so in a new edition what books should you need to play a game.

instead of the book setup as it is now i was thinking of the folowing.

rules compendium ( or somthing simular,would also give info on how to set up and run encounters0
player book  ( like the heroes of the fallen lands with the basic classes)
Campain setting OR Dungeon master guide.

Dungeon master guide would be a book where you pick and chose options guiding you trough the progress of creating your own campaign.

so there would be no basic campain setting in the player book.

and there would be more difrence between campain setting.
one could have a totaly difrent cosmolegy, tech level specific campaign rules from the other.

 
I actually like the 4E basic setup (PHB - DMG - MM - campaign setting), but I suppose mimicing the Essentials setup can work (Heroes of X, Rules Compendium, DMG, MV). Not so sure about making DMG a campaign creation handbook. I like DMG as it is now, even if buying one for every edition seems a bit redundant (as it's mostly the same basic hints and guidelines).
Check out my D&D-based play-by-post game, based on exploration and roleplaying. Agora
basically rebuying everything you bought a couple of years ago
I'd go with the above:  an essentials-style structure. 

- A big rules book (Probably called the PHB), with a compilation of all the rules, and probably annual or biennial updates/reprints (or preferably, digital releases) as new material is released.
- A DM's book, explaining the mechanics of running that side of the table, right from designing individual monsters to running campaigns right from the first to the last level.
- Thereafter, options books
-- Players' books, with short player rules summaries, and classes, races, themes etc etc
-- Monster books, with short DM rules summaries, and monsters, monster themes, suggested encounters etc etc
-- Setting books, with short campaign running guides, and setting-specific options.

Seems like a solid structure TBH.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Hey guys, look at this:

www.gamegrene.com/node/971

I'M SHOCKED!!!!!! 
I think they should evaluate alternative content delivery options first, possibly an all digital system, or a digital primary with book secondary model. I know this will ruffle feathers but a subscription model with updated digital content may be a good choise fior them. We all know how hard it is to keep up with errata and eventually toss our books when the errata makes the book almost unuseable.

I'm sure they are considering options such as this.
How about none?  I think there will be a new OGL and SRD.  I also suspect that PDFs will make a return with 5e.  The place WotC needs to focus on making money is a robust digital offering that enhances the game to the point that everyone wants a subscription.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

How about none?  I think there will be a new OGL and SRD.  I also suspect that PDFs will make a return with 5e.  The place WotC needs to focus on making money is a robust digital offering that enhances the game to the point that everyone wants a subscription.

That's bad for people outside the US.
It's hard to get subscriptions  from Venezuela, for example because we have to pay in USD that we don't have.
How about none?  I think there will be a new OGL and SRD.  I also suspect that PDFs will make a return with 5e.  The place WotC needs to focus on making money is a robust digital offering that enhances the game to the point that everyone wants a subscription.

That's bad for people outside the US.
It's hard to get subscriptions  from Venezuela, for example because we have to pay in USD that we don't have.



I buys stuff from Profantasy in the UK all the time (I'm in the States).  My bank does currency exchange for me automatically.  I don't think this will be much of an issue.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

How about none?  I think there will be a new OGL and SRD.  I also suspect that PDFs will make a return with 5e.  The place WotC needs to focus on making money is a robust digital offering that enhances the game to the point that everyone wants a subscription.

That's bad for people outside the US.
It's hard to get subscriptions  from Venezuela, for example because we have to pay in USD that we don't have.



I buys stuff from Profantasy in the UK all the time (I'm in the States).  My bank does currency exchange for me automatically.  I don't think this will be much of an issue.

When you live in VENEZUELA, it is a problem.

We only have 400 USD in our credit cards and NOT everyone have one. 
How about none?  I think there will be a new OGL and SRD.  I also suspect that PDFs will make a return with 5e.  The place WotC needs to focus on making money is a robust digital offering that enhances the game to the point that everyone wants a subscription.

That's bad for people outside the US.
It's hard to get subscriptions  from Venezuela, for example because we have to pay in USD that we don't have.



I buys stuff from Profantasy in the UK all the time (I'm in the States).  My bank does currency exchange for me automatically.  I don't think this will be much of an issue.

When you live in VENEZUELA, it is a problem.

We only have 400 USD in our credit cards and NOT everyone have one. 
How about none?  I think there will be a new OGL and SRD.  I also suspect that PDFs will make a return with 5e.  The place WotC needs to focus on making money is a robust digital offering that enhances the game to the point that everyone wants a subscription.

That's bad for people outside the US.
It's hard to get subscriptions  from Venezuela, for example because we have to pay in USD that we don't have.



I buys stuff from Profantasy in the UK all the time (I'm in the States).  My bank does currency exchange for me automatically.  I don't think this will be much of an issue.

When you live in VENEZUELA, it is a problem.

We only have 400 USD in our credit cards and NOT everyone have one. 



I don't have a credit card either.  I have a debit card that draws from my bank account.  The only limit I have is what is in my checking account.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

How about none?  I think there will be a new OGL and SRD.  I also suspect that PDFs will make a return with 5e.  The place WotC needs to focus on making money is a robust digital offering that enhances the game to the point that everyone wants a subscription.

That's bad for people outside the US.
It's hard to get subscriptions  from Venezuela, for example because we have to pay in USD that we don't have.



I buys stuff from Profantasy in the UK all the time (I'm in the States).  My bank does currency exchange for me automatically.  I don't think this will be much of an issue.

When you live in VENEZUELA, it is a problem.

We only have 400 USD in our credit cards and NOT everyone have one. 



It's not much of an issue for me either (I'm from Brazil), I didn't know there was such a thing as a USD limit on a card, isn't the limit different to each person (I chose the limit of my credit card). But well, I'm not form Venezuela, so I can only ask.

How about none?  I think there will be a new OGL and SRD.  I also suspect that PDFs will make a return with 5e.  The place WotC needs to focus on making money is a robust digital offering that enhances the game to the point that everyone wants a subscription.

That's bad for people outside the US.
It's hard to get subscriptions  from Venezuela, for example because we have to pay in USD that we don't have.



I buys stuff from Profantasy in the UK all the time (I'm in the States).  My bank does currency exchange for me automatically.  I don't think this will be much of an issue.

When you live in VENEZUELA, it is a problem.

We only have 400 USD in our credit cards and NOT everyone have one. 



I don't have a credit card either.  I have a debit card that draws from my bank account.  The only limit I have is what is in my checking account.

I repeat, it's Venezuela, and the USD system is carp.

In the "States" all work properly and better than here, believe me.

 
only need the phb abd mm.


   


             
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
I guess the real question is do they need BOOKS vs some form of online subscription system?

I guess they have that in DDI, but then I wonder if there's an online system, do we need to pay for it, or can it be run like LOTRO (free to play, but some premium items are extra).

Whether or not we get a say in these business issues has nothing to do with the offer to get us to playtest, which probably amounts to pro bono contract work, the output of which we'll have to pay for in the end.


 
I want paper editions of the books, I just find them a lot easier to search through looking for things so long as they are well laid out, with a good index, especially at the game table (not everyone has a tablet, smartphone, or laptop, or wants to wait for it to load before they can check something, ot the distraction that they can cause at the table, "I'll just look this rule up, oh, hey, an email, won't be a second guys..."). However, for character generation, computer based tools are a must (please not online exclusive though! I want to be able to poke about with characters on the train, or bring them up at the gaming table without having to set up the wifi), and I can definitely see the advantages of PDF formats.

So I'd propose the following, PDFs available for a price, print books for a little extra, each coming with a (code to redeem, whatever) PDF copy of the book. Errata published as updates to the PDFs, but with a list and replacement blocks for those that like to add it to the books.

Essential starter products:

Rules Compendium, it was a good idea, it should stay, but it should not be Immune: Errata like the current one is. Possibly set up to make the rules system more modular, and provide alternatives (don't like magic items? don't use them, heres how to keep the game balanced.)
A players book: One of multiple (eventually, presumably one to start with), each containing details for a few (6-10, biased towards higher numbers for earlier books to get all the favorites out there) classes, and races, enough to make a character.

for the DM only:
DMG: advice on DMing, not much different from the old ones, a few example terrains, out of combat encounters, and suchlike, all campaign independent. Very light on rules, since most should be visible both sides of the screen.
A monster manual
A campaign setting: either homebrew or bought, mostly fluff, but will inlcude some monsters unique to the setting (e.g. spellplagued stuff from 4e FR) in a separate section for easy reference

Character builder: Kept up to date (or permission given for others to make one through OGL or similar), since it's a lot easier than just using the books. Preferably updated on release day for the book, or at least within a couple of weeks for subscribers. Houserule support. Possibly modular, so you can use your copy of the PDF to unlock content rather than having subscriptions.

 Additional books:
Class materials: expansions for current classes, new builds, new powers, whatever. More X Power than Heroes of X, this is for more options for a class, not another subclass
More monster manuals, both themed, and general.
More campaign settings

"I am the seeker, I am the stalker, I am the walrus"
If Fifth Edition is to be something that I can swing into my FLGS and buy - which I hope that it will be - then I want for there to be a single product needed for entry that is not made redundant by future purchases

I want the introductory box set of the game to be out before (or at least at the exact same time) as the 3 volume set.

I would also settle for a huge box filled with all 3 (or the equivalent of the 3) core books and other little helpers (like dice and an adventure) priced at ~ $100

Whatever it takes so that people wanting to try out the new edition need to only pick up one physical object in the store with one price tag in order to get started, and they don't have to wait 6 months to a few years for that product to exist.

Another thing I would be down with: Make it all digital and offer the books as print-on-demand only.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

One.

The core book should have all of the races and classes, and plenty of them, spells, items, and monsters.

Any additional books should be extra spells for the classes in the core book, more items, and more monsters.

No new races and classes in books you have to buy.

I am not totally opposed to buying more than one book, I just think all you need should be in the core book, and races and classes fall under 'all you need.'
one thing, should a campain setting be written to fit the rules in the basic books (phb/dmg or 5th equivilent.
meaning al campain setting use the cosmolegy and rules as presented in the main books  

or should campain setting divert from these basic rules if it is better for the flavor and game experiance of the campaign setting, so a campain could have a difrent cosmolegy if it is needed for the story of the campain. 


in my opinion making the campain setting leading could result in wider difrences between campain settings.
so players kan find the kind of setting they enjoy.

( also there should be a world builder handbook, detaling a lot of difrent game options you could pick and chose from when creating your own homebrew campain. 
I don't think one book would work since players and DMs need almost completely different material.

I agree that with 1 player's book, a player should be able to enjoy the whole of the game, but I think it's better to have less classes and races with more detail in one book, than to squash them all in one product and then have additional material trickled out for existing classes in furture products.
There should just be one core rule book.  Many other RPGs did that just fine, and one of the best D&D rulebooks - The Basic Rules Cyclopedia - was everything you needed in one book.
At least I have my proper avatar now, I guess. But man is this cloud dark.
well at this point it is all speculation.

but wat if essentials is a prieview of what is to come.
most essensial classes have a few feats specialy for that (sub)class
and each (sub)class is mostly a self contained unit

They could go for having a lot of genral feats, and a few class feats per (sub)class

there would be no more builds of the same class instead each would be a seperate (sub)class

so when you buy a book a certain (sub)class is in it is a self contained unit.
there would be no books like martial powers that add powers and builds to a existing class
instead only books like martial heroes that would introduce new (sub)classes 

so as player find the book the kind of character is in you want to play get that book and your done as player. 
One thing I forgot to mention:

Keep the Domains system for divine feats/powers/anything with a prereq, it's a great way of making sure everything is campaign neutral. 
"I am the seeker, I am the stalker, I am the walrus"
You should be able to build characters of any level, and have all the rules to play the game in a single book, be it a Player's Handbook, or 'D&D Core Rules Compendium' or something like that.  Most iconic races, classes & items, full rules for play, including challenge design for the DM.

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

If an online subscription would be anything like the one for 4e, forget it! It catered to Windows machines... not everything was available for Mac & *nix users. PDFs and printed books are great, but having some content limited by an OS limits how much loot Wizards can make. Anything online should appeal to all users, not some. It's not that hard to do.
Please don't make me buy any physical books. I don't like them. I don't want them. I don't use them. During my 2 year stint running 4th Ed, I purchased physical copies of the books, and sat them on my bookshelf to rot. I would much rather simply buy a digital version of D&D directly from WotC, whether it's by keeping up my DDI subscription (On Saturday, I set it to not renew automatically when it runs out in February; too early to tell if the dndnext announcement is enough to get me to renew), or buying pdfs like I do with other RPG vendors, or something else. Heck, I'm carrying all the Conan stories, all the Song of Ice and Fire books, all the Dresden Files books, and nearly all of H.P. Lovecraft's fiction with me in my phone right now! It would be great if I could add my D&D books to that library.

In my opinion the best release WoC did was for Star Wars D20 1/2nd editions(especially second).  You had 100% of what you needed in one book.  That is how you get people to play.  If they have to buy 2/3/4/20 books before they even play their first game you are going to turn them away.  You then hook them with a good rules set and milk them.  You don't try to milk them from day one. :p  Then you add books like the DMG, MM, and various settings books to expand the options.


There needs to be dead-tree, pdf, and dead-tree with pdf options.  They need to maximize on the options available.  They have to understand unscrupulous people are going to steal their books no matter what they do and by avoiding pdfs they only hurt their honest customer.  There also needs to be a discount option for purchasing both at once.  Give people really a reason to bother buying both.  I'm going to want both, but if the price is too high I'll make do with just the book.  They've then lost out on the extra money they could have made off me and others like me.  While hoping those that will pay full price for both will make up the difference.


As to what I would like to see from the rules is a from the beginning system.  3.5 of course is my favorite, but the one thing it lacked from the moment it started was the ability to play anything and everything with the same set of rules.  You then end up with Fifty Thousand(yes a joke) Prestige classes to fill in the types of characters people wanted to play and all balance thrown out the window.  Every option should have a definable "weight" or "cost".  I also think they could have done more with the subtype/templates/substitution levels.  That is kind of the direction Pathfinder did.


Finally you have do all that and keep the rules open enough to imagination.  That is to me the biggest problem of 4e over 3e.  In turning it into a game that plays like an MMO it limits the possibilities, imagination, and flexibility of the fact it is a TT game.  And don't try to overly hardrule the roles!  If I play a Rogue I shouldn't hear word one about how my class is a Striker class so I'm playing it wrong.  Don't pigeon hole.  When I sit down to a TT game my first consideration shouldn't be pandering to the holy trinity of MMOs.  I shouldn't be sitting at the gaming table with a sign on my head that says "Healer looking for group". :p

Please don't make me buy any physical books. I don't like them. I don't want them. I don't use them.



And in the same vein, don't make me have to settle for a digital copy.  I don't like them.  I don't want them.  They're not useful to me in a gaming situation.
At least I have my proper avatar now, I guess. But man is this cloud dark.
I shouldn't be sitting at the gaming table with a sign on my head that says "Healer looking for group". :p



I enjoyed this thoroughly.

I also agree about the 1 book to rule them all concept.

There should be more books later on, but the first book should be so good that you only have to buy extra books if you want new options.

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Here's what we need:

Player's Handbook
Dungeon's Master Guide
Monster Manual
A complete adventure path that takes us from level 1 to whatever the maximum level for 5th edition is
Complete DDI support
The ability to purchase not only the game materials in paper format but PDF as well.  I for one would definately not have a problem with spending money on the hardbound books as well as the pdfs of the same products.  Its always nice to have a backup.  Sometimes I feel like reading the books and sometimes I like to use my notebook.

Here's what I'd love to see:
The ranger in 5th edition like it is now in 4th.  I'm not concerned with the massive amount of damage we can do in battle.  I am more concerned with them keeping my ranger the nature protecting warrior with a supernatural affinity with wildlife that he is now.  (Though if he were the damage dealer he is now in 4th edition, I would love it) 
I don't think one book would work since players and DMs need almost completely different material.

I agree that with 1 player's book, a player should be able to enjoy the whole of the game, but I think it's better to have less classes and races with more detail in one book, than to squash them all in one product and then have additional material trickled out for existing classes in furture products.



How about having all the races and classes in one book, in plenty of detail? No need to 'Squash' them at all.

As for players and dm's; the player can read the players section, and the dm can read both.

One book is fine.



We all know that having many books is more about selling them than the content. 
I prefer the core materials coming in a box myself. As long as said box is not just a "starter set".
I think we're on the wrong track here for the most part. Books??? I have shelves lined with D&D books that I have accumilated since 1979. PDFs, online support, OGL, and everything needs to be cut and pasteable so that I can put information in any order I need as a player and as a GM. It also needs to be modifiable so I can edit changes for homeplay or house ruled games.

I don't mind a subscription to be able to get this in the form I need but I also want to be able to access some info without an internet connection. Downloading PDFs that can be updated with current errata as part of the subscription would be good, especially when in non wifi areas. I hate having to look for updated information that could easily be updated digitally into the original purchase.

That's the start of my wish list.

Leonard (Lenny) Logan

I think they should start with a low cost STARTER BOX SET. Much like the first edition's reprint.

Apart fom PHB, DMG and MM what I want to have to play Next is:

 

- Forgotten Realms Player's Guide

- Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (and this time a true campaign setting like an encyclopedia with a great deal of information, not another crunch book with some lose encounters)

- Region or City Supplements (Baldur's Gate, Waterdeep, Sword Coast) with even further detail, maps and descriptions (especially of cities/settlements/dwellings and important inhabitants), adventure hooks and even complete adventures or an adventure path

- FR-based Adventure Paths of 3-5 adventures size and of different level requirement.

 Strictly speaaking the 3 cre books, every edition of D&D is usually improved by a few splat books around 10 in tota IMHO before it gets silly. My 2nd ed default books.

 

Core

Fighters Handbook

Thief Handbook

Wizard Handbook

Tome of Magic

Parts of Spells and Magic/Combat and Tactics.

 

3.5

Core books+MM2,3 FF

Complete Arcane/Warrior.Divine/Adventurer+ banned list

 

1st Ed

Core +MM2, FF

Parts of DSG,WSG, UA

 

BECMI

Rules Cyclopedia

 

ACKS

Core book

Players Companion

 

 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Zardnaar wrote:

BECMI

Rules Cyclopedia

 

Sweet book, and while that is a great way to go, I also like the traditional triumvirate, having both would be ideal.

Wizards needs to publish both paper books and online material. Some people don't want the books, and others can't or won't use digital. (One group I play with meets in a place that has no internet connection. Books are required if you need to look something up. An online subscription would be impossible there.) There should also be a subscription to content (like DDI), and a download capability for those who want to have the digital material stored locally. I'd also love to have a software package (not an online subscription service) like the 2e Core Rules and Expansion CDs. I use that every week in planning my adventure.

 

I'm pretty used to the PHB/DMG/MM setup, so that would work just fine for me. And I don't mind additional books with more races, more classes, more spells/spellcasting methods, more what-have-you.

 

Campaign settings should modify and add to the base rules. The rules don't need to allow for every possible exception that might show up in a campaign setting. Let the settings carry the load of adding races and classes, defining (or eliminating) deities, etc. For example, the PHB should define clerical abilities with domains, not deities. The campaign settings should describe which deities are associated with which domains.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

I post this everytime someone asks a similar question.

 

They need to offer hardcopy books, and PDF verions, and if you buy the books at their authorized site, you can download a watermarked PDF of said book, for free (over and over again), the moment the hardcopy book ships.  If you only want the PDF, it cost the same as the hardcopy book. It's watermarked, and again, it remains with your account on their site.  In this way, FLGS are not cheated out of sales by lower online prices.  PDFs are watermarked so they can be traced back to the account and owner.

 

As for what books, I am good with the PHB, DMG and MM as previous editions.

∴ "Virtus junxit, mors non separabit." 

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