Aegis of Ensnarement house rule and question.

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I'll cut to the chase. Would it be out of line to include a solid bop to the head ala Aegis of Assault? I'm well aware this would dwarf the current assault build in usefulness, but strictly on a balance level, comparing it to other defenders, and not other builds of the Swordmage, would this be in line with most defenders? Personally, I believe it would. The Aegis of Ensnarement is such a fun concept, but it falls lacking so strongly. It doesn't punish. Like, not even a little bit. Ooh, combat advantage for less than a round! Riviting! And what's this? I can take a feat to add a SLOW!? Brilliant! It just doesn't seem to do any defending, so my DM and I are hoping to give it the marked target an actual reason to hesitate attacking someone else, recieving it's teleport, and then shift charging while presumably giving the Swordmage the middle finger.
I think the teleport pull plus a normal basic attack would be too good. It outweighs what e.g. a Warden can do to a creature transgressing the mark.

Falcon's Mark and Fox's Feint are useful powers. Don't underestimate what they add to the build.

If I were upgrading the Aegis of Ensnarement I might consider changing the action type to Opportunity, so that multiple marks can be made effective. Or perhaps granting the Grasping Ensnarement for free.

Partly it's the way you play it . . . an Ensnaring swordmage, like a Shielding one, is probably most effective marking one or more enemies and then heading away, forcing enemies to pursue or be dragged into a trap. Also, the utility of the build varies depending on how much it works with other team members.

My DM and I talked about it, and with two other players (the swordmage in question and an impartial player not even participating). The consensus is to have the attack roll take place *before* the teleport. If you miss, you don't get the teleport or damage. Would that make it a bit better?
My DM and I talked about it, and with two other players (the swordmage in question and an impartial player not even participating). The consensus is to have the attack roll take place *before* the teleport. If you miss, you don't get the teleport or damage. Would that make it a bit better?



Helps quite a bit, but I'm still uneasy about it.

I'm out-voted from your discussion, and have no special claims to know all about D&D game design and balance across all the classes.

One caveat would allow you to not worry too much - if the Swordmage is the team's only defender, or the other one is basic and optimised heavy hitter (a Dwarf Knight?), then there might be some debate about it as a general rule, but I'm sure it would work fine around your table. What you probably want to avoid is comparisons between the distant pull effect of the Swordmage compared to another defender who is more limited on range for punishments, yet doesn't get an obvious advantage such as better damage.

Personally I feel that Aegis of Ensnarement, while relatively weak in terms of defending capability in that on its own the worst it could do is enemy repositioning after it harms your ally, has the feat support needed to make it threatening enough (forcing an enemy into a very unfavorable position, with you having combat advantage and deal extra damage on a hit), and when done right -- namely, by pulling away into a position where the teleport would be to its disadvantage -- can be a decent secondary defender.

With that said, if I were to suggest a "fix" for the said Aegis, I'd have it trigger on an attack, regardless of hit or miss.  That way, you punish it for trying to harm your allies (like how Divine Challenge harms an enemy targeting an ally, even if the attack misses), and you're likely going to punish it for trying to harm you in a similar manner as Aegis of Shielding.

My train of thought regarding the three types of Aegis are as follows:

* Shielding: most defensive-oriented, leader secondary, controller tertiary, defend by reducing ally damage.
* Assault: most offense-oriented, striker secondary, defend by retalition.
* Ensnarement: most tactics-oriented, controller secondary, striker tertiary, defend by forcing the enemy into unfavorable circumstances (e.g. next to a defender/striker like the Berzerker, Slayer or Fighter... or into hazardous terrain [causes the creature to make a saving throw to prevent the teleport, but failing the save can have hilarious effects like falling into a pit ]).
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57047238 wrote:
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Personally I feel that Aegis of Ensnarement, while relatively weak in terms of defending capability in that on its own the worst it could do is enemy repositioning after it harms your ally, has the feat support needed to make it threatening enough (forcing an enemy into a very unfavorable position, with you having combat advantage and deal extra damage on a hit), and when done right -- namely, by pulling away into a position where the teleport would be to its disadvantage -- can be a decent secondary defender.

With that said, if I were to suggest a "fix" for the said Aegis, I'd have it trigger on an attack, regardless of hit or miss.  That way, you punish it for trying to harm your allies (like how Divine Challenge harms an enemy targeting an ally, even if the attack misses), and you're likely going to punish it for trying to harm you in a similar manner as Aegis of Shielding.

My train of thought regarding the three types of Aegis are as follows:

* Shielding: most defensive-oriented, leader secondary, controller tertiary, defend by reducing ally damage.
* Assault: most offense-oriented, striker secondary, defend by retalition.
* Ensnarement: most tactics-oriented, controller secondary, striker tertiary, defend by forcing the enemy into unfavorable circumstances (e.g. next to a defender/striker like the Berzerker, Slayer or Fighter... or into hazardous terrain [causes the creature to make a saving throw to prevent the teleport, but failing the save can have hilarious effects like falling into a pit ]).



I can certainly see that. The problem here is our Swordmage is going to be the primary defender. She likes the flavor, and it fits her character concept very well, but she find shielding to be boring (reletively little interaction on her part), and doesn't like the idea of losing her positioning with assault. She likes the concept of ensnaring the best, but doesn't think it will be enough to do the defending by herself. But the way you put it I sort of want to play an ensnaring swordmage in a party with an existing defender in it. That sounds like a lot of fun to be honest. :D

Edit: I just looked up that feat. The one that increases damage after Aegis use. Paragon? Really? That should be a heroic feat. The build is lacking most in heroic. At least in paragon you have double aegis and such to help round it out. The build has practically nothing before then though. 
I can certainly see that. The problem here is our Swordmage is going to be the primary defender. She likes the flavor, and it fits her character concept very well, but she find shielding to be boring (reletively little interaction on her part), and doesn't like the idea of losing her positioning with assault. She likes the concept of ensnaring the best, but doesn't think it will be enough to do the defending by herself. But the way you put it I sort of want to play an ensnaring swordmage in a party with an existing defender in it. That sounds like a lot of fun to be honest. :D

Edit: I just looked up that feat. The one that increases damage after Aegis use. Paragon? Really? That should be a heroic feat. The build is lacking most in heroic. At least in paragon you have double aegis and such to help round it out. The build has practically nothing before then though. 

Feel free to make it a heroic tier feat Personally I think it should be a heroic tier feat myself :p However, the heroic tier feat for Ensnarement -- the one that causes the teleported target to be slowed -- combined with that Swordmage power that reduces movement speed, should effectively immobilize creatures she's ensared even with 18 INT and 14 CON [before racial modifiers are slipped in] ;) This should make it pretty interesting as an isolation/lockdown defender who will always find a way for her quarry to stay next to her.
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57047238 wrote:
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
I haven't read the whole thread:

What about making the teleport on the trigger "An enemy under your aegis TARGETS an ally blablablabl", so that the teleport happens BEFORE the hit. Then you're preventing more damage than the shielding swordmage.

OR you just make an implement attack "Int modifier damage on hit, and the target is slowed" right after the teleport. That should do the trick.


Edit:
Don't know much about the swordmage but:

Having it trigger on a hit or a miss, then with the feat attached to it should make it just right. If not, make a single-target swordburst-ish attack against the target after the teleport but with only INT damage instead of the feat. 

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I haven't read the whole thread:

What about making the teleport on the trigger "An enemy under your aegis TARGETS an ally blablablabl", so that the teleport happens BEFORE the hit. Then you're preventing more damage than the shielding swordmage.

OR you just make an implement attack "Int modifier damage on hit, and the target is slowed" right after the teleport. That should do the trick.


Edit:
Don't know much about the swordmage but:

Having it trigger on a hit or a miss, then with the feat attached to it should make it just right. If not, make a single-target swordburst-ish attack against the target after the teleport but with only INT damage instead of the feat. 

1. Teleporting an enemy before he hits/damages his target has been discussed before, and just like the pre-errata/clarification of a feat that lets you slide a Divine Challenged opponent before that opponent resolves his attack, it was deemed too powerful, even when compared to Combat Challenge, which requires feat and equipment investment to attain the same result (and even then only works against adjacent enemies).

2. The slowed effect you mentioned is duplicative of an Ensnaring Swordmage feat (admittedly something that should've been baked into the feature).
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57047238 wrote:
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
Slightly off-topic, but since we have an aegis that teleports you and another that teleports the triggering enemy, has anyone considered a homebrewed aegis that teleports the ally who was attacked (as an immediate reaction, of course)?