About craft or any skill that requires days and weeks

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How do I translate the time it takes to craft an item or to train an animal? Let's say I'm told that it'll take three weeks to finally craft what I want, then.....well, the campaign in GAME time finishes in a matter of days (I think, I've never actually been through pre-published adventures), a week at most, in real life, that could mean weeks, maybe even a month or so if we DnD once a week. GAME time is moving at a crawl, while real life is going by like a marathon runner. I don't want to tell my players 4-6 weeks later 'okay, you're done training your new animal/crafting your new sword' to a reply of 'doing the what now?', or worse, 'great, now I have something to sharpen my NEW weapon on/feed my new companion'.
What kind of translation are you looking for?

If you're trying to figure out how three weeks of time in the game world translates into playing time and/or real world time there are no clear answers. Some big adventures seem like they shoot PC levels through the roof by starting at low level and then having them level up every day or so in ingame time if not faster.  Now most CAMPAIGNS actually have downtime which is severely lacking in some adventures and it is during this down time that you would actually spend those three weeks doing something.  In real world terms you can easily play YEARS worth of ingame time in minutes or hours.

I'm sorry to tell you this but if a group is on a tight schedule then they aren't really going to have time for crafting and other time consuming tasks unless you build them in.  The thing is that PCs do NOT need to be "adventuring" all the time and should be able to take days, weeks, and even years off between "adventures" which can make it perfectly fine to say they've just spent 4-6 weeks doing something without taking any of your game time away.
 
Thanks, the thing is my group is on a once a week schedule, and sadly it's about 4-5 hours a week (SOMETIMES more). I also think I may have worded my question badly, I think a campaign is an entire story, not just one story arc, right? I actually meant between story arcs (I keep calling the smaller story arcs campaigns). The thing is, is that let's say at the start of a story arc (I just got the pathfinder carrion crown series so I'll use that for this example), the haunting of harrowstone is supposed to take PC's from level 1-3(5? 6?) and I was curious, supposing that an adventure/story arc doesn't have any real time constraints (the world isn't going to end tomorrow, you've still got a week or two), is it possible to use the craft skill DURING the adventure? Or is it that the thing is meant to be used between published adventures?

Sadly most adventures I skim through (maybe if I took a closer look) don't seem to indicate how much of the action happens in a day (although given that I'm using PF (or at least 3/3.5e), resources will be spent and will have to be regained through actual sleep, so I guess I need to find a time to say 'day is over, head back to the tavern'). If I could figure out how many days transpire during the adventure I could consider craft to be a passive skill and make the assumption that the characters are working on this on each of those days. As for downtime between adventures, I'm worried that it'll make putting points in the craft skill to be pointless (pun not intended), in the course of years, even with a low score, they could still craft/train whatever they want, unless I could make those years take a toll on the characters (the problem is, sure they age, but if they take certain races, it won't matter, in fact if some of them take races like humans while others take elves, the years will take a toll on some players but leave others unscathed Frown). I'd give them weeks and months of game time to spend crafting and training, but without other occurences during this period, or consequences, I may as well give them the item....I really wish I had players that would tell me 'I try to find love/get married/enter tournaments/make a holy pilgrimage/SOMETHING during this period', but my players need to be railroaded and when it comes to RP, I feel they have no initiative Yell. I sadly have to give them the task of crafting DURING the adventure, downtime that is declared during real time means (and this is ALL it means to them) they have an excuse to get an item (at a smaller cost than buying it).
Overall, I wouldn't worry too much about possible abuse of the Craft skill saving too much money.  By itself it's typically used to make relatively inexpensive items (compared to the vastly more expensive magical items), and you need to invest skill ranks that could be used on something else to be particularly good at it, which is its own way of paying.

As for whether or not they have time for crafting during an individual adventure, that's really up to you as the DM.  They'll have as much time as you decide to give them.

To encourage roleplaying, you'll probably have to prod the players into it and throw in some specific hooks (like describing notices posted up for a tournament, if you thought it might be interesting).  It's basically just like an adventure hook, except that you're trolling for a different kind of catch.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Overall, I wouldn't worry too much about possible abuse of the Craft skill saving too much money.  By itself it's typically used to make relatively inexpensive items (compared to the vastly more expensive magical items), and you need to invest skill ranks that could be used on something else to be particularly good at it, which is its own way of paying.

As for whether or not they have time for crafting during an individual adventure, that's really up to you as the DM.  They'll have as much time as you decide to give them.

To encourage roleplaying, you'll probably have to prod the players into it and throw in some specific hooks (like describing notices posted up for a tournament, if you thought it might be interesting).  It's basically just like an adventure hook, except that you're trolling for a different kind of catch.



The thing is I'm not worried about them abusing it, I'm worried that the skill system for it will go untouched when there's a huge window of opportunity for a player to get to crafting his own weapon and becoming attached to something he put effort into making.

As for the other point, I suppose I'll have to, but the thing is I really wish they'd try and make their characters come alive. A typical night consists of one RPer who talks little better than a character in a linear video game who's trying to get from one dialogue option to the next (never saying very much, just trying to get the gist of what characters say to him, no real attempt to engage the world on his own), then we've got the guy toying around on his phone (wouldn't be surprised if there's a ton of people who have the same complaint though), the guy who's sitting with us but his mind is on a whole other plane and the optimizing rules lawyer (there's always a rules lawyer -.-').
The thing is I'm not worried about them abusing it, I'm worried that the skill system for it will go untouched when there's a huge window of opportunity for a player to get to crafting his own weapon and becoming attached to something he put effort into making.

It might go untouched, but the player might equally get attached to an item he discovered while adventuring.  I wouldn't worry too much about it; it's just one of many possibilities.
As for the other point, I suppose I'll have to, but the thing is I really wish they'd try and make their characters come alive.

Wishes are nice, but since that's not what they're currently doing, you'll need to encourage them.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The thing is I'm not worried about them abusing it, I'm worried that the skill system for it will go untouched when there's a huge window of opportunity for a player to get to crafting his own weapon and becoming attached to something he put effort into making.

As for the other point, I suppose I'll have to, but the thing is I really wish they'd try and make their characters come alive. A typical night consists of one RPer who talks little better than a character in a linear video game who's trying to get from one dialogue option to the next (never saying very much, just trying to get the gist of what characters say to him, no real attempt to engage the world on his own), then we've got the guy toying around on his phone (wouldn't be surprised if there's a ton of people who have the same complaint though), the guy who's sitting with us but his mind is on a whole other plane and the optimizing rules lawyer (there's always a rules lawyer -.-').


Here's a thought: What are the characters they're playing? 

Barring extreme "Man With No Name" types (and an entire party of that is hard to do, even with things like the ghostwalker), every one of them should at least have some form of motivation. Or family. Or allegiance within the game world. All of these can be hooked as motivation for their next adventure - even if it's just greed for money. You can use that to put them in situations where their characters' values drive them. That, plus having one or mroe experienced roleplayers to model their behaviour after, can be all you need to get people roleplaying. (Well, with really new players or shy ones, I find that reminding them that they don't need to speak in character if they don't want to helps as well. You then encourage them indirectly to want to. It's classic foot-in-the-door, rather than door-to-the-face.)

Note that this doesn't require things like the Craft system or anything mechanical (although it helps) nor voluntary hooks like posters. Reach in yourself and have the villains be proactive, pulling something the PCs want. Maybe there's a cry for help from the fighter's brother, who didn't know who else to turn to when the baron ruling over his village turned the local police to thuggery (perhaps in the name of a bigger evil guy leaning on him). Maybe the druid gets a vision in the night that's just vague enough to get her to look for more information to try to understand it (players hate unsolved mysteries - and in a mechanics-heavy player, you can motivate him to keep trying simply by having him roll something like a Wisdom check or similar regardless of what you were going to tell him, so he thinks there's something he can do to find out more)... only to find that the usual magical methods of contacting her superiors don't go through. Maybe the rogue gets an offer for a bucketload of money simply for looting a dungeon, on the condition that the rest of the team doesn't know who's paying him... only to find that the offer comes from a villain the PCs had thwarted earlier, who is waiting at the exit of the dungeon with a small elite band of assassins, and another offer to the rogue, for triple the reward if he switches sides. Maybe, while in foreign parts, the PCs get a cold reception in towns they wouldn't expect it from, only to find out it's because their home country is marching to war through the foreign territories (or perhaps against the foreign territories) for an obviously unjust reason, and they're forced to go through an uphill SOCIAL struggle to earn the locals' support, or thwart the war... or perhaps even join in their country's cause (if, in a subversion of trope, the invading army is actually on the side of right and any evidence to the contrary is misleading).

Until they think of the game world as they would a real, living place, they have no hope of placing their characters within it. And without that placement, they won't make use of parts of the game designed to interact with the world as if it were a real, living place. I find it's easiest to do this with the carrot style (i.e. "Look! Plot!") rather than the stick style (i.e. "Everyone has to spend at least 4 skill points on a backstory-relevant Profession skill"), as although the stick can help nudge new players in that direction, a cleverly-placed carrot can get them to do more, and be intrinsically motivated while they do so.


Incidentally, I say this as the optimizing rules-lawyer in my group. In fact, five of the six people at my game table are "optimizing rules lawyers" (and the sixth plays tightly optimized characters in his own right, although he had a bit of help realizing his concepts since he's less intimately familiar with the rules than the other five). Six of the six also enjoy a good story and can get into character reasonably well, with me, perhaps, being the worst at it (as I have a hard time playing against type, so I usually pick characters that force me to do so). It's worth noting that these two sides don't necessarily conflict (indeed, they are logically independent), and being "low" on one scale isn't a problem so long as the entire team is all more or less on the same place.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

 

5e Eberron homebrew rules | Discussion: 5e Artificer

@tempest
The thing is they have no character concepts, for the last year or so they've been treating DnD as combat sessions with the DM being the one to do all the RPing (though that being said, THAT particular DM (the optimizing rules lawyer I mentioned previously) also railroaded his players (who would've been lost without it, this particular group would've been stranded in whatever area the DM didn't craft a big red 'HERE' sign in, so I don't blame him for the railroading) and cared more that he got to tell a story that he really wanted to share, so he probably barely realized that while he was (excitedly) telling his story, the players were on mars), but then again they were playing 4e with a DM who only had eyes for optimization (his RP usually consisted of having the 'cool' persona every time, no character flaws, no real interest in having a history that defined his character and was pretty much paragon path shepherd from mass effect for the most part (save for one or two renegade choices occasionally), and this was for every character too).

I'm hopefully going to try and be their DM soon and try to bring the world to life for them. I remember making them an exalted (white wolf system) session a while back and seeing them REALLY get into their personas, I'll try and bring a world to life around them to make them excited about RPing again (will also try and push the rules lawyer (he can RP interesting characters, but he needs prodding to do so) to do so as well). I'll allow them to take any race they want (provided it doesn't have racial hit dice), and if they take a monster race, I'll tell them to either skill up disguise or stealth because they will be treated like monsters wherever they go (I'm hoping that if they're aware of what's happening around their character, they'll feel like he's an actual entity rather than a character sheet filled with numbers).

@slagger
Thanks, that actually gave me an idea, will look over my weapons of legacy book, thinking maybe I can give them weapons with either personas or side quests to boost their weapons capabilities.
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