How will 4th edition end?

Now that it is official. I would like to start a thread to deal with, NOT 5th edition, but the END of 4th and also the question of will 4th be playable after 5th comes out. In other words without all of the online tools that are currently part of DDI, will 4th be viable? I think it will be, but it will be a lot more work. Without the character builder making a character will be very hard. Without the DM tools and the compendium, it will also be hard to DM. I think this was in a sense part if the WOTC plan from the beginning. 


I also wonder what the next months will be like, with what will clearly be a weakened product line and less support for 4th. 


Also, to all o f the people who flamed me and those like me because  we kept saying that this was coming. I just want to say that I feel a bit vindicated now. I wonder how all of you feel.


I DO NOT see this as a betrayal, (and I do think that 5th is going to be very different than 4th). I will keep an open mind, but I suspect that I personally will NOT be playing 4th edition (never mind 5th). I  will probably move on to other products. That is my ending for 4th edition -- of course my kids might force me to keep running it for them. They love it. That's going to be a lot of work once DDI is gone...


So what about the rest of you, how does the announcement effect your attitude towards 4th? Do you think you will keep playing? Maybe this is the time for people to start making up their own home brew stuff, or maybe it is just time to move on. 

The same way all the other editions did.... by not ending. There are still folks that play 1e, 2e, and 3e.

There are folks that still play Alternity.

Games don't just disappear just because a company doesn't make new material for it. Indeed, the strength of role playing games is the players themselves come up with new material.

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Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinon an absurd effort at best considering the topic!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. (AD&D) is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek the use of imagination and creativity.... In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which an fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously. For fun, excitement and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed.As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe or even as a reflection of midieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the later must search elsewhere. - Gary Gygax. 1e DMG.
WotC_Trevor has confirmed that 4e Tools like the CharBuilder will remain supported (if not updated) by WotC during 5e, so they don't screw over 4e players.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

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A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

I'm still hoping for a nice DMG 3 with advice on the epic tier. And an Unearthed Arcana would also be a very "wrapping product" for 4e.

Well, this was the shortest version of D&D yet. Let's hope 5th does better. At least open playtest will be awesome - it's a sure win for the company and gives every D&D player a chance to sample and guide the new edition's progress :D.
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4th looks like it will end with some books coming out by dudes that were fired, shrinking magazines, and a lot of apologies to pathfinder players

but it wont really end, ill keep playing it bc i love it
Just like 3.5 did.

With angry players cursing wotc for leaving them behind...a living campain with unfinished ends, promises forgotten and left behind.

And yet another generation of gamers who look at anything that isn't their edition and say it sucks..without actually seeing what its like.
Prematurely.
Ahh, so THIS is where I can add a sig. Remember: Killing an ancient God inside of a pyramid IS a Special Occasion, and thus, ladies should be dipping into their Special Occasions underwear drawer.
So what about the rest of you, how does the announcement effect your attitude towards 4th? Do you think you will keep playing? Maybe this is the time for people to start making up their own home brew stuff, or maybe it is just time to move on.

It doesn't affect my attitude at all.  Fun is fun, whether it's current or not ;).  We're planning to start a Dark Sun game soon.  Kept putting if off til we wrapped up our Eberron games.  

I don't use the online tools (tried 'em, don't like 'em), preferring instead to write out and update my PC sheet as a Word document.  I've played in many sessions over the last few years and only created a handful of PCs.  Creating a PC does take time but I've had lots of practice, so it's not too bad.  The online tools are a great help no doubt but they're not essential in my XP.

Once PC creation is out of the way, game play is a blast.  Newcomers will want to learn as quicly and easily as possible.  What's most important to the continued playablity of 4e are friends I think ;).  A new edition won't change that.
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4e will end with Vecna breaking out of Ravenloft and into Sigil, at which point Her Serenity just sighs and daubus mutter something about "This again?" while adventurers try to do epic good despite the jaded response of every npc involved.  At the end, the whole mess provides a nice handwave as to why the rules of the universe suddenly changed or something.


Really though, nothing ever ends.

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"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends."

I expect that, when WotC has fully embraced 5th edition, it will be much like the way 4th edition began. There will be a few "We're still here for you!" and "We'll help you convert over!" promises that are either broken, delayed, or simply insufficient. There will be a 4th edition branch community that will follow up on 4E's potential, making their own fixes, clones, and houserules, possibly even moreso than when 4E was alive, since we'll likely eventually abandon, or be pushed out of, the content-locked automated tools that WotC provides. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there can be another Pathfinder for 4E, which will leave 4E's fans in a position more like the Original Edition folks.
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Just like 3.5 did.

With angry players cursing wotc for leaving them behind...a living campain with unfinished ends, promises forgotten and left behind.

And yet another generation of gamers who look at anything that isn't their edition and say it sucks..without actually seeing what its like.

I have played all the editions of D&D. I will give 5th a chance also.
WotC_Trevor has confirmed that 4e Tools like the CharBuilder will remain supported (if not updated) by WotC during 5e, so they don't screw over 4e players.

I have looked on the forums for the statement , and can not find it. Could you supply a link?
Unfortunately, I'm not sure there can be another Pathfinder for 4E, which will leave 4E's fans in a position more like the Original Edition folks.



Hmmm, maybe 4E support can be continued by retrocloning portions of it via OGL :]
WotC_Trevor has confirmed that 4e Tools like the CharBuilder will remain supported (if not updated) by WotC during 5e, so they don't screw over 4e players.

I have looked on the forums for the statement , and can not find it. Could you supply a link?



Page 2 of the L&L thread.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Just like 3.5 did.

With angry players cursing wotc for leaving them behind...a living campain with unfinished ends, promises forgotten and left behind.

And yet another generation of gamers who look at anything that isn't their edition and say it sucks..without actually seeing what its like.

And let me add that this is the kind of rhetoric that just causes problems. Why say something like this? What is the possible benefit?

What will the next generation of edition warriors be known as? The Furious Fivers? The Five Dollar Foot Longers? Can't wait to see.
On a serious note i am curious to see the direction the new game will take. D&D will never die.
There will be more computer involvement so the game can be less sold on pirate websites and more product based needs like minis. What ever they can do to MAKE you buy product and KEEP paying them to play is the intention of Blizzard WotC. Anyone notice the Character Generator turned into a much much more needed tool to play for this edition, and shocker, they made the tool only usable with a current paid account.

I foresee books you can rent and only readable through a paid account next.
What will the next generation of edition warriors be known as? The Furious Fivers? The Five Dollar Foot Longers? Can't wait to see.
On a serious note i am curious to see the direction the new game will take. D&D will never die.



I'm expecting "$E" to be new edition's nickname when spoken of bitterly. :P
Fire Blog Control, Change, and Chaos: The Elemental Power Source Elemental Heroes Example Classes Xaosmith Exulter Chaos Bringer Director Elemental Heroes: Looking Back - Class and Story Elemental Heroes: Complete Class Beta - The Xaosmith (January 16, 2012) Elemental Heroes: Complete Class Beta - The Harbinger (May 16, 2012) Check out my Elemental Heroes blog series and help me develop four unique elemental classes.
Also, to all o f the people who flamed me and those like me because  we kept saying that this was coming. I just want to say that I feel a bit vindicated now. I wonder how all of you feel.



If you make the same prediction for 3 years by constantly saying "Ohhhh just you wait, it will be here any day now!", it finally coming to pass does not make you a seem like a very reliable seer.
EVERY DAY IS HORRIBLE POST DAY ON THE D&D FORUMS. Everything makes me ANGRY (ESPECIALLY you, reader)
Also, to all o f the people who flamed me and those like me because  we kept saying that this was coming. I just want to say that I feel a bit vindicated now. I wonder how all of you feel.



If you make the same prediction for 3 years by constantly saying "Ohhhh just you wait, it will be here any day now!", it finally coming to pass does not make you a seem like a very reliable seer.



Yeah, it's like that guy who predicted the Rapture three or four times.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.

Yeah, it's like that guy who predicted the Rapture three or four times.



It's also something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. 4E likely suffered quite a bit at the hands of the ever-present smear campaigns.
Fire Blog Control, Change, and Chaos: The Elemental Power Source Elemental Heroes Example Classes Xaosmith Exulter Chaos Bringer Director Elemental Heroes: Looking Back - Class and Story Elemental Heroes: Complete Class Beta - The Xaosmith (January 16, 2012) Elemental Heroes: Complete Class Beta - The Harbinger (May 16, 2012) Check out my Elemental Heroes blog series and help me develop four unique elemental classes.

Yeah, it's like that guy who predicted the Rapture three or four times.



It's also something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. 4E likely suffered quite a bit at the hands of the ever-present smear campaigns.

It was hard to be a 4th ed. fan at times, you were snobbed at and looked down as some 'corporate brainwashed moron' - an act of faith, nearly.
It'll end when I say it ends.


It's also something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. 4E likely suffered quite a bit at the hands of the ever-present smear campaigns.

It was hard to be a 4th ed. fan at times, you were snobbed at and looked down as some 'corporate brainwashed moron' - an act of faith, nearly.


So true. That especially hurt coming from people who payed money for a system that was free (and that they already bought once before).  

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

This is the way 4e ends.
This is the way 4e ends.
This is the way 4e ends.
Not with new books, but new campaigns! Wink

Hey, we've probably got about two years before 5e drops, that's plenty of time for a few good adventures (perhaps the updated Against the Giants series).
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
I play 4E every week (through LFR), and I have to admit: I will not miss 4E much.  It was the most balanced edition yet, don't get me wrong, but it did lose a lot of what made the game fun.

To this day I still can't really let my suspension of disbelief handle non-magic instant healing (in other words stuff like Inspiring Word from Warlords).  The abstract nature of skill challenges also distanced cause-from-effect, and made it harder for me to really get into the game and seem like my individual actions had a discernable and noticeable effect.  The plethora of boring magic items and boring spells, which for the most part did not add new game mechanics but just tweaked existing ones (extra damage, bonus to-hit, daze, slow, etc...), didn't help.  I remember in the past avidely reading through the list of new magic items and spells.

Finally, the shake-up of established lore was really brutal for me.  We now regularly joke at some of the biggest (or most ridiculous) inconsistencies in the lore by just saying "Spellplague did it!" even though it might be unrelated to that.  I understand that book authors are really frustrated by this as well.

For a really good overview by a third-party of the past, present, and future of D&D:
www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9294-The-State-of-Dungeons-Dragons-Future
www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9293-The-State-of-D-D-Present
www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9292-The-Ghosts-of-D-D-Past

All said though, I hate to see yet another edition so soon.
Also, to all o f the people who flamed me and those like me because  we kept saying that this was coming. I just want to say that I feel a bit vindicated now. I wonder how all of you feel.



If you make the same prediction for 3 years by constantly saying "Ohhhh just you wait, it will be here any day now!", it finally coming to pass does not make you a seem like a very reliable seer.

No. I said this was happening when Monte Cook got hired. That coincided with a definite change in their publishing schedule. That to me indicated something was going on. You do not bring Monte Cook back on board unless you are planning something. It seemed obvious. 


And I got slammed for even proposing the idea. The hostility was acute and here again it rears its head. 


 

It'll end when I say it ends.


It's also something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. 4E likely suffered quite a bit at the hands of the ever-present smear campaigns.

It was hard to be a 4th ed. fan at times, you were snobbed at and looked down as some 'corporate brainwashed moron' - an act of faith, nearly.



So true. That especially hurt coming from people who payed money for a system that was free (and that they already bought once before).  

What smear campaign? What are you talking about? 4E has a ton of fans. I've never encountered anything close to a smear campaign. Who would do that? 



If some players were disgruntled it was based on the fact that they spent a lot of money on 3rd edition and a lot of time and they felt abandoned. 



Individuals can be angry at WOTC and not a like a game system without it being a smear campaign. It is this kind of polarizing rhetoric that has caused so many problems and probably partly doomed 4th to being so short-lived. 



I played 3rd, but was happy to see 4th come along. As to 5th, I will give it a chance, but I am leery. Maybe I will stick to baord games and home brew systems in the future....



I am going to try a table top game called Infinity tomorrow. This was decided before I heard the news on 5th BTW. It's a skirmish game based on a d20 dice rolls. LOL! Everybody at my local hobby store is going nuts for it. 



With a whimper?

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What smear campaign? What are you talking about? 4E has a ton of fans. I've never encountered anything close to a smear campaign. Who would do that? 





Denial of smear campaign.  


If some players were disgruntled it was based on the fact that they spent a lot of money on 3rd edition and a lot of time and they felt abandoned. 



followed by justification for non-existentent smear campaign.


Individuals can be angry at WOTC and not a like a game system without it being a smear campaign.



followed by acknowlegement of individuals smearing-but-not-in-a-campaign
 
  It is this kind of polarizing rhetoric that has caused so many problems and probably partly doomed 4th to being so short-lived. 



And the smear itself. 

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

with a big explosion...
Now that it is official. I would like to start a thread to deal with, NOT 5th edition, but the END of 4th and also the question of will 4th be playable after 5th comes out. In other words without all of the online tools that are currently part of DDI, will 4th be viable?

4e is perfectly viable without the online tools. 

But, yeah, I'm sure those tools will be gone not long after 5e hits.   WotC isn't going to make the same 'mistake' they did with the 3.5->4e transition, it's going to be scorched earth: no tools, no compendium, no organized play, no 4e products offered for sale in print or PDF, no liscensing - I wouldn't be surprised if they sent cheap lawyers after anyone putting up any sort of support for 4e on-line - heck, no acknowledgement that 4e ever existed (Monty Cook has already started on that bit).


I also wonder what the next months will be like, with what will clearly be a weakened product line and less support for 4th. 

So, much like the preceding year, then.

Also, to all o f the people who flamed me and those like me because  we kept saying that this was coming. I just want to say that I feel a bit vindicated now. I wonder how all of you feel.

Yeah, well, I hope you enjoy that feeling.

So what about the rest of you, how does the announcement effect your attitude towards 4th? Do you think you will keep playing? Maybe this is the time for people to start making up their own home brew stuff, or maybe it is just time to move on.

My attitude is what it's always been.  D&D has been a laggard in the industry through most of it's history.  Sure, it was the first out the gate, but after a couple of years, other games where the ones innovating.  D&D is nice because it's name recognition and history make it easy to find gamers to play it with.   That's all it has going for it, it's rarely been a good system, and it's occassionally been too bad to put up with.  I've played every edition of D&D, and I've adopted each new ed, so far, as they proved to be better than what came before.  I also gave up on D&D entirely in the 90s, when 2e just went to heck, collapsing under the weight of it's own suplements.  

I'll take up 5e if it proves better than 4e, otherwise I'll keep playing 4e and 3.5 while there are folks available to play them with, and move on to other systems if 5e is so bad it becomes worth the effort of seeking out more discerning gamers.


 

 

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This is the way 4e ends.
This is the way 4e ends.
This is the way 4e ends.

Not with a bang, but with a whimper.


[Edit: Dang it, already got ninja'd on the TS Eliot reference...]

Of course I say this while working on something for 4e (and another project for PF), so there's some irony there I suppose.
Shemeska the Marauder, Freelancer 5 / Yugoloth 10
Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
Bring on the PF 4e with just enough difference to get past the GSL! Powers are skills, and vice versa. Ability scores are now ability counts or points.
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You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
Tony_Vargas, WotC_Trevor has already said that the 4e Tools will be supported even after the start of D&D:Next.  They don't plan on alienating the 4e players.  If anything, they're going to make a game that will make us want to play both 4e and D&D:Next.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

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A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

I'll believe it 4 years after I see it.


Really, the very idea is absurd.  WotC has seen what happens when nerdraging gamers get a continuation of an older ed to cling too - their base splits.  But, it would be equally absurd to admit an intention to bury 4e in a couple of years - it's their current product, they need to minimize the damage to its income stream.

Besides, truncating 4e to a 4-6 year run, when other eds have gone 10+ (3.5, including Pathfinder, is 12 and going strong), is plenty alienating, already.

 

 

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How will it end?

In a tsunami of nerdrage.
 
How will it end?

In a tsunami of nerdrage.
 

Already started - the haters dance on the ground, as you can see around.

Tsk, Shemeska... 
I'll believe it 4 years after I see it.


Really, the very idea is absurd.  WotC has seen what happens when nerdraging gamers get a continuation of an older ed to cling too - their base splits.  But, it would be equally absurd to admit an intention to bury 4e in a couple of years - it's their current product, they need to minimize the damage to its income stream.

Besides, truncating 4e to a 4-6 year run, when other eds have gone 10+ (3.5, including Pathfinder, is 12 and going strong), is plenty alienating, already.



The difference this time is we will be a paying a monthly fee to play the old edition, as opposed to denying them their revenue stream by playing an old edition.
I'll believe it 4 years after I see it.


Really, the very idea is absurd.  WotC has seen what happens when nerdraging gamers get a continuation of an older ed to cling too - their base splits.  But, it would be equally absurd to admit an intention to bury 4e in a couple of years - it's their current product, they need to minimize the damage to its income stream.

Besides, truncating 4e to a 4-6 year run, when other eds have gone 10+ (3.5, including Pathfinder, is 12 and going strong), is plenty alienating, already.



The difference this time is we will be a paying a monthly fee to play the old edition, as opposed to denying them their revenue stream by playing an old edition.



im counting on this
which will leave 4E's fans in a position more like the Original Edition folks.



IE: they disregard news about the newer editions while they keep playing the edition they like, chatting far more productively on 3rd party forums where they have far less flame wars since they're no longer the "new kid on the block" to have hate and bile directed towards and where the mods kill trolls on sight.

in short: life, like my campaign, goes on. 
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