Condition awareness?

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Continuing a discussion from the 'ask a simple question' thread:
63341907 wrote:
56786428 wrote:
Wait... are you saying that creatures do not know when they are marked by a fighter? I don't believe (PHB p.57) "Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed" was intended to exclude all non-powers, and I'm absolutely positive the writers did not intend for a creature to not know when they are marked.

I actually meant that "Marked" was not inherently the result of a power, but can you find a rule which says they are aware...? If they were aware generally, powers wouldn't need that rule. If they are not aware generally, powers would need that rule. Powers have that rule. The seperation of powers from other game elements is intentional so that certain features don't interact with other things (Walk Among the Fey+Virtue of Cunning being the first example I can think of off-hand). The fact that it results in an unintentional buff for some of those features is probably something the writers didn't intend... but is still RAW.

There isn't even a rule that says you're aware of Conditions placed on you. Which would include Marked, but still not Curse or Quarry. That would probably be the easiest way to errata it, add a line to the Conditions section of the RC that states creatures are aware of Conditions on them.

To summarize:
I am contending that the above PHB p.57 quote (and indeed, much of the power rules in general, like targeting) were not intended to exclude non-power effects like traps, terrain, weather, a fighter's mark, etc., and that PC's would be aware of Conditions on them even if they were imposed by such things.

However, I would like hear viewpoints from all sides.
I agree with you, that that is the intention, but that isn't how it is worded.  That is, however, how I play it.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.

IMHO the monster knows that it has been marked, but knows nothing else. A fighters punishments are all completly separate from the mark itself.


With a swordmage or paladin the monster would know both that it has been marked and what happens when it violates the mark, as in this case both are parts of the same power

May as well use the most recent version. RC pg. 90.

"A conscious creature affected by a power knows what a power has done to it, regardless of the power's type."

Traps have powers. Basically all official terrain and weather are formatted as powers where they actually inflict something or have specific rules governing knowledge (usually a check).

In order to have a reasonable RAW argument you'd need to find a rule that says people are aware of Conditions on them. There is no such rule. What was "intended" is not relevant to RAW.
A fighters punishments are all completly separate from the mark itself.

Agreed: it was demonstrated to me how the fighter's mark differs from the Paladin's in this respect (that part at least is a different, resolved topic).

There is a reasonable argument that, much like Mark of Storm adds a slide directly the power you hit with, Fighter marking mechanic modifies attack powers you use to basically have a line "Effect: You may mark the target." So you're aware you are Marked because the power marked you. Would still leave the punishment mechanic separate.

But then you get to Wardens who have no such argument, they clearly mark purely via a class feature. Would actually be a reasonable buff for Wardens.
all official terrain and weather are formatted as powers where they actually inflict something

The fantastic terrain on DMG p.67-68 are not formatted as powers. Same with terrain in adventures, like the terrain that immobilizes you on DMG p.212 & 215 (more examples from say, the Draconomicon: p.107, 117, 127, 136, 143 & 155)

all official terrain and weather are formatted as powers where they actually inflict something

The fantastic terrain on DMG p.67-68 are not formatted as powers. Same with terrain in adventures, like the terrain that immobilizes you on DMG p.212 & 215 (more examples from say, the Draconomicon: p.107, 117, 127, 136, 143 & 155)


And in many cases the trick for the terrain is specifically that you're not aware of it. Lodestone isn't very useful if you know you can shift over one and not take the -2 for ranged LoS going through it. Hence the qualifier "Where they actually inflict something." Not much terrain inflicts a condition.
in many cases the trick for the terrain is specifically that you're not aware of it.

Are you saying that a character is unaware when he has had the immobilized condition placed on him by the green sludge pools in Kobold hall (DMG p.212)?

Not much terrain inflicts a condition.

I mentioned six examples just from the Draconomicon (and I can find more).
in many cases the trick for the terrain is specifically that you're not aware of it.

Are you saying that a character is unaware when he has had the immobilized condition placed on him by the green sludge pools in Kobold hall (DMG p.212)?

Not much terrain inflicts a condition.

I mentioned six examples just from the Draconomicon (and I can find more).



Those terrains are from pre-Essentials books.  They weren't formatting them as powers then, so they wouldn't show up as powers in those books.  Duh.

If a terrain inflicts Immobilize on a target, that target certainly knows that it is immobilized.  It might not know what immobilized it or or why it was immobilized, but it can make perception, insight, nature, etc. checks to figure that part out.  If you stick your hand on poison ivy and start itching, you know you are itching but you don't know why, until you go back and examine the place your put your hand and discover that it was poison ivy.   
Traps have powers. Basically all official terrain and weather are formatted as powers where they actually inflict something

fwiw: RC p.229 says "Conditions are states imposed on creatures by various effects, including powers, traps, and the environment."

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