01/12/2012 FtL: "Liching It Up"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's From the Lab article, which goes live Thursday morning on magicthegathering.com.

Havengul Lich + Preiest of Urabask + Heartless Summoning= Infinate red mana in standard. You heard It here first folks!
Fail, it would cost 9 mana after paying 2  to summon Grimgrin and Bloodline Keeper
I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
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Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator. [Love, Tolerate, Exterminate] I loooove Phyrexian Obliterator. I lurk moar than I post, and I do it from my phone; so if you see a terribly short post or one with little to no caps, that is why. Current decks; BUG Birthing Pod Korlash, Heir to Blackblade (EDH)
This guy is a BAMF.
Lol, my first post and I have broken standard...
Lol, my first post and I have broken standard...

not on the slightest, no
OMG click HERE! OMG! How to autocard and use decklist format
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For autocarding, write [c][/c] with the name of the card inside it. [c]Island[/c] = Island For linking a card to Gatherer without writting the name of said card for readers, use the autocard brackets together with and equal sign and right the name of the real card. Then put the message you want inside the tags, like you would do with autocarding. Like this: [c=Curse of the Cabal]Captain Never-resolves[/c] = Captain Never-resolves For using the decklist format, follow this: [deck] 4* Terramorphic Expanse 4* Evolving Wilds ... [/deck] It equals:
Real signature, Sblocked for space:
57817638 wrote:
I like storm crow because I really like crows in real life, as an animal, and the card isn't terribly stupid, but packs a good deal of nostalgia and also a chunck of the game's history. So it's perhaps one of the cards I have most affection to, but not because "lol storm crow is bad hurr hurr durr".
Listen to my SoundCloud while you read my signature. The Island, Come And See, The Landlord's Daughter, You'll Not Feel The Drowning - The Decemberists by vimschy IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/rkvR.gif)IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/L3es.gif) IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/m71H.gif)
Quotes
56747598 wrote:
57295478 wrote:
Although I do assume you deliberately refer to them (DCI) as The Grand Imperial Convocation of Evil just for the purposes of making them sound like an ancient and terrible conspiracy.
Now, now. 1994 doesn't quite qualify as "ancient".
56734518 wrote:
Oh, it's a brilliant plan. You see, Bolas was travelling through shadowmoor, causing trouble, when he saw a Wickerbough Elder with its stylin' dead scarecrow hat. Now, Bolas being Bolas took the awesome hat and he put it on his head, but even with all his titanic powers of magic he couldn't make it fit. He grabbed some more scarecrows, but then a little kithkin girl asked if he was trying to build a toupee. "BY ALL THE POWERS IN THE MULTIVERSE!" he roared, "I WILL HAVE A HAT WORTHY OF MY GLORY." and so he went through his Dark Lore of Doom (tm) looking for something he could make into a hat that would look as stylish on him as a scarecrow does on a treefolk. He thought about the Phyrexians, but they were covered in goopy oil that would make his nonexistant hair greasy. He Tried out angels for a while but they didn't sit quite right. Then, he looked under "e" (because in the Elder Draconic alphabet, "e" for Eldrazi is right next to "h" for Hat) in his Dark Lore of Doom and saw depictions of the Eldrazi, and all their forms. "THIS SHALL BE MY HAT!" he declared, poking a picture of Emrakul, "AND WITH IT I WILL USHER IN A NEW AGE OF DARKNESS -- ER, I MEAN A NEW AGE OF FASHION!" And so Nicol Bolas masterminded the release of the Eldrazi.
57864098 wrote:
Rhox War Monk just flips pancakes, and if games have told us anything, it's that food = life.
56747598 wrote:
76973988 wrote:
This thread has gotten creepy. XP
Really? Really? The last couple days have been roughly every perverse fetish imaginable, but it only got "creepy" when speculation on Mother of Runes's mob affiliation came up?
76672808 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
57531048 wrote:
Nice mana base. Not really.
Yeah, really. If my deck was going to cost $1000+, I'd at least make it good.
99812049 wrote:
I like to think up what I consider clever names for my decks, only later to be laughed at by my wife. It kills me a little on the inside, but thats what marriage is about.
56816728 wrote:
56854588 wrote:
Of course, the best use [of tolaria west] is transmuting for the real Tolaria. ;)
Absolutely. I used to loose to my buddy's Banding deck for ages, it was then that I found out about Tolaria, and I was finally able win my first game.
70246459 wrote:
WOAH wait wait wait
56957928 wrote:
You know, being shallow and jusdgmental aside, "I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
"I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates
56957928 wrote:
OH MY GOD
109874309 wrote:
The only way I'd cast this card is into a bonfire.
82032421 wrote:
The short answer is that there's no rule barring annoying people from posting, but there a rule barring us from harassing them about it.
56747598 wrote:
Browbeat is a card that is an appropriate deck choice when there's no better idea available. "No better idea available" was pretty much the running theme of Odyssey era.
56874518 wrote:
Or perhaps it was a more straightforward comment indicating a wish for you to be bitten (Perhaps repeatedly) by a small yet highly venomous arachnid.
70246459 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
You're an idiot, and I'm in no mood for silliness.
57817638 wrote:
57145078 wrote:
You just... Vektor it.
That's the answer to everything.
70246459 wrote:
58347268 wrote:
I think the problem is that you don't exist.
This would sound great out of context!
56965458 wrote:
Modern is like playing a new tournament every time : you build a deck, you win with it, don't bother keeping it. Just build another, its key pieces will get banned.
57864098 wrote:
57309598 wrote:
I specifically remember posting a thread when I was just a witty bitty noob.
You make it sound like that's still not the case.
58325628 wrote:
Rap is what happens when the c from crap is taken away.
Doug Beyer:
But sometimes it's also challenging. Because sometimes OH MY GOD, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING?
141434757 wrote:
Flashforward five thousand years (Click for atmosphere) :
57927608 wrote:
to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum, Vektor finds a way.
58347268 wrote:
when in rome **** AND PILLAGE
143229641 wrote:
I always find it helpful when im angry to dress up in an owl costume and rub pennies all over my body in front of a full body mirror next to the window.
Dymecoar:
Playing Magic without Blue is like sleeping without any sheets or blankets. You can do it...but why?
Omega137:
Me: "I love the moment when a control deck stabilizes. It feels so... right." Omega137: "I like the life drop part until you get there, it's the MtG variant of bungee jumping"
Zigeif777:
Just do it like Yu-Gi-Oh or monkeys: throw all the crap you got at them and hope it works or else the by-standers (or opponents) just get dirty and pissed.
57471038 wrote:
58258708 wrote:
It's true that Alpha and Beta didn't contain any cards like Tarmogoyf, Darksteel Colossus, or Platinum Angel. It just contained weak, insignificant cards like Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, and Time Walk.
Normally it's difficult to pick up on your jokes/sarcasm. But this one's pretty much out there. Good progress. You have moved up to Humanoid. You'll be Human in no time.
91893448 wrote:
94618431 wrote:
I didn't know Samurai were known to be able to cut down whole armies...
They can when they're using lightsabers!
57129358 wrote:
97980259 wrote:
My wife brought home a baby black squirrel they found on a horse track and cared for it for a few days. We named it Grixis, but it died.
Unearth it!
70246459 wrote:
[/spoiler] And I'm on Magic Arcana. How about you? Oh, by the way, I'm also on From the Lab now. Twice, actually. And now with my own submited decklist!
After seeing all the amazing cards previewed already I can't believe I'm still getting blown away. This is the first card in awhile that I've seen that is literally making my brain buzz with ideas. Plus the Falkenrath Aristocrat in the image gallery is soo awesome, I love her flavor!!

Fail, it would cost 9 mana after paying 2  to summon Grimgrin and Bloodline Keeper



Umm 7 mana to cast them both is correct, like in the article. Heartless Summoning reduces the cost by 2 each so Grimgrin would be 3 CMC and Bloodline Keeper would be 2 CMC + 2 more for reanimation = 7

Culling Dais + Heartless Summoning + Perilous Myr + Havengul Lich:


Er, Culling Dais requires a tap. You can use other sac outlets though, like Devouring Swarm or Disciple of Grislebrand or Ferrovore.


This really makes me wish Altar of the Lost said "cast spells from graveyards" and not "cast spells from graveyards with flashback". Like really.
The combos and possibilites are nigh endless. If I ever get it, it's going straight into my Burning Vengeance/Secrets of the Dead deck.

 
An interesting concept, but I think 5 mana for this guy is too much after all.
He doesn't do enough as it comes into play to be viable in constructed (for such cost).
also, he's not legendary, even though he could become one of the most interesting generals for EDH.
This is a great, interesting creature. but disappointing in this shape
Really, all this will do is wreck kitchentable games where nobody knows how it actually works.

Surprised to see no mention of Civilized Scholar. It seems perfect with the Lich.


(For those who don't know, you can bring it back, borrowing its looting ability and then endlessly loot creatures into your graveyard because the lich can't transform)

Culling Dais + Heartless Summoning + Perilous Myr + Havengul Lich:

Sac the Myr: do 2 damage to opponent. Pay 1 mana, recast it for free. Sac it again. Repeat this 4 times. Sac it a 5th time. You end up doing 10 damage, then you sac the culling dais with the 5th mana and draw 4 cards.



Even if you didn't have to tap the Dais to Sac the Myr, you can't Sac a creature that's already dead and in the graveyard, beacuse the very moment the Myr reenters the battlefield it's already in the graveyard before you have a chance to react due to Heartless Summoning.

HOWEVER to get the effect you are looking for just use "Secrets of the Dead" from yesterdays preview :D
This is yet another preview card that leaves me mildly irked.  Almost everything about this card seems just a bit off.  We have:

1) The name.  Why call this a lich?  What's lich-like about this?  Has nobody ever heard of a necromancer before?
2) The ablility.  Why tack on the last sentence?  It's either going to be absurdly broken, or mostly useless (more often the latter).  It just feels unnecessarily clunky, confusing, and lacking in flavor.
3) The power level.  It's probably not good enough to make it in Constructed, but it's about as bomby as you can get in Limited -- the worst of both worlds.

Well, those're my thoughts on the card in a nutshell.  If it turns out that it is actually constructed playable (it seems a bit too weak to me, but I obviously haven't played with it yet, and perhaps once Dismember leaves...), then maybe I'll forgive them point 3).  But other than that, color me unimpressed.

Edit: Good Standard brew, though.  I forgot to mention that.
This is yet another preview card that leaves me mildly irked.  Almost everything about this card seems just a bit off.  We have:

1) The name.  Why call this a lich?  What's lich-like about this?  Has nobody ever heard of a necromancer before?
2) The ablility.  Why tack on the last sentence?  It's either going to be absurdly broken, or mostly useless (more often the latter).  It just feels unnecessarily clunky, confusing, and lacking in flavor.
3) The power level.  It's probably not good enough to make it in Constructed, but it's about as bomby as you can get in Limited -- the worst of both worlds.



Hmmm
1: Have you ever heard of a Lich before? Aside from their tendancy to have a phylactery. In every lore where I've encountered a Lich in the story they are always the masters of the undead, unrivaled by no one when it comes to reanimation, being able to control entire armies. I for one am finally glad Wizards has designed around this side of Liches, since every Lich flavored card till this point has been focused on immortality of their phylacteries. EDIT: On that note, in most cases Liches were necromancers while they were alive who saught immortality through death and became liches, they basically are mega undead necromancers.

2. This seems a little odd to me flavor wise, but I think it was put on to justify it being mythic. As I could see this card being a rare without that last sentence. As to it's usefullness it obviously has to be built around. But then again who's to say that Wizards isn't aloud to break the mold and evolve their Liches into something new. It would be pretty harsh to restrict them to such preexisting flavor limits.

3. I'm never quite sure what people mean by this since everyones opinion of "good enough" is different but when it comes to constructed it's almost as if everybody wants a card that is 5CMC or higher to just win them the game when it's played, which should NEVER be the case in any format or serious/casual level of play. Personally in constructed I think it'll definitely have it's uses.  

And you're right the standard list was pretty good for a preview card.
This + Soulbright Flamekin + arbitrary sac outlet = infinite mana.

Pay 3 mana to reanimate the Flamekin, pump 6 mana into the Flamekin's ability, get 8 mana.  The Lich also gets a new copy of the same ability, which is separate from all the other copies of the ability, so you can pump 6 mana into that ability and get 8 mana back.  You spent a total of 15 mana and got back 16 mana.  Sac the Flamekin and repeat.


Surprised to see no mention of Civilized Scholar. It seems perfect with the Lich.


(For those who don't know, you can bring it back, borrowing its looting ability and then endlessly loot creatures into your graveyard because the lich can't transform)



For those who don't know, a similar combo using copy effects was featured no less than three times in a recent article.
Signed up just to say this: "Play a creature on my oponents turn? After swinging with my big hitter last turn? As many times as I can afford the 1? Don't mind if I do"
You do know you still have to pay the creatures mana right?

Also, i think (but am not sure) you can only cast in your own turn..
wow a lich with NO weakness, then it's not a lich...!!

I like creatures to have some disadvantage so you have to build around it instead of only getting bigger and better..

obviously great in EDH and multiplay...
This does not change any timing restrictions regarding playing the creature card you target, which means most of the time you can only play the creature at sorcery speed during your turn.  The two fine points about this are that if the target has flash (cough Snapcaster cough) you can play it any time.  The second is that this ability itself (the actual paying 1 and targeting) can still be done at any time, since the effect lasts through the turn- basically, you aren't required to cast the creature right now.

Really, all this will do is wreck kitchentable games where nobody knows how it actually works.



I couldn't disagree with this post more, since some of the best, most technically-knowledgeable Magic players I know wouldn't go near a tourny if it killed them.  Being casual is not the same as being inexperienced.
This an intersting card in terms of the evolution of the game and the modern era of magic with its emphasis on removing 'bad' complexity.

In the modern era they don't like to put drawbacks on cards. This apparently even applies to famous categories of cards which have been defined by their drawbacks.

As a long time mtg player (since fallen empires) this doesn't feel like a lich to me. I don't find the card terribly objectionable and I'd have fun using it in Commander or Archenemy, it just makes me a little sad that all the drawbacks are gone. Especially considering black is supposed to be all about power at a cost.
As much as I love the art, I find I kind of dislike the card.  The art looks far less good in a gold frame than it would have in mono-black, where the purple energy would seem to light the card up instead of just being lost in a rectangle of murk.  And I have a hard time figuring out why the ability works the way it does - summoning up a dead creature AND copying its memories?  Why both of those things?  I'd like them better as separate abilities.  I can kind of squint and imagine that the idea is he consumes the victim's mind (forgetting the abilities after a while due to limited brain capacity or something) and then reanimates the shell, but it's not all that obvious, and without the last sentence of the ability I think it'd have been a cleaner design.  Finally I'm sad that it's "havenguL Lich", as the tongue tends to trip over such pronunciations; it should have been "Lich of Havengul" or used a different proper name.  All told, a good strong swing but it doesn't quite connect IMO.
PS - What, no love for Lich Lord of Unx?
My New Phyrexia Writing Credits My M12 Writing Credits
As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
This is the first previewed card that I absolutely must have....
Nihil Spellbomb and Surgical Extraction just became necessary in every standard deck's sideboard.
Really, all this will do is wreck kitchentable games where nobody knows how it actually works.



I couldn't disagree with this post more, since some of the best, most technically-knowledgeable Magic players I know wouldn't go near a tourny if it killed them.  Being casual is not the same as being inexperienced.

Here's what's going to happen:


  • Someone (or several someones) out there is going to assume it says "1: steal a dead dude"

  • If the opponent doesn't know otherwise, Lichy will ruin his day, and we'll see badly mispelled complaint threads about how unfair it is.

  • If the opponent does know otherwise,  and/or made a complaint thread and was shown how it really works, the result will be a "nuh uh!"/"yeah huh!" argument, followed by a badly mispelled "my frend sez u hav to pay the lands for havgol lech" thread.

As much as I love the art, I find I kind of dislike the card.  The art looks far less good in a gold frame than it would have in mono-black, where the purple energy would seem to light the card up instead of just being lost in a rectangle of murk.  And I have a hard time figuring out why the ability works the way it does - summoning up a dead creature AND copying its memories?  Why both of those things?  I'd like them better as separate abilities.  I can kind of squint and imagine that the idea is he consumes the victim's mind (forgetting the abilities after a while due to limited brain capacity or something) and then reanimates the shell, but it's not all that obvious, and without the last sentence of the ability I think it'd have been a cleaner design.  Finally I'm sad that it's "havenguL Lich", as the tongue tends to trip over such pronunciations; it should have been "Lich of Havengul" or used a different proper name.  All told, a good strong swing but it doesn't quite connect IMO.
PS - What, no love for Lich Lord of Unx?




"Have 'n a gLich"?
Really, all this will do is wreck kitchentable games where nobody knows how it actually works.



I couldn't disagree with this post more, since some of the best, most technically-knowledgeable Magic players I know wouldn't go near a tourny if it killed them.  Being casual is not the same as being inexperienced.

Here's what's going to happen:


  • Someone (or several someones) out there is going to assume it says "1: steal a dead dude"

  • If the opponent doesn't know otherwise, Lichy will ruin his day, and we'll see badly mispelled complaint threads about how unfair it is.

  • If the opponent does know otherwise,  and/or made a complaint thread and was shown how it really works, the result will be a "nuh uh!"/"yeah huh!" argument, followed by a badly mispelled "my frend sez u hav to pay the lands for havgol lech" thread.




@DragonOfLaw: I highly suspect this this is false. There are only two ways I can think of to become a "technically-knowledgeable" Magic player: Go to a lot of tourneys or read the Comp. Rules book. Now, I don't think anyone has ever read the Comp. Rules front-to-back, so I wonder how these people acquired all of this alleged "knowledge".

@Qmark: You are an old and wise Magic sage with knowledge beyond that which one with a low post-count can comprehend.

Really, all this will do is wreck kitchentable games where nobody knows how it actually works.



I was about to question how anyone could even misinterpret how the card works - it says right there, you get to play creatures from graveyards, how hard is that to grok?! Then I saw . . .

Signed up just to say this: "Play a creature on my oponents turn? After swinging with my big hitter last turn? As many times as I can afford the 1? Don't mind if I do"



. . . and I had to take back everything.



@DragonOfLaw: I highly suspect this this is false. There are only two ways I can think of to become a "technically-knowledgeable" Magic player: Go to a lot of tourneys or read the Comp. Rules book. Now, I don't think anyone has ever read the Comp. Rules front-to-back, so I wonder how these people acquired all of this alleged "knowledge".



Or, you could play the game for a long enough time, watching videos and reading articles, without physically going to a lot of tourneys, and be a "technically-knowledgeable" player. Not every casual is a scrub who doesn't understand the game, a lot of us understand it on many levels. We just can't / don't go to tourneys, for some combination of reasons
@DragonOfLaw: I highly suspect this this is false. There are only two ways I can think of to become a "technically-knowledgeable" Magic player: Go to a lot of tourneys or read the Comp. Rules book. Now, I don't think anyone has ever read the Comp. Rules front-to-back, so I wonder how these people acquired all of this alleged "knowledge".



I don't go to tournaments; I know a lot of rules, but that doesn't make me exempt from mistakes such as misreading an ability. It interests me to know how cards operate. I read rules on gatherer, from the rules compendium (everyone should download the PDF), and I look up things when I don't know how they work. It's easier on Magic Online -- the rules are handled for you, but before that when I played paper magic, we would always stop and look up a ruling if we didn't understand something. It leads to much better gameplay than assuming how something works.

From my understanding of the rules, this card only allows you to cast creatures from your own graveyard or an opponent's graveyard on your turn, unless that creature has an ability that allows otherwise (such as flash). The reason for this is that, despite the lich's ability being an instant, it is not the instant that is bringing the creature back -- the instant is only allowing you to do the casting from the graveyard. You still need then to respect the casting speed of the creature, which is almost always at sorcery speed.

And yes, of course people are going to misinterpret the card and think it means you get a free creature, but even though this is false (you still need to pay the mana cost of the creature), it doesn't make this any less powerful. This card is an engine. Its power comes from its ability to shortcut all those other cards that return creatures to your hand.

Think about it: people play cards all the time that return creatures from their graveyard to their hand -- be it sorcery cards or abilities. Here we have, possibility, the lowest costing ability, because it hits both graveyards and is repeatable.

Turn 1: Arcane Sanctum
Turn 2: Darkslick Shores, Heartless Summoning
Turn 3: (any land that doesn't come in tapped), Lich
Turn 4: Tempered Steel
Turn 5: Mind Funeral yourself. Now cast stuff from your graveyard.

Myr Retriever, Leaden Myr, Millikin, Perilous Myr, Silver Myr, Spellkite, Steel Overseer etc.

Now you have a bunch of creatures out that can add more mana, dump more cards into your library, and protect you and your creatures. Eventually you'll have a swarm of creatures out and you'll be pumping them all up with Steel Overseer. Doesn't matter if they die because you can just bring them back.

You only ever need 1 Lich out on the board, so if it dies, run with Call to the Netherworld and return it to your hand. The nice thing about Call to the Netherworld is that if someone forces you to discard it, you can cast if for its free madness cost.


Turn 1: Swamp
Turn 2: Island, Heartless Summoning
Turn 3: Swamp (3 mana left), Dark Ritual (5 mana left), Entomb Millikin (4 mana left), Cast Lich, (1 mana left), activate ability of Lich and return Millikin to battlefield (free with heartless summoning).
Turn 4: Mind Funeral yourself with your 3 mana from your 3 lands. (You don't need a lot of land, so you'll put a lot of creatures into your graveyard.) Use Millikin to put another card in your graveyard and get 1 mana for Lich's ability. Activate Lich's ability to get more free (with heartless summoning) creatures onto the battlefield.

Myr Retriever, Leaden Myr, Millikin, Perilous Myr, Silver Myr, Spellkite, Steel Overseer etc.

Now you have a bunch of creatures out that can add more mana, dump more cards into your library, and protect you and your creatures. Eventually you'll have a swarm of creatures out and you'll be pumping them all up with Steel Overseer. Doesn't matter if they die because you can just bring them back.

You only ever need 1 Lich out on the board, so if it dies, run with Call to the Netherworld and return it to your hand. The nice thing about Call to the Netherworld is that if someone forces you to discard it, you can cast if for its free madness cost.



None of those creatures will be doing very much with a Heartless Summoning out ;) (other than dying when state based effects are checked)

Noel says you can cast from the opponents graveyard, but is it really so? It does say "a graveyeard" not "any graveyeard" and that is a huge difference.

Steve Sadin was reviewing a card with a similar wording here:
www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.a...

and specifically says:
"Altar of the Lost doesn't allow you to cast spells from any other player's graveyard, although you can spend the mana it produces on such spells if something else allows you to."

So who is right, Steve or Noel? I'd love it to be all graveyards but don't really believe in it Smile
Noel says you can cast from the opponents graveyard, but is it really so? It does say "a graveyeard" not "any graveyeard" and that is a huge difference.

Steve Sadin was reviewing a card with a similar wording here:
www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.a...

and specifically says:
"Altar of the Lost doesn't allow you to cast spells from any other player's graveyard, although you can spend the mana it produces on such spells if something else allows you to."

So who is right, Steve or Noel? I'd love it to be all graveyards but don't really believe in it



Altar of the Lost doesn't give you any extra ability to cast spells you wouldn't normally be able to cast; it instead puts a restriction on the mana itself. Lich, on the other hand, is allowing you to cast cards you normally wouldn't be able to cast (those in your graveyard, and those in opponents graveyards). They are both right, the difference between "a graveyard" and "any graveyard" actually doesn't matter, its the difference between having a restriction on how you can spend mana vs being allowed to cast things you wouldn't normally be able to cast.
Noel says you can cast from the opponents graveyard, but is it really so? It does say "a graveyeard" not "any graveyeard" and that is a huge difference.

Steve Sadin was reviewing a card with a similar wording here:
www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.a...

and specifically says:
"Altar of the Lost doesn't allow you to cast spells from any other player's graveyard, although you can spend the mana it produces on such spells if something else allows you to."

So who is right, Steve or Noel? I'd love it to be all graveyards but don't really believe in it Smile



That's because the Altar of the Lost isn't granting you ANY ability to cast spells from ANY graveyard - it's just giving you the mana to do it if you can. The Havengul Lich is specifically giving you the ability to cast spells from graveyards.

They're both right.
None of those creatures will be doing very much with a Heartless Summoning out ;) (other than dying when state based effects are checked)



All you need to get around that is something that gives your creatures +1/+1, like Myr Matrix, Adaptive Automaton, Angelic Shield, Tempered Steel, Death Pit Offering, etc.
I have 1 question about havengul lich, since it says 'you may cast target creature card from a graveyard this turn', if said creature re-entered the graveyard that turn (such as perilous myr with heartless summoning), wouldn't you be able to re-play it since it is the exact same card and it is back in a graveyard?  Or does the effect wear off after the creature hits the battlefield?
@Torpesh and Fluxorfly

Cheers guys, understand the difference now.

I can still see this cause some confusing, especially in casual environments. But hey, the card is just way cool!
I have 1 question about havengul lich, since it says 'you may cast target creature card from a graveyard this turn', if said creature re-entered the graveyard that turn (such as perilous myr with heartless summoning), wouldn't you be able to re-play it since it is the exact same card and it is back in a graveyard?  Or does the effect wear off after the creature hits the battlefield?



Cards changing zones forget any information they had while in the other zone, so going from the graveyard to play makes the card "forget" that it was allowed to be cast this turn from graveyards, and when it gets put back into the graveyard, it won't remember that it used to have special abilities granted to it.

@Torpesh and Fluxorfly

Cheers guys, understand the difference now.

I can still see this cause some confusing, especially in casual environments. But hey, the card is just way cool!



Its a super sweet card, I'm really excited to get to play with it
This is going to be great in my zombie deck.
Rooftop storm now reads "all zombies in your graveyard cost 1 to cast."

Also, can you use this to cast creature cards (in your graveyard) during your opponents turn?
This is going to be great in my zombie deck.
Rooftop storm now reads "all zombies in your graveyard cost 1 to cast."

Also, can you use this to cast creature cards (in your graveyard) during your opponents turn?



Only if that creature had flash, or something else allowed you to cast creatures during your opponent's turn.
The card says "You may cast target creature card from a graveyard this turn." The only restriction I see is that the creature being cast this turn must be in a graveyard but there's no restriction to your turn. If it was meant to only be activated on your turn surely it would have said "Activate this ability only during your main phase" or "...from a graveyard on your turn"?
Can you explain why activating an ability that states you may cast a creature spell this turn (not 'your turn') does not let you cast a creature on your opponents turn?
The card says "You may cast target creature card from a graveyard this turn." The only restriction I see is that the creature being cast this turn must be in a graveyard but there's no restriction to your turn. If it was meant to only be activated on your turn surely it would have said "Activate this ability only during your main phase" or "...from a graveyard on your turn"?
Can you explain why activating an ability that states you may cast a creature spell this turn (not 'your turn') does not let you cast a creature on your opponents turn?

Thinking more about it, and reading the other posts, the restriction is based on the normal rulings. Even though it says "cast ... this turn", unless it has flash, as you said, then you can't cast it as the ability doesn't give the creature flash. I'll be watching for the official rulings.

And to the earlier post, yes I am aware that you have to pay the mana cost. Perhaps I should have said "as long as I can afford the mc+1"
This guy... is amazing! Not very "lich" like, but still amazing. U/B control will love this guy. Think about it: unlimited plays of snapcaster. Think about it... UNLIMITED snapcaster. Plus, since Snapcaster has flash, it should be able to be used during your opponents turn, bypassing the possible negative to this card (3cmc, but by the time you get this guy out, you would be able to afford snapcaster + doomblade or counter the next turn). This guy to me seems broken as hell, and next to grimgrin (with gravecrawler being a recursive sac req for grimgrin) i will quite enjoy playing B/U zombies (anyone say even MORE recursive zombies?).