B/R Deck for Multiplayer?

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Hi everyone,


So I've been working on idea's for a new deck... and I'd like to try a discard deck in black/red (my two fave mono-deck colours) and I'm torn between a few different idea's.
I'm unsure whether to try and run a creature focused deck (specter's, shockers etc.) with lots of removal and enchantments, or whether to run minimal efficient creatures and lots of spells to screw as many opponents as possible.  Help! 

I really like the idea of a B/R Discard deck, using Bloodchief Ascension, Liliana's Caress and Painful Quandary with some discard spells in there, like Unnerve and Syphon Mind and some Geth's Grimoire to give me some card advantage, and as something to help activate the Ascension's/provide some protection, I was thinking of some Volcanic Fallout's and Blightning in there.
  I do have a 4-of Dark Ritual, so I could realistically achieve a turn three Painful Quandary.  ;D 

The more I think about it, the best one of the lot for a quick group kill would be Burning Inquiry.
Only it could kill my hand also, unless I pack my hand full of recurring cards, so I've been looking at cards like Raven's Crime and Rekindled Flame. I know Rekindled flame is expensive for a burn, but being able to toss it, knowing it'll come back?!?!  Sounds enticing!

As far as creatures go, I like the look of Typhoid Rats, Augur of Skulls, Rotting Rats, Lavaborn Muse, Sangromancer and Abyssal Specter.
The latter three I like because they could survive a Volcanic Fallout.....but is this a flawed strategy?, even if I get to gain life through the Sangromancer and the Ascension? 

I'm not sure what number's of each card I should be running to get the best draw/outcome.  Could you all please give me a clue?

Cheers!

    


     
I'm a big fan of the creaturelight/less decks when it comes to discard. It lets you field cards like Ensnaring Bridge and Glacial Chasm which make you all but immortal while you quickly drain everyone to 0.

One thing that I'll tell you right now is that Red doesn't pull its weight in the deck. There's basically no reason to run it. Every Red card that you've listed is either too slow, weak, vulnerable, or conditional to really be of any use. I would keep the deck mono-Black. It's just plain better.

My deck would probably look something like:

Lands (26)
21x Swamp
4x Howltooth Hollow 
1x Glacial Chasm

Spells (34)
4x Smallpox
4x Innocent Blood
4x Necrogen Mists
2x Gibbering Descent
4x Unnerve
2x Delirium Skeins
4x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Noetic Scales
4x Wheel of Torture
4x Beseech the Queen

I'm thinking something like this. The idea here is to lock people at 0 cards so that Noetic Scales and Ensnaring Bridge lock creatures out of the game. We accomplish this by pairing solid mass discard (Unnerve + Delirium Skeins) with solid constant discard (Necrogen Mists + Gibbering Descent). From there we slowly with the game via Wheel of Torture + Gibbering Descent. Once we're Hellbent, Gibbering Descent removes Glacial Chasm's upkeep cost, so we become immune to damage. Smallpox is there because it acts as our early game defense against creatures, but also really slows everyone down and forces discards. Beseech the Queen is a solid tutor that will bring some much needed consistency to the deck. Innocent Blood is mostly there to shore up our early game, since that's when we're the most vulnerable. It's cheap and it gets the job done. We want these cheap spells in here so that when we do throw out a Bridge + Mists/Skeins we basically end the game on the spot. We want to stay alive and empty our hand, so Innocent Blood does quite a bit of work in that respect.

If nothing else, you need to keep in mind that multiplayer is all about global effects and defense. Cards like Blightning and Augur of Skulls are no good because they only affect one opponent. Specters such as Abyssal Specter are bad for similar reasons. Liliana's Spcter and Scythe Specter aren't bad though, but again, it's because they have global effects. I would avoid anything that doesn't affect each opponent, because it's probably not going to be very useful otherwise. You're going to have to work overtime when it comes to protecting yourself. Discard decks draw hate, so you really can't go in there without a solid gameplan to keep yourself alive. A few small creatures will not protect you, people can still easily gang up on you and take you out. My deck has 8 early game mass removal spells (Smallpox + Innocent Blood) and 6 cards that outright prevent creature beats (Ensnaring Bridge + Noetic Scales) for a reason. Play a lot of defense or die. What this also means is that your deckspace is limited. Every card has to count. If something is too weak or slow then it really can't stay.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Tich is the man when it comes to black and discard.  The only thing that I might change is Gibbering Descent to Bloodchief Ascension.  Just because you can get the bloodchief out early before you start making everyone discard.  I'm sure if i am wrong on this asumption Tich will let us know.

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Single Player Decks I'm currently playing

Assault of the Minotaurs

Lands
19 Mountain
4 Khalni Garden
1 Thawing Glaciers

 

Artifacts
4 Didgeridoo
4 Gorgon Flail
1 Konda's Banner
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul

 

Spells
4 Assault Strobe

 

Creatures
4 Adaptive Automaton
4 Anaba Ancestor
4 Minotaur Aggressor
4 Talruum Minotaur
4 Gorehorn Minotaurs
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Tahngarth, Talruum Hero

Rapid infenction

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18 Forest
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
4 Glistener Elf
4 Necropede
4 Ichorclaw Myr

 

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4 Rancor
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Griant Growth
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Apostle's Blessing

Use your Illusion

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18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

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4 Krovikan Mist
3 Phantom Warrior
3 Phantasmal Dragon
4 Lord of the Unreal
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Adaptive Automaton
3 Illusory Angel

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2 Swiftfoot Boots

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3 Sleep
4 Ponder
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Goblin deck

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16 Mountain

4 Goblin Burrows

 

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4 Goblin Grenade
4 Goblin War Strike
2 Brightstone Ritual
2 Quest for the Goblin Lord

 

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4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Balloon Brigade
3 Goblin Guide
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin King
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Look out the Land is Falling

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4 Evoling Wilds
4 Terramorphic Expanse
7 Plains
9 Forest

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3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Cultivate
3 Groundswell

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4 Oblivion Ring

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2 Adventuring Gear

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4 Steppe Lynx
4 Ruin Ghost
2 Baloth Woodcrasher
2 Rampaging Baloths
4 Emeria Angel
4 Vinelasher Kudzu

Ula's Deep Sea Drezins

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18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

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4 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Kraken Hatchling
3 Sage of Epityr
4 Stormtide Leviathan
2 Grozoth
3 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Cursecatcher


Enchantment
4 Quest for Ula's Temple

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4 Preordain
4 Dizzy Spell
4 Clockspinning

Green Beatdown

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18 Forest
4 Treetop Village


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4 Vines of Vastwood
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2 Might of Oaks

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Elemental Assault

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4 Lightning bolt
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4 Ball Lightning
4 Hell's Thunder
4 Blistering Firecat
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
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Death from the Sky

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4 Glacial Fortress
4 Azorius Chancery
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5 Plains
5 Island

 

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4 Squadron Hawk
4 Soulcatcher
4 Judge's Familar
3 Augury Owl
3 Cloudreach Cavalry
3 Pride of Clouds
2 Emeria Angel
2 Aven Mimeomancer
1 God of Awe

 

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4 Oblivion Ring
2 Battle Screech
2 Airborne Raid

Stompy

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3 Garruk's Companion
3 Rogue Elephant
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
3 Pouncing Jaguar
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Shinen of Life's Roar

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3 Groundswell
4 Rancor
3 Gather Courage
3 Briar Shield
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Fog

Multi-Player Decks I'm currently Playing

Discard

Lands
22 Swamp

 

Spells
4 Innocent Blood
4 Mutilate
4 Sign in Blood

2 Syphon Mind
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Enchantments
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Bottomless Pit
4 Shrieking Affliction

Artifacts
4 Wheel of Torture
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Bottled Cloister

Everyone Burns

18 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Glacial Chasm
1 Shivan Gorge

Creatures
4 Aether Membrane

Artifacts
3 Sun Droplet

Enchantments
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Spells
4 Sizzle
4 Flame Rift
4 Browbeat
4 Flamebreak
4 Acidic Soil
3 Breaking Point
3 Breath of Darigaaz

Brewing a Storm

Lands
2 Glacial Chasm
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Greypelt Refuge
4 Brushland
4 Forest
5 Plains

Spells
3 Wrath of God
2 Hurricane


Enchantment
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Titania's Song
2 Aura of Silence
2 Kismet
1 Fastbond

 

Artifacts
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Storm Cauldron
4 Ankh of Mishra
2 Sun Droplet
1 Venser's Journal
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4 Darksteel Ingot

Beast Gone Wild

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3 Kessig Wolf Run
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1 Yavimaya Hollow
8 Forest

 

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4 Krosan Warchief
4 Wirewood Savage
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3 Rampaging Baloths
2 Spearbreaker Behemoth
2 Mold Shambler
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1 Craterhoof Behemoth
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1 Silklash Spider
1 Copperhoof Vorrac
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4 Wild Growth
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1 Spidersilk Armor

 

Planeswalker
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Elven Rythym Nation

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14 Forest
2 Wirewood Lodge
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Pendelhaven

 

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3 Joraga Warcaller
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Priest of Titania
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Imperious Perfect

 

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1 Asceticism
2 Biorhythm
2 Hurricane
2 Eldrazi Monument

I want to drink your blood

Lands
18 Swamp
4 Leechridden Swamp
2 Cabal Coffers

 

Creatures
4 Pulse Tracker
3 Blood Artist
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Malakir Bloodwitch
3 Falkenrath Noble
2 Bloodline Keeper

 

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3 Underworld Connections
1 No Mercy
1 Phyrexian Reclamation

 

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4 Syphon Soul
4 Blood Tithe
3 Exsanguinate

Draw equals Pain

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1 Tolarian Academy
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Deserted Temple
2 Reliquary Tower
3 Island
2 Mountain

 

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4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
2 Jace's Archivist
2 Kami of the Crescent Moon
4 Psychosis Crawler

 

Artifacts
4 Howling Mine
4 Iron Maiden
4 Ebony Owl Netsuke
1 Ivory Tower

 

Spells
4 Winds of Change
4 Molten Psyche
2 Copy Artifact
2 Sunder
2 Cyclonic Rift

Rainbow Sliver

Lands
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Breeding Pool

 

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4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Gemhide Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Homing Sliver
2 Heart Sliver
2 Acidic Sliver
1 Sliver Overlord
1 Essence Sliver
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Brood Sliver
1 Shifting Sliver
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3 Distant Melody
1 Creeping Renaissance

 

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2 Door of Destinies

soldier

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2 Emeria, Sky Ruin

 

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4 Veteran Swordsmith
4 Daru Warchief
3 Field Marshal
3 Knight-Captain of Eos
3 Captain of the Watch
3 Catapult Master
2 Loxodon Gatekeeper
2 Angel of Glory's Rise
2 Stormfront Riders
1 Darien, King of Kjeldor
1 Odric, Master Tactician

 

Spells
4 Skullclamp
2 Eldrazi Monument
1 Mobilization

 

Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Life Test

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4 Kabira Crossroads
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Miren, the Moaing Well

 

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4 Wall of Reverence
2 Divinity of Pride
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Kami of False Hope

 

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2 Test of Endurance
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Beacon of Immortality
2 Fracturing Gust
3 Congregate
2 Well of Lost Dreams
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Chastise
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Debtors' Knell

 

Planeswalker
1 Ajani Goldmane

 

Meh, there's no one perfect deck, so there's no right or wrong way to go about building this one. That being said, I'm not that big of a fan of adding Ascension to my deck. Bloodchief Ascension is, in many ways, a bad Megrim. You can throw one out early, sure, but that doesn't actually do anything since it needs time and energy to activate. What these decks tend to lack are good, fast ways to get it up and running.

Also, as with Megrim, the card is clunky when you eventually lock people at 0 cards. It's much harder to get things binned at that point. You're basically relying on removal. That's not horrible, but it's not a consistent 3 damage like Wheel of Torture is or anything.

Gibbering Descent also does a lot for this deck. First of all, it's a constant discard engine that also acts as a win condition. No, 1 damage per turn isn't a lot, but it isn't nothing either. That being said, removing Descent removes 2 of the constant discard engines in this deck, which leaves you with only the 4 Mists. If you don't draw one/it gets destroyed, that can leave you in a fairly hopeless situation at times. This is a deck that strives for consistency, and in order to get that we need redundancy. I don't like cutting constant discard outlets when the deck only has 6 and it really needs to keep one in play at all times.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I basically assign 0 value to the whole Descent + Chasm combo since it's not a very consistent or reliable part of the deck's overall strategy. That's not a factor at all when it comes to taking Descent's deck slots into consideration. 

Finally, going back to what I said earlier, I'm just not convinced that the card is strong enough in this style of deck (the style of deck that I built that is). It's not a guaranteed win condition like Wheel of Torture is, it doesn't help lock people at 0 cards, it doesn't protect you, it can't easily be activated by my own efforts, etc. It's very clunky and situational. It's a fine card, but it doesn't bring much to my particular deck.

All this to say that I would personally not cut Descents in favor of something like B.Ascension. So, take that for whatever it's worth. That being said, I'm not opposed to cutting Descents in generals (and eve nthe Chasm too at that point), as long as it was to replace them with something like Bottomless Pit. The deck does want a fair number of constant dicard outlets, much moreso than it wants mass discard cards such as Unnerve and Delirium Skeins. You could easily build this deck - Descents, Chasm, Skeins and maybe shave some of the removal and add some Bottomless Pits and then some other cheap, useful spells. Not opposed to that at all. You reall do want quite a few constant discard engines though. They're fairly vital to this deck's success.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
I'm not gonna lie, Tich, you listed a good portion of my mono-:B: madness deck.

Mostly:
Gibbering descent
glacial chasm
necrogen mists

And since I might as well list a few more notables...

Quest for the nihil stone
Contamination
Chain of smog (mainly meta-dependant, my group is vengeful, making this card pretty fun!)

And of course you could just add some madness cards. Originally, the deck was B/R (mainly for reckless wurm) but I kind of joined the dark side, everything else just seemed useless.
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Are you making a casual mill deck? Please read.
Control is the key of a mill deck. You should free up your mana as much as possible so that you can respond to whatever your opponent is doing. Having some way to remove threats, both real and percieved, is necessary to survival. Real threats are those that are already on the field, and are something a simple unsummon or doom blade can remove. Percieved threats are those that aren't on the field, something a simple duress or counterspell can deal with. Controlling the board will allow your mill deck to continuously perform, if you use permanent style mill, that is. One-Shot Mill spells are something you should avoid. You can toss tome scours at your opponent until your hand runs out, but that isn't going to be enough to mill them to death. With 1-shot mill spells, like tome scour, you have to treat them like burn spells. Therefore, the only "good" 1-shot mill spells are sanity grinding (in the right deck) and mind funeral. Try to find more permanent styles of milling, like memory erosion, hedron crab, and curse of the bloody tome, so that you don't have to waste your mana each turn doing something that those permanents can do with a single mana/turn investment. Keeping your mana open allows you to respond with control elements. ​Traumatize Rant​. Traumatize is a terrible card for a multitude of reasons. First, it costs 5 to cast, which is a large investment for a mill deck. Milling half a library sounds neat, but if you do the math, it really isn't that much. An average 60 card deck starts with drawing 7 cards. Then, barring any draw spells on their end, or ramp on yours, 5 turns will go by, where they draw 5 more cards, leaving 48 in the deck. Unless they had a deck with more than 60 cards, or you ramped it out, the most you'll ever mill with a single Traumatize on turn 5 is 24 cards. That's not too shabby, but hang on, there's more! If they drew any additional cards or if they were milled before turn 5, that number will be much lower. In addition, any more Traumatize's you draw will only mill less and less as the game goes on...which is the point of a mill deck. My whole point on Traumatize is the it is NOT worth the 5 mana investment, not even with haunting echoes. You can mill more than 24 before turn 5...which you can then cast the echoes. If you look at a mill deck like a burn deck, you'll notice that it takes longer to win with mill than with burn. For example, lightning bolt costs 1 and does 3 out of the 20 damage needed to win (barring any lifegain or damage prevention). For mill, that same investment of 1 would have to mill 9 cards out of an average 60 card deck to be the equivilent of lightning bolt. The problem is that there is no mill card that can do that...except hedron crab, over a period of time. The initial investment of 1 will pay off in 3 more land drops to make the crab equal to a bolt. However, the crab nets you more mill beyond those 3 land drops, making it better as the game draws on. Other cards, like curse of the bloody tome, are excellent ways of milling an opponent because the initial investment of is all you have to pay in order to put your opponent on a clock. All you have to do is stay alive, which is the true goal of a mill strategy. There are other ideas for mill decks that are specific to certain types of strategies. Combo mill decks can mill an entire player's library out from under them. Secondary mill strategies are usually tied to another strategy, like drowner of secrets in a merfolk deck, or halimar excavator in an ally deck. Milling can be done in certain decks that are able to ramp out enough mana to make use of the higher costing mill spells, like using 16 post to pay for X on sands of delirium or for ambassador laquatus. Multiplayer mill decks are even tougher to build, but can be done. Being a slower environment, it is easier to ramp in multiplayer, allowing for big X spells, like mind grind, to be useful. Consuming aberration is another star player. The more straightforward strategy is to use mesmeric orb and dreamborn muse while being the only deck at the table that can deal with it. There are always new strategies coming out with each set, so check gatherer for any new mill cards that you find to be the most fun for you! Now you can say that you haven't fallen into the trap that most new players fall into when they build their first mill deck!
Thanks for the replies!

  Whoa.   Just whoa.  Those cards are evil - Tich that deck of yours would be horribly frustrating to play against.  Glorious!
Your deck there Tich, is it more focused on a large playing group? 
I noticed you're not running Dark Ritual or Cabal Coffers like most MBC I've seen.. why?  
And also, you're not running Quest for the Nihil Stone or Painful Quandary.  I would have thought it would be a perfect fit for this deck, as you're not letting them get a card in hand.
And regarding Megrim-type cards, I've seen cards like Temple Bell used by some people - is that worth using to get a card after gibbering/mist has done their thing, so you can then make your opponent discard something? 
 
My group is fairly small - 4 players most the time, and most of us play aggro strategies, ways to cheat swarms of tokens or reanimate some crazy beater.   None of us play big money cards, and we have only a few planeswalkers between us - pretty casual stuff.

Token swarms, weenie aggro and Bloodchief Ascension were the main reason I was looking at going red so I could sweep the field with Volcanic Fallout early to get rid of those lords and utility-creatures, that and Crosis, the Purger!    
Reanimation is my main enemy with discard I'm guessing?......Gruesome Encore worth a few slots?
 
I understand the Necrogen Mists mechanic - but I'm not too sure of Gibbering Descent.  So when one of these is in play, that player drops a card, loses one life, and if their hand is empty, they can't untap all their critters and lands?  Is that how it works? 

To be honest, my initial idea seems pretty different from you Tich - your deck is BRUTAL! - I was thinking of using cards like Geth's Grimoire to get cards in hand and to keep card advantage.  With lots of cards in hand, I'd have more chance of getting what I need, and more lands to feed the Raven's Crime.  I know this tactic may be a little slow (i have 4x Dark Ritual), but when my playing group is only 4 players, is it worth persuing?
To opponents, Gibbering Descent  is just plain old discard and life loss. It's only you who skips your upkeep, which means as long as you keep your hand empty you get to dodge things like Necrogen Mists, Gibbering Descent itself and, as Tich pointed out, paying upkeep on Glacial Chasm. Of course it'll be hard to keep your own hand empty with Geth's Grimoire refilling it, unless you have some kind of free discard outlet.

Your deck there Tich, is it more focused on a large playing group?



To a fault. When I build a multiplayer deck, I build it to beat 50 opponents. I don't like leaving anything to chance. Everything in my deck will forever and always be a global effect for that reason.
 
I noticed you're not running Dark Ritual or Cabal Coffers like most MBC I've seen.. why?



Dark Ritual doesn't usually do enough for the deck. We're not powering out a combo here, we're going for a slow, grindy win. A bit of speed here and there doesn't actually make us win noticeably faster. Cabal Coffers was omitted for various reasons. First of all, it's $8.00 a copy. Now, I bought 4 back when Torment was first released, and I couldn't be happier about it. Still, it's a very narrow card since it's only good in MBC decks, and so a lot of people won't want to shell out for them (which is completely reasonable). Furthermore, the card doesn't actually work all that well unless you pair it with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, which is like a $20.00 card. Again, it has a very narrow use. Finally, and most importantly, it doesn't actually bring anything to this deck. Keep in mind that its cards basically top out at 4 mana (Gibbering Descent is very often discarded and Madnessed out via Necrogen Mists), and it probably isn't going to be playing multiple spells per turn. It doesn't have any X spells like Exsanguinate either. Also, drawing 3 Swamps is fine, but drawing 2x Coffers and 1x Swamp will straight up lose you the game at times. At the end of the day Coffers can screw you out of the game, we have no way to actually abuse them, and they cost a lot of money. Not ideal.
 
And also, you're not running Quest for the Nihil Stone or Painful Quandary.  I would have thought it would be a perfect fit for this deck, as you're not letting them get a card in hand.
And regarding Megrim-type cards, I've seen cards like Temple Bell used by some people - is that worth using to get a card after gibbering/mist has done their thing, so you can then make your opponent discard something?



Quest for the Nihil Stone is fine, and you can play it if you want. Like I said, there's no perfect deck, so feel free to change it to suit your fancy. I don't like it as much as I like Wheel of Torture since WoT has 0 setup time, whereas the Quest is only truly amazing in you manage to play it in the first few turns. If you topdeck it lategame then it doesn't always do a whole heck of a lot. Painful Quandary is fine but it's slow. Again, you can use it if you really want to, just keep in mind that it doesn't always do what you want it to. It does not force discards. People can sit there and do nothing until they draw into Naturalize or whatever. Cards like Mists and Descent force discards every turn, and Descent even forces lifeloss every turn. It is always doing something, whereas Quandary can sometimes do nothing. As far as Megrim goes, this stems back to what I said about "cards shouldn't be used if they're too narrow" (in my opinion anyways). Temple Bell is a very narrow card that goes against what we're trying to do until we've already won (for all intents and purposes). If you wanted to abuse Megrim + Liliana's Caress, you'd be much better off using Windfall, Memory Jar, Magus of the Jar, Urza's Guilt, etc. The deck should be based around making people draw then discard cards. It's just not a good card in dedicated discard decks as far as I'm concerned.
 
My group is fairly small - 4 players most the time, and most of us play aggro strategies, ways to cheat swarms of tokens or reanimate some crazy beater.   None of us play big money cards, and we have only a few planeswalkers between us - pretty casual stuff.



Seems like the perfect deck to showcase Ensnaring Bridge + Noetic Scales backed up by  the insane early game suite of Innocent Blood + Smallpox to kill off any big reanimated targets.

Token swarms, weenie aggro and Bloodchief Ascension were the main reason I was looking at going red so I could sweep the field with Volcanic Fallout early to get rid of those lords and utility-creatures, that and Crosis, the Purger!



Volcanic Fallout is a double Red card which makes it awkward to play on turn 3. Now, compare that to Massacre, which is often a free board wipe. No, it doesn't ping players for 2, but it also doesn't eat your turn and you'll never find yourself without the right mana to cast it.

Reanimation is my main enemy with discard I'm guessing?......Gruesome Encore worth a few slots?



Meh, reanimation isn't very scary. There's a reason why we have 8 sacrifice effects at 1-2 mana and then Neotic Scales + Ensnaring Bridge. No creatures really scare you. Gruesome Encore seems horrible though. Animate Dead, for example, costs less mana and lets you keep the creature. Necromancy seems like it's almost strictly better too. Still, reanimation works very poorly in my deck since it just hates on creatures. Like, don't forget that Bridge + Scales + I.Blood + S.Pox affects you too. My deck is creatureless for a very good reason.

Now, if this about handling revival targets in general, you could do much better. Planar Void and Leyline of the Void are very strong multiplayer cards in general, and are especially strong in Discard decks. I have no qualms fielding them when people bust out their graveyard based strategies. Furthermore, a cool land to consider is Bojuka Bog. It ETBT, which isn't ideal (you might have to cut the Hollows), but it's pretty sexy when it comes to hating on graveyard-based play. It takes up 0 spell slots but pretty does the same thing that you want Gruesome Encore to do (minus your trivial free attack). That's easily a much stronger consideration.
 
I understand the Necrogen Mists mechanic - but I'm not too sure of Gibbering Descent.  So when one of these is in play, that player drops a card, loses one life, and if their hand is empty, they can't untap all their critters and lands?  Is that how it works?



No. For your opponents, this card simply forces them to discard a card and lose a life every turn on their upkeep. Period. For you, it' slightly more complicated. Remember, the 3 initial phases of a player's turn (in order) are: untap, upkeep, draw. So, at the start of your turn you will always untap your permanents as per normal, but if you have 0 cards in hand then you will skip your upkeep step. Since that's the step where Gibbering Descent forces you to discard a card and lose a life, you won't wind up doing either. You then get to draw your card, which is something that you'll want to play right away in order to keep yourself Hellbent (this deck's mana curve is intentionally kept low).

To be honest, my initial idea seems pretty different from you Tich - your deck is BRUTAL! - I was thinking of using cards like Geth's Grimoire to get cards in hand and to keep card advantage.  With lots of cards in hand, I'd have more chance of getting what I need, and more lands to feed the Raven's Crime.  I know this tactic may be a little slow (i have 4x Dark Ritual), but when my playing group is only 4 players, is it worth persuing?



You had me at Geth's Grimoire but lost me at Raven's Crime and Dark Ritual. Geth's Grimoire is fine, but you really have to build around it. Like, pair it with Words of Waste or something that will forever and always lock people at 0 cards while drawing you a ton of them. From there you can Mutilate or whatever every turn to keep the field clear, and build up to massive Exsanguinates and Sickening Dreams to finish everyone off. Your overall strategy isn't worth pursuing (in my mind) because it isn't a true multiplayer strategy. Again, I may be biased because I will always treat multiplayer as though I'm playing against 100 people, but I still can't bring myself to say "yes, Raven's Crime is a good card" or anything. I personally wouldn't touch it with a 50 foot pole. Again, this is just my opinion, and you're absolutely  free to do whatever you want. I just take multiplayer very seriously, and I'm always trying to figure out the best ways to win. Raven's Crime is never going to lock all of your opponents at 0 cards. It's always going to need a lot of help if it wants to do anything. Something like Unnerve doesn't.

My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Wow!  Great reply!  Thanks for the time and effort Tich.
I really do see just how nasty your deck is, hate to be on the receiving end of it!
Can you forgive a noob question here?  Is it possible for your deck to win if someone uses Surgical Extraction etc. on your Wheel of Torture or Ensnaring Bridge?
One of the fella's I play with has some Back to Nature - how do you get around enchantment hate or blue counter?
  What are your thoughts of Dash Hopes as a safety?   
 
Despite how awesome your deck looks, I'd like to try a different tack cos I'm a bonehead.
.....although I will definitely borrow some pointers ;D

I hear what you're saying re: Raven's Crime... I'll drop it, and try to build a deck around the strengths of Geth's Grimiore.

Thanks for suggesting Words of Waste
Could you please explain exactly how it works?

So if I pay one, and play a Burning Inquiry for example, we all draw three.
Now, does that mean that when Words of Waste triggers immediately after the draw, all opposition discard 1 card (not 3, is that right?) and then the second part of the Inquiry fires and players random discard 3. So net gain is everyone discards 1, apart from me? 
And with Geth I get to draw again.....  

    I'm liking Sign in Blood here with this, even though it costs me 2 life, it means global discard x2 for only BB looks attractive.
Unnerve & Syphon Mind are auto inclusions.
I'm guessing Necrogen Mists will work pretty well with the grimoire, as I'll get to draw anytime they don't play what they have.
 
Would Words of Waste work with Temple Bell, in that when everyone draws, the Waste triggers, making everyone then discard, and then I draw again c/o Grimoire?  Is that right?

With all these interactions with Words of Waste, I'm liking Quest for the Nihil Stone a lot.

Burning Inquiry combined with a Liliana's Caress wouldn't be too shabby with Words of Waste I'm guessin.
I really like the idea of keeping the opposition chumps pinned to 0 cards in hand. 
To be honest I'm liking the idea of Bloodchief Ascension more than a Megrim type card, as it helps me to punish the opposition more than Liliana's Caress can....and gain life at the same time.

   BUT.....
Defence in your deck is your combo with Ensnaring Bridge, which Geth's Grimoire kills straight up.
So I'm gonna need some kill power.
I like Innocent Blood combined with a sweeper to get rid of weenies. 
The Grimoire should help draw some, but should I consider putting in some Rotting Rats and Liliana's Specter for chump blocking and once they've done their part use my sweepers or visa-versa?
I'm guessing I may be end up relying on other players attacking each other to activate my Bloodchief Ascension....  hmmm.
 
And with all the mass-sweep effects, what do you think of cards like Quest for the Gravelord and Syphon Flesh?


Cheers!   
             
 
 


You know, I've wondered about the merits of quietly running a playset of Demigod of Revenge in the background in the builds of these decks - you don't care about discarding them (at least not the first three), and if someone piffs the Bridge, or you somehow get up to a five-card hand, you have the chance to insta-gib somebody when you draw Demigod #4.
Is it optimal? Probably not. Is it fun? Heck yes!

Anyway, back from dreamland... I also run Null Brooch in these decks. Your hand is already empty most of the time, so the Brooch basically reads ", : Counter target solution your opponent thought they had for your lock". With a single Brooch on the table, your opponents are either ganging up on you to remove the Bridge / Wheel of Torture / Threat du jour, or they're waiting for someone to draw a creature-based solution like Viridian Shaman or Woodfall Primus. While you're stripping their hands each turn regardless.
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Wow!  Great reply!  Thanks for the time and effort Tich.
I really do see just how nasty your deck is, hate to be on the receiving end of it!
Can you forgive a noob question here?  Is it possible for your deck to win if someone uses Surgical Extraction etc. on your Wheel of Torture or Ensnaring Bridge?



Yes and yes. Bridge doesn't actually do anything to win you the game, but Gibbering Descent will slowly get there if you lose your Wheels.

One of the fella's I play with has some Back to Nature - how do you get around enchantment hate or blue counter?
  What are your thoughts of Dash Hopes as a safety?



This deck doesn't get around hate or counters. If people decide to counter your spells and destroy your perms then it doesn't what you play, you're going to lose. Dash Hopes is terrible because it will never stop spells that actually matter. It's not hard protection and it shouldn't ever be treated like it is. The only real cards for consideration here (in my mind) are Null Brooch and Yawgmoth's Will. Will is usually very solid in any Black deck, and would give you more of a reason to use Cabal Coffers. Null Brooch is a decent recurring Counterspell and pairs well with Ensnaring Bridge. Neither option is fantastic, but again, I don't play around counters/removal.
 
Thanks for suggesting Words of Waste
Could you please explain exactly how it works?



I'm far from a rules expert, so if you want help with specific interactions you're better off just asking questions on the rules Q&A forum. They'll be much more helpful than I could ever hope to be.

I'm liking Sign in Blood here with this, even though it costs me 2 life, it means global discard x2 for only BB looks attractive.



Be careful with that mindset. Sign in Blood doesn't inherently force discards. Yes, if you have WoW out it can, but the card doesn't read "pay 2 life, each opponent discards 2 cards." This stems back to what I was saying about Quest for the Nihil Stone and Bloodchief Ascension and whatnot. People like to glaze over the important aspects of the card (namely that they take time and effort to activate) and treat the card like it's always "working." That's simply never going to be the case. The play that you're talking about (WoW + SiB) is a 2 card combo that costs 4 mana and 2 life and makes each opponent discard 2 cards. That's strictly worse than Unnerve. Just be careful that you don't get too cute or fancy.
 
Would Words of Waste work with Temple Bell, in that when everyone draws, the Waste triggers, making everyone then discard, and then I draw again c/o Grimoire?  Is that right?



Again, I'd just ask the guys over at the rules Q&A forum.



I like Innocent Blood combined with a sweeper to get rid of weenies.



That seems like a waste. Why not just play with Mutilate or Massacre or something if weenies are your primary concern? Innocent Blood is good at killing small numbers of important creatures. It really doesn't do **** against weenies.
 
The Grimoire should help draw some, but should I consider putting in some Rotting Rats and Liliana's Specter for chump blocking and once they've done their part use my sweepers or visa-versa?



Meh, it depends. We're talking about some fairly miserable cards here. They have small effects and relatively high mana costs for what they do. Paying 3 mana to force ech opponeny to discard a card and chump a creature isn't exactly backbreaking. I don't like small effects in multiplayer, so I typically don't put these kinds of creatures in my decks. The only synergy that I'm really seeing is Noetic Scales + these kinds of creatures. Just keep bouncing them for their ETB effects. Now, that's much worse than say Necrogen Mists, but it's still something (as opposed to nothing).
 
And with all the mass-sweep effects, what do you think of cards like Quest for the Gravelord and Syphon Flesh?



Any Syphon spell is fine. It's not exactly fast, but it's not a bad way to stabilize. I can't say that I like the card in discard decks simply because of how slow it is, but maybe you'll need it since you're not going to Bridge/Scales it up. QftG is just bad. It's a big beater but that's not what this deck needs. That being said, I always Bridge/Scales it up in my discard decks, so creatures aren't a big concern for me.

My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Righto, seems I have some work to do.
Cheers for the pointers again Tich - you really know this stuff inside-out and backwards ;P

The more I go through the possibilities for a creatureless (or light) discard deck, seems the options are plenty, but the main fact remains.
Discard draws hate from your opponents, ALL of THEM!
So;
I can stay mono-black and use lots of sweepers, black-red with lots of burn or blue-black and include bounce.
After going through the possibilities here, I'm starting to think a BR-discard/burn strategy is the most likely to be vulnerable as I've got no way to deal with opposition enchantments and bouncing my enchantments.

Based on my budget, and that I want this deck to have a little swing so I can use it for multiplayer and 1-on-1, I'm considering two different deck idea's, one based on BR-discard-burn, the other based on UB-Discard-Bounce.

My idea for the BR deck is a bit different from my inital idea (cheers Tich);
Main engine comprising Quest for the Nihil Stone, Liliana's Caress, Unnerve, Geth's Grimoire, Words of Waste and lots of sweep/sac/discard to go with it. I still like Burning Inquiry and Painful Quandary.
 Necrogen Mists is a must for this tactic with the grimoire I think....  

The UB deck would consist of cards Liliana's Caress, Perplex, Sunken Hope, Warped DevotionDissipation Field.
Only thing holding me back from this idea is that whilst I can find plenty of cool 1-on-1 cards like Wistful Thinking and Careful Consideration, there are not many mass-bounce cards I've found besides Evacuation.    
UB is attracting me due to all the INSTANT SPEED DISCARD like Piracy Charm and cards like Recoil, Perplex[/c] and that whilst are situational - could definitely help me keep my pieces on the board. 

.....so I'm wondering - all you discard guru's who like Geth's Grimoire, which tactic would you pursue?

Here's the deciding factor for me; pretty much very Blue card that you've mentioned (you missed Urza's Guilt though) only targets a single opponent. While Recoil + Warped Devotion sounds cool on paper, in practice it doesn't actually do anything worthwhile. In terms of solid Blue bounce, there's really only Sunder and Upheaval other than Evacuation. The idea here is that you always float mana so that you can can recast your Caresses afterwards which is hopefully enough to kill. I really hate the single target bounce/discard since you're only going to 1-for-1 or 2-for-1 someone. That's not strong at all in multiplayer.

Another knock against the Blue/Black decks is that they're too reliant on drawing the right cards at the right times. Like, Geth's Grimoire isn't that good unless you have a great mass discard engine like WoWaste online. Warped Devotion does stone nothing unless you're constantly forcing bounces on players. A lof of the small cards that you mentioned, such as Piracy Charm, are just 1-for-1s unless you have cards online to support them. Try to remember that for every God draw that you can imagine, you're going to get stuck with 99 other mediocre ones. The game will never play out as smoothly as you want it to. That's why I often say that most decks aren't actually good enough to play around "X." Like, you mentioned that my Black deck can't play around heavy enchantment decks. You're 100% right. Still, I'm fine with that. I don't think that my deck is good enough to play around "counter" decks or tons of hate. I'm just going to do my thing and hope that it gets me there. If I lose, I lose. That's magic, you're never going to win every game. Still, I know that I will lose many more games if I take out my good cards and add cards that will help me play around enchantments. Yes, Boomerang (just a random example) will save me one in every 10 games, but in the other 9 it could very well lose me the game because it isn't that Necrogen Mists that I took out for it. You are always taking out good cards when you're adding cards that help you "play around" something after all.

Still, if you do like he idea of a Blue deck, consider something with more draw. Windfall, Memory Jar, Magus of the Jar and Urza's Guilt can all do stupid thingswith cards like Liliana's Caress and Bloodchief Ascension. That being said, most of them also draw into cards that you need. Warped Devotion, for example, just kinda sits there and prays that you draw the right cards to make it work. Windfall does what you want it to, but also draws you into more gas. If you don't have the cards that you need on hand, you can always play it to try and get there.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
CHeers again Tich, thanks a lot for your help.

Yeah that's what I thought RE: UB Discard/Bounce;
The mono-black approach (and red to a lesser degree) has more synergy with cards like Bloodchief Ascension, and a much more likely chance of being able to play against multiple opponents with cards like Innocent Blood, Burning Inquiry, Pyroclasm & Infest being available.  

I can definitely see your point about Warped Devotion.
I was playing a bounce/discard deck just last night and it really struggled once my hand started to run low.  I ran a few proxy's of Geth's Grimoire/Warped Devotion etc...  got owned all night to be honest. 
I wasn't running top-tier cards, just the basic bounce and discard like Unsummon, Boomerang, and creature based bounce but I was always playing catch up.  Even though I was only ever bouncing the threats to me, I never had any bounce left by the time Warped Devotion hit the table. My mates correctly predicted Evacuation coming and just left mana open to counter it.
Kinda my fault running Mana Leak I guess. 
Meh.Undecided
Overall I'm not impressed - didn't even look like winning a game, although I can see how it may be a good stategy 1-on-1.  
I will try a few different things, I'm not giving up yet on UB, but mono-black and black-red just seems a better fit.


Okay, so far my decklist is in a state of disarray!  But the cards I cannot leave out are;

Burning Inquiry
Necrogen Mists looks like a nice fit as long as I can get out a grimoire.
Bloodchief Ascension
Quest for the Nihil Stone
Liliana's Caress

Pryoclasm and/or Volcanic Fallout
Innocent Blood & Barter in Blood - I really like these instead of Mutilate with only 8 or so swamps in my deck.

Unnerve, Syphon Mind, Geth's Grimoire & Words of Waste.                 
I just can't see the point of including Hissing Miasma when I could have more removal/discard in there, and with the WoW/GG combo, I can't see Painful Quandary being needed either.   Thoughts?

I will have to try out some proxy's of Wheel of Torture, I'm def. a fan of The Rack, but with all the artifact removal going on with my mates, it would only last a turn.   Hmmmm.....  
 
I also wanna include a full set of Dark Ritual.  Late game I can always use it as a discard target for the Necrogen Mists.  
 
Cards I'm not sure will make it in, but I would LIKE to fit in; Sangromancer, mass discard rats maybe, maybe a pair of Noxious Revival to fetch back something I wish to use again, but with the cards above I just can't see me having any room.

Thanks again!
Don't take this the wrong way, because I don't mean it maliciously, but I'm glad that you struggled with your deck. Believe me, I've been there. There's a reason why I'm telling you about the cards and strategies that I now use, not the ones that I used 5 years ago. Warped Devotion, as you've clearly experienced, just needs too much to go right for it to work. It doesn't actually do anything on its own. Boomerang, same thing. It seems like it might help you beat enchantments or whatever, but pretty soon you realize that you can't answer every relevant threat, and that bounce doesn't automatically remove it for good. More often than not it just comes right back down. Again, I'm not trying to say "I told you so" or anything, but I do think it's important to highlight the fact that every card that I told that I hated turned out to suck ass in practice. Yeah, you better believe it's because I've also played with these cards and lost all night because of it. Basically, the idea here is that I'm not trying to waste your time or money. When I tell you that I think "X cards are good" or "X cards are bad," I largely know what I'm talking about.

Still, I actually admire what you're doing. More people need to do it. You came here and asked for advice. I basically told you that your ideas were terrible and spoonfed you a deck. Despite this, you stuck to your guns and built the deck that you wanted to build. You played it, struggled with it, and came back looking to improve. Still, you didn't just give up on the deck. You're still trying to make it work. That perseverance is critical to becoming a better player. You're not going to magically become a better deck builder unless you work at it constantly. That means taking these mediocre-bad decks and trying to make them work. If you just gave up every time someone like me challenged your ideas, then you'd probably never get anywhere. I'm just giving credit where it's due. I know that I've basically been nothing but critical, but you've definitely earned some words of praise. See, I'm not that horrible of a guy :P.

Anyways, as far as your deck goes, what I would suggest is that you do everything in your power to make a deck that works with itself. You've already stated that you're going to play certain cards no matter what. They should really shape the focus of your deck. Still, before I get to that, I'll answer some specific questions.

You asked about Painful Quandary. It's not in my list. Why? It's slow, and it's not a consistent anything. It doesn't force discards, it won't always cause lifeloss, etc. As good as it seems on paper, and as good as it can be in the right decks, it's not that powerful in a straight up discard one. Now, I have thrown 2 of them in my Control decks, and they've always played out beautifully. I wasn't looking for anything in particular, I just wanted a card that would give people headaches. That's exactly what it did. My personal opinion is that it's too slow and inconsistent to field in a dedicated discard deck, but it's definitely powerful enough to include in your standard Control decks.

 Hissing Miasma is weak as ****. It's one use is **** on token decks/fast weenie decks. It's not going to do **** against big creatures. Don't use it if you don't expect to face heavy Token resistance.

The Rack is just bad. Never play it. Nuking one opponent is never going to win you the game. You can't have these small effects in your decks if you ever want to stand a chance. Wheel of Torture? That's a fine card. It's my standby. I play 4 of them in all of my discard decks. Is it a perfect card? Absolutely not. Still, it's the only card that reads "people with few cards in hand lose life every turn." No delay, no requirements, nothing. It just comes down and does damage.

Sangromancer is a card that I've never played with, but I can't think of a reason why it would be good. Lifegain for lifegain's sake is decent and I've grown more respect for it over time. Still, it's a 4 mana creature (this is key, creatures are so easy to deal with) that doesn't actually do anything. It doesn't force discards, it doesn't deal damage to players, it doesn't... you get the idea. It will just come down and it will maybe gain you life. That's fine, but that's never winning you the game. This goes back to what I said about cutting cards that don't bring anything to the deck. This card just brings lifegain, which is virtually nothing as far as the deck's concerned.

Dark Ritual is a card that people overrate. See, Rituals are broken when they power out combos or cards that people can't reasonably handle at the time. That will never happen in this deck. You will never Ritual something out and just win the game. It doesn't happen. Now, I'm not saying that a turn 1 Necrogen Mists (or whatever, it doesn't matter) is bad, but that's not the issue at hand. Dark Ritual is straight up card disadvantage. You are using 2 cards to get 1 out. Card disadvantage sucks in multiplayer if you're not building your deck around it. You can't just pitch a card from your hand and expect to be on even footing with the other players. You've basically just mulligan'd your hand. I also hate the argument of "oh, but I can always just pitch it to my discard effects." I hear that about Liliana of the Veil all the time. I mean, why not play 4, you can just pitch extra ones that you draw to her +1 right? WRONG. The difference is that Dark Ritual/the 2nd Lili is a stone dead card whereas any other card could actually be valuable. Why would you ever want to draw and discard a blank when you could draw and play a useful spell and discard nothing? There is no advantage to drawing a useless Ritual/Liliana. Zilch, nadda, zero. Any other card would be better. It's like saying you could play Krosan Cloudscraper in your deck and just discard it if needed. That doesn't make it good card. It's still horrible.

EDIT: Before I get flamed or whatever, let me make something clear; Liliana of the Veil is an AMAZING card and I would happily play 4 of them in basically every deck that I play. Still, you're not playing 4 of them because you can always discard extras if needed. That's not a strong argument to run the full playset. You'd still rather have any other card since any other card would be playable. That being said, she's so stupidly powerful that it's worthwhile to occasional draw a dead card if it means that you can see her more consistently. Same thing with Jace, the Mindsculptor. Yes, he can shuffle away extra copies if needed, but that's not why we run 4. We'd still rather see any other card in our hand to hide away with his Brainstorm ability. Still, getting the first into play is so gamebreaking that it's worth it to have these "dead" draws.

God damn... why does every post I make in this thread have to be a ****ing essay... anyways...

Ok, so moving back to my original topic, let's talk about building your deck. You said that you wanted cards like Quest for the Nihil Stone and Bloodchief Ascension. That's fine, but that should also influence how you build your deck. Instead of fielding Pyroclasm I would 100% field Volcanic Fallout because it procs a counter for your Ascension. That may seem small, but it's very important to make these considerations. In terms of Quest, it's going to mean that keeping people at 0 cards is important. That makes Necrogen Mists important. I know that you've already said that you'll play Mists, but I'm just pointing out the obvious. As far as finishing the deck goes, you kinda have a few paths that you can choose from. Earthquake is very good at killing creatures, triggering your Ascension, and burning people out of the game. I like it more than I like Barter in Blood. There's always good old Exsanguinate too, which is just... well it's a stupid card really. Clearly, the idea here is that you can try to burn people out of the game as quickly as possible while being super disruptive with your discard. Remember, GG + WoW figures to draw you a million cards, so it's super easy to chain drain/burn spells until you win. Even Sickening Dreams can work well. You could also add some more draw to the deck. Normally I'd suggest tutors, but I can't think of any good ones. Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor are Godly, but they cost a lot of money. Beseech the Queen is amazing, but she's also only good in mono-Black decks. Infernal Tutor... just not consistent. It's never as good as you need it to be. Cards that I like are Browbeat, Skeletal Scrying and Phyrexian Arena. This is key; they're not 4+ drops. We need our draw to hit before turn 4 since that's when we really start to go off. Don't mess around with anything like Promise of Power. It's just too slow for what we need. Now, another super big consideration is Wheel of Fortune. It forces discards and refills people's hands. It's like... broken at times lol, especially if you have your combo of GG + WoW out. A key thing to remember is that this is the kind of card that can claw you back in to the game. As bad as having everyone draw 7 is, you still get to draw 7 cards. If you have stone nothing going on, and have a 0% chance to win, then this card can dig you into enough action to get right back in there. It's not just a useless card if you don't have anything good going on. I've seen people who were "out of the game" (~3% chance to win the game, tops) play this spell and just go off and win out of nowhere. It's the kind of card that takes you from assively behind to randomly even/possibly ahead. But like, again, this is more about pairing it will our other cards. It's going to fill hands right back up, and it's going to force discards. We can use both of these to our advantage. Does it pair well with Quest? Not really no. That's easily the biggest knock against it. Still, it would be foolish to just discount the card entirely. It's cerainly worth talking about.

Ok, there's my next 1500 word essay, go?
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
LOL.
Nice work Tich, you got me giggling like a child with that post!
I appreciate your help - really do, so cheers heaps for the been-there-done-that tips and lengthy explanations.
And no, I've not been irked by any of your replies, I'd be surprised if anyone would be!  You've been super helpful Tich, I owe you for all the time you've spent helping me!

Anyways, as far as your deck goes, what I would suggest is that you do everything in your power to make a deck that works with itself.


I guess this is why I'm keen to have Bloodchief Ascension and Quest for the Nihil Stone both as 4-of's.  As long as I can hit one of them in my initial draw my deck has a chance of hurting.   That's where I'm still not sure of Liliana's Caress.  Whilst it will help to get the Ascension going, after that I'll be relying on Ascension and Nihil, where really, I could forgo the Caress and concentrate more elsewhere on cards that punish a low hand.

Wheel of Torture? That's a fine card. It's my standby. I play 4 of them in all of my discard decks. No delay, no requirements, nothing. It just comes down and does damage.


 
Yeah I think I'm sold.  After using The Rack (proxy's) in a duel I'm gonna have to get on with these.

Cards that I like are Browbeat, Skeletal Scrying and Phyrexian Arena. This is key; they're not 4+ drops. We need our draw to hit before turn 4 since that's when we really start to go off. Don't mess around with anything like Promise of Power. It's just too slow for what we need. Now, another super big consideration is Wheel of Fortune. It forces discards and refills people's hands.


I like Browbeat - got a pair in my Burn deck.  I find they're a LOT more likely to bag me cards when I play it early, (and with cards in hand) so they're thinkin bout whether I have a Ball Lightning coming.  ;D

Considering this deck is gonna have to play repeated sweeps to stop creature based stompy-stompy-happy-times, Browbeat may be a better fit than the other's that'll cost me life. I think the biggest problem I'm gonna have is activating the Ascension, and preventing myself being twotted.  
 
Cheers for the headsup on Eartquake, having less mana restriction is a big plus since my mana base is gonna be more black than red. Late game Earthquake could be brutal!     Exsanguinate is LOL material, I'll have to get some of those too.
I'm really liking the look of Black Sun's Zenith.....shame it's so pricey!

Well, I'm gonna go get some proxies sorted and try out my deck idea, might make up some proxy's and try your deck too.
.... be back in a couple days or so once I've had a chance to trial it against a few different decks.

Cheers again Tich, thanks for all the help!    
  
BSZ is good, there's no doubting that, but I mean there's infinity Earthquake variants that you could use instead. It's not like this deck will ever play more than 8 mass removal spells, and I means that's an easy 4x EQ and 4x Fault Line if needed. Both cards handle creatures, trigger Ascension, and nuke people (which makes them virtual win conditions). Again, BSZ is fine, but all it does is nuke creatures. Now, what it does do is kill Indestructible creatures and En-Cor creatures and all of that nonsense. It can definitely be much, much more powerful than a simple "damage" spell. Still, if the goal is simply to normal creatures that will die to damage, then you really can't go wrong with these burn spells. Again, having answers to creatures that naturally work with our other cards feels important to me. I like locking people at 0 cards and making creatures useless via Bridge + Noetic Scales. I like the idea of playing a ton of mass burn that protects us, activates our Ascension, and potentially wins the game.

Oh, and I should mention my hero card, Boseiju, Who Shelters All. It's not a cheap card and I won't try and fool you otherwise, but it's worth its weight in gold if counters are an issue (which is it seems like they might be). It's just the bees knees when it comes to landing your important X spells (EQ, Exsanguinate, etc.) or ensuring that Syphon Mind sticks. Not sure if this is needed, but it's definitely a card to keep on the backburner.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
BSZ is good, there's no doubting that, but I mean there's infinity Earthquake variants that you could use instead. It's not like this deck will ever play more than 8 mass removal spells, and I means that's an easy 4x EQ and 4x Fault Line if needed. Both cards handle creatures, trigger Ascension, and nuke people (which makes them virtual win conditions). Again, BSZ is fine, but all it does is nuke creatures. Now, what it does do is kill Indestructible creatures and En-Cor creatures and all of that nonsense. It can definitely be much, much more powerful than a simple "damage" spell. Still, if the goal is simply to normal creatures that will die to damage, then you really can't go wrong with these burn spells. Again, having answers to creatures that naturally work with our other cards feels important to me. I like locking people at 0 cards and making creatures useless via Bridge + Noetic Scales. I like the idea of playing a ton of mass burn that protects us, activates our Ascension, and potentially wins the game.

Oh, and I should mention my hero card, Boseiju, Who Shelters All. It's not a cheap card and I won't try and fool you otherwise, but it's worth its weight in gold if counters are an issue (which is it seems like they might be). It's just the bees knees when it comes to landing your important X spells (EQ, Exsanguinate, etc.) or ensuring that Syphon Mind sticks. Not sure if this is needed, but it's definitely a card to keep on the backburner.



Cheers.

I made up a deck based off the burn idea, but BSZ was more expensive than I thought!
www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/32...
Nice cheap deck. 
This deck is just an idea based off your combo idea with the Ensnaring Bridge & Necrogen Mists and co.
I've not put in Noetic Scales  because the more they have on the field, the faster they twot each other.
I decided on 24 lands to try and get out all my 3-drops ASAP and use my X-spells. 

Cards that I didn't include, that could easily be popped in; Molten Disaster & Abyssal Gatekeeper/Blistergrub.
Despite me trying to keep the deck creatureless, Blistergrub looks good....but then I DO have too many 3-drops in the deck even without it, maybe more Flame Rift instead ;D
Syphon Mind is another that really should get a place for early game, but late game it'll be a dead card. 
One I'm not sure about is Mindcrank. It looks good with the Ascension, but unless the Ascension is activated, it seems like it would only help black players.... really don't like it in this deck, but if the combo worked the game would end quicky.  
Another I would really like to include is Noxious Revival for those other black players...... 
 
The main point of the deck is gaining life through Exsanguinate & Bloodchief Ascension whilst smashing everything else.
I did consider putting in more Molten Disaster, cos it can be hard to counter, but it's not gonna be much use until late game i've got down 5+ lands.
Thoughts on this card?
In testing, I'm finding that I have to mulligan VERY aggressively to get a Bloodchief Ascension or the deck just doesn't do anything but smash itself in a blaze of glory.  Likewise, should someone have an Austere Command or Back to Nature I'll be going out in a blaze of glory too.   Kind of fits with the deck theme really..... as long as I can take some of them with me!

Mindcrank isn't great if you're not dedicating a lot into your combo. BloodCrank will end the game, but it's far from consistent in a deck with no real tutors/draw. I'd feel sketchy about playing them in this particular deck.

If you're finding the deck too suicidal then you could always side out some of the burn and add some more defense/removal. If you look at my list, I dedicate a lot of slots for cards that will protect me. Even if you don't like the specific cards that I've used, there's nothing stopping you from playing "better" (better for you obviously) versions of the cards if needed. You can also side out some burn and field some more drain. Like, why not just play Syphon Soul over the Grubs or whatever? Pay 3, drain everyone for 2, gain a bunch of life. Seems fine to me. Blood Tithe, same idea. Burn is good, but drain is typically better.

As far as mass removal goes, that's just the path that we chose. We're never going to win every game, so it's pointless to go for them all. Build a deck that wins when it works, and force people to have the right answers at the right times. Take 'em to the cleaners when they don't.

Well... I mean, I guess you could consider trying to cram Contamination into the deck. Pair it with Nether Spirit or Reassembling Skeleton (or have a Hellbent Gibbering Descent) and you can just lock non-Black players out of the game. It's a lot of cards to add and it will make the deck awkward at times, but it is an out to removal that I don't hate. It sorta wins the game after all. I dunno, it's not HORRIBLE, so maybe it's worth talking about.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
....why not just play Syphon Soul over the Grubs or whatever? Pay 3, drain everyone for 2, gain a bunch of life. Seems fine to me. Blood Tithe, same idea. Burn is good, but drain is typically better.

I guess you could consider trying to cram Contamination into the deck.



You've got a point there - getn some life to stay alive will definitely help!
I like Syphon Soul, didn't know about that one, or Blood Tithe either to be honest.  Your knowledge of Magic is pretty amazing!
I am a fan of any sort of life-gain when it hurts someone else, especially when this deck is gonna be so dependant on sticking around long enough to get the combo going.
Yeah the grubs will go, the Syphon and Tithe will get a spot - they look a good option to activate the Ascension and keep me alive VS group hate.

I did look at the Contamination idea, not sure how to make it work with a dual colour deck.... think I'll go with what I've got at the mo', but could you offer one last bit of advice?  
Boseiju & Glacial Chasm - how many should I include in a deck, considering I've got only two tutors & don't wanna spend more than $60-70 (no instant dual lands) on a deck?   

Cheers Again Tich 
Yeah, my bad on the Contamination suggestion. See like, I'm a diehard mono-Black player. Sometimes I forget that cards have drawbacks lol. It would be stupid to put it in your 2 color deck, that should have been obvious, but it wasn't to me when I typed that at 2:30AM. I'm too used to having it read "you can play spells but your opponents can't." I forgot that that's not how it works for the rest of the world >.>.

Is Chasm expensive? I was under the impression that it was like a 40 cent card lol. Anyways, I've never played with more than 2 in my decks, but you probably just run with 0. As much as I like the card, it's not actually that easy to play. It can do amazing things when you're firing off big Earthquakes and taking 0 damage from it + creature beats while you're doing it, but I've also seen people play it horribly wrong and basically let themselves die to it. Maybe it's not something that you'll want to jump into right away. Simple is probably best for now. You can worry about cards like these once you have more experience with the deck maybe.

As far as Boseiju goes, I never run with more than 1. It's just a horrible card to see early/see in multiples. I also don't advise playing it unless you actually know that you need it. Like, it's a strictly worse Swamp if people aren't countering your X spells. It's not a card that we want to put in our decks. Anyways, I wouldn't ever buy more than 1 unless you were building a dedicated burn deck with like nothing but drain spells, Earthquakes, and Breath of Malfegors, AND people were likely to counter them. I'd play 2-3 if I was only using sorceries/instants and if they were all risk of being countered, but it's not very good in your current deck. It doesn't protect most of your spells, just Exsang and EQ really. So, again, it should only be used if you really need it.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
No worries. 

  

As far as Boseiju goes, I never run with more than 1. It's just a horrible card to see early/see in multiples. I also don't advise playing it unless you actually know that you need it. Like, it's a strictly worse Swamp if people aren't countering your X spells. It's not a card that we want to put in our decks. Anyways, I wouldn't ever buy more than 1 unless you were building a dedicated burn deck with like nothing but drain spells, Earthquakes, and Breath of Malfegors, AND people were likely to counter them. I'd play 2-3 if I was only using sorceries/instants and if they were all risk of being countered, but it's not very good in your current deck. It doesn't protect most of your spells, just Exsang and EQ really. So, again, it should only be used if you really need it.



Well it kinda depends.  The people I like to play with are a random lot, we quite often bring completely different decks/strategies week to week, so some weeks we'll end up with lots of variation, other weeks we get everyone (apart from me) playing with blueish decks of counter shenanigans.
The drunker people get, the bigger the counter stack gets.....who knows what did what to whom and how in the end  :D 

For those weeks when I might be facing a lot of blue - Boseiju, Who Shelter's All looks like the ducks nuts. As does Glacial Chasm.
Having not played G-Chasm before, I'm assuming I'd keep it in hand until the Gibbering Descent is down or when I'm getting smashed, just not to plonk it down early.  I think you're dead on re: Boseiju.  If I'm gonna be running cards like Volcanic Fallout & Molten Disaster I may be better set just increasing their numbers.
I guess....you know, cos this deck is pretty annoying already.... just in case this deck isn't annoying enough , Glacial Chasm would enable me to run Mana Barbs!
(facepalm)
Yes yes I know, X-Spells and manabarbs. (double  facepalm)

Well I'm pretty happy with this deck so far - I would like to get a deck with Burning Inquiry, & Geth's Grimoire charging, but I think it may be time to quit when you're ahead! LOL. .....but I'll keep thinkin on it.

Thanks so much for help Tich - cheers for the honesty and for the hours you've put into your well thoughtout replies.
Ta!
I mean yeah, if every now and then people whip out a bunch of Blue decks, then you really can't go wrong with having 1-2 Boseijus in your collection. I'd NEVER play with 4, but I have definitely played with 3 when 4 or more players all had counter-based decks. There's nothing quite like the collective sighs of the table when you plop down that Exsanguinate for 10 and no one has the Mindbreak Trap or Time Stop lol. This is where you want to take the time to congratulate everyone for "hating" out your deck lol.

With respect to G.Chasm, I'm just not sure if I like it in your deck. The problem is that constant discard makes it a very awkward card to play with at times. Like, where I love Chasm is in Black/Red decks filled with tons of burn. You can just tutor for it/keep it in hand until you absolutely need it. In a deck with Descent and Mists, what happens when you draw it and you have Mist in play? You're kinda... not in a good spot lol. If it's Descent, you're obviously fine, because hopefully you're Hellbent and at that point you're just immortal for the rest of the game. Fun times! I'm just... eh... it seems like it could be awkward if not useless otherwise. I dunno, this might be something that you'll just have to test yourself really. I've never played with a Black/Red discard deck, so it's not like this is a domain that I know in and out. I would play with 1, and see how it plays out. If you like it, grab another at some point down the road. If not, cut it and add something else. Chasm is a VERY powerful card but it's not a free-roll or anything. It does have plenty of associated risks. I would just try and get a feel for the card and see how you personally feel about it.

You talked about cards like Barbs, global burn, Acidic Soil, Flame Rift, Exsanguinate, etc. to pair with Chasm. Why even use discard? Why not just build a solid "burn them out" deck at that point? That's what I typically do now. It blanks most creature/enchantment/artifact removal, handles creatures, gets past counters with Boseiju, etc. If nothing else that could be the next step for this deck. Just replace the discard with cards like Breath of Malfegor and try that every now and then. Mix things up and whatnot. It's not like the deck costs anything. You won't go over budget by buying a few 5 cent cards like Acidic Soil and Breath of Malfegor or whatever. I don't like playing the same deck twice, so I'm always mixing my decks up after games. Having a discard deck that "sideboards" into a burn deck seems like it could be very fun and effective. You could also have fun mixing and matching cards to get a feel for what you like most. I hate having 60 card decks that never change to be honest.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Hve been reading everything between you and Tich.  I will say I have learned a great deal from Tich and I'm still learning and I have been playing on and off for 20 yrs.  He tell's it's like how he see's it and I respect that.  I'm just wandering what Tich would think about adding in Breaking Point.  It's something that is affordable compared to Damnation.  You were talking about adding cards like innocent blood or barter in blood for sweeper removal with no creatures.  To me this make some sense either one person takes damage or everyone loses there creatures.  From some personal experience no one likes to take damage in mp.

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Single Card

[*c]Forest[*/c] minus * = Forest

 

Deck

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Card Nicknames [*c=Wrath of God]WoG[*/c] minus the * = WoG

 

Single Player Decks I'm currently playing

Assault of the Minotaurs

Lands
19 Mountain
4 Khalni Garden
1 Thawing Glaciers

 

Artifacts
4 Didgeridoo
4 Gorgon Flail
1 Konda's Banner
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul

 

Spells
4 Assault Strobe

 

Creatures
4 Adaptive Automaton
4 Anaba Ancestor
4 Minotaur Aggressor
4 Talruum Minotaur
4 Gorehorn Minotaurs
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Tahngarth, Talruum Hero

Rapid infenction

Lands

18 Forest
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
4 Glistener Elf
4 Necropede
4 Ichorclaw Myr

 

Spells
4 Rancor
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Griant Growth
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Apostle's Blessing

Use your Illusion

Lands
18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

Creatures
4 Krovikan Mist
3 Phantom Warrior
3 Phantasmal Dragon
4 Lord of the Unreal
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Adaptive Automaton
3 Illusory Angel

Artifacts
2 Swiftfoot Boots

Spells
3 Sleep
4 Ponder
4 Muddle the Mixture

Goblin deck

Land

16 Mountain

4 Goblin Burrows

 

Spells
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Goblin War Strike
2 Brightstone Ritual
2 Quest for the Goblin Lord

 

Creatures
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Balloon Brigade
3 Goblin Guide
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin King
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Look out the Land is Falling

Lands
4 Evoling Wilds
4 Terramorphic Expanse
7 Plains
9 Forest

Spells
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Cultivate
3 Groundswell

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts
2 Adventuring Gear

Creatures
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Ruin Ghost
2 Baloth Woodcrasher
2 Rampaging Baloths
4 Emeria Angel
4 Vinelasher Kudzu

Ula's Deep Sea Drezins

Lands
18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

Creatures
4 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Kraken Hatchling
3 Sage of Epityr
4 Stormtide Leviathan
2 Grozoth
3 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Cursecatcher


Enchantment
4 Quest for Ula's Temple

Spells
4 Preordain
4 Dizzy Spell
4 Clockspinning

Green Beatdown

Lands

18 Forest
4 Treetop Village


Spells
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Rancor
2 Might of Oaks

Creatures
4 Albino Troll
4 Groundbreaker
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Viridian Zealot
4 Pouncing Jaguar
4 Leatherback Baloth
3 River Boa
1 Mire Boa

Elemental Assault

Lands
16 Mountain
4 Teetering Peaks

Spells
4 Lightning bolt
3 Breaking Point
1 Warstorm Surge
4 Brute Force
4 Browbeat
4 Assault Strobe

Creatures
4 Ball Lightning
4 Hell's Thunder
4 Blistering Firecat
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
2 Lightning Serpent

Death from the Sky

Land
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Seaside Haven
5 Plains
5 Island

 

Creatures
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Soulcatcher
4 Judge's Familar
3 Augury Owl
3 Cloudreach Cavalry
3 Pride of Clouds
2 Emeria Angel
2 Aven Mimeomancer
1 God of Awe

 

Spells
4 Soulcatchers' Aerie
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Battle Screech
2 Airborne Raid

Stompy

Lands
18 Forest

Creatures
3 Garruk's Companion
3 Rogue Elephant
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
3 Pouncing Jaguar
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Shinen of Life's Roar

Spells
3 Groundswell
4 Rancor
3 Gather Courage
3 Briar Shield
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Fog

Multi-Player Decks I'm currently Playing

Discard

Lands
22 Swamp

 

Spells
4 Innocent Blood
4 Mutilate
4 Sign in Blood

2 Syphon Mind
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Enchantments
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Bottomless Pit
4 Shrieking Affliction

Artifacts
4 Wheel of Torture
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Bottled Cloister

Everyone Burns

18 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Glacial Chasm
1 Shivan Gorge

Creatures
4 Aether Membrane

Artifacts
3 Sun Droplet

Enchantments
4 Quest for Pure Flame

Spells
4 Sizzle
4 Flame Rift
4 Browbeat
4 Flamebreak
4 Acidic Soil
3 Breaking Point
3 Breath of Darigaaz

Brewing a Storm

Lands
2 Glacial Chasm
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Greypelt Refuge
4 Brushland
4 Forest
5 Plains

Spells
3 Wrath of God
2 Hurricane


Enchantment
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Titania's Song
2 Aura of Silence
2 Kismet
1 Fastbond

 

Artifacts
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Storm Cauldron
4 Ankh of Mishra
2 Sun Droplet
1 Venser's Journal
2 Horn of Greed
4 Iron Maiden
4 Darksteel Ingot

Beast Gone Wild

Lands
3 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Contested Cliffs
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Gruul Turf
1 Yavimaya Hollow
8 Forest

 

Creatures
4 Krosan Warchief
4 Wirewood Savage
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Rampaging Baloths
2 Spearbreaker Behemoth
2 Mold Shambler
2 Terra Stomper
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Gruul Ragebeast
1 Silklash Spider
1 Copperhoof Vorrac
1 Ursapine
1 Molder Slug
1 Protean Hulk

 

Enchantments
4 Wild Growth
2 Warstorm Surge
1 Spidersilk Armor

 

Planeswalker
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Elven Rythym Nation

Lands
14 Forest
2 Wirewood Lodge
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
3 Joraga Warcaller
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Priest of Titania
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Imperious Perfect

 

Spells
1 Asceticism
2 Biorhythm
2 Hurricane
2 Eldrazi Monument

I want to drink your blood

Lands
18 Swamp
4 Leechridden Swamp
2 Cabal Coffers

 

Creatures
4 Pulse Tracker
3 Blood Artist
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Malakir Bloodwitch
3 Falkenrath Noble
2 Bloodline Keeper

 

Enchantments
3 Underworld Connections
1 No Mercy
1 Phyrexian Reclamation

 

Spells
4 Syphon Soul
4 Blood Tithe
3 Exsanguinate

Draw equals Pain

Land
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Deserted Temple
2 Reliquary Tower
3 Island
2 Mountain

 

Creatures
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
2 Jace's Archivist
2 Kami of the Crescent Moon
4 Psychosis Crawler

 

Artifacts
4 Howling Mine
4 Iron Maiden
4 Ebony Owl Netsuke
1 Ivory Tower

 

Spells
4 Winds of Change
4 Molten Psyche
2 Copy Artifact
2 Sunder
2 Cyclonic Rift

Rainbow Sliver

Lands
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Breeding Pool

 

Creatures
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Gemhide Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Homing Sliver
2 Heart Sliver
2 Acidic Sliver
1 Sliver Overlord
1 Essence Sliver
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Brood Sliver
1 Shifting Sliver
1 Fury Sliver

 

Spells
3 Distant Melody
1 Creeping Renaissance

 

Artifacts
2 Door of Destinies

soldier

Lands
22 Plains
2 Emeria, Sky Ruin

 

Creatures
4 Veteran Swordsmith
4 Daru Warchief
3 Field Marshal
3 Knight-Captain of Eos
3 Captain of the Watch
3 Catapult Master
2 Loxodon Gatekeeper
2 Angel of Glory's Rise
2 Stormfront Riders
1 Darien, King of Kjeldor
1 Odric, Master Tactician

 

Spells
4 Skullclamp
2 Eldrazi Monument
1 Mobilization

 

Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Life Test

Lands
16 Plains
4 Kabira Crossroads
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Miren, the Moaing Well

 

Creatures
4 Wall of Reverence
2 Divinity of Pride
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Kami of False Hope

 

Spells
2 Test of Endurance
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Beacon of Immortality
2 Fracturing Gust
3 Congregate
2 Well of Lost Dreams
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Chastise
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Debtors' Knell

 

Planeswalker
1 Ajani Goldmane

 

Cards like Breaking Point will always vary from meta to meta. There's no right answer as far as they're concerned. I will personally never take 5 or 6 or whatever because I have never seen someone Lava Axe themselves and go on to win the game. It's the whole "free rider" problem. When you start eating damage, you basically help out your opponents since you're providing them with a service at no cost. Like any normal human being, they're going to take advantage of that service as much as possible. I mean, why make an investment into something when someone else is willing to do it? As a side note, this is also why I hate spot removal. Hurt 1 player but help out everyone else? Screw that. So yeah, you'll never see me eat 6 for BP, but that doesn't mean that it won't happen. It's not a good card if someone just takes 6. Sure, he might "auto" lose the game, but that might not be obvious to him/everyone. And like, mass removal isn't normally something that you can afford to whiff on. If people have 12 power on the table and you need to clear it out, then you actually just lose if people eat 6. I don't dislike the card (nor Browbeat) but that's mostly because they work for me/people in our meta. It's just not worth it to be the guy who loses the game + helps everyone else out. Still, I can't say with any certainty at all what people in his meta will do.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Breaking Point is one of my favourite cards for the 'deck full of global effects, flip one over if you roll a 6 at the start of your turn' format. The one that died off once Planechase came along. I miss it; Planechase was fun, but I loved the random deck.

I'm derailing. Maybe I should make a thread about it some time. I think it's been discussed at length in the past, though, so it'd all just be retreading old ground (March of Souls good, Wrath of God bad).
Okay so just for **** and giggles I made up a straight burn deck based on Bloodchief Ascension.
www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/33...
Nothing spectacular - just lots of global burn, leeching and ascension.  I kept the lands to as many basic as I thought would work reliably.
Completely forgot about Breaking Point and Painful Quandary but they would be a inclusion. 
I like Death Cloud but the 3 swamp mana requirement is tricky with dual colours.   Shame, I looooove Death Cloud. 
Looking at this list, I can't help but wonder if a single/couple copies of mana-barbs would be fun once I've laid down a Glacial Chasm. he he! 

This deck is gonna be nasty against anything with few counters - to be honest, I think I'm gonna have to buy a whole lot of cards to make up a variation of decks  from this thread, just to see how it all pans out in play.
One thing is for certain though, I'm lovin Bloodchief Ascension with a red focused deck.
So I've made up another varaition of the above burn-leech idea, but this time I put in a couple Death Pits of Rath and Meekstone to go with the others. I'm a little unsure whether to just straight swap Painful Quandary with Deathpits, or use both.
I put in Meekstone for early board help, but I also think some Dark Ritual's wouldn't go astray with the X-spells in here.  
I don't think I have enough room for all of the above said cards, ad I'm leaning towards taking out the Painfuls' in favour of Rituals.
Opinions?
 www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/33...
I decided to keep the deck fairly varied, so as to make it a bit more fun. 
What does eveyone think?  Does this deck look about right for a straight up burn, leech and punish? 

I do have a question;
Should I come up against a nasty En-Kor style deck, would a card like Infest/BSZ take care of all of them, or would they still be able to channel it all to a Stuffy Doll etc?

I do have a question;
Should I come up against a nasty En-Kor style deck, would a card like Infest/BSZ take care of all of them, or would they still be able to channel it all to a Stuffy Doll etc?



BSZ puts -1/-1 counters on creatures. It doesn't do damage so the En-Kor's ability wouldn't work.
Cheers - nice to know ;)

So back to DISCARD;
After a few nights playing proxy cards, trying to get a consistent deck centered around Geth's Grimoire with Words of Waste, I'm at a loss to make it work without some kind of creature based defense.  When it goes off with Wheel of Torture in play it is nice, but I'm yet to find a reliable/consistent way to prevent aggro decks just pummelling me, and having to board in 10 sweeping style cards really limits my capacity to prevent opponent big draw engines from going off.

I tried using cards like Circle of Flame & - bad combo idea I know, but I have been trying lots of random things....
The times I had a decent level of protection was when I had out an Abyssal Gatekeeper and used cards like Pyroclasm to clear the weenies from play.   Very situational at best.
I've tried using Meekstone too, which has the effect of working for as long as players need protection!! Some of the my opponents countered some artifact hate to keep it in play.    So Meekstone isn't bad, and stops pumped Knights pretty good, but Warren Instigator sucks hard.

So really, I'm finding that whilst in a R/B deck centered on burn/leeching Bloodchief Ascension works fairly well, I realise now it's far from perfect in a discard deck.  (a belated told-you-so would be nice here Tich)   I just can't get it online quickly enough without drawing hate, although late game with Wheel of Torture and constant discard in play it can be nice.  


One thing that I'll tell you right now is that Red doesn't pull its weight in the deck. There's basically no reason to run it. Every Red card that you've listed is either too slow, weak, vulnerable, or conditional to really be of any use. I would keep the deck mono-Black. It's just plain better.



And this is what I'm coming to see.  Whilst the Ascension is great when noone can remove it - with my group it hasn't lasted long.
With RED in there and a bit of burn, I'd want Bloodchief Ascension.  Without it? ....I'm not really having a whole lot of reason to include RED.
Really, the whole reason for me to include red would be the synergy between cards like Pyroclasm/Volcanic Fallout and Meekstone/Death Pits of Rath.  

RE: Geth's Grimoire & Words of Waste, I'm not sure how to make a deck with red work consistently.
But now I'm wondering - is there a card that punishes your opponents when you (not them) draw a card? Kinda like a reverse Megrim?
With Wheel of Fortune that might be a tactic....if it exists, and might be a reason to run red after all.       

    
    

 
Eh, it's like I said before, it's probably a good thing that you're learning this stuff on your own. I mean, you don't have any reason to trust me or my opinions. I'm just some random stranger giving you advice based on anecdotal (and possibly made up) evidence. 

Meh, on second thought, screw it. I TOLD YOU SO MOTHER ****!

Anyways, the "reverse Megrim" that you're looking for is Psychosis Crawler. I've paired that card with Yawgmoth's Bargain before, and let's just say that it was fun . Underworld Dreams is another possibility if you're going to be running with Wheel of Fortune/Wheel of Fate and Burning Inquiry. Still, I'm going to warn you upfront that decks with Underworld Dreams and like Volcanic Fallout will STRUGGLE to cast spells if you just run with basic lands. You have to invest in dual lands of some sort, no matter how bad they are. Otherwise you'll be sitting there unable to cast your spells on time.

Going back to what you said about aggro decks, this goes back to my initial decklist. It was packed with cards that handle creatures for a reason. These decks draw hate, and you need ways of shutting down the retaliation that you'll be subjected to. I know that I'm just repeating myself, but I chose those cards with great diligence and care.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Cheers - nice to know ;)

So back to DISCARD;
After a few nights playing proxy cards, trying to get a consistent deck centered around Geth's Grimoire with Words of Waste, I'm at a loss to make it work without some kind of creature based defense.  When it goes off with Wheel of Torture in play it is nice



Do you have a current deck list.  This way Tich and anyone else might give you some suggestions on what to put in and take out. 

I am Red/Green
I am Red/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

 

I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.
 

How to autocard
 

Most important rule in autocarding is make sure you spell the card correctly.

 

Single Card

[*c]Forest[*/c] minus * = Forest

 

Deck

[*deck]

16 Forest

2 strip mine

[*/deck]

minus * =

Card Nicknames [*c=Wrath of God]WoG[*/c] minus the * = WoG

 

Single Player Decks I'm currently playing

Assault of the Minotaurs

Lands
19 Mountain
4 Khalni Garden
1 Thawing Glaciers

 

Artifacts
4 Didgeridoo
4 Gorgon Flail
1 Konda's Banner
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul

 

Spells
4 Assault Strobe

 

Creatures
4 Adaptive Automaton
4 Anaba Ancestor
4 Minotaur Aggressor
4 Talruum Minotaur
4 Gorehorn Minotaurs
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Tahngarth, Talruum Hero

Rapid infenction

Lands

18 Forest
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
4 Glistener Elf
4 Necropede
4 Ichorclaw Myr

 

Spells
4 Rancor
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Griant Growth
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Apostle's Blessing

Use your Illusion

Lands
18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

Creatures
4 Krovikan Mist
3 Phantom Warrior
3 Phantasmal Dragon
4 Lord of the Unreal
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Adaptive Automaton
3 Illusory Angel

Artifacts
2 Swiftfoot Boots

Spells
3 Sleep
4 Ponder
4 Muddle the Mixture

Goblin deck

Land

16 Mountain

4 Goblin Burrows

 

Spells
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Goblin War Strike
2 Brightstone Ritual
2 Quest for the Goblin Lord

 

Creatures
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Balloon Brigade
3 Goblin Guide
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin King
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Look out the Land is Falling

Lands
4 Evoling Wilds
4 Terramorphic Expanse
7 Plains
9 Forest

Spells
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Cultivate
3 Groundswell

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts
2 Adventuring Gear

Creatures
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Ruin Ghost
2 Baloth Woodcrasher
2 Rampaging Baloths
4 Emeria Angel
4 Vinelasher Kudzu

Ula's Deep Sea Drezins

Lands
18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

Creatures
4 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Kraken Hatchling
3 Sage of Epityr
4 Stormtide Leviathan
2 Grozoth
3 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Cursecatcher


Enchantment
4 Quest for Ula's Temple

Spells
4 Preordain
4 Dizzy Spell
4 Clockspinning

Green Beatdown

Lands

18 Forest
4 Treetop Village


Spells
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Rancor
2 Might of Oaks

Creatures
4 Albino Troll
4 Groundbreaker
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Viridian Zealot
4 Pouncing Jaguar
4 Leatherback Baloth
3 River Boa
1 Mire Boa

Elemental Assault

Lands
16 Mountain
4 Teetering Peaks

Spells
4 Lightning bolt
3 Breaking Point
1 Warstorm Surge
4 Brute Force
4 Browbeat
4 Assault Strobe

Creatures
4 Ball Lightning
4 Hell's Thunder
4 Blistering Firecat
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
2 Lightning Serpent

Death from the Sky

Land
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Seaside Haven
5 Plains
5 Island

 

Creatures
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Soulcatcher
4 Judge's Familar
3 Augury Owl
3 Cloudreach Cavalry
3 Pride of Clouds
2 Emeria Angel
2 Aven Mimeomancer
1 God of Awe

 

Spells
4 Soulcatchers' Aerie
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Battle Screech
2 Airborne Raid

Stompy

Lands
18 Forest

Creatures
3 Garruk's Companion
3 Rogue Elephant
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
3 Pouncing Jaguar
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Shinen of Life's Roar

Spells
3 Groundswell
4 Rancor
3 Gather Courage
3 Briar Shield
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Fog

Multi-Player Decks I'm currently Playing

Discard

Lands
22 Swamp

 

Spells
4 Innocent Blood
4 Mutilate
4 Sign in Blood

2 Syphon Mind
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Enchantments
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Bottomless Pit
4 Shrieking Affliction

Artifacts
4 Wheel of Torture
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Bottled Cloister

Everyone Burns

18 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Glacial Chasm
1 Shivan Gorge

Creatures
4 Aether Membrane

Artifacts
3 Sun Droplet

Enchantments
4 Quest for Pure Flame

Spells
4 Sizzle
4 Flame Rift
4 Browbeat
4 Flamebreak
4 Acidic Soil
3 Breaking Point
3 Breath of Darigaaz

Brewing a Storm

Lands
2 Glacial Chasm
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Greypelt Refuge
4 Brushland
4 Forest
5 Plains

Spells
3 Wrath of God
2 Hurricane


Enchantment
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Titania's Song
2 Aura of Silence
2 Kismet
1 Fastbond

 

Artifacts
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Storm Cauldron
4 Ankh of Mishra
2 Sun Droplet
1 Venser's Journal
2 Horn of Greed
4 Iron Maiden
4 Darksteel Ingot

Beast Gone Wild

Lands
3 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Contested Cliffs
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Gruul Turf
1 Yavimaya Hollow
8 Forest

 

Creatures
4 Krosan Warchief
4 Wirewood Savage
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Rampaging Baloths
2 Spearbreaker Behemoth
2 Mold Shambler
2 Terra Stomper
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Gruul Ragebeast
1 Silklash Spider
1 Copperhoof Vorrac
1 Ursapine
1 Molder Slug
1 Protean Hulk

 

Enchantments
4 Wild Growth
2 Warstorm Surge
1 Spidersilk Armor

 

Planeswalker
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Elven Rythym Nation

Lands
14 Forest
2 Wirewood Lodge
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
3 Joraga Warcaller
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Priest of Titania
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Imperious Perfect

 

Spells
1 Asceticism
2 Biorhythm
2 Hurricane
2 Eldrazi Monument

I want to drink your blood

Lands
18 Swamp
4 Leechridden Swamp
2 Cabal Coffers

 

Creatures
4 Pulse Tracker
3 Blood Artist
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Malakir Bloodwitch
3 Falkenrath Noble
2 Bloodline Keeper

 

Enchantments
3 Underworld Connections
1 No Mercy
1 Phyrexian Reclamation

 

Spells
4 Syphon Soul
4 Blood Tithe
3 Exsanguinate

Draw equals Pain

Land
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Deserted Temple
2 Reliquary Tower
3 Island
2 Mountain

 

Creatures
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
2 Jace's Archivist
2 Kami of the Crescent Moon
4 Psychosis Crawler

 

Artifacts
4 Howling Mine
4 Iron Maiden
4 Ebony Owl Netsuke
1 Ivory Tower

 

Spells
4 Winds of Change
4 Molten Psyche
2 Copy Artifact
2 Sunder
2 Cyclonic Rift

Rainbow Sliver

Lands
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Breeding Pool

 

Creatures
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Gemhide Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Homing Sliver
2 Heart Sliver
2 Acidic Sliver
1 Sliver Overlord
1 Essence Sliver
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Brood Sliver
1 Shifting Sliver
1 Fury Sliver

 

Spells
3 Distant Melody
1 Creeping Renaissance

 

Artifacts
2 Door of Destinies

soldier

Lands
22 Plains
2 Emeria, Sky Ruin

 

Creatures
4 Veteran Swordsmith
4 Daru Warchief
3 Field Marshal
3 Knight-Captain of Eos
3 Captain of the Watch
3 Catapult Master
2 Loxodon Gatekeeper
2 Angel of Glory's Rise
2 Stormfront Riders
1 Darien, King of Kjeldor
1 Odric, Master Tactician

 

Spells
4 Skullclamp
2 Eldrazi Monument
1 Mobilization

 

Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Life Test

Lands
16 Plains
4 Kabira Crossroads
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Miren, the Moaing Well

 

Creatures
4 Wall of Reverence
2 Divinity of Pride
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Kami of False Hope

 

Spells
2 Test of Endurance
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Beacon of Immortality
2 Fracturing Gust
3 Congregate
2 Well of Lost Dreams
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Chastise
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Debtors' Knell

 

Planeswalker
1 Ajani Goldmane

 

Meh, on second thought, screw it. I TOLD YOU SO MOTHER ****!

Going back to what you said about aggro decks, this goes back to my initial decklist. It was packed with cards that handle creatures for a reason. These decks draw hate, and you need ways of shutting down the retaliation that you'll be subjected to. I know that I'm just repeating myself, but I chose those cards with great diligence and care.



Ha ha - nice. LOL.

Yeah I have a playset of Dragonskull Summit & .  Not a big fan of Lavaclaw, may get some Akoum Refuge....
Thanks for the headsup re: Psychosis Crawler.     

For the sake of this thread I really want to get a BR discard deck to work with the Grimoire....but I'm just not getting the cards to work well together consistently in multiplayer.

No worries Green Meanie, here is what I was last using;

4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Akoum Refuge
2x Lavaclaw Reaches
Roughly half and half basic Swamps/Mountains - total land cards 22, aswell as
1x Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
1x Glacial Chasm          
  
4x Abyssal Gatekeeper

4x Meekstone
4x Pyroclasm
4x Volcanic Fallout
4x Wheel of Torture
3x Geth's Grimoire
4x Words of Waste
4x
3x Diabolic Tutor
2x Gibbering Descent 

I'm not sure about this list - thinking of Death Pits of Rath to get some more worth from my red hate, or maybe a couple of Exsanguinate
This land has been working quite well for me, only once have I ever not been able to cast a volcanic fallout by turn four.  
Thanks for the list.  Try Burning Inquiry in place of either Pyroclasm or vocanic fallout.

I am Red/Green
I am Red/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

 

I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.
 

How to autocard
 

Most important rule in autocarding is make sure you spell the card correctly.

 

Single Card

[*c]Forest[*/c] minus * = Forest

 

Deck

[*deck]

16 Forest

2 strip mine

[*/deck]

minus * =

Card Nicknames [*c=Wrath of God]WoG[*/c] minus the * = WoG

 

Single Player Decks I'm currently playing

Assault of the Minotaurs

Lands
19 Mountain
4 Khalni Garden
1 Thawing Glaciers

 

Artifacts
4 Didgeridoo
4 Gorgon Flail
1 Konda's Banner
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul

 

Spells
4 Assault Strobe

 

Creatures
4 Adaptive Automaton
4 Anaba Ancestor
4 Minotaur Aggressor
4 Talruum Minotaur
4 Gorehorn Minotaurs
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Tahngarth, Talruum Hero

Rapid infenction

Lands

18 Forest
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
4 Glistener Elf
4 Necropede
4 Ichorclaw Myr

 

Spells
4 Rancor
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Griant Growth
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Apostle's Blessing

Use your Illusion

Lands
18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

Creatures
4 Krovikan Mist
3 Phantom Warrior
3 Phantasmal Dragon
4 Lord of the Unreal
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Adaptive Automaton
3 Illusory Angel

Artifacts
2 Swiftfoot Boots

Spells
3 Sleep
4 Ponder
4 Muddle the Mixture

Goblin deck

Land

16 Mountain

4 Goblin Burrows

 

Spells
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Goblin War Strike
2 Brightstone Ritual
2 Quest for the Goblin Lord

 

Creatures
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Balloon Brigade
3 Goblin Guide
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin King
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Look out the Land is Falling

Lands
4 Evoling Wilds
4 Terramorphic Expanse
7 Plains
9 Forest

Spells
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Cultivate
3 Groundswell

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts
2 Adventuring Gear

Creatures
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Ruin Ghost
2 Baloth Woodcrasher
2 Rampaging Baloths
4 Emeria Angel
4 Vinelasher Kudzu

Ula's Deep Sea Drezins

Lands
18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

Creatures
4 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Kraken Hatchling
3 Sage of Epityr
4 Stormtide Leviathan
2 Grozoth
3 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Cursecatcher


Enchantment
4 Quest for Ula's Temple

Spells
4 Preordain
4 Dizzy Spell
4 Clockspinning

Green Beatdown

Lands

18 Forest
4 Treetop Village


Spells
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Rancor
2 Might of Oaks

Creatures
4 Albino Troll
4 Groundbreaker
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Viridian Zealot
4 Pouncing Jaguar
4 Leatherback Baloth
3 River Boa
1 Mire Boa

Elemental Assault

Lands
16 Mountain
4 Teetering Peaks

Spells
4 Lightning bolt
3 Breaking Point
1 Warstorm Surge
4 Brute Force
4 Browbeat
4 Assault Strobe

Creatures
4 Ball Lightning
4 Hell's Thunder
4 Blistering Firecat
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
2 Lightning Serpent

Death from the Sky

Land
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Seaside Haven
5 Plains
5 Island

 

Creatures
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Soulcatcher
4 Judge's Familar
3 Augury Owl
3 Cloudreach Cavalry
3 Pride of Clouds
2 Emeria Angel
2 Aven Mimeomancer
1 God of Awe

 

Spells
4 Soulcatchers' Aerie
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Battle Screech
2 Airborne Raid

Stompy

Lands
18 Forest

Creatures
3 Garruk's Companion
3 Rogue Elephant
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
3 Pouncing Jaguar
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Shinen of Life's Roar

Spells
3 Groundswell
4 Rancor
3 Gather Courage
3 Briar Shield
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Fog

Multi-Player Decks I'm currently Playing

Discard

Lands
22 Swamp

 

Spells
4 Innocent Blood
4 Mutilate
4 Sign in Blood

2 Syphon Mind
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Enchantments
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Bottomless Pit
4 Shrieking Affliction

Artifacts
4 Wheel of Torture
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Bottled Cloister

Everyone Burns

18 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Glacial Chasm
1 Shivan Gorge

Creatures
4 Aether Membrane

Artifacts
3 Sun Droplet

Enchantments
4 Quest for Pure Flame

Spells
4 Sizzle
4 Flame Rift
4 Browbeat
4 Flamebreak
4 Acidic Soil
3 Breaking Point
3 Breath of Darigaaz

Brewing a Storm

Lands
2 Glacial Chasm
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Greypelt Refuge
4 Brushland
4 Forest
5 Plains

Spells
3 Wrath of God
2 Hurricane


Enchantment
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Titania's Song
2 Aura of Silence
2 Kismet
1 Fastbond

 

Artifacts
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Storm Cauldron
4 Ankh of Mishra
2 Sun Droplet
1 Venser's Journal
2 Horn of Greed
4 Iron Maiden
4 Darksteel Ingot

Beast Gone Wild

Lands
3 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Contested Cliffs
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Gruul Turf
1 Yavimaya Hollow
8 Forest

 

Creatures
4 Krosan Warchief
4 Wirewood Savage
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Rampaging Baloths
2 Spearbreaker Behemoth
2 Mold Shambler
2 Terra Stomper
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Gruul Ragebeast
1 Silklash Spider
1 Copperhoof Vorrac
1 Ursapine
1 Molder Slug
1 Protean Hulk

 

Enchantments
4 Wild Growth
2 Warstorm Surge
1 Spidersilk Armor

 

Planeswalker
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Elven Rythym Nation

Lands
14 Forest
2 Wirewood Lodge
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
3 Joraga Warcaller
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Priest of Titania
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Imperious Perfect

 

Spells
1 Asceticism
2 Biorhythm
2 Hurricane
2 Eldrazi Monument

I want to drink your blood

Lands
18 Swamp
4 Leechridden Swamp
2 Cabal Coffers

 

Creatures
4 Pulse Tracker
3 Blood Artist
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Malakir Bloodwitch
3 Falkenrath Noble
2 Bloodline Keeper

 

Enchantments
3 Underworld Connections
1 No Mercy
1 Phyrexian Reclamation

 

Spells
4 Syphon Soul
4 Blood Tithe
3 Exsanguinate

Draw equals Pain

Land
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Deserted Temple
2 Reliquary Tower
3 Island
2 Mountain

 

Creatures
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
2 Jace's Archivist
2 Kami of the Crescent Moon
4 Psychosis Crawler

 

Artifacts
4 Howling Mine
4 Iron Maiden
4 Ebony Owl Netsuke
1 Ivory Tower

 

Spells
4 Winds of Change
4 Molten Psyche
2 Copy Artifact
2 Sunder
2 Cyclonic Rift

Rainbow Sliver

Lands
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Breeding Pool

 

Creatures
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Gemhide Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Homing Sliver
2 Heart Sliver
2 Acidic Sliver
1 Sliver Overlord
1 Essence Sliver
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Brood Sliver
1 Shifting Sliver
1 Fury Sliver

 

Spells
3 Distant Melody
1 Creeping Renaissance

 

Artifacts
2 Door of Destinies

soldier

Lands
22 Plains
2 Emeria, Sky Ruin

 

Creatures
4 Veteran Swordsmith
4 Daru Warchief
3 Field Marshal
3 Knight-Captain of Eos
3 Captain of the Watch
3 Catapult Master
2 Loxodon Gatekeeper
2 Angel of Glory's Rise
2 Stormfront Riders
1 Darien, King of Kjeldor
1 Odric, Master Tactician

 

Spells
4 Skullclamp
2 Eldrazi Monument
1 Mobilization

 

Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Life Test

Lands
16 Plains
4 Kabira Crossroads
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Miren, the Moaing Well

 

Creatures
4 Wall of Reverence
2 Divinity of Pride
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Kami of False Hope

 

Spells
2 Test of Endurance
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Beacon of Immortality
2 Fracturing Gust
3 Congregate
2 Well of Lost Dreams
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Chastise
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Debtors' Knell

 

Planeswalker
1 Ajani Goldmane

 

Thanks for the list.  Try Burning Inquiry in place of either Pyroclasm or vocanic fallout.



... why?
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Well it should work out pretty well with Words of Waste and Geth's Grimoire. Chances are Words won't need the help after a few turns, though. Once their hands are already empty there's not much else for it to do. If the deck needs Pyroclasm though,  it does nothing to fill that slot. That said, I'd like it a lot if the deck had more discard triggers.
IMO i didn't see the need to have two red spells that did the basically same thing.  You mentioned the Burning Inquiry in an earlier post and I would think it would work well with the grimoire.  also don't you think he should have some discard spells in.  Like Unnerve, syphon mind or delirium Skeins to make the grimoire more effective.

I am Red/Green
I am Red/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

 

I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.
 

How to autocard
 

Most important rule in autocarding is make sure you spell the card correctly.

 

Single Card

[*c]Forest[*/c] minus * = Forest

 

Deck

[*deck]

16 Forest

2 strip mine

[*/deck]

minus * =

Card Nicknames [*c=Wrath of God]WoG[*/c] minus the * = WoG

 

Single Player Decks I'm currently playing

Assault of the Minotaurs

Lands
19 Mountain
4 Khalni Garden
1 Thawing Glaciers

 

Artifacts
4 Didgeridoo
4 Gorgon Flail
1 Konda's Banner
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul

 

Spells
4 Assault Strobe

 

Creatures
4 Adaptive Automaton
4 Anaba Ancestor
4 Minotaur Aggressor
4 Talruum Minotaur
4 Gorehorn Minotaurs
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Tahngarth, Talruum Hero

Rapid infenction

Lands

18 Forest
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
4 Glistener Elf
4 Necropede
4 Ichorclaw Myr

 

Spells
4 Rancor
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Griant Growth
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Apostle's Blessing

Use your Illusion

Lands
18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

Creatures
4 Krovikan Mist
3 Phantom Warrior
3 Phantasmal Dragon
4 Lord of the Unreal
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Adaptive Automaton
3 Illusory Angel

Artifacts
2 Swiftfoot Boots

Spells
3 Sleep
4 Ponder
4 Muddle the Mixture

Goblin deck

Land

16 Mountain

4 Goblin Burrows

 

Spells
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Goblin War Strike
2 Brightstone Ritual
2 Quest for the Goblin Lord

 

Creatures
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Balloon Brigade
3 Goblin Guide
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin King
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Look out the Land is Falling

Lands
4 Evoling Wilds
4 Terramorphic Expanse
7 Plains
9 Forest

Spells
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Cultivate
3 Groundswell

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts
2 Adventuring Gear

Creatures
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Ruin Ghost
2 Baloth Woodcrasher
2 Rampaging Baloths
4 Emeria Angel
4 Vinelasher Kudzu

Ula's Deep Sea Drezins

Lands
18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

Creatures
4 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Kraken Hatchling
3 Sage of Epityr
4 Stormtide Leviathan
2 Grozoth
3 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Cursecatcher


Enchantment
4 Quest for Ula's Temple

Spells
4 Preordain
4 Dizzy Spell
4 Clockspinning

Green Beatdown

Lands

18 Forest
4 Treetop Village


Spells
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Rancor
2 Might of Oaks

Creatures
4 Albino Troll
4 Groundbreaker
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Viridian Zealot
4 Pouncing Jaguar
4 Leatherback Baloth
3 River Boa
1 Mire Boa

Elemental Assault

Lands
16 Mountain
4 Teetering Peaks

Spells
4 Lightning bolt
3 Breaking Point
1 Warstorm Surge
4 Brute Force
4 Browbeat
4 Assault Strobe

Creatures
4 Ball Lightning
4 Hell's Thunder
4 Blistering Firecat
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
2 Lightning Serpent

Death from the Sky

Land
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Seaside Haven
5 Plains
5 Island

 

Creatures
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Soulcatcher
4 Judge's Familar
3 Augury Owl
3 Cloudreach Cavalry
3 Pride of Clouds
2 Emeria Angel
2 Aven Mimeomancer
1 God of Awe

 

Spells
4 Soulcatchers' Aerie
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Battle Screech
2 Airborne Raid

Stompy

Lands
18 Forest

Creatures
3 Garruk's Companion
3 Rogue Elephant
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
3 Pouncing Jaguar
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Shinen of Life's Roar

Spells
3 Groundswell
4 Rancor
3 Gather Courage
3 Briar Shield
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Fog

Multi-Player Decks I'm currently Playing

Discard

Lands
22 Swamp

 

Spells
4 Innocent Blood
4 Mutilate
4 Sign in Blood

2 Syphon Mind
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Enchantments
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Bottomless Pit
4 Shrieking Affliction

Artifacts
4 Wheel of Torture
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Bottled Cloister

Everyone Burns

18 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Glacial Chasm
1 Shivan Gorge

Creatures
4 Aether Membrane

Artifacts
3 Sun Droplet

Enchantments
4 Quest for Pure Flame

Spells
4 Sizzle
4 Flame Rift
4 Browbeat
4 Flamebreak
4 Acidic Soil
3 Breaking Point
3 Breath of Darigaaz

Brewing a Storm

Lands
2 Glacial Chasm
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Greypelt Refuge
4 Brushland
4 Forest
5 Plains

Spells
3 Wrath of God
2 Hurricane


Enchantment
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Titania's Song
2 Aura of Silence
2 Kismet
1 Fastbond

 

Artifacts
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Storm Cauldron
4 Ankh of Mishra
2 Sun Droplet
1 Venser's Journal
2 Horn of Greed
4 Iron Maiden
4 Darksteel Ingot

Beast Gone Wild

Lands
3 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Contested Cliffs
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Gruul Turf
1 Yavimaya Hollow
8 Forest

 

Creatures
4 Krosan Warchief
4 Wirewood Savage
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Rampaging Baloths
2 Spearbreaker Behemoth
2 Mold Shambler
2 Terra Stomper
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Gruul Ragebeast
1 Silklash Spider
1 Copperhoof Vorrac
1 Ursapine
1 Molder Slug
1 Protean Hulk

 

Enchantments
4 Wild Growth
2 Warstorm Surge
1 Spidersilk Armor

 

Planeswalker
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Elven Rythym Nation

Lands
14 Forest
2 Wirewood Lodge
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
3 Joraga Warcaller
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Priest of Titania
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Imperious Perfect

 

Spells
1 Asceticism
2 Biorhythm
2 Hurricane
2 Eldrazi Monument

I want to drink your blood

Lands
18 Swamp
4 Leechridden Swamp
2 Cabal Coffers

 

Creatures
4 Pulse Tracker
3 Blood Artist
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Malakir Bloodwitch
3 Falkenrath Noble
2 Bloodline Keeper

 

Enchantments
3 Underworld Connections
1 No Mercy
1 Phyrexian Reclamation

 

Spells
4 Syphon Soul
4 Blood Tithe
3 Exsanguinate

Draw equals Pain

Land
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Deserted Temple
2 Reliquary Tower
3 Island
2 Mountain

 

Creatures
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
2 Jace's Archivist
2 Kami of the Crescent Moon
4 Psychosis Crawler

 

Artifacts
4 Howling Mine
4 Iron Maiden
4 Ebony Owl Netsuke
1 Ivory Tower

 

Spells
4 Winds of Change
4 Molten Psyche
2 Copy Artifact
2 Sunder
2 Cyclonic Rift

Rainbow Sliver

Lands
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Breeding Pool

 

Creatures
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Gemhide Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Homing Sliver
2 Heart Sliver
2 Acidic Sliver
1 Sliver Overlord
1 Essence Sliver
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Brood Sliver
1 Shifting Sliver
1 Fury Sliver

 

Spells
3 Distant Melody
1 Creeping Renaissance

 

Artifacts
2 Door of Destinies

soldier

Lands
22 Plains
2 Emeria, Sky Ruin

 

Creatures
4 Veteran Swordsmith
4 Daru Warchief
3 Field Marshal
3 Knight-Captain of Eos
3 Captain of the Watch
3 Catapult Master
2 Loxodon Gatekeeper
2 Angel of Glory's Rise
2 Stormfront Riders
1 Darien, King of Kjeldor
1 Odric, Master Tactician

 

Spells
4 Skullclamp
2 Eldrazi Monument
1 Mobilization

 

Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Life Test

Lands
16 Plains
4 Kabira Crossroads
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Miren, the Moaing Well

 

Creatures
4 Wall of Reverence
2 Divinity of Pride
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Kami of False Hope

 

Spells
2 Test of Endurance
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Beacon of Immortality
2 Fracturing Gust
3 Congregate
2 Well of Lost Dreams
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Chastise
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Debtors' Knell

 

Planeswalker
1 Ajani Goldmane

 

Not going to lie, I missed the fact that it's a pretty good card to pair with WoW and GG. I've been off my game these past few days. Making some pretty serious oversights. It's these Red cards man, they get me every time. I can't get anything about them right.

Anyways, I still have a point to make. I don't play with WoW + GG (Words + Grimoire) any more. That's why you never see me throw a decklist that has it. I suggest it, because it's ****ing stupid when it works, but I won't hide the fact that it's still a 2 card combo. As such, it's always felt a little too slow and vulnerable, and it relied on having me draw the right cards at the right time. The OP complained about consistency, well, he's clearly played with the cards then. Now, where things really get bad is if you throw more cards into that combo. Now you have Inquiry which is only good if you have WoW + GG (ok, that's not true, but you get the idea). Your conditional, inconsistent deck just got more conditional and inconsistent. Maybe I've been going about this the wrong way. I mean, why do we need discard in a deck with a combo that locks people at 0 cards? Aren't those just stone dead draws when things are going well? Why not play a deck with some solid tutors/draw, play your defense and removal, and tutor for the combo to lock people at 0 cards? From there we can burn people out with Exsanguinate, Earthquake, Wheel of Torture, whatever. We don't want random discard, we just want our combo, right? So, do we just cut it all out (ok, Syphon Mind is the freak exception obviously) to get some more tutors/draw spells in here?

Thoughts?
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Really the only person who can answer that is Slave.  I would think that a mp r/b discard deck would be harder to make than a mono black discard.  You have to make sure you have the mana right for the r/b to make it work. 

No I don't think your off game.  Everyone once in awhile you will have a few off days.  Nothing wrong with that your only human.  What I think in this case your were reading what slave was saying on every change he would make and you were trying to make it work more than it would.    Your head was saying yeah i make this work in r/b but i'm sure your gut was saying H@#$ No this won't work it should be mono black.

P.S.  I do think your right though he may need more tutor's or card drawing get this to work the way he wants it.

I am Red/Green
I am Red/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

 

I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.
 

How to autocard
 

Most important rule in autocarding is make sure you spell the card correctly.

 

Single Card

[*c]Forest[*/c] minus * = Forest

 

Deck

[*deck]

16 Forest

2 strip mine

[*/deck]

minus * =

Card Nicknames [*c=Wrath of God]WoG[*/c] minus the * = WoG

 

Single Player Decks I'm currently playing

Assault of the Minotaurs

Lands
19 Mountain
4 Khalni Garden
1 Thawing Glaciers

 

Artifacts
4 Didgeridoo
4 Gorgon Flail
1 Konda's Banner
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul

 

Spells
4 Assault Strobe

 

Creatures
4 Adaptive Automaton
4 Anaba Ancestor
4 Minotaur Aggressor
4 Talruum Minotaur
4 Gorehorn Minotaurs
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Tahngarth, Talruum Hero

Rapid infenction

Lands

18 Forest
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
4 Glistener Elf
4 Necropede
4 Ichorclaw Myr

 

Spells
4 Rancor
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Griant Growth
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Apostle's Blessing

Use your Illusion

Lands
18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

Creatures
4 Krovikan Mist
3 Phantom Warrior
3 Phantasmal Dragon
4 Lord of the Unreal
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Adaptive Automaton
3 Illusory Angel

Artifacts
2 Swiftfoot Boots

Spells
3 Sleep
4 Ponder
4 Muddle the Mixture

Goblin deck

Land

16 Mountain

4 Goblin Burrows

 

Spells
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Goblin War Strike
2 Brightstone Ritual
2 Quest for the Goblin Lord

 

Creatures
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Balloon Brigade
3 Goblin Guide
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin King
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Look out the Land is Falling

Lands
4 Evoling Wilds
4 Terramorphic Expanse
7 Plains
9 Forest

Spells
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Cultivate
3 Groundswell

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts
2 Adventuring Gear

Creatures
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Ruin Ghost
2 Baloth Woodcrasher
2 Rampaging Baloths
4 Emeria Angel
4 Vinelasher Kudzu

Ula's Deep Sea Drezins

Lands
18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

Creatures
4 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Kraken Hatchling
3 Sage of Epityr
4 Stormtide Leviathan
2 Grozoth
3 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Cursecatcher


Enchantment
4 Quest for Ula's Temple

Spells
4 Preordain
4 Dizzy Spell
4 Clockspinning

Green Beatdown

Lands

18 Forest
4 Treetop Village


Spells
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Rancor
2 Might of Oaks

Creatures
4 Albino Troll
4 Groundbreaker
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Viridian Zealot
4 Pouncing Jaguar
4 Leatherback Baloth
3 River Boa
1 Mire Boa

Elemental Assault

Lands
16 Mountain
4 Teetering Peaks

Spells
4 Lightning bolt
3 Breaking Point
1 Warstorm Surge
4 Brute Force
4 Browbeat
4 Assault Strobe

Creatures
4 Ball Lightning
4 Hell's Thunder
4 Blistering Firecat
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Spark Elemental
2 Lightning Serpent

Death from the Sky

Land
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Seaside Haven
5 Plains
5 Island

 

Creatures
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Soulcatcher
4 Judge's Familar
3 Augury Owl
3 Cloudreach Cavalry
3 Pride of Clouds
2 Emeria Angel
2 Aven Mimeomancer
1 God of Awe

 

Spells
4 Soulcatchers' Aerie
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Battle Screech
2 Airborne Raid

Stompy

Lands
18 Forest

Creatures
3 Garruk's Companion
3 Rogue Elephant
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
3 Pouncing Jaguar
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Shinen of Life's Roar

Spells
3 Groundswell
4 Rancor
3 Gather Courage
3 Briar Shield
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Fog

Multi-Player Decks I'm currently Playing

Discard

Lands
22 Swamp

 

Spells
4 Innocent Blood
4 Mutilate
4 Sign in Blood

2 Syphon Mind
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Enchantments
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Bottomless Pit
4 Shrieking Affliction

Artifacts
4 Wheel of Torture
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Bottled Cloister

Everyone Burns

18 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Glacial Chasm
1 Shivan Gorge

Creatures
4 Aether Membrane

Artifacts
3 Sun Droplet

Enchantments
4 Quest for Pure Flame

Spells
4 Sizzle
4 Flame Rift
4 Browbeat
4 Flamebreak
4 Acidic Soil
3 Breaking Point
3 Breath of Darigaaz

Brewing a Storm

Lands
2 Glacial Chasm
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Greypelt Refuge
4 Brushland
4 Forest
5 Plains

Spells
3 Wrath of God
2 Hurricane


Enchantment
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Titania's Song
2 Aura of Silence
2 Kismet
1 Fastbond

 

Artifacts
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Storm Cauldron
4 Ankh of Mishra
2 Sun Droplet
1 Venser's Journal
2 Horn of Greed
4 Iron Maiden
4 Darksteel Ingot

Beast Gone Wild

Lands
3 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Contested Cliffs
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Gruul Turf
1 Yavimaya Hollow
8 Forest

 

Creatures
4 Krosan Warchief
4 Wirewood Savage
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Rampaging Baloths
2 Spearbreaker Behemoth
2 Mold Shambler
2 Terra Stomper
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Gruul Ragebeast
1 Silklash Spider
1 Copperhoof Vorrac
1 Ursapine
1 Molder Slug
1 Protean Hulk

 

Enchantments
4 Wild Growth
2 Warstorm Surge
1 Spidersilk Armor

 

Planeswalker
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Elven Rythym Nation

Lands
14 Forest
2 Wirewood Lodge
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
3 Joraga Warcaller
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Priest of Titania
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Imperious Perfect

 

Spells
1 Asceticism
2 Biorhythm
2 Hurricane
2 Eldrazi Monument

I want to drink your blood

Lands
18 Swamp
4 Leechridden Swamp
2 Cabal Coffers

 

Creatures
4 Pulse Tracker
3 Blood Artist
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Malakir Bloodwitch
3 Falkenrath Noble
2 Bloodline Keeper

 

Enchantments
3 Underworld Connections
1 No Mercy
1 Phyrexian Reclamation

 

Spells
4 Syphon Soul
4 Blood Tithe
3 Exsanguinate

Draw equals Pain

Land
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Deserted Temple
2 Reliquary Tower
3 Island
2 Mountain

 

Creatures
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
2 Jace's Archivist
2 Kami of the Crescent Moon
4 Psychosis Crawler

 

Artifacts
4 Howling Mine
4 Iron Maiden
4 Ebony Owl Netsuke
1 Ivory Tower

 

Spells
4 Winds of Change
4 Molten Psyche
2 Copy Artifact
2 Sunder
2 Cyclonic Rift

Rainbow Sliver

Lands
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Breeding Pool

 

Creatures
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Gemhide Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Homing Sliver
2 Heart Sliver
2 Acidic Sliver
1 Sliver Overlord
1 Essence Sliver
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Brood Sliver
1 Shifting Sliver
1 Fury Sliver

 

Spells
3 Distant Melody
1 Creeping Renaissance

 

Artifacts
2 Door of Destinies

soldier

Lands
22 Plains
2 Emeria, Sky Ruin

 

Creatures
4 Veteran Swordsmith
4 Daru Warchief
3 Field Marshal
3 Knight-Captain of Eos
3 Captain of the Watch
3 Catapult Master
2 Loxodon Gatekeeper
2 Angel of Glory's Rise
2 Stormfront Riders
1 Darien, King of Kjeldor
1 Odric, Master Tactician

 

Spells
4 Skullclamp
2 Eldrazi Monument
1 Mobilization

 

Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Life Test

Lands
16 Plains
4 Kabira Crossroads
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Miren, the Moaing Well

 

Creatures
4 Wall of Reverence
2 Divinity of Pride
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Kami of False Hope

 

Spells
2 Test of Endurance
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Beacon of Immortality
2 Fracturing Gust
3 Congregate
2 Well of Lost Dreams
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Chastise
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Debtors' Knell

 

Planeswalker
1 Ajani Goldmane

 

Nah, you're giving me too much credit. I looked at Burning inquiry, looked at his deck, and my head registered that exactly 0 cards benefited from him either drawing or discarding cards, DESPITE THE FACT that WoW + GG was my suggestion to begin with. I legitimately thought that you suggested the (arguably) worst possible card to add to his deck (more or less). Needless to say, that wasn't the case, as I just completely overlooked some very obvious interactions.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Burning Inquiry?   Just not sure it has much use.
I WANT to like it, but too many times it ends up being a dead card in my hand because I still have others I don't wanna discard, bearing in mind a Necrogen Mists may be in play too.
  With Grimoire & Words out, Inquiry can be great to make sure I draw the cards I want and make opponents discard cheaply, but my main problem is surviving long enough to get my combo. If I can get my combo out early, yeah it would be useful, but quite situational at best.

By turn 5 I find most people only have a few cards in hand unless they've got some big blue/green goin on, so I've been finding the discard spells to be fodder for Necrogen Mists and friends.  Many of the guys I play LOOoooooooooooVE their aggro style decks (goblins/illusions etc) which quite often gang-**** an annoying discard/shenanigan deck out of the game by turn 3 to 5.

Having combo pieces so valuable, Delirium Skeins would also be fairly conditional. 
Other than the combo pieces, I've got 6 other cards that give turn based discard with the Wheel, not too shabby, and it means I have more space for nuking the board and keeping myself alive long enough to get the chasm in play.
  Thing is, this decklist has quite a few 3 & 4-drops, so putting cards like Skeins will only make it harder to play the Necrogen Mists early without hurting my own strategy, and late game it'll be a dead card - I'd much rather have a sweep up my sleeve.
I'm kinda aiming to getting my combo firing by turn 5, so everyone has 0 cards from then on.  As long as I can nuke anything that gets on the board before that........
 
Diabolic Tutor will go up to four. 

Volcanic Fallout is a lock, uncounterable is my fave rules text ever. 
 The reason I've included Pyroclasm (Meekstone) is to try and reliably get a board sweep within my first 3 turns.  This card is not a lock at all, so I may drop it to two and/or sub it for Slagstorm/Black Sun's Zenith or put in a couple of something else. 

Still considering Death Pits of Rath/Painful Quandary/Quest of the Nihil Stone & Noetic Scales.
Although Deathpits is nice, I don't really have enough creatures or effects of the Circle of Flame-type to make it a certain starter....thoughts here?
 
RE: Exsanguinate - after having a couple of 6+ of these go off, I have to include a few of these. Once chasm is out this card is ****.