Do people still play with extra pts for single nation armies?

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Ive read on the forum some folks don't use this rule anymore. Since the revised cards came out maybe? Interested in doing a general poll to see whos for and against. Personally I view the extra pts as making up for a lack of versatiity. e.g. Italy + 10 pts. No AA gun, hvy artillery/tanks, bomber, paras etc.
No.  The nation bonus are outdated.  They either haven't been updated/given a real look at since the release of the Expanded Rules.  With the set releases up to Counter Offensive you can look and see some nations really don't need the bonuses/as much of the bonus.  Example Romania has been rounded out pretty well and has a pretty balance force.  Yet they are still give a +15 point bonus.
I think with the revised statcards the changes made in the "revised rules" (Platoon cards - nation bonuses) were aolished.

...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
Tks Richter/hey_yu. Can you site me a reference for this change? Or was it more of a ..... practice generally adopted?
I personally don't play with Expanded Rules and have issues with some of it's contents for gameplay.  However, I don't think the nation bonus has been removed from the Expanded Rules based on the Revised Cards.  The last errata was updated to specify nation bonuses for Finnish and Greek nations (introduce after the Expanded Rules).

www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/AAM_Upd...
IIRC (Huscarrl would know it definitely - sigh we miss you)  - the Greek and Finnish troops were introduced in North Arica and Early war - those sets were also part of the Revision.

There are NO nation limits for Early War and Counter offensive (new nations, Belgium) as those sets are considered to include all changes made by the revision. As there are no single nation bonuses for those new nations I think someone asked for them and Husvarl/Steve said that they (or was it M2A0?) somewhere that these bonuses are no longer part of the "main" rules.

Sorry I cant provide a link...
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
Actually it was platoons that the revision made moot. While totally optional the single nation bonus is still technically part of the game. I totally forgot we never made any rules for the new nations in Early War & Counter Offensive.

Single nation Croat really wouldn't work with only one unit, and Yugoslav Partisans are in the same boat with only two units. Was there any other nation besides Belgium that doesn't have a bonus point total?

When I have time I can look into figuring out what the bonus should be for the missing nations.
thank you for your time.  the small group I play with are trying to limit the bounes.  we thought since most of the nations were starting to balance out, we wouldn't need them as much.  you can houserule this for the next month, but the bottom line is you're going to mix the axis anyway.  since Italy will join forces with germany, the germans carry the italians...literally.  the british and americans balance out the needs for the minor allies as well.  We think russia suffers in airsupport and specialty pieces such as paratroopers, and flame throwers.

so, (sorry about the houserule) if 50% of your forces is a minor country, we don't offer the bonus.    It would be nice to see some updated information concerning the bonuses.

thank you!

   
The best thing about the expanded rules is the the ability to still cherry pick the individual rules that suite you and your opponent best. I find the Defensive fire rule and grazing fire to be particularily useful for Historical scenarios where the attacker tipically had a proponderance of numbers. With out such rules one must scew the historical ratios to balance points causing game play to loose it's intended thematic intent.

Minor nation balancing can get rather tricky when one is championing a competitive points build. The leg work has been done and posted several times on minor nation Foriegn Nation weapons and equipment employment. (I know we did a lot of digging early on to make the Chineese competitive.) As mentioned the last few sets have provided either specific or appropriate Proxies to bolster the minors. As some of the old lists are a bit long in the tooth a list of correct suplimental units would be a good idea to compliment or adjust any minor nation bonus.

GW
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P.S. My Italians recieve no bunus and can hold their own against any army build. I do proxy JU87bs and ocassional theater/scenaroi specific units when applicable.

GW
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Actually it was platoons that the revision made moot. While totally optional the single nation bonus is still technically part of the game. I totally forgot we never made any rules for the new nations in Early War & Counter Offensive.

Single nation Croat really wouldn't work with only one unit, and Yugoslav Partisans are in the same boat with only two units. Was there any other nation besides Belgium that doesn't have a bonus point total?

When I have time I can look into figuring out what the bonus should be for the missing nations.



Early War
Belgium (mentioned)
South Africa
Slovakia

Counter Offensive
Croatia
Jugo Partisans
New Zealand

I agree that Croatia and Partisan as nations are a little dull...

If you include SA and NZ into commonwealth (used same equipment x-pounders, Vickers, Bofors...) no bonus would be needed (have "only" 3 units)

Belgium has 4 units - Commander  + 2 Soldier types (one standard, I fast Bike) and a tank destroyer (actually quite good if you compare with German Equipment in 1939-1940) - difficult to play - no MG is biggest problem IMHO) - I allow them to use the French MG...

Slovakia: 5 units, 2 Tanks and a Tank destroyer - Fast Soldier and Standard Soldier - would need a MG and Commander to be "playable"... I usually allow them to use the Hungarian MG and Commader as their own...


M2A0/Grenze  -  any news about the game - will there be a Lae war expansion (or any other) and if yes - when (2012 - 2013 - later , maybe probably whatever)...

When will the "Product catalouge be updated (its now 2012 and the last version still says July-Dec 2011)?

Any bitz of info welcome...
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
RVM,

I sent some business traffic to WOTC again last week that included those questions. In the Reply I was told to expect contact from the individual that is picking up Brian Hearts duties in brand.

As soon as I know I will share what is releaseable.

GW
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Thanks Grenze - we know that you do what you can - I think the MORE we ask hereabouts the more info we will ultimately get. But its hard to find a balance between "being interested" and "being a nuisance" - hope we do not cross the border...
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
P.S. My Italians recieve no bunus and can hold their own against any army build. I do proxy JU87bs and ocassional theater/scenaroi specific units when applicable. GW

Don't the Italians have a tough time against heavy armor?  For example, KV-1.  Especially one backed up by a couple of T-70s to hunt Semovente 90/53?


Units from differing nationalities can appear in mixed armies in the following combinations:




Germany, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Italy, Croatia




Finland, Germany




Japan




Soviet Union, Yugoslavia




France, Belgium, United Kingdom




Nationalist China, United States, United Kingdom




Poland




Free Poland (units deployed after 1939), Free France (units deployed after 1940), United States,


Canada, Australia, , South Africa, United Kingdom, New Zealand




Greece, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand




Single-Nationality Armies:





(Expanded rules) An entirely Finnish army, Belgian army, Slovak army, or an entirely Greek army can be


built with 110 points.


An entirely Croatian army, or an entirely Yugoslav army can be built with 115 points

Thanks! That's nice and concise.
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Units from differing nationalities can appear in mixed armies in the following combinations:




Germany, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Italy, Croatia




Finland, Germany




Japan




Soviet Union, Yugoslavia




France, Belgium, United Kingdom




Nationalist China, United States, United Kingdom




Poland




Free Poland (units deployed after 1939), Free France (units deployed after 1940), United States,


Canada, Australia, , South Africa, United Kingdom, New Zealand




Greece, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand




Single-Nationality Armies:





(Expanded rules) An entirely Finnish army, Belgian army, Slovak army, or an entirely Greek army can be


built with 110 points.


An entirely Croatian army, or an entirely Yugoslav army can be built with 115 points




And wouldn't the Hungarian and Romanian troops rather fight each other and NOT the Soviets ;)
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
When the Soviet horde is approaching, Transylvania becomes a secondary issue.
When the Soviet horde is approaching, Transylvania becomes a secondary issue.



Erdely is NOT a secondary issue - We must defend it against the Walachians...
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
BTW - any official (semi official) news on the future of AAM and WAS?

How is the "official" response on Angels 20 sales ??

(IMHO Angels 20 is not beer and pretzel enough to be a long time sucess... - I like it but you cabn't play it casual...)
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
I resent traffic early last week RVM and got confirming contact and introductions back. No direct response to queries yet. I was told things have been hectic in the reorg but the are settling down and we can get back to a more regular dialog flow. Appologies were extented for previous messeges getting lost in sauce. I have no reason to believe it was insincere.

I also have some AH board game questions to tack on as well next.

GW
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Personal comment,

RVM, You don't think Angels 20 isn't beer and pretzely!? Wow! I have played several Air combat games in the past. Ever play "Air War"? It makes AAAF look like chutes and ladders lol.

GW
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I said "not enough".

Its certainly not one of the super detailed simulation games, but compared to the other AAM games it is starting at a more complex level...

Some examples:

altitude - keeping track of altitude is important, but not something that can be done easily (the clear stand with cllear numbers does not help (might paint a few stands and add height indicators ;)).

Facing/shooting at different angles = different numbers on the dice hit.

maneuver

in addition the need to maneuver each plane each round forces heightened attention (yep there are some markers for this)

If you forget to move a tank Infantry or even a ship thats just something that might influence the gane, but it simpoly can also be the result of a bad command decision...

Forgetting to move a plane is game altering...


In addition I think the game is too unforgiving of a bad move - not being able to shoot back or even to shoot at all due to a bad move on your part is usually game deciding ... with only up to 4 planes per side.

Those are some important game fact that makle me believe its a game that is not as lighthearted as the other AAM/WAS games...

I don't believe its a bad game (or I would not have bought a case ;))

I also think that this game does not offer the potential to buy multiple cases.

On comparison : I bought 5 cases of CO + a few boosters (and singles) - I still need many more CO units ;)

With only one rarity, only 31 sculpts and the limitzation to 4 planes (more would be difficult to handle)  I bought a starter, a case and a booster - but now I have all units I need to play a game with UK US and Germany (and Japan - though their planes are too fragile )

Hey I even can do a Japanese Chinese battle on even level (3 Zeros vs 2 P-40 + Abu)

And even Italy is (got a higher share on Italian planes than any other nation) offering a good selection (why don't they like France which got exactly ONE POOR unit ;)) 

I also think that the plane selection does not help to sell the game:

Its supposed to be a Battle of Britain (Early War) game, but we get the "better" US planes (P-40, F4F, P-51)  IMHO I would have left those (and the FW 190 s out for a "later" game) and have brought the Brewster Buffalo (many nations reprint possibility), - the P-40 should have been the best US plane in the game ;)) And there should have been more selection for the UK (only 1 Spitfire ! vs for example 3 different P-40s) - May I add that I like the P-40 :D

I still need some more planes - but the odds at getting them are not high enough to buy additional boosters - especiall as there are no uncommons and commons as side incentives (even if you don't draw a "Tiger" - you might get one of the desired uncommon units in a box or a nice common) I will try to get the few missing units by buying singles and doing a few trades... - That will make me t buy less than in the other games (where sometimes UC+C are THE chase pieces)

Thats why I believe that sales will be (in the long run) lower than AAM + WAS sales -
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...