/pit of snakes again.

Especially when I have a metaphorical nice comfy bed of 4E to sleep in right here.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
and you know what foxface? it's a very comfortable bed. one that if 5th ed fails to surpass 4th ed for me (which i fully expect with all the rose-tinted glasses being given away and "good old days" being thrown around) i'm very much not going to sleep in that bed. 

i've discarded my previous beds (2nd, 3rd) because they were no longer comfortable. i see no reason to discard one that still allows for a highly restful and peaceful slumber.
It's not like 4e is perfect or anything.  I'm all for seeking to improve upon something, and progressing.

But I see all this crap about how Healing Surges need to go away, or Magic needs to be more open-ended, and I'm like "Really?"  You want to improve the Healing Surge mechanic?  Fine.  Want to make rituals better or more dynamic?  Knock yourself out. I've got suggestions, too.

But having to explain why having spells that obviated the need for skills is a bad thing in the long run?  Why the fighter was never a good meatshield in the first place?  Why balance is a good?  I went through that once already, back when 4e was new.  I can't go through it again.

I see Garth and Abdul and others "fighting the good fight", and I applaud them.  I've even hovered my mouse over the "Post Reply" button myself, ready to enter the fray....but I just sigh and shake my head and click the back button instead.

I'm tired.  This edition war vet is ready to lay down his shield and sword, and go to sleep.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
Oh yay..yet another thread that says 4e is god..and anything before sucks.

Well..what else can I expect?
Oh look, Stafir not standing for saying positive things about 4e.

Well...what else can we expect? An well supported and reasoned opinion? Nah, just getting angry because it's 4e.
Aye, captain; couldn't agree more. That's why I'm just sticking with the basics of, "I don't agree/I think you're wrong for many reasons," or just ignoring it altogether. My fight was finished with Essentials (love your sig, btw, and very much agree), but with this new fresh Hell...

Well, I guess old habits die hard. I know I rant too much or froth a bit here and there, but I'll be here for at least a little while longer, doing what I can.
Resident Logic Cannon

I see Garth and Abdul and others "fighting the good fight", and I applaud them.  I've even hovered my mouse over the "Post Reply" button myself, ready to enter the fray....but I just sigh and shake my head and click the back button instead.

I'm tired.  This edition war vet is ready to lay down his shield and sword, and go to sleep.


I've hit the back button a few times, too.  When I see some of the claims floating around, like these:
 But having to explain why having spells that obviated the need for skills is a bad thing in the long run?  Why the fighter was never a good meatshield in the first place?  Why balance is a good?  


I just stop and draw a blank for a moment.  I'm not even sure how to begin to try and bridge that gap.

Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
The thread could have easily been made without making lowblows to previous editions.  Talking 4e up is one thing..talking the other editions down is the problem .

I'm sorry all of you can't enjoy 4e without talking down other editions ^^.  But no reason to take it out on me when I just point it out.
It's not like 4e is perfect or anything.  I'm all for seeking to improve upon something, and progressing.

Oh yay..yet another thread that says 4e is god..and anything before sucks.

Well..what else can I expect?

Something here is at odds with Reality; Logic dictates the obvious answer.

EDIT: Editted for being a smarmy jerk.
Resident Logic Cannon
The thread could have easily been made without making lowblows to previous editions.  Talking 4e up is one thing..talking the other editions down is the problem .

I'm sorry all of you can't enjoy 4e without talking down other editions ^^.  But no reason to take it out on me when I just point it out.


Yes, because no one else on these Boards ever throws around statements that talk 4E down while discussing previous Editions. /sarcasm

Don't see you confronting them, though, do we?
Resident Logic Cannon
I love popsicles.
All that AND a bag of dice Baby!!!
I love popsicles.


Ugh, popsicles suck so much.  I don't know how you can love such a horrible snack.  ;)
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Lots of good stuff.



As much as we have argued in the past, I am in complete agreement with you here.

So often I have been tempted to post, and so often I have hit the back button instead.

I just don't have the energy or inclination to fight the edition war again.

Suffice it it say, to WotC, if 5E regresses instead of progresses, I will stick with 4E, thank you very much.

So much worry. I don't think it will be that big a deal either way. I am as happy playing AD&D, as 3.0, as I am playing Pathfinder, as I am playing 4E, as I am playing a White Wolf or Steve Jakson Game. It's a game and is all for fun. 

4E was a little rough with the slow combat and was pretty much unplayable out of the box for our gaming group; however, we made some major modifications to it and it worked fine. I don't know of anyone that played it out of the box, even in encounters games or conventions I attended. That's ok though, I don't know anyone that played AD&D or 3E out of the box either. Great gamemasters change the rules to best fit the gaming party, and that's just fine. 

I doubt I will play 5E as it is out of the box, but you can bet I'll buy the books and take some good ideas from it. I'm not worried; I've been through several of these edition changes and one more is not going to bother me. I'm sure the books will have things I like and things I hate, and I'm sure those things will be different things than other people like and hate.
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules. Attributed to Gary Gygax by Allan Varney in a sidebar to a review of the Amber Diceless Roleplaying Game
what has the tittle of this post got to do with the original OP ?
I'm glad its been hijacked by popsicles it's s sneaky NINJA thread. 
And this is why I have over 300 people on my ignore list.

Just block 'em, Fox.  There's no point in trying to argue with someone whose uninformed opinion is set in stone.  There's no point and they aren't worth it.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Oh yay..yet another thread that says 4e is god..and anything before sucks.

Well..what else can I expect?

The thread could have easily been made without making lowblows to previous editions.  Talking 4e up is one thing..talking the other editions down is the problem .

I'm sorry all of you can't enjoy 4e without talking down other editions ^^.  But no reason to take it out on me when I just point it out.



Excuse me, but WHUH?

Did I say 4e was "god", or perfect, or the bestest best thing that ever bested?  Did I say that everything prior sucks, like a thing that...that, um sucks...like, a lot...or something...where was I going with this?  Oh yeah!  Did I ever say the earlier editions have nothing of value?

Hold on a sec.  Lemme read through my two posts so far in this thread.  Waitaminnite...it might take me a while (two posts takes an awful long time to take in and fully digest (like a Christmas Ham)).

.
.
.
.
.
...

Yeah, having reviewed my posts, I'm going to call "shenanigans".

(Is the fire alive?  Is this the spirit of combat?  Dare I hoist my shield and blade again?) 
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
I'm trying to harbor an excitement for all that I hope 5th ed to be while realizing that some people really really like RNG based gameplay and finding loopholes to produce overpowered results.

I would like some real counter-play, something that could make the game competitive. Something that could present a challenge while letting me roleplay how stupid monsters can be (see goblins).

I want player choices rewarded and character builds to feel unique but not all encompassing of what a player is capable of.

But really, what I love about 4e is, I want to be able to build and sculpt what I need should the developers not get it exactly right.
FOXFACE/

once more unto the breach DEAR friends!
All that AND a bag of dice Baby!!!
<-- Rolls a D20, add's spot, - wisdom ..... Damn, where did that NINJA thread go ?
The thread could have easily been made without making lowblows to previous editions.  Talking 4e up is one thing..talking the other editions down is the problem .



What lowblows? These are legitimate complaints even from some 3.x players, and which Pathfinder attempted to adress to some degree (not enough for my purposes, but I applaud the fact that they even attempted to balance 3.5).



But having to explain why having spells that obviated the need for skills is a bad thing in the long run? 

Why the fighter was never a good meatshield in the first place?  

Why balance is a good?



All legitimate complaints, acknowledged by grognards and 4evengers alike. The difference is that the grognards like old D&D despite (or because of) these things, and the 4evengers are glad that these problems no longer exist (or have been reduced greatly). Unfortunately, the two positions are, apparently, unreconcilable, and this is why a 5E that attempts to cater to lovers of all editions is ultimately doomed to dismal failure.



(Is the fire alive?  Is this the spirit of combat?  Dare I hoist my shield and blade again?) 



Phrrrrrrrbbbt....

Nah, 'twas just gas. 
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.

(Is the fire alive?  Is this the spirit of combat?  Dare I hoist my shield and blade again?) 



Phrrrrrrrbbbt....

Nah, 'twas just gas. 


Nah, if you were just full of hot air, you'd still be posting.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
To the OP: Just play the D&D YOU love, and quit worrying about these dumb boards. I'm 44 and started playing with my Dad on the original rules. "Edition wars" as they progressed when I was a kid, were the "adults" making joking jabs at each other. Now with the internet, you get people who hide behind the keyboard and say whatever they want without any responsibility. Why get involved in that?

I'm a happy soul with 4e, but I too can be happy playing just about anything else. It's all about the gaming and having fun. Once people learn to stop arguing stupid points that do not change your life or enhance it one bit, maybe they'll learn how to have fun again.

--JD 
Why doesn't WotC instead of creating an entirely new edition expand on all editions before it?  Anyone who plays an edition other than the current one is basically stuck in a non-updated world.  I'm not a big fan of 4e and when I played 2nd ed it was alright but not my favorite.  I play in a 3.5 world and enjoy it.  I wish though that WotC would slowly update this version without creating power creep. 

They can create new editions all they want, however if they don't fit my groups playstyle like 4e did they aren't going to get any money out of us.  However if they have teams working on doing stuff on 4e books and fixing its issues while having other teams going through and fixing issues with every other edition thats great.  To be honest I don't want another edition, I want fixes and more options to the edition I play.
I'm kinda tired too, Foxy, of fighting the endless, ill-informed hate, but....the thing is that I didn't realize how much D&D meant to me until the day that they announced 5th Edition was coming out. The boards exploded, and the next day, I noticed myself being mad over some of the stuff that people posted about 4e.

That is when I noticed how much D&D meant to me. Sure, I could just live the rest of my existance in my 4e bubble, and ignore 5e, 6e, and whatever else comes out. But, the thought of just abandoning this nerdy hobby of mine, and letting people haul it back into the dark ages? I can't let that happen. 

But, good to know you're on the D&DN boards, even if you aren't posting. 

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.
Especially when I have a metaphorical nice comfy bed of 4E to sleep in right here.



Look, if 5e doesn't end up being the game you want, you can still play 4e... just like I still play 3.5.

That said, if you don't participate there is less chance that you will get something that you like--that's why I'm here, too.

I think the problem with a lot of posts on this forum is that people are still edition warring instead of trying to find common ground or ways to compromise. There's been a lot of misrepresentation on both sides of the fence and that doesn't contribute anything constructive. Each side has legitimate complaints--and we need to focus on those so that we can work towards something that's worthwhile for all of us. The "my way or the highway" approach that I'm seeing a lot of (on both sides) needs to to stop (though I know it's not going to) ad we need to look for solutions that are inclusive.
I'm kinda tired too, Foxy, of fighting the endless, ill-informed hate, but....the thing is that I didn't realize how much D&D meant to me until the day that they announced 5th Edition was coming out. The boards exploded, and the next day, I noticed myself being mad over some of the stuff that people posted about 4e.

That is when I noticed how much D&D meant to me. Sure, I could just live the rest of my existance in my 4e bubble, and ignore 5e, 6e, and whatever else comes out. But, the thought of just abandoning this nerdy hobby of mine, and letting people haul it back into the dark ages? I can't let that happen. 

But, good to know you're on the D&DN boards, even if you aren't posting. 



Ya see, that's the thing: I wasn't mad.  Due to life in Hong Kong and work and family and the lack of a regular game to keep D&D in the somewhat forefront of my mind, I hadn't been on the forums all that much when 5e was announced.  Just checking in periodically for Rule of 3 and L&L.  I found out about 5e from CNN.

And when I popped over here, read the articles and quickly browsed the forums, all I could really muster was an "Eh, sounds kinda like what I thought it was going to be".  I made a quick review of my own posts in various threads, back when L&L was being done by Mearls.  I had made some predictions and guesses, and I was more or less on the money.

So I'm like, "Yeah, looks like they're gonna do pretty much what I thought they were gonna do", and decided to wait for the playtest.

I'm going to playtest the crap out of this when I get the chance (figuratively and literally).  I've already got my U.S. crew ready for a PbP game, which should suffice for numbers and balance and fiddly bits.  But until then, I just can't get jazzed. 
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
I...could actually write an entire essay on the multifaceted flaws of both 3.5 and 4E, from almost every perspective (Simulationist/Narrative/Gamist being the Big 3, of course). In fact, the anger at how people do so (and often!) about 4E as of late has almost made me do it just about 3.5, though that of course wouldn't be very fair.

Still, whether I completely remove any variations of, "In my experience," just using pure mathematics and avoiding anything that is actually just nothing but pure preference...I'd still get flamed or end up fighting countless more battles, and the entire purpose of such a thing would be subverted. It just...doesn't feel worth it, so all I end up doing is reading some things I really enjoy around here, or responding to things I feel are very misleading or downright incorrect.

Resident Logic Cannon
Especially when I have a metaphorical nice comfy bed of 4E to sleep in right here.



Look, if 5e doesn't end up being the game you want, you can still play 4e... just like I still play 3.5.


Absolutely

That said, if you don't participate there is less chance that you will get something that you like--that's why I'm here, too.


Only too true.

I think the problem with a lot of posts on this forum is that people are still edition warring instead of trying to find common ground or ways to compromise. There's been a lot of misrepresentation on both sides of the fence and that doesn't contribute anything constructive. Each side has legitimate complaints--and we need to focus on those so that we can work towards something that's worthwhile for all of us. The "my way or the highway" approach that I'm seeing a lot of (on both sides) needs to to stop (though I know it's not going to) ad we need to look for solutions that are inclusive.


A worthy sentiment.  

You seem sane.  I have been called sane.  We should be friends. 
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.

I think the problem with a lot of posts on this forum is that people are still edition warring instead of trying to find common ground or ways to compromise. There's been a lot of misrepresentation on both sides of the fence and that doesn't contribute anything constructive. Each side has legitimate complaints--and we need to focus on those so that we can work towards something that's worthwhile for all of us. The "my way or the highway" approach that I'm seeing a lot of (on both sides) needs to to stop (though I know it's not going to) ad we need to look for solutions that are inclusive.



Sorry - I'm a forum lurker by nature, and I don't usually contribute, but this should be required reading before posting anything to the D&D Next forums. This is what it should be about, and I couldn't have put it better myself.

EDIT: A wild "g" found its way into my post. I have used an Opportunity Action to kill it and harvest XP. 
Foxface I feel the exact same from this side of the edition war. I have posted in a few threads trying to find a common ground, a starting place. I realized that 3.5 had several large flaws that needed to be fixed. I feel that 4th has several large flaws that need to be fixed. And I think that if we combine these two systems in some way we can come up with a system that works really well. And for the places that both editions have flaws we innovate. I don't know why this is so hard for the people of these boards to understand, but every thread becomes a flame war by page 10 and nothing productive comes out of it.

Crimson_Lancer: I have almost done the same thread. I just keep thinking if someone could explain all of the misconceptions between the two editions we will realize that there is room for working together. The editions have a lot of stuff in common we just need to recognize this and build from there. We can innovate our way out of this cardboard box we have put ourselves in.
Im sorry but ADEU is a French word for goodbye, not a combat system. You say, "Encounter Power" and I stop listening to you. [spoiler Have Played/Run] D&D 1st ed D&D 3.5 ed D&D 4th ed Shadowrun Star Wars SAGA Cyberpunk Interlock Unlimited Run.Net [/spoiler] I know my games, don't try to argue about them. [spoiler Alignment Explained] This is a very simple problem and I will outline it below. Their are two types of people Type 1: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "I am lawful good thus I must play lawful good" Type 2: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "My previous actions have made people and the gods view me as lawful good. The difference is subtle but it is the source of the misunderstanding. Alignment does not dictate how you play your character. All it does is tell you, the player, how the rest of the world views you, and your previous actions. Any future actions will be judged by their own merits. Say you're a baby eating pyromaniac. You are most likely chaotic evil. But one day you decide, "Hey all I really need is love." So you get a wife, have a kid, and get a kitten named Mr. Snook'ems. You become a member of the PTA and help build houses for the homeless. You are no longer chaotic evil. And just because you were once chaotic evil it does not mean that you have to stay chaotic evil. Alignment never dictates what you can do, it only says what you have done. Now that is cleared up here is a simple test. What is the alignment of... A Police officer: The average Citizen: A Vigilante: The answer is simple. The Police officer is lawful good. He uses the laws of the country and city to arrest people and make them pay their debt to society. The Citizen is Neutral good. He wants to live is a place that is Good and follows moral and ethical principle, but he sometimes finds the laws impedes him, and he wonders why we spend so much on poor people. The Vigilante is Chaotic Good. He wants to uphold the morals and ethics of society but finds that the bad guys often slip through the cracks in the law. He takes it upon himself to protect the people from these criminals. That is the basic breakdown of the good alignment axis. What needs to be remembered is that any one of these people can change alignments, easily. The Police officer could be bought off by a local gang, and suddenly he drops to lawful neutral. The average citizen might find that his neighbors dog is annoying, barking at night and keeping him up. So he poisons its food, now he is no longer good, he is stepping towards true neutral. Maybe the citizen really goes crazy also kills the neighbor, hello neutral evil. It is possible that the Vigilante realizes that the cops are actually doing a pretty good job and decides to become an officer himself, leaving his masked crime fighting days behind him. Now he is Lawful good. Your alignment is not carved in stone, it is malleable and will change to reflect your actions.[/spoiler]

A worthy sentiment.  

You seem sane.  I have been called sane.  We should be friends. 


This Azzy fellow seems on the level.  This one time, he and I had different preferences on something, and then we respected each other's opinions as valid.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.

A worthy sentiment.  

You seem sane.  I have been called sane.  We should be friends. 


This Azzy fellow seems on the level.  This one time, he and I had different preferences on something, and then we respected each other's opinions as valid.



I heart you, Pash.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.

A worthy sentiment.  

You seem sane.  I have been called sane.  We should be friends. 


This Azzy fellow seems on the level.  This one time, he and I had different preferences on something, and then we respected each other's opinions as valid.


"Pics or it didn't happen."
Resident Logic Cannon

"Pics or it didn't happen."


I offer you links

First.

and
Response.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
DAMN! Stop being nice to each other; without a war to fight, soldiers are forced to retire!
Resident Logic Cannon
speaking of FLAME wars; just went to the toilet.   DO NOT GO IN THERE


i can post a link if you like but i think you'll take me on my word


i'll describe it for you


JUMBACO! JUMBACO! JUMBACO!


hahaha         
All that AND a bag of dice Baby!!!
You seem sane.  I have been called sane.  We should be friends. 



You'd be the first to accuse be of being sane.  Did you let them live afterwards? Agreed!

EDIT: A wild "g" found its way into my post. I have used an Opportunity Action to kill it and harvest XP. 



Gah! I hate it when that happens.  At least you got the XP.

I don't know why this is so hard for the people of these boards to understand, but every thread becomes a flame war by page 10 and nothing productive comes out of it.



And when something procutive does come, it's promptly ignored.

This one time, he and I had different preferences on something, and then we respected each other's opinions as valid.



Sorry, I'll try not to let it happen again. Wink

Maybe, if we're all sneaking about it we might get something productive done without the edition warriors noticing. Or maybe I'm being too optimistic.
Hmmm...okay, so here's an idea that works around the CoC and could prevent the distractions (or ignoring of good ideas, which definitely happens all too often): maybe if we find the right Title and Topic for a Thread, we can just report anyone who detracts from it and get the posts deleted (as Off-Topic discussion is technically a reportable offense), allowing the useful discussion to continue. Of course, the Title and Topic would have to be very specific for something like that to work, but making the System here on the Boards work for us would be really nice for once...

Thoughts?
Resident Logic Cannon
New tag: [No Edition Warring]
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.