What must be completed before 4e ends?

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For argument's sake, lets assume for a moment that WotC is working on 5e. (please do not turn this thread into a debate on 5e)  This would mean that there is a definite endpoint on new official 4e material. Again, let's assume that 5e is a year away and WotC has 12 months to wrap up 4e.

Question: What absolutely must be done for 4e to be considered "finished" so that it can happily sit on the shelf and be played by future generations.

Has this point already been reached?
I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Most things I'd be interested in buying are actually inspirations, but they're not neccesarily bound by rules. There's a lot of stuff available and it's easy enough to make my own when it's not there...

So yeah, I don't think there's anything really missing, even if there's plenty of stuff that can still be done.
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Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Personally I'd like to see a reprint of PHB1. I know it's probably not going to happen, but I do feel that an updated version of the book that includes all of the Class Compendium rewrites and rules revisions would go a long way towards ensuring that 4e is a game that can easily be played 30 years from now without having to reference a dozen different Dragon articles.
Since I assume that a lot of people use DDI (aka the Builder and the Compendium) to play 4th Edition, I actually think that nobody would bother with the edition anymore if those tools weren't supported anymore. 

So, to answer your question: free access to all DDI tools (character builder, compendium, monster builder, Dragon and Dungeon magazine content). But not before 5th Edition has been published, obv. 

With regards to actual content (mechanical or otherwise), I second Pluisjen. Even if content production for 4E would stop tomorrow, there would be enough material to keep playing for years and years. 
We still need power books for neglected classes. I see only the martial classes, wizard, cleric, warlock, druid, and maybe some others complete. Especially PHB3 classes need more material.

DMG3 focusing on epic tier is needed. Many DMs have serious problems in challenging the characters at that tier.

More errata is also needed as there are many known problems that need fixing.

Otherwise the edition is pretty complete. More adventures and campaign settings would always be welcome.
So yeah, I don't think there's anything really missing, even if there's plenty of stuff that can still be done.

This best represents my view. 4e has given me everything I need, and most of what I want. (I am not sure it could give me the rest of what I want.)
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
DMG3 focusing on epic tier is needed. Many DMs have serious problems in challenging the characters at that tier.




+1

Nothing, and everything. 

If they added nothing more, it'd still be a great system.

But what they could add is limitless, and it would be awesome.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Since I assume that a lot of people use DDI (aka the Builder and the Compendium) to play 4th Edition, I actually think that nobody would bother with the edition anymore if those tools weren't supported anymore. 




Interesting. Do you think that if WotC were to remove the 4e digital tools when 5e comes out that it would kill the edition outright?

Can 4e only only survive into the future if digital tools are available?
Since I assume that a lot of people use DDI (aka the Builder and the Compendium) to play 4th Edition, I actually think that nobody would bother with the edition anymore if those tools weren't supported anymore. 




Interesting. Do you think that if WotC were to remove the 4e digital tools when 5e comes out that it would kill the edition outright?

Can 4e only only survive into the future if digital tools are available?

Why WOULD they stop providing the 4e tools? It is just files on a server somewhere that presumably would be supporting 5e DDI anyway. You subscribe, you get access to both. Seems pretty much fine to me. Notice that WotC still serves up all the 3.5 content they have on their server, they never took any of that down.

There are tons of cool things that COULD be done with 4e still. Honestly I don't really know why people would want to have to buy all the same stuff all over again for 5e instead of getting actual new interesting cool 4e stuff that builds on what we have already.

There's not really a lot of crunch that 4e NEEDS at this point. There could be a whole bunch of epic monsters though, adventures, better tools, more articles for different settings and cool things to do with the game. Heck, AD&D barely scratched the surface in 20+ years.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
I agree that there is little crunch that 4e needs, and therein lies the problem for 4e. If the edition is "complete", is there any financial reason for WotC to continue to support it?

I think the problem with D&D (and any RPG) lies in the old business model of selling individual products (usually books) to make money from D&D. The products that always make the most money are player crunch books but they're the products that bloat any edition and make it susceptible to breakage. When an edition becomes bloated and broken a lot of fans are turned off. The products that are least likely to break the game are DM products that generally don't sell well: adventures and campaign settings/fluff books. Look at all the backlash towards Dragon as they scale down the number of crunch heavy player articles and increase the number of "Backdrop" style articles.

Contrast this old model to the online only subscription model. As long as people are willing to keep paying a monthly subscription to play the game, WotC might feel less pressure to keep cranking out player oriented products that only bloat the game. They can focus on new and improved tools and DM material to keep adventures rolling along.

In fact, I think that's exactly what is happening and is the reason why player content has dropped off considerably in the last year.

It may seem strange, but the online only subscription model may in fact save 4e from the late edition bloat that doomed previous editions and perhaps allow it survive well into the future.
Took the words right out of my mouth abdul.
I can't really think of anything that is necessary. The edition is pretty solid.
I would like to see Unearthed Arcana, like 3.5's. That book was great and provided tons of ways to mix up play (sanity pts, heeeeeeck yeah!)   
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Took the words right out of my mouth abdul.
I can't really think of anything that is necessary. The edition is pretty solid.
I would like to see Unearthed Arcana, like 3.5's. That book was great and provided tons of ways to mix up play (sanity pts, heeeeeeck yeah!)   



I never played 3.x (one game session doesnt count) and yet I have pulled one of the UA rules (Players make all the rolls? I think it was called) in to fourth edition rather successfully. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 



There are tons of cool things that COULD be done with 4e still. Honestly I don't really know why people would want to have to buy all the same stuff all over again for 5e instead of getting actual new interesting cool 4e stuff that builds on what we have already.

There's not really a lot of crunch that 4e NEEDS at this point. There could be a whole bunch of epic monsters though, adventures, better tools, more articles for different settings and cool things to do with the game. Heck, AD&D barely scratched the surface in 20+ years.



I'm going with this.   It took me a loooong time to let go of versions 1 and 2; so long that I skipped version 3 almost entirely.   Currently, my players and I love 4e, and I've utterly zero interest in any version beyond 4e.   I mean, I'm sure it's possible they could come out with a newer version that's great fun, but I will never even give it a glance.    The current version has everything I want, with a million unexplored possibilities.  If I had my way, there would never be another version, just steady, incremental improvements and additions to this one.


I agree that there is little crunch that 4e needs, and therein lies the problem for 4e. If the edition is "complete", is there any financial reason for WotC to continue to support it?.

This is my greatest concern regarding 4e.

I can't picture improvements that a 5e could have that will wow me enough to stop playing 4e. But I rely heavily on the electronic tools (for which I gladly pay). If those stop, I don't think I'll switch to 5e. Rather, I will be hunting the used book stores, eBay, etc to complete the purchase of the books I don't have and will be forced to learn to build a 4e character from the ground up!
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
Since I assume that a lot of people use DDI (aka the Builder and the Compendium) to play 4th Edition, I actually think that nobody would bother with the edition anymore if those tools weren't supported anymore. 




Interesting. Do you think that if WotC were to remove the 4e digital tools when 5e comes out that it would kill the edition outright?

Can 4e only only survive into the future if digital tools are available?


It would survive, just allot of people would not be pleased. 

Personally I would want to see a rules encyclopedia product akin to the core rules CDs from 2nd edition, possibly provided free to anyone who had subscribed to insider for some minimum total duration
I think the problem with D&D (and any RPG) lies in the old business model of selling individual products (usually books) to make money from D&D. The products that always make the most money are player crunch books but they're the products that bloat any edition and make it susceptible to breakage. When an edition becomes bloated and broken a lot of fans are turned off. The products that are least likely to break the game are DM products that generally don't sell well: adventures and campaign settings/fluff books. Look at all the backlash towards Dragon as they scale down the number of crunch heavy player articles and increase the number of "Backdrop" style articles.

Contrast this old model to the online only subscription model. As long as people are willing to keep paying a monthly subscription to play the game, WotC might feel less pressure to keep cranking out player oriented products that only bloat the game. They can focus on new and improved tools and DM material to keep adventures rolling along.

In fact, I think that's exactly what is happening and is the reason why player content has dropped off considerably in the last year.

It may seem strange, but the online only subscription model may in fact save 4e from the late edition bloat that doomed previous editions and perhaps allow it survive well into the future.


I hear there's another pretty popular game that utilizes this model (hint: it rhymes with Cult Love Starcraft). 
I think the problem with D&D (and any RPG) lies in the old business model of selling individual products (usually books) to make money from D&D. The products that always make the most money are player crunch books but they're the products that bloat any edition and make it susceptible to breakage. When an edition becomes bloated and broken a lot of fans are turned off. The products that are least likely to break the game are DM products that generally don't sell well: adventures and campaign settings/fluff books. Look at all the backlash towards Dragon as they scale down the number of crunch heavy player articles and increase the number of "Backdrop" style articles.

Contrast this old model to the online only subscription model. As long as people are willing to keep paying a monthly subscription to play the game, WotC might feel less pressure to keep cranking out player oriented products that only bloat the game. They can focus on new and improved tools and DM material to keep adventures rolling along.

In fact, I think that's exactly what is happening and is the reason why player content has dropped off considerably in the last year.

It may seem strange, but the online only subscription model may in fact save 4e from the late edition bloat that doomed previous editions and perhaps allow it survive well into the future.


I hear there's another pretty popular game that utilizes this model (hint: it rhymes with Cult Love Starcraft).

Actually that popular game is constantly  cranking out new stuff to keep the customers subscribing

More epic tier material definetly. I love playing epic tier games, but no one I play with really runs one because there's no real challenge to it.

Hell, last on we ran, me (Trolling focused wizard) and one rogue(critfishing stiker) soloed a Solo for our level. I kept it perma-Dazed/Stunned while the Rogue smacked it over and over again. Lucky for him the rest of our party was held up by a..*snicker...just a rockslide.*laughs*...sorry, it was funny at that point, when all 5 of us could either phase through it or fly the pit next to it.


I hear there's another pretty popular game that utilizes this model (hint: it rhymes with Cult Love Starcraft).



Actually that popular game is constantly  cranking out new stuff to keep the customers subscribing




True, but look at what that new stuff is... 95% of it is new zones, quests, dungeons, raids and item sets. It's only about once per year that they release new character material and even then it's usually only 1 or 2 new races and one new class. The vast majority of people I know who play WoW say they don't even want new classes or races, they only want new content to explore. I think this is what any single edition of D&D needs to do to stay alive. Quit bloating player options and get back to producing high quality settings and adventures and provide players and DM's the best tools available to make those adventures happen.

I can't see any way for this model to make a lot of money other than using a subscription based service.
It would survive, just allot of people would not be pleased. [...]


I think this is the understatement of the century. If WotC pulled the plug on the 4E Compendium and online Character Builder to pitch 5E these forums would detonate with the fury of a thousand suns. It would absolutely and irrevocably kill WotC's credibility as a service provider. No... not even the suits at WotC/Hasbro could be that suicidal. At least I hope so...
It would survive, just allot of people would not be pleased. [...]


I think this is the understatement of the century. If WotC pulled the plug on the 4E Compendium and online Character Builder to pitch 5E these forums would detonate with the fury of a thousand suns. It would absolutely and irrevocably kill WotC's credibility as a service provider. No... not even the suits at WotC/Hasbro could be that suicidal. At least I hope so...



I agree that WotC would not abandon the 4e tools (and thereby kill off 4e).

Pure speculation:

Instead I think that 5e will move towards an almost entirely digital subscription based offering. Only the absolute core material would be published in book form. Anyone who subscribes to DDI will get access to all of the new 5e material but will also continue to have access to the old 4e tools, albeit in a frozen state. People will pay a single flat fee for access to both of the 4e and 5e editions. Heck, if WotC really wanted to appeal to all D&D fans they also put all of their old 1e - 3e material online as some sort of read only documents. Give the players everything for a single subscription fee. WoW has been doing this for 7 years and they still have 13 million paid subscribers.

Making all editions available for one subscription is win-win for WotC because they can still pump out new material for the new edition without completely alienating their old fan base.

Think this would work?
      The day I learn 5e is on the way is pretty much going to be the end of my 4e purchases.  It doesn't matter how "complete" the canon is, it is now on the way out and I have lost all interest in paying retail.  [I might not even bother with the remainder prices.]  Details about what 5e will be is much more incomplete, but will be much more valuable.  I am more likely to switch to Pathfinder than I am to want to buy more 4e.
     Once I have enough to play, the game is complete enough.  I will want more, but there is no end to that.  As long I will be playing I will want more, but there is no limit to that.  There is no 10 volume set that has any special need.  If the game ends, I may not even get volume 6, and if it continues, I may be be buying volume 20.
      The day I learn 5e is on the way is pretty much going to be the end of my 4e purchases.  It doesn't matter how "complete" the canon is, it is now on the way out and I have lost all interest in paying retail.  [I might not even bother with the remainder prices.]  Details about what 5e will be is much more incomplete, but will be much more valuable.  I am more likely to switch to Pathfinder than I am to want to buy more 4e.

On the latter point I'm pretty much the opposite: I am more likely to buy used 4e books and cut the pages out of the bindings so I can feed them through a double-sided scanner and get image files, than to buy 3.5E again from any publisher.

5E, for me to want to buy it, has to at least be as massive an improvement on previous (before 4E) editions as 4E, and preferably better - AND must be (legally) available electronically.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
To those who are about to read this - keep in mind this is only the opinion of an admitted completionist. To compete 4e in my mind they still need a Feywild box set to match with the Shadowfell one, a Shadow power sourcebook (with pre-E Assassin included with new builds) that isn't a complete joke, Arcane, Divine (with Runepriest included), Primal (with Seeker included), and Psionic Power 2 books (all with full AEDU pre-E builds), and a DMG 3 to help out with epic tier as another person posted. For me that would 'complete' 4e. Thing is, outside of the Feywild box set, I doubt we'll see any of that ever hitting the shelves.   
To those who are about to read this - keep in mind this is only the opinion of an admitted completionist. To compete 4e in my mind they still need a Feywild box set to match with the Shadowfell one, a Shadow power sourcebook (with pre-E Assassin included with new builds) that isn't a complete joke, Arcane, Divine (with Runepriest included), Primal (with Seeker included), and Psionic Power 2 books (all with full AEDU pre-E builds), and a DMG 3 to help out with epic tier as another person posted. For me that would 'complete' 4e. Thing is, outside of the Feywild box set, I doubt we'll see any of that ever hitting the shelves.   


You missed the Elemental Chaos and Astral Plane box sets. 

Also, what if they ever printed Martial Power 3? Would the edition then require a complete "3" series to finally be finished? 

WotC better be careful! 


I hear there's another pretty popular game that utilizes this model (hint: it rhymes with Cult Love Starcraft).



Actually that popular game is constantly  cranking out new stuff to keep the customers subscribing




True, but look at what that new stuff is... 95% of it is new zones, quests, dungeons, raids and item sets. It's only about once per year that they release new character material and even then it's usually only 1 or 2 new races and one new class. The vast majority of people I know who play WoW say they don't even want new classes or races, they only want new content to explore. I think this is what any single edition of D&D needs to do to stay alive. Quit bloating player options and get back to producing high quality settings and adventures and provide players and DM's the best tools available to make those adventures happen.

I can't see any way for this model to make a lot of money other than using a subscription based service.

Well, it also points out what D&D has in spades that a game like WoW can never match. There is INFINITE material that can be added to D&D forever in the form of adventures and settings, etc.

The ironic part of all this is that 4e in general is a lot more flexible system in terms of writing setting and adventure material than previous editions because there are all sorts of plotlines and setting conceits that 4e can support that are beastly hard in a game with overwhelming plot power given to just casters. At least I've found that to be the case for my games. Where it gets ironic is that WotC made this huge new opening for stuff and then walked away from the whole market for adventures and settings.

Honestly I have a hard time even understanding how there anyone can even think for a second of 4e as in any way tapped out. There are plenty enough mechanics, but it is like you finished building your Ferrarri and its sitting at the end of the driveway all ready to go and you say "Eh, well, that's all there is to that, nothing more to do with this baby..."
That is not dead which may eternal lie
I would begin saving my money for 5e books...since I'm broke.
To those who are about to read this - keep in mind this is only the opinion of an admitted completionist. To compete 4e in my mind they still need a Feywild box set to match with the Shadowfell one, a Shadow power sourcebook (with pre-E Assassin included with new builds) that isn't a complete joke, Arcane, Divine (with Runepriest included), Primal (with Seeker included), and Psionic Power 2 books (all with full AEDU pre-E builds), and a DMG 3 to help out with epic tier as another person posted. For me that would 'complete' 4e. Thing is, outside of the Feywild box set, I doubt we'll see any of that ever hitting the shelves.   


You missed the Elemental Chaos and Astral Plane box sets. 

Also, what if they ever printed Martial Power 3? Would the edition then require a complete "3" series to finally be finished? 

WotC better be careful! 



They should finish the 2 series and be done with it imho. As for the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos those were already covered in two very good books. The Shadowfell and the Feywild (if they do one) box sets are just the same thing only in boxed form.  
I definitely don't feel like anything is "missing" from 4E somehow keeping it from being complete. However, were I to get my way, I'd really like an Epic Tier DMG3. I'd like a reprint of PHB1 with all updates. I'd like a repring of MM1 and MM2 with all updated monster math (perhaps in a single giant book like Tome of Horrors complete) I'd also like a Dragon Lance book for 4E and maybe even a Planescape book. Then they could move on to 5E and I'd be totally on board.

With regard for them removing the digital tools for 4E, I too doubt they'd do it, but honestly I wouldn't really care. I can play the game fine without them and if 5E was not to my liking would gladly do so. But, more likely than not, I'll jump right onto the 5E bandwagon as soon as it comes out. Atleast to give it a try. I like to play the current edition simply because it's what's out there but I still play older editions regularly and plan to continue to do so. 4E will be no different.
The ironic part of all this is that 4e in general is a lot more flexible system in terms of writing setting and adventure material than previous editions because there are all sorts of plotlines and setting conceits that 4e can support that are beastly hard in a game with overwhelming plot power given to just casters. At least I've found that to be the case for my games. Where it gets ironic is that WotC made this huge new opening for stuff and then walked away from the whole market for adventures and settings.

Honestly I have a hard time even understanding how there anyone can even think for a second of 4e as in any way tapped out. There are plenty enough mechanics, but it is like you finished building your Ferrarri and its sitting at the end of the driveway all ready to go and you say "Eh, well, that's all there is to that, nothing more to do with this baby..."

My biggest issue with 4e at this point is new players. How do I introduce it to them? Do I give them the PHB and explain it's outdated? Do I give them the Essentials books but explain most older classes have a unified system that's more complicated? Or do I just give them DDI and tell them to figure it out from there?

I agree that 4e really only needs a little crunch, and that just because it feels good to get new mechanical stuff along with fluff. But to be frank, 4e's openness actually makes it so fluff need not be made, because it encourages you to make stuff up. It's a great system for roleplaying over rollplaying, at least out fo combat. Overall it feels like a nealry perfect system overall, but not much is needed. I would care if they made a 5th edition, but only out of curiosity, not because I'd bemoan 4e support dwindling. We don't need any more support, even if we want more.

And yes I understand many things have been ignored, but that always happens. Sometimes we just have to live with the Seeker, Ossassin, Binder and Vampire being awful. It happens--that's what reflavouring is for, and 4e allows that more than any system before it. Just play a similar class and reflavour! Same for race, too, honestly.
My biggest issue with 4e at this point is new players. How do I introduce it to them? Do I give them the PHB and explain it's outdated? Do I give them the Essentials books but explain most older classes have a unified system that's more complicated? Or do I just give them DDI and tell them to figure it out from there?



I would never have given a totally new player the Players' Handbook in any edition. I always just pregenerated a handful of simple iconic characters and asked them which they prefered. Then I taught how to play that. When they are hooked, they are usually willing to drink from the fire hose. When they are only casually interested, it is a waste of time to show them a book, no matter how slim or simple.

So in my case, Fourth Edition will be just as easy to teach to new players in 20 years as it is now. Particularly since everything can be stored on a flash drive if necessary.
Member of Grognards for 4th Edition
Short answer: Spelljammer Campaign Boxed Set
Long answer: Good and informative campaign guides for EVERY setting. FR has one book... no wait.. two with Neverwinter ! Dark Sun? Don't get me started...

4th Realms went there with the spellplague and wrecked a good portion of the continent - of course I CAN invent everything myself - but would I like to see more guides? yes
- Feywild DM set like the Shadowfell set.

- Lots more published adventures, spanning several levels, and adventures in campaign settings such as FR, and using in-print dungeon tiles and with poster maps.

The amount of published adventures for 4e is quite poor, to be frank. FR has 1 published adventure. (I'm not counting the ones in dungeon magazine.)
I now know this won't happen, but I was peeved that a Martial Power 2 came out, when the Arcane, Divine, Primal, and Psionic Power 2 books were never made.  What on earth was the rationale for that? I find Martial to be the most boring, depth-less power source to play.  (So you have weapons and training and can sling them around.)  It's really not fair that those classes get that many options, builds, power choices, feats, etc. while the rest of the classes don't.  

So I would say that, while I know it won't happen, it should be a VERY big priority to happen in future editions of D&D.
I now know this won't happen, but I was peeved that a Martial Power 2 came out, when the Arcane, Divine, Primal, and Psionic Power 2 books were never made.  What on earth was the rationale for that? I find Martial to be the most boring, depth-less power source to play.  (So you have weapons and training and can sling them around.)  It's really not fair that those classes get that many options, builds, power choices, feats, etc. while the rest of the classes don't.  

So I would say that, while I know it won't happen, it should be a VERY big priority to happen in future editions of D&D.


Honestly, if it wasn't for Martial practices, I'd agree with you.
Ahh, so THIS is where I can add a sig. Remember: Killing an ancient God inside of a pyramid IS a Special Occasion, and thus, ladies should be dipping into their Special Occasions underwear drawer.
Outside of the stuff we already know is coming about the ONLY things I think 4E needs for me to consider it complete would be an Epic Tier Monster Manual (most all of the existing monsters in the upper half of epic are elites/solos with virtually no standards or minions to speak of) and MAYBE a DMG3 focused on epic tier play.

Beyond that I think we've got more than enough material available for my 4E gaming groups to spend the rest of our lives playing without actually running out of new combinations... heck, out of all the 4E campaigns I've been in since it came out, I know we've used less than half the classes, maybe a third of the races, and barely 10% of the available monsters and magic items. And that doesn't even count the differences due to setting (the game that's reached paragon tier has seen our characters become lords and ladies of own respective realms, with court intrigues playing as big a role as traditional dungeon crawls while the low level campaign I'm in began with the characters as refugees trying to outrun an advancing hostile army and looks to be morphing into one where we are going to be guerrilla fighters playing Robin Hood against the mostly human enemy forces).
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