5e wishlisting : 4e's hits and misses

With the official announcement of 5e I want to bring to the front many of the aspects of 4e that worked (for me) and didn't work (for me) and what I hope to see coming in the future.

edit note: my computer went wonky while typing this and decided to publish this thread  before I was done typing the first sentence. x.x;

So here we go!

Hits


  • Flexible races without stat penalties.

  • More than 1 type of healer.

  • Attempt to normalize power between classes across levels. Also called Attempt to Balance the Everythings.

  • Easy monster stat blocks

  • Easier to run a game than other editions for the DM

  • Character builder / fast character generation. Lets get right into playing

  • System mastery not required to make a good, effective character

  • Simple skills tree / training

  • Themes and backgrounds!!!


Misses



  • Feat tax feats due to poor math in monster design.

  • Classes that use non STR stat for all their melee attacks having to take a feat to make that stat work for MBAs (fixed with essentials classes, but should have been erratta for all previous classes using this mechanic.)

  • Lack of support for some classes compared to others, leading some classes to feel woefully incomplete compared to others (Vampires and Seekers I'm looking at you)

  • Multiple iterations of the same class using different mechanics in different books without compatability between the 2 versions. Pre-essentials / post essentials rogues, fighters, paladins I'm looking at you. Compare to the Barbarian in Fey Wild. which did this much better.

  • Feat bloat - Some feats no longer useful compared to new feats which do the same thing (weapon expertise feat set I'm looking at you) or feats that are just bad in general. (specific examples escape me at this time). Leads to too many choices to go through in order to make a character, choice paralysis.


Other ideas



  • Languages should be able to be learned without taking a feat. Perhaps a bonus based on wis or int so that characters can start with more than 1 language depending on stats / background / theme.

  • Similar idea for skills. Open up actual "you get this skill" instead of you get access to the skill or a bonus in it for your background.


Just some thoughts and some opinions. I hope 5e is better than and more fun than 4e.


I hope.

I_Roll_20s @twitter. Not always SFW. I may prefer 4e, but I will play and enjoy almost any edition, and indeed almost any table top RPG, with my friends. Down with Edition Wars. Shut up and roll your dice. :P
This is some of the hopes I got for 5e.

- Faster Combat

Nothing kills role playing more than having combat taking up all the game time.
I like the idea that was presented with weapons dealing a static damage and you deal more damage depending on how "solid" the hit is.

- More options during combat

My fighter has 3 encounter powers, each encounter he get to use those 3 powers and maybe an at will and a daily power if the battle is challenging. Thing is that I want my fighter to have an option of like 7 powers that he can use each encounter. However he just have resources to use 3 powers. This will give some fun and tactical choices during combat.

- Each battle could be the last

I don't like the idea of players saving daily powers. Each encounter can be the last and players should use every available resource to them. However using a daily power is an exciting moment for the players.  I see 2 fun options to keep this.

You can use one daily power each milestone. In a way like Action Points are used now. You have an options of different daily powers to choose from each time. Oh... And you have 1 action point each encounter Smile

Second option is to have a resource system where using a "daily" power would mean you can use less Encounter powers or just some kind of cast time. Like you cast this amazing spell, but it takes a Standard action and maybe 1 or 2 minor actions in the next rounds, where you can only use at will powers. It is ok that classes like a wizard might have more powerful dailies than a fighter. However this is balanced cause of time and resource it demand.

- I want my hero to keep going

Thou 4e removed some of the 5 min workday problem I still want more. I simply want Surges removed so that players can finish the dungeon. Some may say this is stupid from a role playing perspective. After all, the heroes gets wounded in combat. From my experience however nothing is more annoying than having a party take a "nap" after 4 encounters, in a dungeon you designed with 5 encounters. It is even more troublesome from a story perspective where I have cases where the Villain escapes, the heroes have to go back to town (can't take a nap in the evil Cardinals castle). Issues like taking a nap in strange dungeons or story has some kind of urgency is often ignored.

- Make stats mean less and more at the same time more

My fighter doesn't need to be super strong. Of course strength should give some benefits but not to the extent that it does now. Each class have to maximize their prime stat just to follow the attack table. Rarely do you see any character starting with a 16 in primary stat.
Please don't let the primary stat affect the attack roll cause that makes it too important.

Secondly make each stat mean more. I mean even for a fighter each stat could have an effect.

Example:
 Str; give better fort and probability to escape grabs
Con; give some extra hps
Dex; improves your initiative.
Cha; might give you a small benefit like higher AC and better attacks each time you use an Action Point. A "luck" stat in some way
Wis; Gives you better will defense
Int; might improve you reflex defense.

Benefit like this means that every stat would be of some use to each class.

- Some standard wishes

- Better distinction between combat and non combat benefits. They shouldn't be from the same pool.

- Don't screw the attack and defense tables. Never do I want to see an Expertise feat and to some extent Improved defenses. Iron Will, Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexes should be enough when wanting to improve your defenses. Don't let the gap between primary defense and secondary defense get as big as it get at higher lvls. I only see the problem and not the solution to this.

- More focus on roleplaying. 4e doesn't in any way hinder roleplaying. In many cases it is better then 3e. However it seemed like it was less focus on it. Maybe it's just the nostalgic part of me that is talking but make sure that you quickly put the idea that this is a ROLE playing game in the player who reads the PHB. Of course some just jumps right away to powers and such so it might just be the audience fault. Idk.

That was just some of my wishes. Some of this has been mentioned already.
As Mandarin pointed out a lot of my gripes about classes have been pointed out so far, but I'll throw in my opinion about how classes should be handled. I'll admit, a few ideas are based off of ones I've found within this very thread.
(Also pardon typos/grammar, I kinda wrote this on the fly :3)

Several people pointed out a system that worked from a list of base classes where one branched out, but no one has exactly addressed the specifics on how this system would work. Would it work like some MMO's where you have a base class and then at x level you can branch into a more specialized one? Maybe during the character's creation they have to pick fighter subtype barbarian? The first is pretty much how paragon paths worked, and the second is taking a class and making its section thicker by slapping another class into it. While both would work, neither is exactly what I would want DnD to devolve into.

My Proposal
Just ahead of time, I loved Star Wars Saga Edition and while it had its flaws I still think it had the best class system of all time. So yes you'll find me taking a lot of Saga Edition and thweaking it a bit. So we have this  idea to consolidate classes already, but how do we do it without borking their sections of the book, and not making a person take the equivalent of 3 - 500 paragon paths to make their concept? Talent points.

Where one could go down several different paths with these points to help realize their character, and multiclassing would be done by taking a level in another class and spending a talent point in one of the abilities.

Let me propose an example, lets take Cleric/Paladin/Invoker/Avenger and slap them all into being one class. We'll call it Priest for the purpose of this example. Lets say I want to warrior of the church who also has some healing? The person would dip into the Cleric set of talents for the healing power, but they would clearly focus on the paladin branch. How would these talents work per say? Well I'm afriad I haven't quite thought out specific talents yet, but I was thinking something akin to giving paladins vows. Vows would provide a static bonus like +x to AC, damage reduction, immunities to disease, along with providing abilities that focus on protecting their allies , and the Cleric branch would get prayers, abilties that let them heal / remove penalties / buff allies. As for the other two, Invoker would be about well pretty much what it does now adding penalties self sacrifice to be able to do more damage/penalties. Then Avenger would be all about smiting your target.

"What about the other classes?"

Here is how I'd consolidate them. (Please note that these are just ideas :3)

Warrior = Fighter / Monk / Ranger / Warlord 
Now some of you maybe like, "WOAH THERE VELWEIN! One of those isn't even from the same power source!" Yes but... I never quite understood how monk was a "psionic class." Before fourth edition, a monk was pretty much someone who fought with their fists. So I'm going to treat it as such :3. Now what are some examples of how the talents would work? Monk would get stances, while in different stances they maybe more prone to flurry of blows, tripping, disarming or any number of other actions. Ranger would be focused around ranged combat and traps be given something a radius based ranged attack, static bonuses with ranged attacks, and traps they can throw out. Now some of you maybe like, "BLASPHEMY VELWEIN! Ranger has always had Two-Weapon Fighting!" Yeah well times change and I'd slap it under Fighter, Fighter will get "Techniques" where they have practiced in certain melee fighting styles and have mastered them, maybe he dual wields blades and is focused on being a dervish? So his talents would give him an extra attack with his off hand and so on. What if you want to be a sword and board warrior? Then just take the sword and shield path with abilites that might help limit the enemies movement around them, hell bring back the marking from 4th edition maybe. Warlord will get tactics, where he focuses around buffing his allies, or getting them into more prime positions to abe able to attack, and so on.

 Now wait a minute, what happens to Rogue in all of this? Lets face it guys, Rogue by itself can be a multitude of mini-classes (Well before 4th edition anyway).

I'd break Rogue up like this, Thief / Outlaw / Bard / Assassin
Thief would be all about stealing, Bard would be all about the socials, manipulation, and their music would buff those around them as they did in the past, now what about outlaws and assassins? Might they step on each others shoes? Not all my good friends! Outlaw could be all about using cheap tricks, improvised weapons, and debuffing the enemy through intimidation and shock and awe tactics. While Assassin would be focused on attack from the shadows then quickly trying to find another prime location to come back and hit once more.

Spirit Caller = Barbarian / Warden / Druid / Shaman
Personally, I generally liked the 4th Edition idea behind these classes. Barbarian would be about pacts with spirits that influence him in a rage. Warden would be about shapeshifting into different forms to protect the grove. Druid would focus on spirit magic with spells like entangle and fairy fire. Shaman could be all about summoning the spirits to his aid and keep the healing powers we have in 4th edition. Who said that only priest could have a heal focused talent tree?

Arcanist = Warlock / Wizard / Sorcerer / Artificer
Now some of you maybe like, "Woah there what about  Swordmage and what not!" Well this is easy guys, multiclass into warrior and pick up fighter or something. Bam, you have a sword + magic. Moving along, Warlock would work off of hexes and pacts. Hexes would be all about debuffing your enemies, while pacts would provide the character with bonuses or maybe something like a hellfire blade. Wizard would focus on utility spells and control oriented powers. Sorcerer would be all about blasting things. Artificer would be about creating an array of creatures with different abilities to fight for you along with healing powers done through devices and potions.

Psionicist = Psion / Ardent / Battlemind / Deflier
Wait... wasn't Defiler a 2nd edition class that was arcane? Why yes, yes it was. I'm however changing it to be a psionic class due to you "defling a person's mind." Defiler would be all about reaching into your enemy's mind and dealing damage. Psion would be about creating an outside force to affect your enemies, pushing/sliding/stunning and throwing up mental barriers or walls to protect allies, ardent would be affect your own allies to drive them to be better than they are (buffing / healing etc). While Battlemind would be about affecting your enemy's perception and protecting your allies by convincing them your allies aren't there, or by forcing such a strong emotion of rage out of them they aim for you.
As Mandarin pointed out a lot of my gripes about classes have been pointed out so far, but I'll throw in my opinion about how classes should be handled. I'll admit, a few ideas are based off of ones I've found within this very thread.
(Also pardon typos/grammar, I kinda wrote this on the fly :3)

Several people pointed out a system that worked from a list of base classes where one branched out, but no one has exactly addressed the specifics on how this system would work. Would it work like some MMO's where you have a base class and then at x level you can branch into a more specialized one? Maybe during the character's creation they have to pick fighter subtype barbarian? The first is pretty much how paragon paths worked, and the second is taking a class and making its section thicker by slapping another class into it. While both would work, neither is exactly what I would want DnD to devolve into.

My Proposal
Just ahead of time, I loved Star Wars Saga Edition and while it had its flaws I still think it had the best class system of all time. So yes you'll find me taking a lot of Saga Edition and thweaking it a bit. So we have this  idea to consolidate classes already, but how do we do it without borking their sections of the book, and not making a person take the equivalent of 3 - 500 paragon paths to make their concept? Talent points.

Where one could go down several different paths with these points to help realize their character, and multiclassing would be done by taking a level in another class and spending a talent point in one of the abilities.

Let me propose an example, lets take Cleric/Paladin/Invoker/Avenger and slap them all into being one class. We'll call it Priest for the purpose of this example. Lets say I want to warrior of the church who also has some healing? The person would dip into the Cleric set of talents for the healing power, but they would clearly focus on the paladin branch. How would these talents work per say? Well I'm afriad I haven't quite thought out specific talents yet, but I was thinking something akin to giving paladins vows. Vows would provide a static bonus like +x to AC, damage reduction, immunities to disease, along with providing abilities that focus on protecting their allies , and the Cleric branch would get prayers, abilties that let them heal / remove penalties / buff allies. As for the other two, Invoker would be about well pretty much what it does now adding penalties self sacrifice to be able to do more damage/penalties. Then Avenger would be all about smiting your target.

"What about the other classes?"

Here is how I'd consolidate them. (Please note that these are just ideas :3)

Warrior = Fighter / Monk / Ranger / Warlord 
Now some of you maybe like, "WOAH THERE VELWEIN! One of those isn't even from the same power source!" Yes but... I never quite understood how monk was a "psionic class." Before fourth edition, a monk was pretty much someone who fought with their fists. So I'm going to treat it as such :3. Now what are some examples of how the talents would work? Monk would get stances, while in different stances they maybe more prone to flurry of blows, tripping, disarming or any number of other actions. Ranger would be focused around ranged combat and traps be given something a radius based ranged attack, static bonuses with ranged attacks, and traps they can throw out. Now some of you maybe like, "BLASPHEMY VELWEIN! Ranger has always had Two-Weapon Fighting!" Yeah well times change and I'd slap it under Fighter, Fighter will get "Techniques" where they have practiced in certain melee fighting styles and have mastered them, maybe he dual wields blades and is focused on being a dervish? So his talents would give him an extra attack with his off hand and so on. What if you want to be a sword and board warrior? Then just take the sword and shield path with abilites that might help limit the enemies movement around them, hell bring back the marking from 4th edition maybe. Warlord will get tactics, where he focuses around buffing his allies, or getting them into more prime positions to abe able to attack, and so on.

 Now wait a minute, what happens to Rogue in all of this? Lets face it guys, Rogue by itself can be a multitude of mini-classes (Well before 4th edition anyway).

I'd break Rogue up like this, Thief / Outlaw / Bard / Assassin
Thief would be all about stealing, Bard would be all about the socials, manipulation, and their music would buff those around them as they did in the past, now what about outlaws and assassins? Might they step on each others shoes? Not all my good friends! Outlaw could be all about using cheap tricks, improvised weapons, and debuffing the enemy through intimidation and shock and awe tactics. While Assassin would be focused on attack from the shadows then quickly trying to find another prime location to come back and hit once more.

Spirit Caller = Barbarian / Warden / Druid / Shaman
Personally, I generally liked the 4th Edition idea behind these classes. Barbarian would be about pacts with spirits that influence him in a rage. Warden would be about shapeshifting into different forms to protect the grove. Druid would focus on spirit magic with spells like entangle and fairy fire. Shaman could be all about summoning the spirits to his aid and keep the healing powers we have in 4th edition. Who said that only priest could have a heal focused talent tree?

Arcanist = Warlock / Wizard / Sorcerer / Artificer
Now some of you maybe like, "Woah there what about  Swordmage and what not!" Well this is easy guys, multiclass into warrior and pick up fighter or something. Bam, you have a sword + magic. Moving along, Warlock would work off of hexes and pacts. Hexes would be all about debuffing your enemies, while pacts would provide the character with bonuses or maybe something like a hellfire blade. Wizard would focus on utility spells and control oriented powers. Sorcerer would be all about blasting things. Artificer would be about creating an array of creatures with different abilities to fight for you along with healing powers done through devices and potions.

Psionicist = Psion / Ardent / Battlemind / Deflier
Wait... wasn't Defiler a 2nd edition class that was arcane? Why yes, yes it was. I'm however changing it to be a psionic class due to you "defling a person's mind." Defiler would be all about reaching into your enemy's mind and dealing damage. Psion would be about creating an outside force to affect your enemies, pushing/sliding/stunning and throwing up mental barriers or walls to protect allies, ardent would be affect your own allies to drive them to be better than they are (buffing / healing etc). While Battlemind would be about affecting your enemy's perception and protecting your allies by convincing them your allies aren't there, or by forcing such a strong emotion of rage out of them they aim for you.



This is the kind of game I would love to play again as DnD.

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