The Ecology of the Grognard

The Ecology of the Grognard


My name is Rich and I’m a 41 year old gamer that’s played D&D since around eight years old.


When I was ten and started attending a gaming group at Chapman College in the city of Orange I met another 10 yr old kid named George who walked with a bit of a limp.


George would become my inseparable best friend, closer to me than a brother and George and I would spend almost every weekend for the next 20 years sitting across gaming tables from each other, most commonly playing Dungeons and Dragons.


In the year 2000 George’s childhood cancer (which had given him the original limp) returned and he eventually succumbed to it. Most of our old gaming group had dissolved with the kids and teens George and I spent most of our growing up with becoming adults and spreading out across the country chasing career dreams and families. I too began to travel.


It took a long while but eventually I got over George’s death and started gaming with a few new groups in the new towns I was visiting. It was different and it wasn’t easy dealing with all those memories and comparing how every group I played in seemed inferior to the core group I had grown up with. Playing D&D again, as it was our favorite game, was especially hard but I knew George wouldn’t want me to give up on something both of us truly loved just because of a little initial awkwardness.


I, like other fiends had moved around the country, when I eventually returned to California. All the places I had once lived and was once familiar with had changed.


The local gaming store where George and I had bought all our books, and tacked notices up about house games was now a dog grooming spa.  Most of the public gaming groups had also fallen off the map. Games Workshop stores seemed to have popped up everywhere but the stores solely dedicated to our role playing hobby and maybe comic books seemed to have all but disappeared.


But that was alright, D&D may have traveled on to a 3.5 game that was being sold in big box book stores and many things were different, but some things I knew just would never change. I’d always know what a cure light wounds spell did, what an appropriate encounter and treasure reward would be. In your 40’s watching the whole world change around you can be very distressing but D&D was something you could always count on… or so I thought.       


Now living in a smaller town 3.0 even 3.5 games were not easy to find, but when the 4th edition was to come out and talk of finally receiving a Virtual Table Top where soon maybe my original core group could gather if not around a dining room table but around our home computers had everyone excited. I decided to give it a whirl and joined up with a 4e group.


Though the other attendees and DM were very experienced like myself, it just wasn’t D&D. Almost everything had changed. After about two years the VTT was no where to be found, the wives of my former friends could rest assured there would be no return to weekend D&D gaming.


I had a 12th level Paladin, with a stack of divine powers and a filled back pack of magic items that a 25th level 3.0 character in my previous experience would ever come close to amassing. Nothing worked the same, and using innovation or out of the box thinking just wasn’t something the game supported as it was really a computer MMO pretending to be a table top RPG. If you had a problem and needed a solution, you argued about the rules and eventually rolled a die and that was about it.


Disgusted and feeling completely let down by my once trusted old hobby I swore I’d never play D&D again. That was until about two weeks ago when I heard 5th Edition was on its way, and it was intended to bring the older gamers like myself back to the dungeons to fight the dragons.


While on the forums somebody called me a “Grognard” and I had no idea what it meant.  I looked it up and here’s what I found…


Noun


grognard (plural grognards)



  1. An old soldier.

  2. (games, slang) Someone who enjoys      playing board      wargames,      particularly the counter-heavy strategy board wargames from the 1970s and      1980s.

  3. (games, slang) Someone who enjoys      playing previous      editions      of roleplaying games when new editions of the      game are available.[ quotations ▼]


  • “James is       such a grognard, he only plays the original edition of Dungeons       and Dragons.”


  • (computer      games, slang) Inside the computer game      development industry, a game fan who will buy every game released in a certain genre of      computer game (RTS,      or computer role-playing game, etc.).



  • [edit] French


    [edit] Etymology


    From grognard (“grumbler”), from grogner (“snarl, grunt, growl, grumble”) + -ard


    [edit] Noun


    grognard m. (plural grognards)



    1. an old veteran      soldier; specifically of the grenadiers      of the Imperial Guard (Grenadiers à Pied de la Garde Impériale); an old complaining      soldier


    [edit] References



    The Old Guard


    The Old Guard (French Vieille Garde) were the elite veteran elements of the Emperor Napoleon's Imperial Guard. As such it was the most prestigious formation in Napoleon's Grande Armée.


    The Old Guard was formed of veteran soldiers who had served Napoleon since his earliest campaigns.


    It is believed that Napoleon hand-selected members of his Old Guard based on physical traits, most notably above-average height. Their imposing stature was likely impressive to foes and allies alike. Serving in the army for several years as well as a citation for bravery were also taken into consideration when selecting troops into the Old Guard.


    There were four regiments of Old Guard infantry: the 1st Grenadiers, 2nd Grenadiers, 1st Chasseurs, and 2nd Chasseurs and belonged the Imperial Guard under Emperor Napoleon. Members of The Guard benefitted from a number of different privileges. The wages of individual soldiers in The Guard was considerably higher than any other military unit in Napoleon's Imperial Guard. Another privilege reserved only for the members of the Old Guard was the freedom to express their discontent freely: the Old Guard Grenadiers were known as les Grognards ("the Grumblers") because they openly complained about the petty troubles of military life. Some of the officers even did so in the presence of the Emperor knowing that the Old Guard's reputation commanded enough respect with Napoleon to allow itself such openess. Such behaviour was unique to the Old Guard and would have been severely punished were it engaged in by a member of any other unit.


    So there it was...  I was a snarling, grunting, growling, grumbling old solder engaged in a complaining activity that if I were not an old hand at D&D would not be tolerated. A guy who refused to play the new version of the game as I believed the old versions were much better. Yeah, I guess that seemed pretty on the money about who and what I am and how I feel about Dungeons and Dragons.


    As I read these posts about how many of the 4e gamers hope most of what they enjoy about their edition of the game is kept in 5e, I couldn’t feel more opposed. It is my deepest hope that D&D goes back to being what made it great in the first place, and returns to the mechanics that allowed a 2.0 character to be easily converted into a 3.5 character, so that this lost and nearly forgotten about 3.0 D&D player has a chance to be converted into wallet diving a 5.0 enthusiast.  


     


     


     

    "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
    I like you! You seem like a genuinely cool guy, and from having read your posts you seemed like good folk. After reading this post I'm shooting you off a friend request. Glad to have you here workshopping with us. Didn't know what the origins of the "grognard" term was--always figured it was more akin to "Grog-slurping troglodyte" but now that I know what it means, darned if I'm not really kind of proud of it.

    Big veteran grenadier who's been through the big fights and has some scars to tell stories about. Understands what he wants and doesn't suffer fools. I like that!

    Myself I'm a comparatively recent gamer--my first real group was in college, though I'm pushing 40 now myself. I started on a mix of Cyberpunk and Vampire games. So it was all about the psychodrama and dark moody noir--but the settings were just these really small little settings that weren't much more than the real world with a couple of different groups of badguys and maybe some nifty powers for your character.

    Then I got a hold of the 2nd edition Monster Manual--the white one with the black spine and the barber-shop quartet of monsters on the front cover--including a beholder which at the time was pretty close to the coolest thing I'd ever seen. Flipping through it there were just pages of ecology, culture and history for this vast swath of different creatures any of whom could be at the center of a story. It blew my mind. I was used to pretty small settings.

    Then I played the Baldur's Gate video game. It engrossed not only me, but my girlfriend (now my wife) to the point where she would pester me to go downstairs and play because she was dying to know what was going to happen. I was hooked--on Dungeons & Dragons, on Forgotten Realms, on everything.

    Now my kids game too and I've been blessed with about the best game group a guy could ask for--smart, deep dramatic folks who are good people as well as fine company. We've got our game on Wednesdays, and now a spinoff group with a different crowd of folks (who are turning out to be really pretty cool too) on Thursdays.

    Anyway man, if you ever find yourself in Pocatello ID-- we have lunch at 3, then go back to our place and game until 11. Open seat at our table for you, man.
    Now with 100% more Vorthos!
    An interesting and edustional post.  I agree with almost everything you have said.  The only thing I disagree with is saying that it is an MMO; to me 4E is more of a tactical board game than an MMO (For one thing MMO stands for 'Massively Multiplayer Online')... though I did see the similarities that caused your view very soon after buying the books, they were quite blatant.

    I hadn't actually heard the word 'grognard' before coming to these boards.  I'm guessing it is used more in the states than this side of the pond.  I assumed it was just something that someone had just made up so didn't bother looking for definition.  Thanks for the info. 

    Having said that I'm not sure what practical purpose the post actually has other than sayig that you want a return to older style D&D.  Wizards already know that a lot of people want that.  They need specifics.

    WOTC admitted 4e was designed to be easily interpretted by computers....and thus the WoW/MMO feel to it.  Three are just soooooo many people who make this analogy, there must be something to it...(PS - feels like an MMO to me too, having played DnD since the blue box and MMO's since the original Everquest)

    “Grognard” entered the wargaming world through Neopoleanics wargames. Then it found its way into RPGs.

    Baalbamoth, there are quite a number of people who still play older versions of D&D. Look up Pathfinder or the Hypertext SRD for 3e-style. Look up OSRIC for 1st edition AD&D style. Look up Labyrinth Lord for classic Basic/Expert style. And a lot of us also just grab the older books from eBay, second-hand bookstores, and other sources. (Luckily, I have keep all my older stuff.) And there’s more besides...that’s just an introduction. There are even some old school conventions. Anyway, just some pointers of things to look into until D&D Next is ready.

    As an old school fan myself, I’m looking forward to see where this D&D Next road goes.
    To the original Op - Nice post.  I'm am a grognard myself.  Have similar stories of gaming with friends all my life.  one of my gaming buddies died in a mishap...however they go, the games are just not the same...   (I miss you Greg!)


    I think you make one very very important point - Most of the transitions to a new edition had a relatively seemless way to morph a character from an early edition to the next.  Not so for 4e.  Fix that! and WOTC will be on to something.  
    Thankyou I had no idea what it meant either, though I assumed it meant something to do with grumbling and growling (here in eastern canada french is compulsory throughout primary education).

    (though apaprently I have learned assumptions are bad FYI "chick tract" is not derogatory slang for feminist propaganda Embarassed)
    (Yes I shamed myself, being the sibling of someone who had their precious books burned as a resuolt of that godawful terrible man and his hatespeech, and not even knowing his name. My only defense is I blocked it due to psychological trauma)
    Cool story, bro.
    Resident Logic Cannon
    I really like obscure words and phrases, Baalbamoth comes from one of these...

    www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/messag...

    Baal was lord of war and of the sky. Many titles were given to Baal by adding endings to his name. Some examples found in scripture are Baalbamoth = Lord of the high places, Baalzebub= Lord of those who fly, or, flit. Zebub is a Hebrew verb which means to flit from place to place.


    LOL lord of high places, well when George was going through his chemo treatments I was getting him medical marijuana since then I have worked pretty tirelessly as a medical marijuana activist, and Baalbamoth is a natural fit.


    About the posting,


    I just noticed that there are a lot of older guys coming back to D&D and figured my story wouldent be much diffrent than a lot of theirs. 

    One thing I think gets forgotten too much is that D&D is a lot more that just a Hasbro product or a table top game to many of us, were emotional about it and theres really good reasons for that. its part of "our" lives and subculture, revenge of the nerds was funny for us because it was a humorous take on the people and lives we were really living; and while we were getting picked on by jocks in ways this tollerant generation probably couldent imagine, ( I remember one poor geek who didnt know he was not to enter the varsity football locker room getting medical taped to the bench in the locker room and left overnight, something I doubt was even reported to the admins of the school at the time) D&D was one of our main points of escape, and we want it back.


    thanks to all the commenters (even those who may greatly disagree) and Rob thanks for the links, I'll check em out.             
    "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
    <---27 years old. Been playing since 2nd Ed AD&D. Thinks 4E's Mechanics are the best thing since THACO was removed. Very emotional on the subject, especially when it gets compared to MMORPGs (baseless, 3.5 is an MMORPG, etc). Never let jocks push him around in High School. Feels like DnD is just as much his as it is anyone else's of any other age.
    Resident Logic Cannon
    yep, thats why I put the quotes around "our" because really its "ours" (IE grognards) "theirs" and everyone elses, just saying I think there is some commonality to a lot the older guys and the way we view the game at least thats been my MOH observation.


    Didnt mean to be excluding anybody   
    "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
    I guess it comes down to, "who are they making 5e for?" because you can't please all the people all the time. If they make it with the old guard in mind, they risk alienating people like myself who 4e is the first edition they played and love it. 
    One thing I think gets forgotten too much is that D&D is a lot more that just a Hasbro product or a table top game to many of us, were emotional about it and theres really good reasons for that. its part of "our" lives and subculture, revenge of the nerds was funny for us because it was a humorous take on the people and lives we were really living; and while we were getting picked on by jocks in ways this tollerant generation probably couldent imagine, ( I remember one poor geek who didnt know he was not to enter the varsity football locker room getting medical taped to the bench in the locker room and left overnight, something I doubt was even reported to the admins of the school at the time) D&D was one of our main points of escape, and we want it back.


    Or maybe you're thinking that we aren't emotionally attached to our games too? The only reason I have the friends I do is because we all got together to play D&D, then later found our interests coincided outside the game and that we all basically liked the same crap. D&D isn't just a pastime for me, it's getting together with my best friends to catch up and play a game we love.

    Yeah, the game I love isn't the game you love. It's got just as much emotion tied to it though, it's just as much part of our geeky subculture, and we don't want it to go away.

    And I'm not sure what jocks did in your day, but when I was in school they'd corner you in the locker room and kick your face in. Or find you after school and take their time with it. In fact, I doubt the cruelties of those with a measure of power over their peers has really changed at all, so I don't see how it confers bragging rights unto your generation.
    I was a girl, so the locker thing didn't happen, instead I got vicious gossip, and since I was happy with my outcast status I just laughed at them. I was also fortunate enough to be slender and fit, so that helps in the realms of female.

    I do feel passionate about "my" game. However, my passion is derived from the need to spread gaming as far and wide as possible since I have personal observed proof of gaming being the alternative to substance abuse problems, criminal tendancies and bigotry. Less of those three are good. I'm a carebear, I would like people to enjoy things that aren't harmful to anyone and I see gaming as the best way to encourage it.

    So, I'm passionate about D&D.

    No I didn't like 4e because I saw it as an awful design decision that drove away people. No, I don't actually think those people had their lives destroyed by 4e, but I think that better design decisions could have restored/kept (depending on your version of 3e) D&D as a mainstay that was as common and accepted as breakfast cereal. I would like D&D to be encouraged as an alternative therapy, because honestly, I think it is, for a lot of people. I think it has amazing positive results above and beyond common methods.

    I also didn't like it for what it did to a setting I adored and some comments about how those who were (in my eyes) considered iconic creators of D&D were forced into making the changes they did, despite their arguements. I'm not so keen on force. At all. (No, I won't name names or post quotes, it's water under the bridge now, I'm stating my reasons, and I don't want to dredge up the past more than necessary)

    That all being said, I don't see why those who liked 4e and those who liked 3e, 2e or 1e or box set or ad&d have to pick one. Why can't we compromise? I mean, I thought that's what these forums were for? To open up to the widest possible audience to find an answer to that particular conundrum.

    I'm sure with all the fans, and all of us putting our heads together we can find some sort of solution.

    No, I don't think it'll please everyone, but I'll be happy with anywhere from 80% and up.
    I guess the real question will be where will they start 5e from? will 5e be 4e with a nod to 3.0? will 5e start as 3.0 with expansions to take it all the way to 4e if people want a more tatical form of game? Its supposed to be modular so we can expand on things so everyone will be happy but if its just 4.0 in a new package, adding alignments and taking away magic item malls I know a lot of people that wont be happy.  
    "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
    I did get bullied in elementary school, but in high school people liked me because I didn't give a "****", I'd joke around about how weird I was, and I was funny too. So I got along well and was liked by the cool kids, the hot girls, but I wasn't really one of them, I didn't go to parties and stuff, although I would have been welcome, I was just too messed up and geographically isolated. I didn't really play much d&d in high school accept on the computer for the same reason. Its why unlike many people who think rural is a better for raising kids, I found it horrible and isolating. I love cities, I like visiting the woods, but cities are awesome.

    Anyway I think the point is is no set of Gognards should be left out. They need to reach out to 4e, 3.xe, 2e, 1e both advanced and basic, and even off shoot games like Star Wars Saga, Pathfinder, and other games.

    Maybe you can please everyone, but if you can build something that appeals to 8o percent of each previous or alternative edition fanbase and allow them to play together, then,WOTC wins.

    For this to work we need to treat each other with respect, being willing to make sacrifices, and to respect peoples right to play the classes and races they want instead of telling them they're tastes shouldn't providied for.
    Can somebody give me a tl;dr for this? I totally lost interest like three sentences in.

    Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
    Can somebody give me a tl;dr for this? I totally lost interest like three sentences in.



    In one line:
    "People who like 4e are bad and their opinions are bad and useless, and you deserve no input on 5e."
    Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
    Oh gosh no! people who like 4e arent bad at all, they just like something that isnt D&D in my opinion, and their opinions about how 5e should develop are a lot different than my own, pretty much about as different as 3.0 was to 4.0.
    "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
    they just like something that isnt D&D in my opinion

    Do you have any idea how condescending that is? It's actually pretty insulting. Tell me, what's your favorite movie genre? Action? Romance? Horror? What if you were talking to somebody and they asked you what your favorite movie or movie genre was and after you told them they said "Haha, that's cute, but no seriously, I'm talking about real movies." That person would be a colossal ******. That's exactly how you sound when you say "It's fine if you like 4E, but that's not really D&D."

    Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
    *shrug*  He did say "in my opinion."  I think (and forgive me for putting words in your mouth) what Baalbamoth is trying to convey is that he felt like 4e had changed some elements of the game that, to him, had made it feel drastically different from the game he grew up playing.  While many of us do not have that problem, I can certainly understand how someone might.  I would wager that perhaps you were more disappointed with the game you played rather than the system you played it on, though...  I have played 4ed games that felt very boardgamey indeed, and I have played 4ed games where session after session has gone by without a single dice roll because we've been so embroiled in the politics of the world. 
    It covers all spectrums, just like every version of DND ever, but admittedly I'd feel like the "default" where 4e lands is more combat/tactics heavy than some editions.

    In particular, he noted the power level of his character and the amount of magic items he had amassed.  While powers are granted by the system and thus this is definitely a valid point to level, the magic item thing is definitely game dependent.  Once again, default 4e rules will land you more magic items than previous editions, but they are also significantly less powerful than the artifacts of olden days.  However, just like all things in D&D, its purely up to your DM. 

    For a great 4e supplement that treats magic items well, I recommend you check out Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium, probably one of my favorite D&D related books of all time.
    they just like something that isnt D&D in my opinion

    Do you have any idea how condescending that is? It's actually pretty insulting. Tell me, what's your favorite movie genre? Action? Romance? Horror? What if you were talking to somebody and they asked you what your favorite movie or movie genre was and after you told them they said "Haha, that's cute, but no seriously, I'm talking about real movies." That person would be a colossal ******. That's exactly how you sound when you say "It's fine if you like 4E, but that's not really D&D."



    [Leaving aside whether his opinion is justified or not]

    No... its more like saying the the Pierce Brosnan James Bond weren't real James Bond films.  He sin't saying that 4E isn't a real game.

    It is the difference between a name and a medium.

    medium:  game
    genre: rpg
    name: D&D

    medium: film
    genre: spy
    name: James Bond

    Do you see what I mean?
    *shrug*  He did say "in my opinion."

    That doesn't make it any less condescending.

    I think (and forgive me for putting words in your mouth) what Baalbamoth is trying to convey is that he felt like 4e had changed some elements of the game that, to him, had made it feel drastically different from the game he grew up playing.

    Then just say that. Saying one version of D&D feels very different from what you're used to or enjoy is one thing. Saying that it's not D&D is removing ligitimacy not just from the version but more importantly (and more insultingly) from the players that do enjoy it.

    No... its more like saying the the Pierce Brosnan James Bond weren't real James Bond films.

    I don't know what that is, so I don't know what you're talking about.

    Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
    *shrug*  He did say "in my opinion."

    That doesn't make it any less condescending.



    I don't see the condescention you're seeing. Mayhaps you're reading is different than what he meant, and, obviously, different than how I read it. Perhaps you're being too sensitive about it? This is the internet. Don't let people on forums get you all riled up. It's bad for the blood pressure. Tongue Out

    I don't see the condescention you're seeing.

    "Who's your favorite author?"
    "I really like Agatha Christie."
    "No, I mean like a real author."

    "What kinds of videogames do you like?"
    "Well, I really like the Sims."
    "Yeah, but I mean like real videogames."

    "You like zombie movies? Cool, what's your favorite?
    "Oh, I liked 28 Days Later a lot!"
    "It was all right, but come on, it wasn't really a zombie movie."

    "What edition of D&D do you play?"
    "I like to play 4th edition."
    "That's cool, but it's not really D&D."

    You don't see how those things are condescending?

    Mayhaps you're reading is different than what he meant, and, obviously, different than how I read it.

    I'm not saying that he meant for it to be condescending or that he realized that it was condescending. I'm just saying that it is condescending.

    Perhaps you're being too sensitive about it?

    There's probably nothing more condescending than telling somebody they're being "too sensitive" about something.

    Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
    *shrug*  He did say "in my opinion."

    That doesn't make it any less condescending.



    I don't see the condescention you're seeing. Mayhaps you're reading is different than what he meant, and, obviously, different than how I read it. Perhaps you're being too sensitive about it? This is the internet. Don't let people on forums get you all riled up. It's bad for the blood pressure. 




    It's a poor choice of words at best. Mostly because it's establishing a false hierarchy of what is real (therefore the perceived better) and what is, by association, false. Telling someone who loves 4th that their game isn't the real D&D is telling them that it's fake, false, a pretender. And while you are certainly free to feel that way, be aware that saying that is quite insulting and others will take it as an insult.

    What's more, he should be well aware it's an insult given how poorly people who like 4th react to that assertion, but he still makes the claim anyway.

    I'm really not that bothered by it, but I agree with C_C. It is in very poor taste.
    I was a little confused by your post, but it seems that you haven't played with your old mates in a long time? You have been playing 4e with new members (not new players, but other people)? If that is incorrect, then what I'm about to say will not be relevant, but I am going to operate under that assumption. Further, I'm not trying to minimize your opinion, I'm more just relating it to my own experiences.

    I feel like it is extremely difficult to separate out "the good times we had" from either the system of the friends that were involved. Rather, to put a finer point on it, I think that the people you play with are enormously more important than the system when it comes to how fond your memories are. That isn't to say that a system makes no difference, but the shared experiences you have with a group can greatly enchance your future experiences.

    The reason I am giving this preface is to lead into a similar story of my own. I started much later in life and much later in DnD than yourself. I started in college with 3.0/3.5 dnd. It was my first experience with any table top gaming, though I had been interested in high school, I just never had the chance. That group of people evolved and we have since become a very tight-knit group. Similar to your experience, many of us moved apart as we became full-fledged adults. DnD 4e came out right before we moved apart, and we tried one campaign together as sort of a last hurrah.

    I had some initial complaints about 4e, mostly about how there were too few choices and too few ways to customize yourself. Two wizards would feel too much the same. However, I felt like that would be largely solved with some time and source material (and in my opinion it was). However, my salient point is that my first outing with 4e was with my close group of friends that I had learned the ropes of DnD with. We had a great campaign and I played what is still one of my favorite characters I have ever played. There were some areas where the rules didn't cover, but we certainly didn't argue about it and then just get frustrated and roll; we handled it pretty much the same as we did in 3e- the we just discussed what seemed fair, and did it with the DM as the ultimate arbiter. We role-played just fine, contrary to what many said about the system not allowing it. We had a lot of fun, and I uniquely had fun with the ability to play non-casters and not get completely outclassed.

    Fast forward a year and a half. My friends had all moved away. I still had some other long-time friends in my area because I had moved back to where I grew up as had many others. We got together and decided to play some 4e together. It was their first time table-top gaming as well. After playing for quite awhile (about a year), our group just wasn't working out. Our combats took too long. There was very little role playing. People just didn't invest in their characters all that much. It started feeling just like a board game, or if you must, an MMO (though I deplore the comparison for a variety of reasons I won't get into). I was pretty much ready to give up.

    Many of the complaints I heard about 4e kind of resonated with my experience. From a design perspective (which is something I always think about in both tabletop and video games), I liked 4e. I felt like although there were some things I didn't like, 4e was overall a solid system in concept. It was overall well balanced, preventing the classic feelings of uselessness that accompanied 3e. With the introduction of hybrids and essentials classes there was a much greater variety of options and customizations while still maintainging relative balance. Despite that, it felt like a board game. Our group dissolved on good terms, all agreeing that we just weren't having that much fun with the actual DnD part, but we still love hanging out. So now we just hang out (though less often) and have a great time.

    About 7 months ago, two of my original group moved over to where I live, one of them actually moving in with me. Jaded though I was, I really wanted to give DnD another shot with this group. Having played now every week for 7 months again I'm having an absolute blast. I'm probably having some of the most fun DnD of my life. There's is quite a bit of RP going on and we love our characters. We aren't having any issues with out of combat rules, or lack thereof. We certainly have had sessions with no combat, and they have been some of the most fun, but when we do have combat we enjoy the tactical nature. Now my analysis of the design is feeling great to this experience; our DM doesn't have to worry about balance, we cooperate very well to tell a great story and don't have rules conflicts, etc. 

    I like 4e. There are definitely issues I have with it, or failed ideas, but the state of DnD 4e at this point is something I like and feel like it still has plenty of potential, but it just won't see it. I like that  I can play a character and not feel like I'm totally gimped for it. After all, at its core, DnD is a game, and I just plain don't want to play something that is crap just because I think its sounds cool. That just isn't fun for me. I understand that isn't a problem for some people, but that just doesn't seem like much of a game (again, to me). For me, I enjoyed playing 3.X despite it's rules and balance because it was really about having amazing adventures in our minds with my friends. At the heart of the matter, I think that there are going to be some enormous hurdles for 5e to overcome, and I don't truly think they can pull off what they are claiming and have it work out. Cynicism aside, I guess my point is that I really hope that you can find peace with 5e. DnD has meant a lot of things to a lot of people, and in my experience, nothing can ever truly bring back what your first (or best) group had other than simply playing with them more.
    A note to all who think I am being aggressive or angry- 99% of the time, I do not intend to be. I apologize if you think I am attacking you, odds are very strong that I am not. The only exceptions are when people become extremely uncivil to me, and even then I usually ignore them. I think it is very obvious when I am really mad; if I just seem generally abrasive, it is a reflection of my thought process rather than a state of emotion. I have the greatest respect for those who can debate rationally, even if we come to different conclusions. I am Blue/White
    I am Blue/White
    Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
    Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
    I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
    If you take a Smart Car and strech it out as long as the longest strech limo, give it lifted monster truck mud tires and slap on a nitro fueled 454 engine... is it still a Smart Car?

    my answer is NO it is not a smart car, its a heck of a lot more like a ford f-1 pick up... but whatever it is it is not a Smart Car anymore, it has changed too much to still be considered a "real" Smart Car. 

    is that condescention?
      
    IF somebody says "well it says smart car on the back so you have to accept that it is a real smart car" 

    and I say

    "no, in my opinion you cant call that a real Smart Car anymore." 

    is that condescention?


    X3nth- read all of it, I dont expect that anything can completely replace the expirences I had with my old group and childhood friends growing up, I dont even try to "better than" those days, it was a diffrent time/world/game etc. that said I have had great expirences playing with other groups of gamers with anything but 4e, but the core mechanics to me regarding 4e were so greatly limiting, so alien to my previous expirences with any RPG system (And I tried most, gurps, hero, deadlands, arduin, tunnels and trolls, gosh pretty much everything) that I dont enjoy the 4e game.    
    "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
    It's more like someone who appreciates cheddar telling a brie fan that what they are eating is not cheese.

    D&D is many things to many people, and really the name implies it. Some folks focus on the dungeon aspect, others focus on the dragons aspect. 4E arguably focuses more on dealing with super-intelligent lizards and less on poking things with a ten foot pole, but all editions give you access to both scenarios.
    Fire Blog Control, Change, and Chaos: The Elemental Power Source Elemental Heroes Example Classes Xaosmith Exulter Chaos Bringer Director Elemental Heroes: Looking Back - Class and Story Elemental Heroes: Complete Class Beta - The Xaosmith (January 16, 2012) Elemental Heroes: Complete Class Beta - The Harbinger (May 16, 2012) Check out my Elemental Heroes blog series and help me develop four unique elemental classes.

    X3nth- read all of it, I dont expect that anything can completely replace the expirences I had with my old group and childhood friends growing up, I dont even try to "better than" those days, it was a diffrent time/world/game etc. that said I have had great expirences playing with other groups of gamers with anything but 4e, but the core mechanics to me regarding 4e were so greatly limiting, so alien to my previous expirences with any RPG system (And I tried most, gurps, hero, deadlands, arduin, tunnels and trolls, gosh pretty much everything) that I dont enjoy the 4e game.    



    Well, that's fair enough. I guess that really highlights my point though that 5e really has its work cut out for it. I can't really go back to 3.5 any more.  I just plain can't see past the parts I hated mechanically, and my group does a great job of telling a fun, epic, narrativist game with 4e just as well as any other. I'm sad to say that I expect the game to move somehwere that I won't like, just like 4e did for many of the grognards (no disrespect intended). Like I said, it's a damn tough position for WotC to be in.
    A note to all who think I am being aggressive or angry- 99% of the time, I do not intend to be. I apologize if you think I am attacking you, odds are very strong that I am not. The only exceptions are when people become extremely uncivil to me, and even then I usually ignore them. I think it is very obvious when I am really mad; if I just seem generally abrasive, it is a reflection of my thought process rather than a state of emotion. I have the greatest respect for those who can debate rationally, even if we come to different conclusions. I am Blue/White
    I am Blue/White
    Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
    Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
    I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
    I understand incenjucar that is what crimson is trying to say, but that wasnt my point.


    4e was a game, lots of people love it. I'm not saying 4e isnt a game.


    there is role playing in 4e, so I think you also have to accept it is a "role playing game" 


    but the elements of a role playing game that define "to me" what D&D is... are not present in 4e because 4e changed so greatly in comparison to what was traditional D&D from 1.0-3.5 for what... 30 years of the game's 40+ year history. 


    how much can you change something before you must call it something else...

    answer: as much as you want, as long as you own it you can call a streched limo monstertruck a smart car.         

    How much can you change something before other people must call it something else?

    Answer: depends on the person... to me 3.5 had enough of what made D&D D&D still in it to allow it to still be considered D&D "by me." 4.0 didnt. Thats all im saying and theres no intent to be condecending about it.    


    and yeah... its a really tough place for Monte to be in especially.  
    "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
    Xth Edition is a Fantasy Roleplaying Game where you can investigate dungeons, disable traps, fight (or flee from) dragons, rescue princesses, and so forth.

    There are different methods of getting to those goals, but the goals remain the same.

    For me, 4E has gotten to what I had to struggle to get out of 2E and 3E. It is more D&D to some people that 1E will ever be, much like a beta demo for a game cannot compare to the game itself.

    We can all accept that some ASPECTS of D&D are more important to you, and that you feel these are lacking in 4E, but people can play the exact same edition very very differently.
    Fire Blog Control, Change, and Chaos: The Elemental Power Source Elemental Heroes Example Classes Xaosmith Exulter Chaos Bringer Director Elemental Heroes: Looking Back - Class and Story Elemental Heroes: Complete Class Beta - The Xaosmith (January 16, 2012) Elemental Heroes: Complete Class Beta - The Harbinger (May 16, 2012) Check out my Elemental Heroes blog series and help me develop four unique elemental classes.
    Howdy folks,

    I want to step in for a moment and ask everyone to consider something.

    What defines D&D is going to be different from person to person, based on their personal experiences and what editions they have played.  For most folks, D&D is defined by either the edition they started with or the edition they had the most fun with.

    Therefore, whether you put "IMO" in front of your statement or not, saying to someone that their favorite edition isn't "real D&D" is demeaning to them and their experiences.

    Please try to remember that going forward.

    Thanks.

    All around helpful simian

    theres an interesting distinction to make there...


    I can say I think Warhammer Fantasy Role Playing Game more closely mirrors 3.0 than 4.0 mirrors 3.0 (WHFR had rolled stats, magic items not linked to leveling, no abilities that shifted or moved monsters etc) but if I say 4.0 is in my opinion not real D&D people are rightfully offended....   


    Again Interesting...  
    "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
    I can understand how you'd feel that way specifically, Baalbamoth. Many of the things everyone took for granted in every previous Edition were removed; hence, immersion is ruined, the game feels stale and dull, and it's all just a bunch of arbitary numbers and weird cards.

    I don't miss those things. I can make my Character True Neutral if I want him to be; it doesn't do anything to the System. I can make him a Tailor, a Baker, or a Candlestick Maker; it doesn't affect the System. These kinds of things I have no problem with letting the DM decide if I get a bonus from in a random scenario, or not.

    I don't care if Magic Missile isn't an auto-hit, or that Fireball isn't a "pea-sized bead of fire that" etc etc; to me, those are the arbitrary numbers that have no meaning! I can describe it as a pea-sized bead that explodes in an orb of flame; again, doesn't affect the System.

    You know what I don't like the DM fiat-ing on me? Combat Rules. I may not be a very good DM myself, but when there's no Balance in a game, it's left up to the DM to just randomly decide what should stay and what should go in any given Campaign; I've seen it countless times. So having a mostly Balanced System with fairly engaging mechanics (though obviously 4E could use some work in that department) is pretty much the only thing I wanted out of a DnD game, assuming it kept the basic ideals of being a murder-hobo in a Fantasy Setting. Roll Stats? Why?? We all came up with arbitrary systems of fudging the rolls, anyway (reroll 1s, roll 3 sets take the best, etc). I have horrible Karma (entire Encounters where I roll 5 or lower? Check.); why would I ever want to roll for Hit Points again?


    Counterpoint:
    Now obviously 4E went that last Bridge Too Far, and we all know how that ends (Hint: Not well!). So yeah, there were plenty of concepts that were needlessly removed, the flavor was fairly horrid (I'll add that I've almost never used a pre-made Campaign Setting, so again, no loss for me on either FR or Greyhawk), and the Classes definitely could have used some variation (I like Martial Daily Powers...but yeah, just having them with stronger Encounter Powers would probably have been fine).

    So overall, again, I totally understand where everyone who approaches 4E from this perspective is coming from. I get it, I really do. However, then they say it just isn't DnD anymore.
    .
    .
    .
    Huh??? See, based on my experiences above, and how I've played before, you might see how I would be confused on this subject; all of my 4E campaigns have been fairly parallel to how things went in previous Editions. We get a Party together, we have some fun with each other or the Townies, and then we head out and Adventure! We fight Kobolds and Gnolls and Orcs and sometimes even Dragons! We get loot. We sell some of it and use the other stuff. Sometimes we even Save the World.

    How is that not DnD?

    Of course, Your Mileage May Vary.
    Resident Logic Cannon
    I actually kinda like reading other people's bios like that.  I find it's harder to be uncivil with someone when you feel like you've gotten to know them a little.  So, there's only really one appropriate way for me to respond to this, I think.

    Ecology of an Annoying Upstart Kid

    My name is Kyle.  I am a 24 year old gamer who has been playing D&D since I was around 16 years old.

    My father played D&D when he was younger, but stopped when he got out of high school(I think.  We've never really talked about it).  My grandparents ended up with the books in their house.  They didn't know what it was, really.  Some kid's game.  So they let me have it.  I've had that set of AD&D1e books since I was about 3.  I literally grew up perusing the monster manual, and Deities and Demigods is more than likely the source of my lifelong interest in mythology.  

    Despite this, I wouldn't end up actually playing until I was around 16.  I'm assuming, with that, that hours upon hours spent with my friends on the playground slaying tiamat(the slide) with our +5 swords and massive spellbooks(sticks and sound effects, respectively) doesn't actually count.  When I was in high school, I discovered that some of my classmates played.  It was 3e, though that didn't mean anything to me at the time.  They invited me in, I played an elf cleric.  I had a pretty terrible time.  The adventure was nonsensical, the DM was very rigid and kind of a jerk, and one player for some reason had five levels on the rest of us and handled everything by himself while we watched.  I didn't come back.

    Instead, I turned to my old books, and put myself to the task of mastering them enough to run my own game.  It took me until we graduated to feel comfortable with it.  I read and reread the DMG, set up a fake game and played by myself to try and get the hang of what I'd need to know and do.  I invited some of my closest friends to play with me, and my one session of 3e was the most any of us had ever actually played.

    One of our group had just gotten his own apartment, the first of us to do so, and we played at his place.  It's more accurate to say we lived there.  He'd have us over for a week at a time.  We'd wake up early in the morning, he'd go to work and I'd spend the entire time making adventures.   He'd get home and we'd play into the wee hours.  In a way, it was like losing a virginity.  Everyone was terrible at everything, in just about every way we could have been, and it was literally the most fun I've had in my life.

     Eventually, we went our separate ways.  Some of us went to college together, some moved away.  We're still in touch.  I'm a charismatic guy, so it didn't take long to find a good group of friends in college.  One of them had a set of 3.5 books and had never played, but wanted to try his hand at DMing.  We rounded up some players, and we did it.  We played all throughout college.  The members of the group shifting and changing.  I actually kinda hated the rules.  I loved the game, somehow, but parts involving the rules weren't so great for me.  I developed into a strong roleplayer, with a solid streak of disdain for min-maxing(back in those days, I still thought it was a dichotomy).  I branched out, played all kinds of games with all kinds of gamers, but always came back to my good old D&D group.

    When 4e came out, life was throwing some curve balls at me.  I had just gotten out of a relationship, I got laid off from work when the economy tanked.  Gaming was sorta my solace, and at that point, any change looked like it was meant solely to screw me over.  So I didn't want to play 4e.  But our DM(the same one who had owned the 3.5 books), got the 4e books and wanted to give it a shot. I was the offline version of the guy you see trolling the 4e boards.  I hated in every way I could, usually with no justifiable reason or even for things that were factually untrue.  I really don't know why no one punched me.  

    But they didn't.  They were pretty understanding, and what it came down to was simple.  If I was willig to get the books and learn the system for any non-3.5 game, and then DM it, they'd play.  We tried a lot of new games that way, enough that I don't even remember all their names.  But for every game we tried, I'd notice something that I liked better about 4e.  Gradually, hate gave way to grudging acceptance, and grudging acceptance gave way to honestly liking 4e.  

    As I started to like 4e, and actually read the books, I started to realize something.  I'm an optimizer.  I love making characters who are bloody good at what they do, and the books are full of litle puzzle pieces a player can put together to be a little stronger, and feel really clever.  At first I was pretty ashamed of it, because I knew that these power gamers were horrible pricks that ruined everyone's fun by making broken characters and stealing the show in every session.  I knew, with the certainty that can only really be attained when you're talking out your rear end, that you couldn't optimize and roleplay at the same time.  Eventually, I confessed this horrible shame to one of my friends.  It turned out he was an optimizer, too, and had been doing it this whole time!  I cried foul.  This could not be true.  After all, I really liked gaming with him.  He didn't ruin our fun or steal all the spotlight.  He was a great roleplayer, even!  I was forced to reevaluate some of the fundamental things I knew about gaming.

    Part of what I began to realize is that it's the balance of 4e that makes it so easy to be an optimizer.   The gap in power between a twinked out character and one built without any concerns for power was much smaller than I was used to.  It meant if I wanted to optimize, I could do it without ruining the other player's fun, even if they didn't do it.  That particular barrier to enjoying the game with people of varying playstyles was breached.

    I came to the wotc boards to read char op guides originally, ended up making posting here a bit of a hobby.  I dropped out of it for a few months when I was moving around the country and getting life somewhat under control.  I'm back now, though I mainly stuck to pbp.  Then I found about this.  I was pretty offput at first.  I decided early on that D&DN was going to be a revival of everything I hate in older editions to please grognards. When I heard that WotC was going to be really listening to our input, I came here to make myself heard.  I've also decided to be hopeful, because it's more fun than doomsaying.

    So there it is.  I'm an annoying upstart kid that loves 4e.  I love balance, I love powers.  I hate SoD, Vancian casting, and alignment.  I absolutely don't think 4e is like an MMO or that the classes all feel the same.  I hear a lot of people clamoring to make D&DN like an older edition, and I couldn't be more opposed.  I want D&DN to be a new thing.  If you love 1e, or 2, or 3e, or 4e those games already exist.  The OSR exists.  Retro clones and Pathfinder exist.  The internet makes finding people who want to play the same game as you easier than ever before.  So I think if you want to play an older game, just play an older game.  I'll just play 4e if I don't like D&DN.  

    I understand nostalgia, and wanting things to be like they used to be.   But for me, the edition of the game or the mechanics aren't part of it.  I miss that 1e campaign, but I don't miss 1e.  I miss having that much free time. I miss the sense of absolute wonder that came with realizing for the first time how you really can do anything in an rpg.  I miss having that trio of friends and being able to spend that much time together.  Save or die and to-hit tables weren't what made those times so great.  I miss the 3.5 days, but I don't miss 3.5.  I miss the friends I don't get to see anymore, since we've moved away from each other.  I miss the in-jokes we developed over the years.  I miss playing some of the great characters I had.  I could play 3.5 now, but having vancian casting and crappy balance wouldn't be giving me what I miss about those days.  The specific classes as presented in 3.5 weren't what I loved about those characters.

    Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
    Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
    4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
    I think we should take this "isn't D&D anymore" thing and throw it away... replace it with something entirely subjective.  because that is what the issue is.  subjective.  "doesn't feel like D&D to me"?  maybe it isn't a lot better.  But that 'feeling' is, I think, the issue.  It is something that is difficult to define.

    I could play a fantasy game in any generic system (I'd rather not give free advertising on boards like these so I won't name games) and play pretty much exactly the same games as I would in D&D... but would they feel like D&D?  If I was that easily pleased I probably wouldn't be here.

    Now, I know gamers that prefer those other systems... and they are, of course, free to like them.  However they feel.

    Does 3e feel like 2e to me?  Not exactly, but it is close enough.  4e is just a step too far for me though.  I tried to like it.  I sunk £60 into it when I was a student and really couldn't afford to.  I spent more time creating a setting than I have for any other game. I ran it once.  I was not vehemently opposed... I was disapointed that I had to tweak it to something that I might want to play (in order to remove the reliance on grids and I threw out skill challenges... and a couple of other things)... but rules tweaking isn't something that I run away from.  The perfect game doesn't exist after all.

    And that it doesn't feel right is something that hasn't just been said on these forums or by people I know.  My FLGS owner has told me it is a common complaint... and when people say it to him he has another product to point them at.  It is an issue and claiming that it isn't because you don't feel the difference doesn't help.  I say that because so many people come to the same conclusion independantly.  I never read or heard any negative stuff on the internet until (a long while) after I'd made up my mind (I never looked for any... why would I?).

    It is subjective.  It is entirely opinion.  It is very hard to define.  And it may be for different reasons for different people.  I am happy tha some people enjoyed 4th and that it worked for them.  I wanted to like it... and I thought some of the ideas were good... and if it had a different name and/or had been marketed differently it may have helped me.

    (and fixing things that people have problems with in supplemental core books doesn't help.  people will have given up on it before they buy them.  it has to appeal out of the gate)

    So will 5e feel exactly like any previous edition?  I doubt it. 
    Will it comes with modules hat can make it feel like them?  I hope so.
    Do I want a retro clone?  No
    Do I want 4e reskinned?  No
    Do I a 3.x game?  No
    I want a game that (with the corect modules applied) feels (to me) enough like what I expect from D&D for me to enjoy it on those terms while at the same time fixing some of the issues in the previos editions.  (and there are plenty)

    Can the devs deliver?  I don't know.  The problem is that the feel of the game is so subjective and so hard to define and so based upon individual desires and preconceptions that it may be impossible.  I hope it isn't... if I thought it was I wouldn't be here.

    lets try not to claim that the feel that other people may or may not have gotten from something is wrong or irrelevant and instead question why the feel the way that they do.  What was missing?  What wasn't missing?  What is the essential part of your D&D experience which may vary from theirs?  is there room for both within the same modules or are entirely different modules needed?  These are the questions that are needed if 5e is going to be the game that WotC say they want to make.

    Saying that people with different opinions to yours are wrong isn't just rude it is counterproductive.  Insisting that they don't share their issues because you find them offensive isn't any better.  We'll all have to swallow that bitter pill if we want this process to go anywhere.

    of course I'm not saying that people should be intentionally offensive.  Of course not... that wouldn't be any good at all.  We should all try to be sensitive and civil.  I'm not always good at sensitive... but I don't try to offend people.  I appologise if I do.

    But things will need to be said that people don't want to hear and we should try not to take them personally... (we should also try to deliver them in as nice a way as possible)

    /rant

    In summation.

    Feel is important.  Why do some people not feel that 4e isn't close enough to 'their D&D'?  Why do other people not feel a significant difference?  What do Grognards want that isn't there?  What is there that Grognards don't want?
    Feel is important.  Why do some people not feel that 4e isn't close enough to 'their D&D'?  Why do other people not feel a significant difference?  What do Grognards want that isn't there?  What is there that Grognards don't want?

    To quote myself:
    I can understand how you'd feel that way specifically, Baalbamoth. Many of the things everyone took for granted in every previous Edition were removed; hence, immersion is ruined, the game feels stale and dull, and it's all just a bunch of arbitary numbers and weird cards.


    The difference is:
    Some of us just don't care what flavor the book gives us; we make up our own and just want really good numbers to crunch that don't bust the RNG open every few seconds.

    Resident Logic Cannon
    Your answer fails to understand the issues.

    I can take that setting and put it into any generic fantasy game.  Does that make it feel like D&D?  Not to me.  To me the mechanics have a role to play in how a game feels.
    Your answer fails to understand the issues.

    I can take that setting and put it into any generic fantasy game.  Does that make it feel like D&D?  Not to me.  To me the mechanics have a role to play in how a game feels.


    Ah, my apologies, then. I did specify that it was "most," not "all," that I think feel that way. Of course, it's very hard to articulate, but I believe anyone who makes the MMORPG comparison is generally in the camp of "incredible lack of immersion," an argument I would gladly bow to any day over the video game comparisons.
    Resident Logic Cannon
    Feel is important.  Why do some people not feel that 4e isn't close enough to 'their D&D'?  Why do other people not feel a significant difference?  What do Grognards want that isn't there?  What is there that Grognards don't want?



     There's one thing that changed between 3e and 4e that a lot of people kinda miss and that the books never really talk about, but it has a huge effect on the feel of the game.  In 4e, as opposed earlier editions, the rules are sort of designed to play a different role in the game.  In older editions, the rules sort of act as a fantasy world simulator.  The numbers and the stats are reflections of an objective reality.  How many people are in this town? We've got a chart for that.  How strong is a commoner?  We have a class for that.  How strong is a housecat?  Got stats for that, too.  How strong is the innkeeper?  This is a question the rules are fully prepared to answer, in detail.  If it exists, there is a rule for it, somewhere, and if not, somebody better make one!  A tree falls in the woods, and no one is around to hear it.  Does it make a sound?  I don't know, but it fell because the hardness of the trunk was surpassed and its HP were depleted, and the falling tree will have a damage expression, even if no one is around for it to fall on.  Maybe that last one was a little extreme, but I'm hoping my point is clear.

    With 4e, though, the rules sort of have a different place at the table.  4e isn't trying to be a fantasy world simulator.  It's trying to be a good set of rules the players can use to play a good game.  How many people are in this town?  As many as the story calls for?  How strong is a commoner, or a cat, or the innkeeper?  When you need to know, select stats from the book that reflect how strong he needs to be to fill his role in the story.  The rules reflect a subjective reality that wraps around the PCs and only exists when they're there.  Maybe that innkeeper joins in a bar brawl and turns out to be a level 6 combatant with such-and-such stats.  But he wasn't level 6 before he joined the fight, and when he's done fighting, he isn't level 6 anymore.  He's just the innkeeper, until such time as the story might need him to have stats again.  This mindset is why Fighters can have encounter and daily powers.  It isn't necessarily supposed to be a fact, in the game world, that a Fighter can perform this action once daily.  Tom the Fighter never uses a power, he doesn't even know what powers are.  Dave, Tom's player, uses the powers.  

    Now, both of these approaches are valid, each has its drawbacks and its good points.  You can even play any edition with either mindset, but if you use the mindset the rules aren't written for, it'll feel like the rules are fighting you, on some subtle level.  Like you're trying to put in a screw with a hammer.  I strongly suspect this difference is key to understanding why a lot of people either love it or hate it.  They've been playing the old editions for 30 years, and whether they had nails or screws, they were using hammers to get them in the wall.  4e comes out, and it's a screwdriver.  The people with nails are scratching their heads, going "Waaiiit, this isn't quite right."  But the ones with screws are going "Finally!"

    Just a thought. 
    Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
    Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
    4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.