Daggermaster NV

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Looking for a Redonkulous Striker

Our group just hit Paragon and I'm looking for a new Striker that can keep up with the group's munchkin Daggermaster who hits everything on a 4 and blows them up with crits.

Some parameters:
Highly accurate (my dice hate me)
Not charged focused and no twin strike (have lower level versions of these already)
LFR legal

Whaddya say CharOp? Got anything that can help me keep up with that Daggermaster?
You could try a rogue daggermaster....  

Or if your looking for something different.  Runepriest|Avenger/Hammer of Vengence.  Gets 2 attacks, and can heal.

After that.  I suggest a stealth build, like executioner|warlock/evermeet warlock, or even a stealth defender.  Hiding next to someone (or above with the pixie) will often get you an extra attack.  Defener's punishment can be considered your striker feature.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Or be a Warlord and use the Rogue as your striker feature.

Seriously though, it would help to have an idea of how optimized his Rogue is overall. Does me make good use of minor action to maximize his damage? Matching a light to moderately optimized rogue with your constraints is going to be a heck of a lot easier than matching a heavily optimized rogue.

Also are you looking to match at-will DPR or nova potential? 
Thanks for your replies.

We're a fairly power gamery group so my friend's rogue is pretty heavily optimized. He's got a least one minor encounter (Low Slash) and I think another one now from Daggermaster. Brutal rogue, d8 sneak, Viscious dagger(s), and 2 Weapon Opening...

It may be that I can't catch him without charging or twin strike. (Another friend's girlfriend has a charger so I don't really want to steal her thunder.)

I do have a Lazylord to try, but the rogue's brother is becoming more available and he's got a cleric so...

My other thought is that the rogue is fairly squishy so maybe I could go another way and do something like Mellored's unkillable avenger. I'm not very familiar with Avengers. Is there something specific about them for the build to work? Would it also work with something like executioner or vampire? (for variety's sake since we don't have either of those in our playgroup)

I'll check out the other two builds Mellored posted. They look interesting too.
There are only three ways of striking in 4e effectively. Iterative damage (which is basically broken if optimized around), multi-attacking, and charging. You nixed two of those, so figure out a zone abuse build and have fun. Probably Genasi Mage.
My other thought is that the rogue is fairly squishy so maybe I could go another way and do something like Mellored's unkillable avenger. I'm not very familiar with Avengers. Is there something specific about them for the build to work? Would it also work with something like executioner or vampire? (for variety's sake since we don't have either of those in our playgroup)

The unkillable avenger is a bit outdated.  If i was gunna rebuild her, it'd probably be a half-elf with twin-strike.

Anyways, the idea is to get your death saves up to +19(ish) so you spend a surge whenever you need it.  Ranger's Horizon Walker PP is the easiest way to do this, giving you +Wis to death saving throws.  Revenant (+ daze saves (superior will)) makes it so you don't loose (many) actions.  

Avenger's are Wis based, and can be sub-defenders, so that's why i picked them.  You also benifit from any "while bloodied" (battlecrazed) and "while below 0" (restless dead, stormhawk vengence).

It really breaks the game when you combo with belt of brokeness, ghostly vitality, and raven consort. Which truely prevent you from dying.  Then dump the rest into offense.


There are only three ways of superior striking in 4e effectively. Iterative damage (which is basically broken if optimized around), multi-attacking, and charging. You nixed two of those, so figure out a zone abuse build and have fun. Probably Genasi Mage.



Most strikers work fine without those in most homegames.  Optimized games however, you do want one of those.  

Also note that twin-strike isn't the only way of getting multi-attacks (KAM, HoV, stealth).  Just among the easier.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

There are only three ways of superior striking in 4e effectively. Iterative damage (which is basically broken if optimized around), multi-attacking, and charging. You nixed two of those, so figure out a zone abuse build and have fun. Probably Genasi Mage.



Most strikers work fine without those in most homegames.  Optimized games however, you do want one of those.



OP mentioned wanting to outdo a Daggermaster Scoundrel. Safe to assume that he does, in fact, want superior striking.

mellored's advice here is pretty good. Avengers often look at charge op or poaching Twin Strike, but they can still put up pretty nice damage through normal crit-fishing, and they play quite differently than most other strikers.
Let him do single target, go aoe doom (thunder-voker, psychic psion, various sorcerers, genasi mage).  You won't be competing directly, and he'll start one shotting everything you hit previously.  Of those, I would go with the Tiefling Psion myself (but that's simply because I think it seems different enough that it might bring something else to your group, while still doing reasonable damage).
Half Elf Avenger (Hammer of Vengeance PP) with Word of Diminishment dilettante to initiate the rune state works fantastically well. Throw on censure of unity (you'll be next to party members anyhow, might as well get extra damage for it), add permafrost, Pelor's Sun Blessing (if your DM is okay with equipping boons) and you've got some real striking chops. Mix in a solid theme (Sohei is excellent) and some avenger minor action attacks, and you'll have one of the most complete striker packages in the game. You'll be using all of your actions every round (even a rogue has a tough time saying that), you'll have an explosive nova, and be doing more dpr than your typical TWF ranger or KAM fighter. It's my striker of choice. 
Hmm having trouble seeing that one. Can your ellaborate pls?
HoV is a invoker PP that works well with crits so that I understand. Using the str based WoD for short term vulnerability seems odd, but I guess you are using adept dilitante to use wis? but that would use up the MC option no?

Ohh I see 2 PPs with the same name! Heh. Got it then thx =)

Hmm doesnt solve the str and con based PP though?
Critvengers can be great fun.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Hmm having trouble seeing that one. Can your ellaborate pls?
HoV is a invoker PP that works well with crits so that I understand. Using the str based WoD for short term vulnerability seems odd, but I guess you are using adept dilitante to use wis? but that would use up the MC option no?

Ohh I see 2 PPs with the same name! Heh. Got it then thx =)

Hmm doesnt solve the str and con based PP though?

Half-elfs have a feat to make their dillitante Wis based.  Though i still think hybrid is slightly better.

If you go serene, you can still grab unity, but you also get a heal, and alot of THP for your troubles, as well as some choice runepriest utilities (rune of the astral winds helps ensures an oath bonus, and a great source of exta attacks with agile opportunist).

If you go defiant, you get some extra AC/ref, qualify for shield feats, and conditionally extra damage. (+heal, + utils).  I think serene + unity is a bit better unless you're trying to off tank.

Half-elfs get oath on diminishment though.  So they'll do more damage, but IMO, it's overall worse.  But if you've already got a strong defender/leader/ect....  then it might be the way to go.

Eitherway you generally ignore Con.  Yes it's nice (and you usually can get +1/2 in there), but not a requirement.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The Avenger|Runepriest sounds like a fun one to try.

I noticed the build Mellored posted is a year old. Anything you would update?
Please don't confuse low chance to do extraordinary damage (daggermaster) and high DPR.  If you take him with combat advantage against a tofu block, take a look at his overall damage per round.  YOu probably can beat him in a DPR fight with the builds in the DPR king thread (see sig).  If you want the glory of "YOU DO HOW MUCH DAMAGE!!!??!?!?" once per encounter you're looking at a Ranger's minor action/multi attacks, the barbarian's front-loaded encounter powers, or Sorcerer/wizard enlarging till kingdom-come.  They don't have the best consistent DPR, but they do have good flare which makes you feel srikery.

If I were going high DPR I'd go with a revenant battlemind | whatever, with sub-zero fighting to achieve the "YOU GOT DEALT HOW MUCH DAMAGE AND YOU DIDN'T DIE!?!?!?",  and you can easily achieve the daggermaster's DPR through brutal barrage optimization.  BB may be too much like twin strike for your taste.  Possibly the problem lies in the fact that you need to reorient your mind to be able to refluff optimized tricks into something fun.  I can take twin-strike and make it seem like a warlock shooting eye-beams like cyclops burning their souls to the core instead of the boring "I shoot it with 2 arrows."  Consider ammunition to liven up the ranger.  Currently there's the Arrow that stands as the current level 12 king.  It does use twin strike, but it has enough damage types to allow for some awesome refuluffing.
DPR King Candidates 3.0
How much damage should I shoot for?
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
There's a few more Str/Wis races, some might be more optimal.

Other then that, I don't see any issue. Though I only glanced at it.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.