Hide Armor Expertise Nerfed...

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What seems to be OP, to me, is the whole soft armor thing.

I never really got why a Mage could get 19 AC (the equiviliant at level 1) by level two (or one with a human) without any improved gear...


Staff mage +1 AC, +5 INT, Hafted Defense +1, Unarmored Agility +2. ._.




sure, you can do this, but why would you? You've spent all your resources on things that don't make you a better Wizard. You're not a melee character so AC really isn't a big deal.


A rouge with a parrying dagger and two weapon defense (and a parrying dagger really seems to have no drawback as you use a small one-handed weapon for all of your primary attacks) can easily get up to 19 AC as well, and with studded leather armor or going that light chainmail thingy even higher.



But they're not going to keep up unless they ignore their rogue features.



What seems to be OP, to me, is the whole soft armor thing.

I never really got why a Mage could get 19 AC (the equiviliant at level 1) by level two (or one with a human) without any improved gear...


Staff mage +1 AC, +5 INT, Hafted Defense +1, Unarmored Agility +2. ._.




sure, you can do this, but why would you? You've spent all your resources on things that don't make you a better Wizard. You're not a melee character so AC really isn't a big deal.


A rouge with a parrying dagger and two weapon defense (and a parrying dagger really seems to have no drawback as you use a small one-handed weapon for all of your primary attacks) can easily get up to 19 AC as well, and with studded leather armor or going that light chainmail thingy even higher.



But they're not going to keep up unless they ignore their rogue features.




But it's still uber powerful. Given the raw ability you can have it forces me to question why a con barbarian would be considered OP.

If they are so concerned about it, make it so you can't get hide armor profiency and second skin at later levels; blam. Problem solved.


A whirling barbarian with two-weapon defense and a few other things sounds kind of cool though...

Also, given the Charisma modifier for oppurtunity attacks a well defended rouge has been an idea ingrained into the game sense player's Handbook 1.
Losing the bonus at later levels would be.....weird and not like anything else in the game.

And again, it's not "uber-powerful" as it doesn't make you any better at your role. A wizard who spends all his resources boosting AC is a bad wizard.
Losing the bonus at later levels would be.....weird and not like anything else in the game.

And again, it's not "uber-powerful" as it doesn't make you any better at your role. A wizard who spends all his resources boosting AC is a bad wizard.



Well what should they be doing? They get enchating for free (and a bunch of crazy awesome utility spells) and don't really do a lot of DPS, and their controllerly stuff is pretty much ingrained into them meaning that bumping up their AC and reflex just makes them less squishy and less needed to be protected by tanks.

The only other thing I can really see being that cool is a familiar and stuff; maybe some languages or jack of all trades. While you will probs boost your +hit with implement feats and whatnot, once you get those what is there really else to do, everything is pretty much utility.

Plus, you have like the lowest health in the game, and upping your survivability will make you less of a problem for other players AND potentially allow you to use a lot of close range spells without dieing.
However, if the argument is that you don't need the CON for Hide, you need it for Chain instead (IIRC, I don't know the armour prof prereqs offhand) then it's no easier to obtain when you start at leather...



EXCEPT!

That the presquities for Chain is Dex which you will most likely have a lot of and Con for Hide, which will most likely be a stat waste; if you're a rouge or a ranger.



Armor Proficiency (Chainmail) requires Str 13, Con 13, as does Armor Proficiency (Hide). If you are starting from Leather, you need one or the other to qualify for Armor Proficiency (Ringmail), meaning you need Str 13 + Con 13 if you want Ringmail proficiency, unless you came with at least Hide proficiency built into your class.

Armor Specialization (Chainmail) requires 15 Dex, but does not have any effect whatsoever if you are wearing Ringmail. Ringmail is not Chainmail. The only connection Ringmail has to Chainmail is that the choices of what enchantments can be placed on them is the same. If you choose to wear Ringmail you are giving up the option of taking Armor Specialization of any kind.  

From the New Armors excerpt (please correct me if the book contradicts the article):
Base Type: A suit of armor or a shield counts as the indicated type for the purpose of determining what magical properties it can gain.

     
 There is no other meaning assigned to Base Type, so you don't get to count as the base type for feats, class features, etc. So Banded Mail, for example, which has base armor Chainmail, would not qualify for the damage bonuses for Tempest Technique or Battlerage Vigor. Ringmail would, because the requirement is that you wear Chainmail or light armor, and Ringmail is light armor.
So I just realized that Hide Armor Expertise is Nerfed....


In other news...
However, if the argument is that you don't need the CON for Hide, you need it for Chain instead (IIRC, I don't know the armour prof prereqs offhand) then it's no easier to obtain when you start at leather...



EXCEPT!

That the presquities for Chain is Dex which you will most likely have a lot of and Con for Hide, which will most likely be a stat waste; if you're a rouge or a ranger.



Armor Proficiency (Chainmail) requires Str 13, Con 13, as does Armor Proficiency (Hide). If you are starting from Leather, you need one or the other to qualify for Armor Proficiency (Ringmail), meaning you need Str 13 + Con 13 if you want Ringmail proficiency, unless you came with at least Hide proficiency built into your class.

Armor Specialization (Chainmail) requires 15 Dex, but does not have any effect whatsoever if you are wearing Ringmail. Ringmail is not Chainmail. The only connection Ringmail has to Chainmail is that the choices of what enchantments can be placed on them is the same. If you choose to wear Ringmail you are giving up the option of taking Armor Specialization of any kind.  

From the New Armors excerpt (please correct me if the book contradicts the article):
Base Type: A suit of armor or a shield counts as the indicated type for the purpose of determining what magical properties it can gain.

     
 There is no other meaning assigned to Base Type, so you don't get to count as the base type for feats, class features, etc. So Banded Mail, for example, which has base armor Chainmail, would not qualify for the damage bonuses for Tempest Technique or Battlerage Vigor. Ringmail would, because the requirement is that you wear Chainmail or light armor, and Ringmail is light armor.



Well "Godplate" for instance counts as "plate" despite not possessing that name becuase it's base type is plate, and barbed shields and barbed armor problably count as their respective armor types as I doubt the shield is intended for you to be unable to get feats associated with it; as is studded leather armor.

Also, if you are proficient with chainmail then you are able to get the armor (with a feat), as it's base type is chainmail; so that's implied but not specifically stated, as you need profiency with it's base type in order to get the armor, as indicated by it's base type, BUT it specifically states that you need a feat to get said armor.

So it's entirely possible that it fits into that class, as it's stated elswhere what base type means.


As well, as a rouge, while you will most likely be going Dex 20 Strength 16, and then con 11, it's not too impossible to get 2 points in con, such as if you are going a halfling or even a Dex/Con half-orc, and a few other races, so it's entirely pluasible to have it at level one or 11. By level 21, even without increasing con you will get +2 so it will be viable even if you never directly increased that stat.
I have a pretty good house rule methinks to replace it.

The Hide Armor Expertise feat has been changed to operate how it would normally before the errata, except that you are unable to benefit from the extra AC granted from second skin or hide armor proficiency at later levels.
Well yes, Cha Barbarians are gimped much like Strength Rangers and Barbarian Agility really isn't that OP, but I'm looking into it and comparing feats and builds and whatnot at later levels.

Actually, I may consider removing that shirt, or perhaps making it viable for heavy armor as well...


It may be a good idea to allow enhancements on shields.

At later levels +2, and maybe plus 3 if your Dex is 15 really isn't that amazing as a static bonus, especially when you add half your level to everything.
At later levels +2, and maybe plus 3 if your Dex is 15 really isn't that amazing as a static bonus, especially when you add half your level to everything.



Uhm, no, that's completely and innequivocally wrong. Shields do not need and cannot be given a scaling bonus to AC or using a shield will make you unhittable at later levels. The +2 from a heavy shield is worth exactly the same amount at level 30 as it was at Level 1. If shields got enhancement bonuses, they would go from making you 10% harder to hit to making you 40% harder to hit, which in a system where the base chance to be hit is 50%, means having a shield in and of itself would make enemies need a 19 to hit your AC.

This is true of all modifications to d20 rolls beyond the core math elements by the way. The things you need are half-level, one stat, expertise, enhancement, and in the case of weapon attacks the base +2 prof. Everything else puts you ahead or behind the standard curve by a lossless amount.



They don't scale at later levels, I never said that they did.

Shields at later levels only provide a flat modifier, which makes using one not really that important when you can do way more damage with a two-handed weapon, in the case of a barbarian.


Becuse armor will be increasing with a flat modifier (+6 leather armor providing the same as a +6 cloth or plate) it would basically cut the effectiveness of the shield down, percantage wise, even if we ignore the level based rising.

Regardless of whether or not it got some pluses.

Uhm, no, that's completely and innequivocally wrong.


As is your choice of wording.
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
I'd strongly disagree there. Your fix does nothing for the CHA barbarians and needlessly gimps Swarm Druids while failing to solve the problem with HAE in the first place, which is that Barbarian AC gets way too high due to Barbarian Agility growing when it should be a static bonus.

It's Improved Armor of Faith all over again.



Wait, that +1 to AC and Reflex will be present regardless of having hide armor expertise, you could just go a Dex Barbarian like I'm saying and do better; it wouldn't really be in relation to this feat.

You just want to hurt barbarians arbitriarly and not actually solve the problem, don't you? -.-
Erachima's right. You need to fully understand the game math before implementing a change like that. A lot of folks mainly play in heroic and don't understand what changes as the levels go up.

+1 to damage certainly loses potency as levels increase (this is why things like weapon focus scale), but +1 to AC is going to have the same benefit at any level. Barbarian Agility only scales because it's supposed to (partially?) replace another scaling bonus (namely, DEX/INT (or in HAE's case CON) to light armor AC). Part of the problem is that it stacks with the thing it's supposed to replace.

You really can't just throw scaling bonuses into the game without first really knowing what you're doing. Even the WotC devs have screwed this up before.

I'm also not sure why you think Barbarian is some kind of gimped whipping boy without HAE. The class is just fine without it, and never really needed it in the first place. Sure, it was nice to be able to go totally STR/CON with a dwarf and have high AC, but it wasn't worth the other imbalancing effects. The resulting abysmal reflex and will also result in a STR/CON build getting chewed up in Paragon/Epic. High AC does not equal high defenses - you are better off spreading your stats around. 

As for "soft" characters having high AC, remember that AC reflects more than just attacks bouncing off your armor. A rouge's high AC reflects his ability to dodge, and wizards have magical protection and/or strategic knowledge of the attacks coming their way. Again, you seem to think those classes are "OP" compared to barbarians when they simply aren't (at least not due to AC issues).

Finally, while Barbarians have little reason to use shields, you severely overestimate the impact of a two-handed weapon. A Barbarian who opts to use the Rapier instead of the Gouge, for instance, will still be in the same damage class they were before, because weapon dice are a relatively small component of damage at higher levels, meaning the difference in [W] damage between the two will generally be made up for by the fact that the rapier wielder is significantly more accurate. People don't do this primarily because it's antithematic.


Minor nitpick, but there's also a mechanical reason for Barbarians not to use a rapier.  Many of their at-wills (including their bread-and-butter Howling Strike) requires a weapon wielded in 2 hands, and since the Rapier is a 1 handed weapon without the versatile property it cannot be used with such powers.

A Berserker, OTOH, may opt to use a Rapier and still be pretty effective (though any Berserker hoping to optimize defending would probably rather use a flail).

I'm also not sure why you think Barbarian is some kind of gimped whipping boy without HAE. The class is just fine without it, and never really needed it in the first place. Sure, it was nice to be able to go totally STR/CON with a dwarf and be proficient all around, but it wasn't worth the other imbalancing effects. I do wish that they kept some kind of fix for the shamans and swarm druids, however.


Yeah, this seems curious to me as well.  Barbarians are a really strong class, without any weak builds.  Thaneborns may seem weaker at first, but the amount of buffing they support the party with can really make a huge difference.  Controllers and any other strikers in the party will especially notice it.  HAE might be nice to have on them, but I generally suck up the loss of a few surges and make CHA/DEX co-secondary.  With or without HAE, their CHA won't scale as well as the secondary stat of most classes, but they also get more (and better) riders than other Barbarian builds.  I like to think of it as more frequent and useful uses of a smaller CHA bonus balancing out against the relatively insignificant Con riders (even pre-HAE-nerf).

I'll definitely second the call for a Con Shaman and Swarm Druid fix, though.  Con Shamans are largely ok after some non-thematic resource expenditure (still sucks for them, though), but Swarm Druids become really gimped as they level to the point where they're almost unplayable (unless they go Dex-secondary in which case why not just go with a Guardian/Predator build, or by being a Serene Runepriest hybrid).
Second Skin also needs to be left alone because its required to bring Warden AC on par with other tanks since, with the exception of the new shirt, their AC scales slower than heavy armor.
Second Skin also needs to be left alone because its required to bring Warden AC on par with other tanks since, with the exception of the new shirt, their AC scales slower than heavy armor.



But Warden's don't get hide armor expertise so it's okay. Smile

I'm also not sure why you think Barbarian is some kind of gimped whipping boy without HAE. The class is just fine without it, and never really needed it in the first place. Sure, it was nice to be able to go totally STR/CON with a dwarf and be proficient all around, but it wasn't worth the other imbalancing effects. I do wish that they kept some kind of fix for the shamans and swarm druids, however.


Yeah, this seems curious to me as well.  Barbarians are a really strong class, without any weak builds.  Thaneborns may seem weaker at first, but the amount of buffing they support the party with can really make a huge difference.  Controllers and any other strikers in the party will especially notice it.  HAE might be nice to have on them, but I generally suck up the loss of a few surges and make CHA/DEX co-secondary.  With or without HAE, their CHA won't scale as well as the secondary stat of most classes, but they also get more (and better) riders than other Barbarian builds.  I like to think of it as more frequent and useful uses of a smaller CHA bonus balancing out against the relatively insignificant Con riders (even pre-HAE-nerf).

I'll definitely second the call for a Con Shaman and Swarm Druid fix, though.  Con Shamans are largely ok after some non-thematic resource expenditure (still sucks for them, though), but Swarm Druids become really gimped as they level to the point where they're almost unplayable (unless they go Dex-secondary in which case why not just go with a Guardian/Predator build, or by being a Serene Runepriest hybrid).



Yes, they are super powerful, I just don't get why they killed this build.

It's the least powerful of all of them.

You just want to hurt barbarians arbitriarly and not actually solve the problem, don't you? -.-



No, I want you to learn how the game math works so that you don't make unbalancing houserules.

And much more importantly for your life as a whole, I want you to learn not to assume that people who disagree with your ideas are evil. Everyone is here to solve problems. I'm volunteering my time to help you at the moment. Your snippy and childish assumption of bad faith is not appreciated.



The problem is, my redoing of Hide Armor of Expertise has nothing to do with the scaling 1 AC and Reflex bonus, as you would get that without the feat.

So saying that you're not okay with my redescription of the feat becuase "It's similiar to the Scaling armor bonus of Avengers which is too high", which yes you mentioned that but were referring to Barbarians, is completely arbitriary.


Keeping this feat nerfed becuase you don't like the scaling AC and Reflex bonus on Barbarians will do absolutely NOTHING to nerf Barbarians as a whole becuase they'll just be able to go Dex and arguably do better.

That's my point, what you're suggestion is completely arbitriary to the feat itself, as if we assume that the armored agility is nerfed or not compared to other Barbarians it would be the same, and nerfing this feat or ignoring my suggestion won't solve the problem.
Second Skin also needs to be left alone because its required to bring Warden AC on par with other tanks since, with the exception of the new shirt, their AC scales slower than heavy armor.



But Warden's don't get hide armor expertise so it's okay.



Multiclass Barbarian, take Hide Armor Expertise.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Second Skin also needs to be left alone because its required to bring Warden AC on par with other tanks since, with the exception of the new shirt, their AC scales slower than heavy armor.



But Warden's don't get hide armor expertise so it's okay.



Multiclass Barbarian, take Hide Armor Expertise.



That's a waste of two feats and would be stupid to do as a Warden.

They already add their con to their armor without this feat.
Crap, Beserkers can add 2 AC to their AC whilst tanking anyways and going dex with unarmored agility puts them at about 19, and 21 if their defenses are activated.

If they aren't activated, they get to add a 1D6 to 1D8 to all their attacks, making them more OP than barbarians as their AC would be 19 without the shielding at-will and their attacks would do an extra 1D8 AND allow them to shift, WITHOUT having to use a two-handed weapon, although they can use them and still have that AC.

Yes, they are super powerful, I just don't get why they killed this build.

It's the least powerful of all of them.


Most Con Barbarians are Ragebloods, which is the most powerful build thanks to Swift Charge.  The build isn't dead, its stats are just slightly tweaked and it isn't quite as good for Str/Con races, though they still make really good Barbarians (heck, DWT was based around the assumption that Dwarves don't get a Str bonus so I'm not buying any arguments stating that Dwarves are gimped for a Str based class...). 

Crap, Beserkers can add 2 AC to their AC whilst tanking anyways and going dex with unarmored agility puts them at about 19, and 21 if their defenses are activated.

If they aren't activated, they get to add a 1D6 to 1D8 to all their attacks, making them more OP than barbarians as their AC would be 19 without the shielding at-will and their attacks would do an extra 1D8 AND allow them to shift, WITHOUT having to use a two-handed weapon, although they can use them and still have that AC.


Berserkers are more durable than O-Barbarians, yes, but they're designed that way (being out-of-the-box hybrid defenders and all).  They don't get Rampage or Feral Might, which can be significant for Ragebloods and Thaneborns at least (since they lose out on Swift Charge and the Thaneborn's superior riders, respectively).  In other words, they sacrifice some spike damage (and possibly some buffing/debuffing) for that durability.

Yes, they are super powerful, I just don't get why they killed this build.

It's the least powerful of all of them.


Most Con Barbarians are Ragebloods, which is the most powerful build thanks to Swift Charge.  The build isn't dead, its stats are just slightly tweaked and it isn't quite as good for Str/Con races, though they still make really good Barbarians (heck, DWT was based around the assumption that Dwarves don't get a Str bonus so I'm not buying any arguments stating that Dwarves are gimped for a Str based class...). 

Crap, Beserkers can add 2 AC to their AC whilst tanking anyways and going dex with unarmored agility puts them at about 19, and 21 if their defenses are activated.

If they aren't activated, they get to add a 1D6 to 1D8 to all their attacks, making them more OP than barbarians as their AC would be 19 without the shielding at-will and their attacks would do an extra 1D8 AND allow them to shift, WITHOUT having to use a two-handed weapon, although they can use them and still have that AC.


Berserkers are more durable than O-Barbarians, yes, but they're designed that way (being out-of-the-box hybrid defenders and all).  They don't get Rampage or Feral Might, which can be significant for Ragebloods and Thaneborns at least (since they lose out on Swift Charge and the Thaneborn's superior riders, respectively).  In other words, they sacrifice some spike damage (and possibly some buffing/debuffing) for that durability.



The extra con you would get though is relativley insignifigiant in terms of damage. Improved Rageblood vigor just gives a flat 5 temp hit points modifier, and you would maybe get +2-4 damage to some attacks that would already do like 3[W]+ with a two-handed weapon. O_o

So it's addition to power is relativley insignifigant, and ragebloods just go dex now and it doesn't seem to hurt them that much. Tongue Out


Actually improved iniative and reflex.

For meager damage on some abilities that might add con modifier, and equal AC if you took a feat.

I'll definitely second the call for a Con Shaman and Swarm Druid fix, though.  Con Shamans are largely ok after some non-thematic resource expenditure (still sucks for them, though), but Swarm Druids become really gimped as they level to the point where they're almost unplayable (unless they go Dex-secondary in which case why not just go with a Guardian/Predator build, or by being a Serene Runepriest hybrid).

I'd like to see Hide Armor Expertise go back to the way it was with the exception of it being a druid/shaman feat and giving it and barbarian agility bonus the same type so they don't stack. That way Con druids/shamans have some AC and barbarians can't poach it.

I'll definitely second the call for a Con Shaman and Swarm Druid fix, though.  Con Shamans are largely ok after some non-thematic resource expenditure (still sucks for them, though), but Swarm Druids become really gimped as they level to the point where they're almost unplayable (unless they go Dex-secondary in which case why not just go with a Guardian/Predator build, or by being a Serene Runepriest hybrid).

I'd like to see Hide Armor Expertise go back to the way it was with the exception of it being a druid/shaman feat and giving it and barbarian agility bonus the same type so they don't stack. That way Con druids/shamans have some AC and barbarians can't poach it.




...barbarians could still go Dex and have just as much AC.

The extra con you would get though is relativley insignifigiant in terms of damage. Improved Rageblood vigor just gives a flat 5 temp hit points modifier, and you would maybe get +2-4 damage to some attacks that would already do like 3[W]+ with a two-handed weapon. O_o

So it's addition to power is relativley insignifigant, and ragebloods just go dex now and it doesn't seem to hurt them that much.


I wasn't talking about the THP part of Rageblood Vigor, that's not really worth considering after low Heroic.  Swift Charge is the money maker, and it doesn't rely on Con.  That's the point I was trying to make.  Ragebloods are the most powerful Barbarian build and they aren't nerfed that much by HAE because they don't get much out of Con to begin with.
I'll definitely second the call for a Con Shaman and Swarm Druid fix, though.  Con Shamans are largely ok after some non-thematic resource expenditure (still sucks for them, though), but Swarm Druids become really gimped as they level to the point where they're almost unplayable (unless they go Dex-secondary in which case why not just go with a Guardian/Predator build, or by being a Serene Runepriest hybrid).

I'd like to see Hide Armor Expertise go back to the way it was with the exception of it being a druid/shaman feat and giving it and barbarian agility bonus the same type so they don't stack. That way Con druids/shamans have some AC and barbarians can't poach it.




...barbarians could still go Dex and have just as much AC.


Except they won't, because a Dex Barbarian won't qualify for Second Skin.
I'll definitely second the call for a Con Shaman and Swarm Druid fix, though.  Con Shamans are largely ok after some non-thematic resource expenditure (still sucks for them, though), but Swarm Druids become really gimped as they level to the point where they're almost unplayable (unless they go Dex-secondary in which case why not just go with a Guardian/Predator build, or by being a Serene Runepriest hybrid).

I'd like to see Hide Armor Expertise go back to the way it was with the exception of it being a druid/shaman feat and giving it and barbarian agility bonus the same type so they don't stack. That way Con druids/shamans have some AC and barbarians can't poach it.




...barbarians could still go Dex and have just as much AC.


Except they won't, because a Dex Barbarian won't qualify for Second Skin.



Which is why you make the feat so you are unable to benefit from Second Skin and Hide armor profiency at later levels.


The extra con you would get though is relativley insignifigiant in terms of damage. Improved Rageblood vigor just gives a flat 5 temp hit points modifier, and you would maybe get +2-4 damage to some attacks that would already do like 3[W]+ with a two-handed weapon. O_o

So it's addition to power is relativley insignifigant, and ragebloods just go dex now and it doesn't seem to hurt them that much.


I wasn't talking about the THP part of Rageblood Vigor, that's not really worth considering after low Heroic.  Swift Charge is the money maker, and it doesn't rely on Con.  That's the point I was trying to make.  Ragebloods are the most powerful Barbarian build and they aren't nerfed that much by HAE because they don't get much out of Con to begin with.



Mhhm.

Rageblood barbarians benefit quite a bit even with low Con. Tongue Out
I'll definitely second the call for a Con Shaman and Swarm Druid fix, though.  Con Shamans are largely ok after some non-thematic resource expenditure (still sucks for them, though), but Swarm Druids become really gimped as they level to the point where they're almost unplayable (unless they go Dex-secondary in which case why not just go with a Guardian/Predator build, or by being a Serene Runepriest hybrid).

I'd like to see Hide Armor Expertise go back to the way it was with the exception of it being a druid/shaman feat and giving it and barbarian agility bonus the same type so they don't stack. That way Con druids/shamans have some AC and barbarians can't poach it.




...barbarians could still go Dex and have just as much AC.


Except they won't, because a Dex Barbarian won't qualify for Second Skin.



Which is why you make the feat so you are unable to benefit from Second Skin and Hide armor profiency at later levels.


Better to give shamans/druids some love instead of giving it to barbarians and messing with second skin. Barbarians don't need MORE AC help but shamans/druids do

I'll definitely second the call for a Con Shaman and Swarm Druid fix, though.  Con Shamans are largely ok after some non-thematic resource expenditure (still sucks for them, though), but Swarm Druids become really gimped as they level to the point where they're almost unplayable (unless they go Dex-secondary in which case why not just go with a Guardian/Predator build, or by being a Serene Runepriest hybrid).

I'd like to see Hide Armor Expertise go back to the way it was with the exception of it being a druid/shaman feat and giving it and barbarian agility bonus the same type so they don't stack. That way Con druids/shamans have some AC and barbarians can't poach it.




...barbarians could still go Dex and have just as much AC.


Except they won't, because a Dex Barbarian won't qualify for Second Skin.



Which is why you make the feat so you are unable to benefit from Second Skin and Hide armor profiency at later levels.


Better to give shamans/druids some love instead of giving it to barbarians and messing with second skin. Barbarians don't need MORE AC help but shamans/druids do




Then make it so Barbarians can't take Second Skin and Hide armor profiency. Tongue Out
Finally, while Barbarians have little reason to use shields, you severely overestimate the impact of a two-handed weapon. A Barbarian who opts to use the Rapier instead of the Gouge, for instance, will still be in the same damage class they were before, because weapon dice are a relatively small component of damage at higher levels, meaning the difference in [W] damage between the two will generally be made up for by the fact that the rapier wielder is significantly more accurate. People don't do this primarily because it's antithematic.

You might not be aware that the barbarian actually has the highest [W] attacks in the game, as they were given large [W] attacks to make up for the lack of a dedicated striker mechanic.

9[W]x3.5 = 31 damage loss for using a rapier instead of a gouge. You'd need to have a +62 static damage mod to have the accuracy make up for the damage loss, which is dubious.

For smaller [W] hits, though, the greatspear is often the weapon of choice for the accuracy and reach. I like rolling tons of d6s, though. It's like playing a 3e wizard.

I wasn't talking about the THP part of Rageblood Vigor, that's not really worth considering after low Heroic.  Swift Charge is the money maker, and it doesn't rely on Con.  That's the point I was trying to make.  Ragebloods are the most powerful Barbarian build and they aren't nerfed that much by HAE because they don't get much out of Con to begin with.

Rageblood Vigor is wicked powerful. With IRV and a cheap belt, you can get a substantial number of temps every time you kill something. My barbarian is usually the guy who deals with all those exploding minions that are so common these days.

"18 damage? No problem, my temps absorb it. And, oh, hey, I just got 19 temps." In the last battle interactive, I probably absorbed 100-200 points of damage this way.

With a reparation apparatus, it was even better.
Then make it so Barbarians can't take Second Skin and Hide armor profiency. Tongue Out

First, barbarians get hide profiency from their class. Tongue Out 

Second, Con shamans/druids need an AC buff and barbarians don't. A second skin 'patch' doesn't solve the AC problem, except to keep barbarians from getting even farther ahead in AC from druid/shamans. To be blunt, 'make it so Barbarians can't take Second Skin and Hide armor Hide [Armor Expertise]' doesn't help the classes that really need Hide Armor Expertise.

Finally, while Barbarians have little reason to use shields, you severely overestimate the impact of a two-handed weapon. A Barbarian who opts to use the Rapier instead of the Gouge, for instance, will still be in the same damage class they were before, because weapon dice are a relatively small component of damage at higher levels, meaning the difference in [W] damage between the two will generally be made up for by the fact that the rapier wielder is significantly more accurate. People don't do this primarily because it's antithematic.

You might not be aware that the barbarian actually has the highest [W] attacks in the game, as they were given large [W] attacks to make up for the lack of a dedicated striker mechanic.

9[W]x3.5 = 31 damage loss for using a rapier instead of a gouge. You'd need to have a +62 static damage mod to have the accuracy make up for the damage loss, which is dubious.

For smaller [W] hits, though, the greatspear is often the weapon of choice for the accuracy and reach. I like rolling tons of d6s, though. It's like playing a 3e wizard.

I wasn't talking about the THP part of Rageblood Vigor, that's not really worth considering after low Heroic.  Swift Charge is the money maker, and it doesn't rely on Con.  That's the point I was trying to make.  Ragebloods are the most powerful Barbarian build and they aren't nerfed that much by HAE because they don't get much out of Con to begin with.

Rageblood Vigor is wicked powerful. With IRV and a cheap belt, you can get a substantial number of temps every time you kill something. My barbarian is usually the guy who deals with all those exploding minions that are so common these days.

"18 damage? No problem, my temps absorb it. And, oh, hey, I just got 19 temps." In the last battle interactive, I probably absorbed 100-200 points of damage this way.

With a reparation apparatus, it was even better.



Which belt? O_o
Then make it so Barbarians can't take Second Skin and Hide armor profiency. Tongue Out

First, barbarians get hide profiency from their class. Tongue Out 

Second, Con shamans/druids need an AC buff and barbarians don't. A second skin 'patch' doesn't solve the AC problem, except to keep barbarians from getting even farther ahead in AC from druid/shamans. To be blunt, 'make it so Barbarians can't take Second Skin and Hide armor Hide [Armor Expertise]' doesn't help the classes that really need Hide Armor Expertise.




Yeah, lots of classes get rather low AC, it happens.

That's why you make it so Hide Armor expertise is present for Barbarians but to where they can't get Second skin or hide armor profiency as to not make them too OP, and let Druids and Shamans get it as well with the scaling con bonus.


Also, you won't take away second skin from Wardens and stuff.

So it's cool.
Yeah, lots of classes get rather low AC, it happens.

Ahhh... Con druids and shamans have to work hard to get a 'rather low AC'. Swarm druids have to get in the thick of it with next to no AC. The damage reduction isn't very impressive when you're an almost auto-hit. All the ranged classes are beating out your melee AC. Leather+ no int/dex=AC suck. Yell

That's why you make it so Hide Armor expertise is present for Barbarians but to where they can't get Second skin or hide armor profiency as to not make them too OP, and let Druids and Shamans get it as well with the scaling con bonus.

Barbarians have hide proficiency and couldn't get get hide armor expertise without it. This makes no sense.


IMO Hide Armor expertise shouldn't be as great a cost as it is for Con druids/shamans and should be more of a cost for a barbarian.  

Yeah, lots of classes get rather low AC, it happens.

Ahhh... Con druids and shamans have to work hard to get a 'rather low AC'. Swarm druids have to get in the thick of it with next to no AC. The damage reduction isn't very impressive when you're an almost auto-hit. All the ranged classes are beating out your melee AC. Leather+ no int/dex=AC suck. Yell

That's why you make it so Hide Armor expertise is present for Barbarians but to where they can't get Second skin or hide armor profiency as to not make them too OP, and let Druids and Shamans get it as well with the scaling con bonus.

Barbarians have hide proficiency and couldn't get get hide armor expertise without it. This makes no sense.


IMO Hide Armor expertise shouldn't be as great a cost as it is for Con druids/shamans and should be more of a cost for a barbarian.  




Um... I meant hide armor specialization* Tongue Out

Char Barbarians have crap armor, as do Sorcerers, as do melee Rangers, as do a lot of classes I suppose.


Hide armor expertise could hopefully help with some of those, if you took con as your second stat as a melee ranger, for instance.

Some builds methinks were designed to have rather bad armor.


But this would allow Shamans, Druids, Con Warlocks, Con-Melee Rangers, Con Barbarians, and a few other classes and builds to have pretty good AC if they went that route, that seem to be alright with relativley higher AC, so I think it would be fine.

What you could do is just say that only wardens, shamans, and druids could benefit from second skin and hide armor specialization at later levels, but then someone could just multi-class that class so idk, you'd have to make it class specific- maybe just make it so barbarians can't get those feats.
Dude. Do you want to learn, or do you want to be right (where right stands for 'horribly, horribly wrong and ignorant of how things actually work')? Because you're making us beat our heads against the wall of your pigheadedness, and it's getting really damn boring. Look, we can teach you the stuff you're not getting in five posts, but you need to stop trying to justify yourself. Chillax, man. It's OK to be wrong. We're here to teach you the truth about math and make it fun in the process.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).