Confounding Arrows question

21 posts / 0 new
Last post
This power allows you to make three attacks against one, two, or three creatures.  Let's say I'm attacking the same target three times.

One hit causes a target to become dazed (save ends).  Two hits cause the target to become stunned (save ends), and three hits cause the target to be stunned (save ends) and the third hit inflicts an additional 2 [W] damage.

My DM feels this is a replacement effect, ie, if you are stunned by the attack, you are not dazed.  I felt that each attack carried it's own effect, so if you hit twice, the enemy is both dazed (save ends) and stunned (save ends).

While I accepted the DM's ruling, I'm curious about the actual RAW.

Also, the power has a miss effect of dazed (save ends)- does that occur if I miss with one attack, or do I need to miss with all three?

I'm just wondering if enemies hit with this power can end up with both a dazed (save ends) and a stunned (save ends) condition.   
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
I'd agree with your DM.  And the miss effect only applies if you miss with all three.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
That wouldn't make sense with the order you make attacks in.

Step 1: Pick power.
Step 2: Pick targets.
Step 3: roll the first attack roll.
Step 4: Hit.
Step 5: Resolve damage and effects. On the first hit, it has been hit once and is dazed (save ends).
Step 6: If a power has more then one target/attack roll, repeat steps 3-5.
Step 3 redux: Roll second attack roll.
Step 4: Hit.
Step 5: Resolve damage and effects. Target is now also Stunned (Save Ends).
Step 6: If a power has more then one target/attack roll, repeat steps 3-5.
Step 3 redux: Roll third attack roll.
Step 4: Hit.
Step 5: Resolve damage and effects. Target is now Stunned (Save Ends) and takes +2[W].

Misses would work the same way. You can miss on any given step 4, then you'd resolve damage and effects (which in this case is the Miss: Line).
I would agree with your DM as well, because
Two Hits: Stunned (SE)
Three Hits: Stunned (SE) and extra damage

Seems rather redundant, since you can't be stunned (SE) twice, as it's an identical condition with an identical duration.

The Miss effect would apply to each individual target, however.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
"also" stunned is an insertion, Alcestis.  The language in the Hit line indicates substitution, not addition.  Substitution would cause Making Attacks to not adequately cover the results of using the power, which wouldn't be the first power it fails for.

So this is an odd power.  At first glance, I thought it'd be three distinct 1[W]+Dex damage rolls, one per hit.  But that's not what the Hit line says.  Possible results:

One hit on one target:  1[W]+Dex, dazed (save ends).
Two hits on one target:  1[W]+Dex, stunned (save ends).
Three hits on one target:  3[W]+Dex, stunned (save ends).
Miss on one target:  Dazed (save ends).

If you shot two arrows at one target and hit with both, and missed a second target with the third, the first target takes 1[W]+Dex and stunned (save ends), and the second target is Dazed (save ends).

Given the automatic daze and the relatively easy stun, the potential damage of three distinct damage rolls for a total of 5[W]+3*mods is well above the power budget for this level.  Even compared to Blade Cascade.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It doesn't say it is breaking the rules, though. The results are covered just fine with the sequence I outlined. Obviously many powers from the PHB were poorly formated and the attack sequence that currently stands is different from then, but that is a RAI argument. RAW you follow the attack sequence and evaluate the hit line each time you hit, in order, because that is what the power format and how to make an attack rules say to do in the RC.
Except that the Making Attacks sequence isn't what the power tells you to do.  I'm not sure how you can dismiss the power and instead say that the general rule has priority.

What does a power have to do other than say "Do this" in order to override a rule?  I mean, a power says "Move Action:  You shift your speed" not "Move Action:  You shift your speed, even if your speed is greater than 1."
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Except that the Making Attacks sequence isn't what the power tells you to do.  I'm not sure how you can dismiss the power and instead say that the general rule has priority.

What does a power have to do other than say "Do this" in order to override a rule?  I mean, a power says "Move Action:  You shift your speed" not "Move Action:  You shift your speed, even if your speed is greater than 1."

Because you you do not have to ignore the general rule to make the power work and there is nothing specifically overriding in the power itself. Which is the gist of SvG in the first place. The power works fine with the attack sequence (I mean, I outlined precisely how it'd work), so you use the attack sequence. That is the RAW answer. Also the Shift action is restricted to one square, not shifting. So your example is flawed, no general rule is even being overridden. The fact that for the third attack you're choosing between auto-daze on another targer or a chance at an additional 3[W] on the primary target is a non-choice: a Ranger is always going to try to put the primary target down, they'll only go for the daze if the primary target has died.

As a Striker power it is much less powerful then Blade Cascade, where in real play you're going to get 10[W]+modsx5 because of rerolls and the leader giving you an attack bonusd before you use it. Blade Cascade is in fact basically twice as good for strikers, it can outright inflict the "Dead" condition, which is more powerful then Stun. Confounding under identical circumstances can't, barring crits.
Looking at this I actually went back and forth on it a few times myself, but ultimately I think I side with the DM and Mand's interpretation

Here's the text in question

 "Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage per attack.  A target hit once is dazed (save ends). A target hit twice is stunned (save ends). A target hit three times is stunned (save ends) and takes +2[W] damage.
Miss: The target is dazed (save ends)."
 
Clearly by RAW, if you attack a single target with all three attacks, hit with two and miss with the third, the target would be both Stunned (Save ends) because it was hit twice and Dazed (save ends) because it was missed once.
  However, if you simply hit that target twice (and use the third attack on a 2nd target), or hit it three times, it would not be stunned and dazed.  This is because the text determining the effects specifically lists the number of times the target was hit, and not "the first time it is hit", "the second time it is hit", etc.

 I would agree with Alcestis's point if the text instead read:
"Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage per attack.  A target  is dazed (save ends) the first time it is hit by this use of this power. A target is stunned (save ends) the second time it is hit by this use of this power. A target is stunned (save ends) and takes +2[W] damage the third time it is hit by this use of this power."

   I specifically wrote it as "by this use of this power" in case the PC has a way of retaining/regaining the power this encounter, or there is another member of the party with the same power.

One thing that isn't clear to me from the text is whether or not that +2[W] would be maximized if the third hit is a critical hit. Its not written as "extra damage", but it is included in the hit line (not an effect line) and is written as it is mostly to keep the text from getting too complicated.  As a DM I would likely rule the +2[W] is maximized because that certainly seems to be RAI.




Under that reading it fails to function at all, because you're not following the attack sequence, which you are required to do.
you're not following the attack sequence, which you are required to do.


Why are you required to do this in all circumstances?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Under that reading it fails to function at all, because you're not following the attack sequence, which you are required to do.

Not if the specific text of the power requires you to apply it differently, because specific always trumps general rules.

  Really, the Dazed and Stunned and +2[W] should be in a separate effect line, but they probably kept it in the hit line to indicate the +2[W] should be included in critical calculations as upgraded damage on a hit in a certain condition.
you're not following the attack sequence, which you are required to do.


Why are you required to do this in all circumstances?

Because the rules say all powers follow that sequence and nothing in the power specifically says not to. SvG requires either explication (i.e., "Specifically ignore this rule!") or something simply doesn't function at all (and really the latter isn't quite explicitly stated ever). Since it does function using the attack sequence and there is no specific text, you follow the attack sequence. Because that is the general rule and you have no SvG. Anything else is a RAI argument (at best).
This ability would be better constructed with the Hit line simply as 1[W], and the rest in an Effect line after the attacks.

That said, I'm with Alcestis on this one. You hit once, so you evaluate the hit line. Has the target been hit with this power once? Yes, therefore dazed SE. Then you make the second attack and evaluate the hit line. Has the target been hit twice with this power? Yes, therefore you apply stunned SE to the target. Then you make the third attack. Hit? Evaluate the line. Stunned SE (ignored because identical), and extra damage.

It seems pretty silly, but because it is the same attack every time, the miss line can apply at any time (redundant unless you miss on every attack, though). 

If the conditions were in an effect line after all the attacks, only the applicable effect would apply.
This attack's effect apply in retrospect with how many time it was hit IMO

A target hit once is dazed (save ends).
A target hit twice is stunned (save ends).
A target hit three times is stunned (save ends) and takes +2[W] damage.

A target hit three times was not hit twice or once and A target hit twice was not it once. 

So each target hit must then be inquired, was it hit three times, twice or once ? The answer will dictate the rest of the effect.
So wait, do you resolve each attack as it occurs, or not?  Does hitting or missing with the first attack inflict the daze then and there, or does the power neither daze nor stun until all three attacks are made?
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
This attack's effect apply in retrospect with how many time it was hit IMO

A target hit once is dazed (save ends).
A target hit twice is stunned (save ends).
A target hit three times is stunned (save ends) and takes +2[W] damage.

A target hit three times was not hit twice or once and A target hit twice was not it once. 

So each target hit must then be inquired, was it hit three times, twice or once ? The answer will dictate the rest of the effect.

The problem is that all that information is on the same hit line. So you evaluate the whole thing three times, each time with a different answer and a different result. You have to fully resolve the hit line every time you hit, as you hit.

The first time you evaluate the hit line, you ask, have they been hit once? Yeah, so daze em. Second time, you ask the same question, the answer is 2 times, and the result is stun. Third time, etc...

Like I said, it would be better if the effects were on a separate Effect line after the attack line (which would ideally simply be 1[W]). 
If it was an effect valid for each single attack, why would it give effect if a target is hit twice ?

Each attack is:

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage per attack.

Then there is a period .

Then there is a status depending how many times a target is hit. 

A target hit once is dazed (save ends).
A target hit twice is stunned (save ends).
A target hit three times is stunned (save ends) and takes +2[W] damage. 


EDIT

Bleeding Wounds and Cruel Cage of Steel are similarly worded.  A target hit twice is etc...

  
     
If it was an effect valid for each single attack, why would it give effect if a target is hit twice ?

Each attack is:

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage per attack.

Then there is a period .

Then there is a status depending how many times a target is hit. 

A target hit once is dazed (save ends).
A target hit twice is stunned (save ends).
A target hit three times is stunned (save ends) and takes +2[W] damage. 


EDIT

Bleeding Wounds and Cruel Cage of Steel are similarly worded.  A target hit twice is etc...

  
     

Equally broken, IMHO. Did you hit? Yes, evaluate the hit line. (all of it). Then you move on to the next attack, as per the attack sequence.

Each time you evaluate the hit line, you get a different answer and therefore a different result (as I said earlier). You can't pick half of the hit line to apply, and only apply the other half as you feel like arbitrarily. The presence of a period between the damage and the rest of the hit line makes no difference except for the order in which events take place during the hit, it all still has to happen.

Like I said, the power would work as you describe, RAW, if the second part of the hit line was in an effect line placed at the bottom of the power. I treat it ingame as if it were worded as such.
Can I ask two clarifying questions:

1)  Suppose that I deal an extra +5 damage due to merciless killer, and an extra +3 cold damage due to kyber shards.  If I hit with all three attacks and the creature has vulnerable 5 cold, am I correct in reading the damage as follows:
    Attack one:  [W]+ dex+ 5 (killer)+ 3 (cold) + 5 (vulerability)
    Attack two:  [W]+ dex+ 5 (killer)+ 3 (cold) + 5 (vulerability)
    Attack three: 3[W] + dex + 5 (killer) +3 (cold) + 5 (vulnerability)

Or, would the attack be 5 [w] +dex + 5 (killer) + 3 (cold) + 5 (vulnerability)?


2)  If I score a critical, that would maximize only the damage from that attack line, correct? 


Thanks!!
Can I ask two clarifying questions:

1)  Suppose that I deal an extra +5 damage due to merciless killer, and an extra +3 cold damage due to kyber shards.  If I hit with all three attacks and the creature has vulnerable 5 cold, am I correct in reading the damage as follows:
    Attack one:  [W]+ dex+ 5 (killer)+ 3 (cold) + 5 (vulerability)
    Attack two:  [W]+ dex+ 5 (killer)+ 3 (cold) + 5 (vulerability)
    Attack three: 3[W] + dex + 5 (killer) +3 (cold) + 5 (vulnerability)

Or, would the attack be 5 [w] +dex + 5 (killer) + 3 (cold) + 5 (vulnerability)?


2)  If I score a critical, that would maximize only the damage from that attack line, correct? 


Thanks!!

1) It would be the first.  Each separate attack roll + damage roll gets the bonus damage and vulnerability applied as each is a separate instance of damage.

2) Yes.  Any single attack roll in this power that is a critical hit will be a maximized 1[W] + maximize your usual extra damage (aka Hunter's Quarry)  + crit bonus.  If you happen to crit on the 3rd attack, and all three attacks hit the same target, then that one is 3[W] maximized instead of 1[W] maximized.
  If you manage to crit on each attack, each one gets the bonus crit damage from your weapon separately.
Sign In to post comments