Bring back 3.5 spell lists.

I entirely miss the ability for my wizard/spell caster to have the ability to overcome nearly any obstacle with the correct amount of preperation and R&D. But I enjoyed giving melee characters "abilities" in 4e. In 4e its the same spells over and over again for casters with no chance for those wow moments and such. Me and my players felt very limited in what our spellcasters could "do" in any single day.

It forced me and my players to think outside of the box/rules to come up with interesting solutions for various problems and obstacles. My players used to do research and compile ideas and spells to come up with nearly anything imaginable. 4e took all of that away from us and rituals are entirely lackluster and easily forgotten about.
IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/Akaizhar/sig2-1.jpg)
I entirely miss the ability for my wizard/spell caster to have the ability to overcome nearly any obstacle with the correct amount of preperation and R&D.


Ugh.  No thanks.  I don't want one class who can defeat any obstacle with enough time.  There's always ways to get time.  Time in a RPG is cheap.  It's a very poor limitation on character power and a terrible way to force character balance.

Not every character should be able to do every act.  D&D is (or should be) a game about a team of equals, not a game of Gandalf and the folks who get to be a hero only while Gandalf is resurrecting.
I entirely miss the ability for my wizard/spell caster to have the ability to overcome nearly any obstacle with the correct amount of preperation and R&D. But I enjoyed giving melee characters "abilities" in 4e. In 4e its the same spells over and over again for casters with no chance for those wow moments and such. Me and my players felt very limited in what our spellcasters could "do" in any single day.

It forced me and my players to think outside of the box/rules to come up with interesting solutions for various problems and obstacles. My players used to do research and compile ideas and spells to come up with nearly anything imaginable. 4e took all of that away from us and rituals are entirely lackluster and easily forgotten about.



Could the solution in part be a better implemented (and more robust) ritual system that has guidelines on research for spells and a faster casting speed - with wizards perhaps just having a better "knack" at it.  

This way a group wouldn't have to suffer for not having a caster in the group (since they could still use rituals with some effort), it could allow for a wider range of effects than what we have now, and "caster" classes could still have some options - perhaps starting with rituals, getting free rituals, or reduced componet cost (i.e. able to cast one ritual a day for free)

 
Welcome to ZomboniLand - My D&D Blog http://zomboniland.blogspot.com/
I entirely miss the ability for my wizard/spell caster to have the ability to overcome nearly any obstacle with the correct amount of preperation and R&D.



Taking that away is what some of us like best about 4E.  Removing that makes sure all players contribute instead of the spellcaster doing everyone's job better than they can.  Why be a thief if the wizard can simply teleport every one into the locked room or make everyone silent and invisible for the next hour or make a giant hole in the wall they all walk through etc..

There are a lot of good reasons to bring back spell lists, but that is not one of them.
I entirely miss the ability for my wizard/spell caster to have the ability to overcome nearly any obstacle with the correct amount of preperation and R&D.



Taking that away is what some of us like best about 4E.  Removing that makes sure all players contribute instead of the spellcaster doing everyone's job better than they can.  Why be a thief if the wizard can simply teleport every one into the locked room or make everyone silent and invisible for the next hour or make a giant hole in the wall they all walk through etc..

There are a lot of good reasons to bring back spell lists, but that is not one of them.



Hear hear.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I entirely miss the ability for my wizard/spell caster to have the ability to overcome nearly any obstacle with the correct amount of preperation and R&D.


Ugh.  No thanks.  I don't want one class who can defeat any obstacle with enough time.  There's always ways to get time.  Time in a RPG is cheap.  It's a very poor limitation on character power and a terrible way to force character balance.

Not every character should be able to do every act.  D&D is (or should be) a game about a team of equals, not a game of Gandalf and the folks who get to be a hero only while Gandalf is resurrecting.


Shock of shocks, I agree with wrecan. While I have fond memories of my half-optimized Arcane Trickster completely outclassing my friends' minmaxed warrior-types, we really don't need to go back to the days of Almighty Wizards or CoDzilla.
Rhymes with Bruce
Two thumbs up to going back to spell lists in general. Also develop lists of martial powers and what not for those who are not spell casters. Ki power lists for others. Etc.

Two thumbs down to reviving the uber twink spell casters who could conquer all given enough time. That was one of the worst aspects of previous iterations of the game.
I entirely miss the ability for my wizard/spell caster to have the ability to overcome nearly any obstacle with the correct amount of preperation and R&D.


I'd prefer to see no daily spells at all. It's just a headache for the DM and players to manage extended rests.

And I don't think casters should be more powerful than any other class. Different, definitely, but not stronger.

Two thumbs up to going back to spell lists in general. Also develop lists of martial powers and what not for those who are not spell casters. Ki power lists for others. Etc.

Two thumbs down to reviving the uber twink spell casters who could conquer all given enough time. That was one of the worst aspects of previous iterations of the game.



Agreed.

I also loved the previous edition feel of a wizard whose power level was based on his preparation; if you picked the right spells for the right situation, you were totally awesome, and if you picked the wrong ones, you were totally useless.  This is bad for balance; however, it is theoretically possible to give the same feeling (prep = power) with a much lower delta, resulting in a wizard who ranges from 'pretty good' to 'pretty great' without totally overshadowing every other party member all the time (it's ok if it happens some of the time, because the wizard will himself be totally overshadowed some of the time; that's what giving everyone the spotlight is all about).
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
I for one don't want to go back to the "good old days" where the person playing the wizard would do nothing for a few rounds, then spend one to three rounds completely changing the battlefield, then go read a book or listen to music while the rest of the group finished mopping up the stuff that was left so he would not waste spells.

The concept of at-will abilities means that people worked as a group, rather than one or two characters having most of the power and everyone else just being their clean up crew. The game got a lot better when it stopped supporting these "I am better than you" alpha players.
My thoughts on what works and what doesn't in D&D and how D&D Next may benefit are detailed on my blog, Vorpal Thoughts.
I actually think that you could easily restore a lot of the spells on the 3.5 spell list, but you'd also have to exercise a bit of caution.

First of all, a return to the 3.5 spell list would require that the developers go through each of the spells individually and basically rewrite their crunch. You don't have to toss out the entire spell list, but the effects of the spells should be written in such a manner as to make sure that none of them is a game-breaking save vs. lose. I suggest taking a look at Rule of Cool's Legend RPG. They basically copy-pasted the 3.5 spell-list but rewrote all of the spells so that none of them are overpowering.

As far as the other spells go, none of the characters should have access to spells that allow them to do the job of other characters. A Cleric shouldn't be able to fight better than a Fighter by virtue of their spells and neither should a Wizard be able to make the group Rogue cry because his spells could replicate the effects of all the skills the Rogue has spent points in. The utility spells of the classes should reflect the class. To use the Wizard as an example, the Wizard's utility spells should be stuff like divinations, comprehend languages and legend lore to really get across the fact that the Wizard is an extremely academic class.

So, yeah, bring the spell lists back by all means, but trim them to make sure that no character can stand in for the entire party by virtue of the versatility of their spell-list. Roleplaying is a social activity and it's no fun when the spellcaster hogs the spotlight all the time because they always have a solution up their sleeve.
Two thumbs up to going back to spell lists in general. Also develop lists of martial powers and what not for those who are not spell casters. Ki power lists for others. Etc.

Two thumbs down to reviving the uber twink spell casters who could conquer all given enough time. That was one of the worst aspects of previous iterations of the game.



This is more what I meant. I'm a huge fan of entirely fluff spells/powers.

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/Akaizhar/sig2-1.jpg)
I actually think that you could easily restore a lot of the spells on the 3.5 spell list, but you'd also have to exercise a bit of caution.

First of all, a return to the 3.5 spell list would require that the developers go through each of the spells individually and basically rewrite their crunch. You don't have to toss out the entire spell list, but the effects of the spells should be written in such a manner as to make sure that none of them is a game-breaking save vs. lose. I suggest taking a look at Rule of Cool's Legend RPG. They basically copy-pasted the 3.5 spell-list but rewrote all of the spells so that none of them are overpowering.

As far as the other spells go, none of the characters should have access to spells that allow them to do the job of other characters. A Cleric shouldn't be able to fight better than a Fighter by virtue of their spells and neither should a Wizard be able to make the group Rogue cry because his spells could replicate the effects of all the skills the Rogue has spent points in. The utility spells of the classes should reflect the class. To use the Wizard as an example, the Wizard's utility spells should be stuff like divinations, comprehend languages and legend lore to really get across the fact that the Wizard is an extremely academic class.

So, yeah, bring the spell lists back by all means, but trim them to make sure that no character can stand in for the entire party by virtue of the versatility of their spell-list. Roleplaying is a social activity and it's no fun when the spellcaster hogs the spotlight all the time because they always have a solution up their sleeve.



This as well, I am a huge fan of.

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/Akaizhar/sig2-1.jpg)
Ah! In that case, two thumbs up in general.

Smile
This is more what I meant. I'm a huge fan of entirely fluff spells/powers.


But why can they only be cast once in a game day? Apart from it being traditional D&D and a fond retrospect, it isn't a practical system at all. To have a PC cast a spell, then weirdly 'forget' it, it's just, well, a dumb idea to be frank, and not very fun.

only if there would be a strict limit on spells known.

woulden't want to go back to the situation where when you started at higer level a wizard would know all spells.
in our group we have 1 player who loves wizards, in 3.x if a new book came out he would calculate how much it would cost to buy al the spells in the newly released book.

instead of having his spells known list on his character sheet he just listed the books like phb, complete arcane, forgotten realms campaign setting.

and if the DM said ok guys the lord has asked you to travel north to defeat the rost giants.
he ( and the priest player as priest had accesss to all priest spells) would bring out the stack of books and spend like 2 hours to optimize their spell memorized list for the treat of frost giants.

But why can they only be cast once in a game day? Apart from it being traditional D&D and a fond retrospect, it isn't a practical system at all. To have a PC cast a spell, then weirdly 'forget' it, it's just, well, a dumb idea to be frank, and not very fun.




Yeah, I hated that so much. There should be a leveling system and then when you're 3-7 levels above a ritual you can cast it for free as many times per day as you wish, or something of that sort.
IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/Akaizhar/sig2-1.jpg)
I like spell lists, but they really do need to be adjusted so that a spellcaster isn't capable of everything.

Instead of memorizing though couldn't we nail a short list of spells that a caster can do (I guess sort of like at-will abilities) at any time. Then come up with some sort of spell point system where a caster can cast a combination of more powerful spells.

Somewhat like a stamina type of situation. Certain spells are relatively easy to focus and cast, therefore no spell point cost. Other spells are more of an effort of will and ability to cast and have an overall affect on the caster wearing he/she down throughout a day. Overnight rest repenishes the pool and you are back to it.

There are a few ways you could go about determing the pool value.

Taking the teleporting the group into a room instead of having a Theif do it. If I was a Wizard and had a pool of 30 spell points. Base Teleport for a single target costs me 5 (target being myself or another). Increase spell cost by 5 for every additional target. The Wizard could potentially do this, but at a signficant cost to his ability for the day. The Thief on the other hand could pick the lock and the Wizard keeps his points for whatever they may encounter.

Magic is magic and it should be fantastic and capable of many things. However just because you can use magic, doesn't always mean you should. It should cost something to cast. It always bothered me though that I memorized a certain spell for a day and after I cast it, it was almost like I forgot it. I have the knowledge so I should keep that knowledge. It makes sense for me not to have the capacity to cast something like a fireball all day or hop around the globe teleporting at will, but to forget the way to do it? Never made much sense to me.

I like the idea of ramping up a particuar spell in a certain situation. Why wait to a certain level to cast a more powerful fireball? Let me pour everything I have into that one blast. Yeah it leaves me somewhat incapacitated for the remainder of the day but maybe I made a difference in the battle. Heck you could even take it a bit further. If I run out of spell points for the day I could start dipping into my own hit points. That would allow for the ultimate expression of potentially giving my life up to help the group and let me go out in a blaze of glory.

There are many options to address this, and trust me I know what I wrote above isn't all that detailed or something even all that unique.

When looking back at 3e, I think one of the best innovations for arcane casters was the warlock. He got evocation right off the bat (eldritch blast), and could choose to specialize in that, or he could take a number of iconic (albeit selfish) invocations to aid him... and, in a round-about way, his allies. In addition, he could use the hell out of magic devices.

Why not look at the 5e spellcaster being along those lines? Let the arcanist have an inherent evocation blow stuff up and burn it down to the ground ability with the option to either specialize in that ability or to gain access to selfish or at least limited at-will abilities. Throw in the ability to research scrolls and craft magic devices to enhance their versatility (single use scrolls or charge use staffs), and you still have an iconic magic wielding wizard. Divine casters could be run the same way, granting them an inherent healing ability they can either specialize in or gain access to other at-will abilities.

Just a thought.

I personally think that traditional spellcasters should mostly be Vancian, i.e. preparing spells ahead of time and then in the heat of the battle letting out the final incantation to actually cast the spell, but they shouldn't be limited to simply daily spell-casting. Some spells, like cantrips, should most definitely be at-will. I also think that magic missile absolutely deserves to be an at-will. It should be every Wizard's go-to combat spell when they run out of other stuff to cast for the day.
I like spell lists, but they really do need to be adjusted so that a spellcaster isn't capable of everything.

Instead of memorizing though couldn't we nail a short list of spells that a caster can do (I guess sort of like at-will abilities) at any time. Then come up with some sort of spell point system where a caster can cast a combination of more powerful spells.

Somewhat like a stamina type of situation. Certain spells are relatively easy to focus and cast, therefore no spell point cost. Other spells are more of an effort of will and ability to cast and have an overall affect on the caster wearing he/she down throughout a day. Overnight rest repenishes the pool and you are back to it.

There are a few ways you could go about determing the pool value.

Taking the teleporting the group into a room instead of having a Theif do it. If I was a Wizard and had a pool of 30 spell points. Base Teleport for a single target costs me 5 (target being myself or another). Increase spell cost by 5 for every additional target. The Wizard could potentially do this, but at a signficant cost to his ability for the day. The Thief on the other hand could pick the lock and the Wizard keeps his points for whatever they may encounter.

Magic is magic and it should be fantastic and capable of many things. However just because you can use magic, doesn't always mean you should. It should cost something to cast. It always bothered me though that I memorized a certain spell for a day and after I cast it, it was almost like I forgot it. I have the knowledge so I should keep that knowledge. It makes sense for me not to have the capacity to cast something like a fireball all day or hop around the globe teleporting at will, but to forget the way to do it? Never made much sense to me.

I like the idea of ramping up a particuar spell in a certain situation. Why wait to a certain level to cast a more powerful fireball? Let me pour everything I have into that one blast. Yeah it leaves me somewhat incapacitated for the remainder of the day but maybe I made a difference in the battle. Heck you could even take it a bit further. If I run out of spell points for the day I could start dipping into my own hit points. That would allow for the ultimate expression of potentially giving my life up to help the group and let me go out in a blaze of glory.

There are many options to address this, and trust me I know what I wrote above isn't all that detailed or something even all that unique.



I wrote about that in another thread.  I proposed an Endurance Point system that all characters used, melee and magic, just for different things.

I really do want to see more options return for all characters.  Larger spell lists for wizards, but also powers and the like for non-casters.  I think melee based classes should have a "spell list" as well, but for non-magical, class based abilities.  A wizard might eventually be able to magically create a hole in the wall, or teleport the party into a room, but a fighter might be able to bash a hole through the ceiling in one round, or a rogue might be able to leap all anime style hundreds of feet into the air... all for an endurance cost.
I personally think that traditional spellcasters should mostly be Vancian, i.e. preparing spells ahead of time and then in the heat of the battle letting out the final incantation to actually cast the spell, but they shouldn't be limited to simply daily spell-casting. Some spells, like cantrips, should most definitely be at-will. I also think that magic missile absolutely deserves to be an at-will. It should be every Wizard's go-to combat spell when they run out of other stuff to cast for the day.

Pretty soon you guys will have argued yourselves right back to AEDU ;)

There's a good reason for that too. It is a real solid general approach that works pretty well. There could be a number of variations though. Spells could for instance have a number of levels and you can only have N levels worth of spells at any given time. There is not absolute need to 'bin' spells either. Any given level can simply have spells of any use type. Daily use versions of things could be lower level, encounter versions could simply be higher level. You'd start out tossing your fireball once a day, but at high levels an encounter use version would easily fit in your repertoire, or you could stick with the daily one and instead pick several other daily powers to get more variety.

Perhaps utility powers could ALL be castable 'ritually' or memorizable for instant use (but many of them would be quite expensive to memorize). You wouldn't normally memorize most of them, but some would be best that way (IE featherfall and such).

The question is how do you do all this and not break the game? Perhaps fighters etc would do basically the same thing, but the variation for their powers would be mostly along the lines of how hard they hit. You can keep clubbing the guy with your mace, but you're only getting one or two chances to really hit him hard in one shot. Again, not really different from AEDU, but with choice of use frequency of powers and some other tricks like well, tricks that are powers you can make the fighter quite able to run around and do his job, and you can give him his own 'rituals'.

In fact you could construct one single system like this, it becomes very close to a point buy kind of system, but reimagined somewhat, and both very close to AEDU and Vancian magic (which are pretty close already).
That is not dead which may eternal lie

When looking back at 3e, I think one of the best innovations for arcane casters was the warlock. He got evocation right off the bat (eldritch blast), and could choose to specialize in that, or he could take a number of iconic (albeit selfish) invocations to aid him... and, in a round-about way, his allies. In addition, he could use the hell out of magic devices.

Why not look at the 5e spellcaster being along those lines? Let the arcanist have an inherent evocation blow stuff up and burn it down to the ground ability with the option to either specialize in that ability or to gain access to selfish or at least limited at-will abilities. Throw in the ability to research scrolls and craft magic devices to enhance their versatility (single use scrolls or charge use staffs), and you still have an iconic magic wielding wizard. Divine casters could be run the same way, granting them an inherent healing ability they can either specialize in or gain access to other at-will abilities.

Just a thought.




yes the warlock was difrent, looking back i think it was almost a experiment to see how players would react to characters that would break the spell casting system as it had been up till that point. and could use powers at will.
basicly it was a hint for things to come in 4th.

basicly i think it might be the same with essentials classes, almost had the fealing they wanted to do more with them but felt like they were restrained by the 4th edition core books.

they also hinter at high character customisation.
the ruleset with the most character customisation so far is 2nd edition skills and powers.

so i woulden't be suprised if 5th edition would be somthing like 
essentials meets skills and powers 
 
I think perhaps an intresting way to handle the spell list idea and not allowing a caster to be the be all end all is perhaps already used in another product that WotC makes, that product being Star Wars Saga Edition. I think that the method that is used there could be adapted to be used in DnD 5th. Imagine you get a feat every 3 or 4 level from taking levels in wizard or other spell casting class that gives you a number of spells equal to your spell casting stat mod for that class, you then select a number of spells off of a spell list that is restricted by caster level. So a level 1-3 caster may select any spell of the first level spells off of their spell list and may use them one per encounter or may select the same power mulitiple times so that it may be used more than once an encounter, where a level 4-6 caster could selects spells off the 2nd level spell list. I think this would allow for the developement of the classic wizard but make him feel less all powerful. Spellcraft could also be used something like a use the force check/ a skill to determine what magic is in effect where and when.

so a wizard with lets say 16 intel with a mod of +3, at level 1, would get to select lets say 6 1st level spells known but may only perpare 4, a sorc on the other hand with 16 cha (mod+3 at level 1) would get 3 spells known and could use some of his spells twice per encounter. I think this would result in casters that differed but were balanced in abilities and usefulness to the party.

Thoughts, ideas, critics? 
I would like them to have the spell list like in 3.5.....with just combat spells....they need to keep Rituals
I would like them to have the spell list like in 3.5.....with just combat spells....they need to keep Rituals

I agree but I would add some utility spells as well such as invisibiltiy, knock, maybe fly or d-door. Leave Rituals for the big guns like planar bindings, opening gates to other planes, and bring back the dead ( as living people or undead creatures) or I guess stuff that would happen generally out of combat...

From a purely mechanics point of view, I was a fan of Saga's Force powers. I could easily see them being reworked into standard D&D spells, but the main drawback to this is scale.

Standard 3e used 9 levels of spells (if you don't count cantrips and orisons), whereas Saga implemented a DC based resolution system when using Force powers. One could scale more powerful spells with higher Spellcraft DCs to cast (DC 10 for 1st level up to DC 50 for 9th level), or radically alter what magic can do in the system and bring the DC range down to a moderate DC 10 to DC 35 range (assuming a level cap of 20). Letting all spells be available to spellcasters (maybe even doing away with such classifications as arcane and divine magic), a spellcaster could select more powerful spells, but the likelihood of them successfully casting them would be lowered.

Also, having spells act more like Force powers, it would allow specialist casters to take the same spell multiple times so they could use it more often during an encounter, and it would reward casters for natural 20 Spellcraft checks by returning to them all of their expended spells. Certain spells would work better with scaling DCs (such as evocation spells that could deal more damage with higher DCs), while others would have fixed DCs (such as those spells that have an all or nothing effect, like raise dead). Some spells, in this system, could be simplified and streamlined to make them easier to understand, while others might serve to only complicate the mechanics.

I'm not a spellologist, so I don't really know.

I think perhaps an intresting way to handle the spell list idea and not allowing a caster to be the be all end all is perhaps already used in another product that WotC makes, that product being Star Wars Saga Edition. I think that the method that is used there could be adapted to be used in DnD 5th. Imagine you get a feat every 3 or 4 level from taking levels in wizard or other spell casting class that gives you a number of spells equal to your spell casting stat mod for that class, you then select a number of spells off of a spell list that is restricted by caster level. So a level 1-3 caster may select any spell of the first level spells off of their spell list and may use them one per encounter or may select the same power mulitiple times so that it may be used more than once an encounter, where a level 4-6 caster could selects spells off the 2nd level spell list. I think this would allow for the developement of the classic wizard but make him feel less all powerful. Spellcraft could also be used something like a use the force check/ a skill to determine what magic is in effect where and when.

so a wizard with lets say 16 intel with a mod of +3, at level 1, would get to select lets say 6 1st level spells known but may only perpare 4, a sorc on the other hand with 16 cha (mod+3 at level 1) would get 3 spells known and could use some of his spells twice per encounter. I think this would result in casters that differed but were balanced in abilities and usefulness to the party.

Thoughts, ideas, critics? 



That sounds an awful lot like the way 3.x handled magic.

I personally think the Vancian system is both a little silly (the fluff of 'forgetting' a spell after casting it) and difficult to balance (too many options makes balancing each one against the others increasingly difficult). I think the idea of the AEDU system and rituals was great, though the implementation may have been lacking.

The ability to balance the AEDU system was a fantastic addition to the game. However, the way it limited class design was unfortunate. I would favor a tweak on this system with some new fluff to explain it.

For example, martial classes may gain access to a certain number of encounter powers. At 7th level they might be able to use 3 of them an encounter, 3 pulled from a larger pool, chosen at the moment they are used. You could use the same power 3 times, or 3 different powers, depending on the circumstances. An arcane class would gain a similiar set of daily powers (spells). They would have both a bigger pool to draw from and be able to cast more of them, but it would be a daily resource rather than an encounter resource. Other systems could also be included, one that mixed encounters and dailies (like for a cleric) or one that augmented at-wills (like psions do now) or any number of other variations on that general theme that would provide a system with a lot of design flexibility while leaving the classes relatively easy to balance against each other.

I still think that rituals are the best way to deal with most of the 3.x spell list. Wizards should have some advantage for casting them, and perhaps exclusive access to some of them, but it is a fairly elegant solution for all the 'utility' spells that old 3.x wizards had in their spell lists. 
Yeah, I like that cause then it makes even a level 1 spell that you like still work at higher levels but there would need to be some type of damage restriction based off of level other wise it could be maxed mined quiet easily. I would like to have levels of magic available only to certain levels of casters though... like restrict spell choice based off caster level 1-3 = only level 1 spells, 4-6= level one or level 2 spell... so on, but I like the idea of results being based off of spell craft that would be intresting and makes magic less absolute.  Maybe always a chance of mishap on natural one ... lol maybe that would be going to far but could be fun.

I entirely miss the ability for my wizard/spell caster to have the ability to overcome nearly any obstacle with the correct amount of preperation and R&D.


Ugh. 



I'd like the spell lists back, but I'd also like an accompanying bump to non casters.

Bring non casters up to the level of casters rather than dragging casters down to non caster levels.

I'd love to play a fighter who had the same versatility as any of my casters.
I always liked the way 4e Shadowrun did their casters, you roll to cast for concentration and roll after the spell to determine the physical toll on the caster. You could fast low level spells all day, if you are lucky. If you try to throw around a bunch of heavy magics, you would end up unconscious or dead from the strain.
I want the AD&D spell list

the 3.X one was bloated into a "solve any problem" laundry list.
I want the AD&D spell list

the 3.X one was bloated into a "solve any problem" laundry list.


I agree.  It's very flavorful and very useful. 
Author of Elementalism in Atlas Games' Occult Lore. DAZ 3D
I want the AD&D spell list

the 3.X one was bloated into a "solve any problem" laundry list.



Someone never read the Wizard's Spell Compendium, a 4-volume set of nothing but wizard spells.

I assure you, 3.X never got close to the level of spell bloat that AD&D had.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
I'd like the spell lists back, but I'd also like an accompanying bump to non casters.

Bring non casters up to the level of casters rather than dragging casters down to non caster levels.

I'd love to play a fighter who had the same versatility as any of my casters.



I'd love a whole separate book with Martial, Arcane, Radiant, Primal, and Shadow Powers 
I want the AD&D spell list

the 3.X one was bloated into a "solve any problem" laundry list.




I'll second this.

Perhaps, if WotC wants to return to a larger, more flavorful list, they could always bring in AD&D caster limitations as well. % chance to learn spell, had to find spell scrolls to scribe and loosing spells with any damage - etc...
Learn about Liberty: http://www.youtube.com/user/LearnLiberty Free Market Capitalism is the truest, and best hope for man kind. IMAGE(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p157/Rumek_Testament/NeoGrognardextracroped.jpg) Visit my blog at: www.theneogrognard.blogspot.com
I'd be fine with bringing spell ists back and then giving a (ToM)binder-esque list of abilities to non casters-reflavored obviously.
What really makes me miss Spell-lists is the connection it gives to the character.  It's not just your character looking through lists of spells and considering pros in cons, it's you as a player doing the same.  I remember burying myself in a few core and expansion books trying to figure out "what I want to bring to that fight against the dragon" even on a couple clerics.

Not havin an "i overshadow the rest of the party" button is acceptable.  I always thought the climb skill was useless when spider climb is a 2nd level spell and so on.

Daily spells? yeah I can do away with those.  Having a set number of spells memorized, and then a fatigue system that you can cast any of them as much or little as you want? (Sort of like the World of Warcraft Sword and Socerery mages, but...less with the MASSIVE number of casts per day)  Or a spellcraft check to see if a spell casts or not.

Rituals ARE utility spells, just often more expensive.

Bring back wacky material components.  They allow players to use some spells that are VERY powerful but only a couple times (if that).
I would much prefer sticking with the AEDU system, possibly with something else replacing the D.  I think that now that the Developers have a systems worth of experience using AEDU under their belts they could do some really great things with it.  

I hate Vancian magic with a bloody passion.  I absolutely will not ever again play a class that uses it.

If they put it in the game, fine, options are good, whatever, but there had better be a non-Vancian arcane option at launch.
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.