So, how will 4e be trashed to bring in the new edition?

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Just as 4e was launched by taking a poo on 3e, what are all of the terrible flaws of 4e that will be brought to light?
It splintered the fanbase.

It relied too heavily on errata.

It strayed to far from previous concepts and slaughtered too many sacred cows.

4e kills kittens. It's true, 5e told me so.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
my fave was people claiming they couldnt rp with 4e, when the fact was they just cant rp
The people in my D&D group felt that is was a dumbed down game. For me, it was meh. 3.5 is more entertaining and interesting to. I think 4e just did not have much depth to it.`

I am not a rules mechanics expert, I will leave that to others. But here is how Wizards lost me as a customer:

1) They screwed over the players who were were using character generators for 3.5.
    a) There was that POS character generator (e-Tools) they originally produced that didn't work.
    b) They didn't want to allow the PCgen developers to create free datasets.
    c) After I spent hundreds of dollars buying datasets from Code Monkey Publishing, they cut CMP off at the knees eventually destroying their efforts and leaving me with an incomplete datasets representative of the 3.5   books.

2) Using goon lawyers they threw their weight around, harassing those who opposed them

3) They refused to sell electronic PDF copies of the3.5 D&D books to their customers.

4) The made seemingly idiotic staf personnel changes.

That's enogh for right now.

John
my fave was people claiming they couldnt rp with 4e, when the fact was they just cant rp



Yeah, I hate that argument.

I at least acknowledge I like the mechanics that they used to have because I thought some of them were fun and interesting mechanics (such as guidelines on how to research spells, even the old alignment system) - not because they were needed for roleplaying.  
Welcome to ZomboniLand - My D&D Blog http://zomboniland.blogspot.com/
my fave was people claiming they couldnt rp with 4e, when the fact was they just cant rp



I have the perfect rebuttle.

/rolls diplomacy check

20! Ah! I just won this argument.



I hate it when people say things like that too, though I (hope) your's was more tounge-in-cheek.

Back in 2nd - in every game I played, the character with the highest CHA was the one who did the talking. Why? Because they were the one who had the highest "reaction roll" bonus. Even in the Baldur's Gate RPG - you did the same thing for the reaction modifier.

3rd wasn't any better, it had diplomacy and DCs the same as well.

It's like as soon as 4e came about people decided to forget everything they know about roleplaying and just hound on the dice rolling.

It's like watching people drive after the first snow of the season, despite them being native to the area. They forget everything they knew and start to complain about it.
Welcome to ZomboniLand - My D&D Blog http://zomboniland.blogspot.com/
my fave was people claiming they couldnt rp with 4e, when the fact was they just cant rp



I have the perfect rebuttle.

/rolls diplomacy check

20! Ah! I just won this argument.



I hate it when people say things like that too, though I (hope) your's was more tounge-in-cheek.



Isn't he making fun of 3e there? I thought he was making fun of 3e's diplomacy result chart.
4e's the edition where you can say "nope, diplomacy is an auto failure in this situation" (I was trying to negotiate with a hostile mushroom)
I'm kind of confused here.


my fave was people claiming they couldnt rp with 4e, when the fact was they just cant rp



I have the perfect rebuttle.

/rolls diplomacy check

20! Ah! I just won this argument.



I hate it when people say things like that too, though I (hope) your's was more tounge-in-cheek.



Isn't he making fun of 3e there? I thought he was making fun of 3e's diplomacy result chart.
4e's the edition where you can say "nope, diplomacy is an auto failure in this situation" (I was trying to negotiate with a hostile mushroom)
I'm kind of confused here.





I've heard people make that accusation towards 4e before, that skill challenges are just a series of dice rolling. 

Though if it was a jab at 3rd, I would defend 3rd edition in a similar way, it really comes down to the Players and DM on their ability to roleplay - the rules help, and they assist those who can't/won't/shouldn't try to to roleplay when they are in game groups with those who do, as well as giving the DM an out for the "grey areas"
Welcome to ZomboniLand - My D&D Blog http://zomboniland.blogspot.com/
My opinion?  in order to make a next version of D&D for everybody they are going to start sweet talking all editions including 4e.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

I suspect Herrozerro is right. The new modus operandi in terms of tone seems to be to praise every version of D&D. The people at Wizards apparently realize that their own trashing of previous editions helped to fuel edition wars and the fracturing of their customer base, at least a little.
All they need do for me is make something almost as balanced* as 4E with shorter combats - about 30 mins would be ideal. Anything imported from any other version or game system that doesn't conflict with that goal is fine. When moving from 3.5 to 4, I missed the amount of time (not capability) lost that we otherwise had for noodling around, problem solving and chatting in character, just so we could get 2 encounters in of an evening.

So I expect to see combat length, if not trashed, then addressed somehow. Perhaps if Herrozerro is right, by praising earlier versions for still being immersive (in an RP sense), but taking ~15 mins to run a fight. If only we could have that with dynamic movement on the board, plus a nice power balance between all the possible fantasy character themes . . .

* balanced between players (and by extension, PCs) during play, combat and non-combat. I'd guess this comes down to character creation systems where it's not possible to majorly sacrifice rp options versus combat efficiency, or skill-monkey versus fighting prowess, or short-term weakness versus long-term godhood.
Shorter combats in 3.5....

"Hey, I'm running a 9th level wizard and I sneeze."

"Okay guys, fight's over. Let's move on to the next room so the wizard can sneeze again."
The biggest flaw in 4e:
Chuck Norris did not get his own character like he did in WoW. He should have. After all, 4e is Wow.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
This thread really isn't negative enough people, I expect better from you. We only have 1 genuine trash talker out of 12 posts? Pathetic!
That is not dead which may eternal lie
Hmmm welll it will involves Mike Mearles dissing narrative play style on the Escapist and anyone able describe there own thing as not the target audience for D&D and so on and so forth.
 
The game itself will be undermined. People will compain about feats being too powerful so they will make them even more so then play without using them themselves.
Oh and combats will be shortened so they are swingier and powers that take in combat planning to pull off diminish like unfriendly wizard spells also making powers like regeneration and anything triggered by the bloodied condition much less desireable. (dont want fighters with a useful daily power). Martial dailies will be gradually nerfed in various ways trying to make them more pseudo realistic.
Combat advantage will become easier to achieve so that Flanking and positional benefits become less useful, similarly undermining the tactical element.

Cats will sleep with dogs in a very carnal fashion and a 4e hater will be hired to show case the new edition.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

my fave was people claiming they couldnt rp with 4e, when the fact was they just cant rp



I have the perfect rebuttle.

/rolls diplomacy check

20! Ah! I just won this argument.



You didn't put any skill points in to diplomacy so you lose. Tongue Out

Cats will sleep with dogs in a very carnal fashion and a 4e hater will be hired to show case the new edition.



Didnt they already do this?!?
Cats will sleep with dogs in a very carnal fashion and a 4e hater will be hired to show case the new edition.



Didnt they already do this?!?





Well no felines and canines going at it locally.... that parts different.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

OgreBattle has hit upon the key dilemma that WOTC is facing:

The only way to justify 5e is by saying 4e was bad, which in turn undermines its credibility about anything it said about 4e. That, in turn, only alienates customers like myself who bought 4e, enjoyed it, and put up the bumps along the way.


 
basically
We already have them linking articles about how "4e might have been designed to be an MMO"
"Even though we made 4e and created this situation, we can't stand that there are edition wars going on right now. That's dividing our community. 

"The only way to solve this problem is to create a new edition."
 
"Even though we made 4e and created this situation, we can't stand that there are edition wars going on right now. That's dividing our community. 

"The only way to solve this problem is to create a new edition."
 



Can you say that with real monotone zombie sound.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

MUST... BUY... D&D...
one of the playtesters of 5e said they basically are looking at a 2013 gencon release, so it looks like they will shoot this dog pretty quickly. i also think that means its more together than people think, with a lot less room for players to influence the material. but since it looks like most players ideas are in conflict w each other on everything from ability scores to the kind of elves in the books, its no surprise many ideas will be left behind, if they were ever even read in the first place
my fave was people claiming they couldnt rp with 4e, when the fact was they just cant rp

I lol'd

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Look at my Playable Illithid, my Monster Generating excel file , my Lifestealer in progresss (Heroic tier almost complete!) , our Improved Orc, our Improving Kenku and our Improving Duergar
Also, take a look at my friend's Improved Minotaur, Gadren's amazing Arcane Archer and of course the Avatar Project
More links! Qube's Block Builder, Classless D&D and the characters I've created using the classless system.
one of the playtesters of 5e said they basically are looking at a 2013 gencon release, so it looks like they will shoot this dog pretty quickly. i also think that means its more together than people think, with a lot less room for players to influence the material. but since it looks like most players ideas are in conflict w each other on everything from ability scores to the kind of elves in the books, its no surprise many ideas will be left behind, if they were ever even read in the first place

Is there anyway we can make a single thread were everybody agrees with one another? If a 3page thread on "Yes, XP is good since its a good way for new DMs to advance their players and the most comfortable way to balance encounters so far" where everybody agrees, will the developers think "huh, they all agree. I think we should listen to them... it is 3 pages long after all"?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Look at my Playable Illithid, my Monster Generating excel file , my Lifestealer in progresss (Heroic tier almost complete!) , our Improved Orc, our Improving Kenku and our Improving Duergar
Also, take a look at my friend's Improved Minotaur, Gadren's amazing Arcane Archer and of course the Avatar Project
More links! Qube's Block Builder, Classless D&D and the characters I've created using the classless system.
one of the playtesters of 5e said they basically are looking at a 2013 gencon release, so it looks like they will shoot this dog pretty quickly. i also think that means its more together than people think, with a lot less room for players to influence the material. but since it looks like most players ideas are in conflict w each other on everything from ability scores to the kind of elves in the books, its no surprise many ideas will be left behind, if they were ever even read in the first place

Is there anyway we can make a single thread were everybody agrees with one another? If a 3page thread on "Yes, XP is good since its a good way for new DMs to advance their players and the most comfortable way to balance encounters so far" where everybody agrees, will the developers think "huh, they all agree. I think we should listen to them... it is 3 pages long after all"?



no, bc ive already seen a thread titled 'can we finally get rid of xp'

there are few if any agreements. every single facet of the game has more than one opinion on it, from cosmology, to classes, to skill systems, to combat and on and on
one of the playtesters of 5e said they basically are looking at a 2013 gencon release, so it looks like they will shoot this dog pretty quickly. i also think that means its more together than people think, with a lot less room for players to influence the material. but since it looks like most players ideas are in conflict w each other on everything from ability scores to the kind of elves in the books, its no surprise many ideas will be left behind, if they were ever even read in the first place

Of course many ideas will be left behind. This is more the real issue in this kind of process for WotC. It requires a lot of very careful expectation management. Lets not kid ourselves. Anything like an RPG requires a fairly strong theme and tone, those have to be pretty closely supported by mechanics that enhance that and support it. You simply CANNOT design an RPG by committee (well, you can, DragonQuest is the result). There is no way that fans are going to be making any decisions that impact the basic structure and goals of the game, it just isn't possible. Modulate your expectations for playtest. There are plenty of areas where outside comment and test can have an influence, but it is more at the level of fluff, presentation, and details of specific mechanics (IE it is perfectly feasible to have people playtest powers and work out the bugs in them, making the decision to HAVE powers or which classes will get them is simply not something playtest will have any influence on).
That is not dead which may eternal lie

at least everyone gets to make believe they are a game designer for a few days

With magic lanterns.
With magic lanterns.



haha yes!
Nevermind. I mistook sarcasm for opinion. Move along. Nothing to see here.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
This thread seems to serve little purpose beyond edition bashing, designer bashing, and some good old fashioned doom and gloom. I'm gonna shut it down as it's really likely to end badly. Let's try to keep our criticism constructive (yes, you can still be negative) and away from insulting ideas or groups of people.

Trevor Kidd Community Manager

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