Why I believe 5th edition will be something new.

I believe 5th edition D&D will be something new for various reasons. These are purely opinionated statements.



  • Will not be like 3rd edition: Simple, Paizo has that market in the bag. People don't play Pathfinder because there is nothing else to play. If they really wanted D&D's 3.5 then they would play it. People play Pathfinder because it gives them what they want.

  • Will not be like 4th edition: Apparently if 4th edition was such a success then we wouldn't be having this conversation. If they wanted to create an edition that was like 4th edition then that would be a waste of time because they could easily take 4th edition and tweak it to what they think the majority wants. They wouldn't need a 5th edition to do that. 

  • Will be it's own thing: The only way Wizards is going to get people from Pathfinder and keep people that play 4th edition is to create a new game that hopefully both sets of people like. In my opinion this would be the best option.


With 4th edition not lasting as long as was expected and it essentially being one of the shortest editions, I really wouldn't see Wizards trying to mimic much from that edition. Like any new edition, there will be some things carried over that may have not been really defined by a particular edition. I could be completely wrong about this but this is how I feel about the whole thing.


I also think they will back up from the digital age a bit. DDI was very convenient but it wasn't very practical because you would have people who never needed to buy a book and could play D&D just by spending a few quid a month. It's one of those situations where it's great for the customer but bad for the business and when it becomes bad for the business it eventually becomes bad for the customer because it can't be sustained. 

Xun,


I hope you are right, but I don't think you are.  Some points:


1.  The idea that 5E will be a game for everyone should be dismissed outright for the marketing pap that it is.  You are not going to please everyone especially given the deep divide and bitterness that equates "what's good for Pathfinder/3.5 is bad for DnD and vice versa" attitude.  If you try to please everyone, you please no one.

2.  The OGL is still out there and still going strong and Wotc will always have to compete with it or coopt it.  Given how well (not) competition has worked, I think Tony Vargas is right in saying that Wotc will be forced to adopt the old OGL and that means much of the 3.5 system that goes with it.

3.  The Current designers (both Cook and Mearls) seem to regard 4E as a nightmare best forgotten and Cook was intimately involved in the creation of 3E and Mearls openly advocates a retro return to ADnD/BCEMI.  Neither bode well for what you are talking about.


In short, I hope you're right, but I don't think you are.


-Polaris


Edit PS:  One more additional point I just remembered.  I don't think WOTC CAN back off their digital initiative.  If the Escapist/Insider Articles are at all correct (and I think they are), then DND has to post a 50 million dollar mark with a trajectory upwards and quickly  (within a year of the new edition would be my best guess), or Hasbro will pull the plug and DND as a marketed product line will die.  The only way they can do that is to push the digital initiative with an eye to the MMO market. 
I believe 5th edition D&D will be something new for various reasons. These are purely opinionated statements.



  • Will not be like 3rd edition: Simple, Paizo has that market in the bag. People don't play Pathfinder because there is nothing else to play. If they really wanted D&D's 3.5 then they would play it. People play Pathfinder because it gives them what they want.

  • Will not be like 4th edition: Apparently if 4th edition was such a success then we wouldn't be having this conversation. If they wanted to create an edition that was like 4th edition then that would be a waste of time because they could easily take 4th edition and tweak it to what they think the majority wants. They wouldn't need a 5th edition to do that. 

  • Will be it's own thing: The only way Wizards is going to get people from Pathfinder and keep people that play 4th edition is to create a new game that hopefully both sets of people like. In my opinion this would be the best option.


With 4th edition not lasting as long as was expected and it essentially being one of the shortest editions, I really wouldn't see Wizards trying to mimic much from that edition. Like any new edition, there will be some things carried over that may have not been really defined by a particular edition. I could be completely wrong about this but this is how I feel about the whole thing.


I also think they will back up from the digital age a bit. DDI was very convenient but it wasn't very practical because you would have people who never needed to buy a book and could play D&D just by spending a few quid a month. It's one of those situations where it's great for the customer but bad for the business and when it becomes bad for the business it eventually becomes bad for the customer because it can't be sustained. 




 In fact I agree with your conculsion Ill break it down by point.

1st point well stated there is already such a game in production why would they want such built in competion.

2nd point I like many inovations of 4e I think it is however becoming too Kludged with rules updates. I hope then incorporate some 4e into the game, however I am prepared that they wont.

3rd point indeed it will be hard enough, maybe impossible, to be inclusive with both the 3e loyalist and the 4e guardians,  if they re-tread either game it would be impossible.     
I'm second from the left in the picture.


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i think it will be more like 'what numbers do we need to use to let people play 1st-4e pcs at the same table?' ie what damage, what hit bonuses etc.


its kind of like what labyrinth lord did with its advanced edition companion and original edition companion. actually so much like it that they might have gotten the idea from them


of course ascending ac alone will keep thousands from buying it, but i wouldnt be surprised if ac was the only 'basic' defense with anything else being an add-on

What I am truly hoping is that it has the same vibe that 1st & 2nd  edition had; I didn't mind 3rd edition but I think the best times I had was with 1st & 2nd edition.

Jeff Martin Play Tester AD&D 1st & 2nd editions Charter Member: The Company Of The Wolf Gaming Guild

I would agree with most of the OPs insights but one, the last one. The digital age is killing the LFGS from more directions than one. I have purchased almost all of the books but rarely take any of them to a game. I believe in supporting game stores but my discussions with owners leads me to believe in the inevitability of their demise. I don't like saying it but unless something changes, areas of business that don't adapt will become extinct. We all want it cheap and we want it now, and that is the current trend.

I will now go back to my room and cry about my post.
eh i still go to game shops when im travelling and look for 1e stuff. i also get tiles at game shops. but big books? never
eh i still go to game shops when im travelling and look for 1e stuff. i also get tiles at game shops. but big books? never

That is very niche of you.

i think it will be more like 'what numbers do we need to use to let people play 1st-4e pcs at the same table?' ie what damage, what hit bonuses etc.


its kind of like what labyrinth lord did with its advanced edition companion and original edition companion. actually so much like it that they might have gotten the idea from them


of course ascending ac alone will keep thousands from buying it, but i wouldnt be surprised if ac was the only 'basic' defense with anything else being an add-on




A lot of neo old school stuff, uses ascending ac. S&W and LotFP, in particular. I'm fine with either, though I have a slight preference for descending.

It's easily convertible, with the real issue being the bounded nature of the descending tables. I've ran very high level AD&D and never used an AC better than -6. As opposed to AC's of 40+ in 3e. 

of course ascending ac alone will keep thousands from buying it, but i wouldnt be surprised if ac was the only 'basic' defense with anything else being an add-on




Ascendign AC was THAt big of a deal to the old grognards?  I think ascending AC/Attack bonuses was one of the very best innovations of 3e and up.  2e, for me (the edition I started on, I am only barely too young for 1e), was needlessly complicated with rules that were more of a hindrance to play and to fun.

For me, I shudder that 5e is even in the works.  My bookshelf of 4e products literally bows with weight.  I didn't want to give up 3.5e, either, but reading the design noted for 4e made it to tempting to pass up, and I discovered I liekd it.  I hope 5e will keep what was good (giving classes more options) and get rid of what was "bad" (I prefered 3.x's style of magic).

of course ascending ac alone will keep thousands from buying it, but i wouldnt be surprised if ac was the only 'basic' defense with anything else being an add-on




Ascendign AC was THAt big of a deal to the old grognards?



It was. One beardneck I spoke to told me that THAC0 was great because it "kept the idiots out."

I think ascending AC/Attack bonuses was one of the very best innovations of 3e and up.



In 100% agreeance here. I never wrapped my head around how sometimes, a bonus is a negative number, and a penelty a positive number, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, a bonus is a positive number and a penelty a negative number.

For me, I shudder that 5e is even in the works.



Me too, but not because I dread the new edition. I dread, instead, the two years of grognardy debates as to who's fun is BADWRONGFUN.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Defenders: We ARE the wall!

 

I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D.

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.

of course ascending ac alone will keep thousands from buying it, but i wouldnt be surprised if ac was the only 'basic' defense with anything else being an add-on




Ascendign AC was THAt big of a deal to the old grognards?



It was. One beardneck I spoke to told me that THAC0 was great because it "kept the idiots out."



It wasn't. A lot of people playing old school games use ascending ac. 

Some gamers (not beardnecks, or any other ugly little derogatory term, you apparently like to use for your fellow gamers and human beings) don't like ascending ac. Some don't really care. Swords & Wizardry, one of the most popular of the retro-clones, has optional ascending ac. LotFP uses ascending ac.
Xun,


I hope you are right, but I don't think you are.  Some points:


1.  The idea that 5E will be a game for everyone should be dismissed outright for the marketing pap that it is.  You are not going to please everyone especially given the deep divide and bitterness that equates "what's good for Pathfinder/3.5 is bad for DnD and vice versa" attitude.  If you try to please everyone, you please no one.

2.  The OGL is still out there and still going strong and Wotc will always have to compete with it or coopt it.  Given how well (not) competition has worked, I think Tony Vargas is right in saying that Wotc will be forced to adopt the old OGL and that means much of the 3.5 system that goes with it.

3.  The Current designers (both Cook and Mearls) seem to regard 4E as a nightmare best forgotten and Cook was intimately involved in the creation of 3E and Mearls openly advocates a retro return to ADnD/BCEMI.  Neither bode well for what you are talking about.


In short, I hope you're right, but I don't think you are.


-Polaris


Edit PS:  One more additional point I just remembered.  I don't think WOTC CAN back off their digital initiative.  If the Escapist/Insider Articles are at all correct (and I think they are), then DND has to post a 50 million dollar mark with a trajectory upwards and quickly  (within a year of the new edition would be my best guess), or Hasbro will pull the plug and DND as a marketed product line will die.  The only way they can do that is to push the digital initiative with an eye to the MMO market. 



Well I'm not talking about taking the best of both editions and bring them together to create one. Instead of looking like you are catering to one and not the other it would be best to come up with a third option and hope that as many people as possible like it.

It's actually all down to who they think will spend the most money. It looks to me like too many walked away and not enough came in to fill it's place.
What ever happened to that skirmish game we were hearing about? It was supposed to be a new way to play. Could 5th be what they were talking about?
You all seem to think that pathfinder took all of the 3.5 market and that is just not the case. What really happened is pathfinder got those people who wanted to play dnd but could no longer find the old 3.5 books.

While pathfinder is 5 times the size of 4edition twice as many people still just say and play 3.5 rather then pathfinder and use all those old resources. (solving for how big 4e really is is kinda funny btw).

Pathfinder is just a rewrite for a new generation, nothing new or really even fixed. Of course this makes perfect sense when you consider that many did not consider 3.5 broken. It and D20 was such a large huge mess that every individual group only ever used parts of it anyway. It was far more a mother may I rather then do this or I take my toys and go home type system.

There is plenty of room for a new system that fixes the problems of 3.5 that could still appeal to all of the 3.5 crowd. It was just that those fixes could be taken many different ways and the way chose in 4.0 just did not get it done for the majority.

The whole boondoggle could have been avoided if they just did a bit more market testing first and actually listened instead of doing whatever the hell they wanted. Ma bell had some of the best commercials I have ever seen, even to this day I remember the second class phones jingle. They still lost the market share because the reality was not only were they not better they were worse.
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Man, if WotC offered all the 3.5 books as PDFs with erratta already done in the PDFs? I think a lot less people would have gone to Pathfinder.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Defenders: We ARE the wall!

 

I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D.

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.
What ever happened to that skirmish game we were hearing about? It was supposed to be a new way to play. Could 5th be what they were talking about?



I hope not.  If the game gets more tactically-focused, as a "skirmish" game implies, I won't pick it up.  Heck, if it maintains the current level of tactical focus I'll probably give it a pass.  That's one of the major reasons I gave up on 4E.  
At least I have my proper avatar now, I guess. But man is this cloud dark.
What ever happened to that skirmish game we were hearing about? It was supposed to be a new way to play. Could 5th be what they were talking about?



trevor confirmed thats not 5e
What ever happened to that skirmish game we were hearing about? It was supposed to be a new way to play. Could 5th be what they were talking about?



It's a bridge product, to keep up some revenue flow between the "4e is dead so why buy any more books" period and the release of 5e.
A few quotes from some people working on the game:



  • "I'm the lead designer of a project that will likely evolve into a new iteration of the Dungeons & Dragons ruleset. It's meant to be a set of rules that unites all the previous editions, and the players of those editions. It's a big project, and we plan on involving all comers to playtest and voice their opinions, because really, what's the point of designing a game no one wants to play? And who knows better what D&D players want than, well, D&D players. " - Monte Cook.

  • "I don't think 'requiring someone to be a healer' is a sacred cow, but having healers in the game is. I wouldn't want to see D&D do away with healing, but I don't think there's anything keeping us from exploring a version of D&D where players can simply play anything they want, ignoring concepts like role and function when putting together their party." - Rodney Thompson.

  • "So if you are a diehard BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia enthusiast or have embraced 4th edition, loved 2nd edition, 3rd edition, or never moved on from 1st edition, we’re creating this game for you. Imagine a game where you can play the version of D&D you love best. And then imagine everyone plays at the same table, in the same adventure." - Robert Schwalb.

  • The Future of Dungeons & Dragons by D&D's Senior Art Director, Jon Schindehette (who will also be writing some articles for DDI "to talk about the creative process involved with the creation of D&D, and the art and artists of Dungeons & Dragons" starting in February).

  • Teos Abadia was another one present at WotC for the early playtest, and his thoughts are here. (Thanks to Shawn).

  • "And although of course no one can possibly speak with actual authority of the future on this topic, I can assure you that the OGL issues that plagued 4th Edition's release are lessons that did not go unheeded." - Bruce Cordell.



Well according to Monte they have found a way to try and please everyone.



Well according to Monte they have found a way to try and please everyone.





Yeah, and snow is black.  I have no doubt that Monte thinks he's found a way that he thinks will appeal to all DnDers in his opinion but if hard history has shown us anything (for pretty much any product line), if you try to appeal to everyone, you wind up appealing to no one.

Given the mutual dislike between the 4E and PF crowd, given the large divide between them, and given their demands will be greatly different (and given that the PF crowd always has a game they like), I simply think appealing to everyone is simply impossible.  It's nice to see that Wotc has discovered that they should have kept their original customer base together.  Unfortunately they seem to have discovered this four years too late, and that ship has sailed.


-Polaris     



Well according to Monte they have found a way to try and please everyone.





Yeah, and snow is black.  I have no doubt that Monte thinks he's found a way that he thinks will appeal to all DnDers in his opinion but if hard history has shown us anything (for pretty much any product line), if you try to appeal to everyone, you wind up appealing to no one.

Given the mutual dislike between the 4E and PF crowd, given the large divide between them, and given their demands will be greatly different (and given that the PF crowd always has a game they like), I simply think appealing to everyone is simply impossible.  It's nice to see that Wotc has discovered that they should have kept their original customer base together.  Unfortunately they seem to have discovered this four years too late, and that ship has sailed.


-Polaris     


There are people out there that don't like the fact that other people like 4e or 3.5 there is no way they will be able to please everyone.

You could have people play whatever rules they like best and have the person across the table play by the rules they like best, some magic happens at the DM level where those rules work together and they are having so much fun it looks like they're all on a combination of nitrous, Mary Jane and Ambrosia and a 4th DnD guy will still look at the table and say "That's absolutely stupid, I can't believe you guys are having fun buncha morons...I remember back in the day when we did it right." 

I really like 4th it got me back into DnD after well over a decade of being gone. I know we'll switch to 5th and I'll spend the money buy I'm worried it'll be a waste of money.