How can Auras be fixed

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As im sure most of you know, some might not, auras are very weak. To those of you who don't know, auras are weak because when they enchant something and if that thing dies then the aura dies too. Wizard has done various attemps to fix auras, like [c=drake umbra]Totem Armor[/C] (which for instance falls short if your opponent responds to it by doom blading your dude).

So how can we fix auras so they don't cause card disadvantage? 
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Are you asking for an overhaul of 645 cards?
Because I think that might be hard without messing something up badly.

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I believe he is asking for theorycrafting rather than an overhaul.
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[c=drake umbra]Totem Armor[/C] (which for instance falls short if your opponent responds to it by doom blading your dude).


why are you saying totem armor doesn't applly to [C]Doom Blade[/C]?

Gatherer Ruling = 6/15/2010: Totem armor's effect is applied no matter why the enchanted permanent would be destroyed: because it's been dealt lethal damage, or because it's being affected by an effect that says to "destroy" it (such as Doom Blade). In either case, all damage is removed from the permanent and the Aura is destroyed instead.

they expressly mention [C]Doom Blade[/C] and say the aura is destroyed "instead"

if you mean it still fall short because players can [C]Doom Blade[/C] your creature in order to kill the aura... that doesn't seem like a bad thing - i would uniformly prefer an opponent waste a creature removal spell on an aura instead of the creature itself
split second on all of them.

edit: @koridian: you cast your aura targeting your guy. In response, with the aura on the stack, they doom blade your guy. 
The very issue I'm wrestling with currently, as you clearly noticed.  Problem with them is they are usually out performed by other types of cards in their areas.  The only thing I can really think of is that they either need scaling effects in addition to their basic effects (Blanchwood Armor) or have a way of returning.  Gatherer drops sharply if you search for auras of 4.3 rating or better with only 55 results.

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I believe he is asking for theorycrafting rather than an overhaul.


Correct, i won't to fix it mechanical and not by the rules. just making a single card that doesn't suck because it is an aura.
[c=drake umbra]Totem Armor[/C] (which for instance falls short if your opponent responds to it by doom blading your dude).


why are you saying totem armor doesn't applly to [C]Doom Blade[/C]?

Gatherer Ruling = 6/15/2010: Totem armor's effect is applied no matter why the enchanted permanent would be destroyed: because it's been dealt lethal damage, or because it's being affected by an effect that says to "destroy" it (such as Doom Blade). In either case, all damage is removed from the permanent and the Aura is destroyed instead.

they expressly mention [C]Doom Blade[/C] and say the aura is destroyed "instead"

if you mean it still fall short because players can [C]Doom Blade[/C] your creature in order to kill the aura... that doesn't seem like a bad thing - i would uniformly prefer an opponent waste a creature removal spell on an aura instead of the creature itself



You are correct in everything you says, but it seems you missunderstood me. The aura goes to the graveyard if it's target is no longer legal when it tries to resolve - like metalevolence said.

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Without split second or totem armor, I feel auras should have high rewards to go along with their intrinsic high risks. I.e. just make more powerful auras.

If they have an answer you feel the sadness that is auras. If they don't you win within a couple turns.

EDIT: However, with the recent rise of hexproof, this might be a bad idea... I miss shroud  
Rancor.
Problem solved.
how about not making them suck
It's "Ko"
Umezawa's Jitte

Best aura ever.
Real men hold shift. If everyone has their fingers in the pie, then someone is eating fingers.
thanks to metalevolence and theis999 for clarifying what you meant re Doom Blade

i've always noted the drawback to auras, but i don't think it's something that needs to be changed -- concept-wise, it makes absolute sense that if you enchant a living creature, say to augment its strength, and that creature dies, the enchantment you put on it is moot

i've always really resented [C]Rancor[/C] and think it's unreasonably over-powered --- would HATE if they started doing that on all auras, or even just more auras

i'm okay with auras the way they are -- some are amazing, some are okay, others are only right under ideal circumstances - that's how a card game stays balanced -- not every card can be a game-winner every time
@Metalevolence

Well there is Celestial Mantle.  Its more of a silly card than anything, but it can be a gamewinner in a lifegain deck. 

For reusable auras besides rancor, there is spirit loop, dragon shadow, dragon breath, Dragon scales, dragon wings, dragon fangs, and fool's demise.  Now most of these do have conditons for recursion, but they are still very good cards.  I almost forgot about the new aura, angelic destiny, which isn't the best but still pretty good. 

There are a decent number of recurring auras.  I don't think Wizards wants too many recurring auras, because they may be too powerful.  Imagine if rancor or spirit loop were legal in standard.  That would cause problems for a lot of decks.  When you compare most auras to their closest card type is equiptment.  Equiptment are more abusable and generally longer lasting, but are slower to set up.  Auras are generally cheaper and provide an impact sooner, which in a competitive environment makes a difference.  So while I like better auras, don't expect too many more and be happy with the ones we have.    
I find I dislike getting two-for-oned while casting Auras far more than I do once they're on the board. By then they'll have an impact on whatever they're enchanting - if they can't keep their enchantees from dying, then it's pretty much a fair crop. Perhaps something like this then, to prevent part of that frustration:

Pragmatic [cost] ([cost]: You may choose new targets for this spell.)
If they can arbitrarily stop printing Lightning Bolt or Counterspell in favor of worse replacements, Wizards can just as easily retire crappy auras in favor of better replacements.

Why not an Unholy Strength that's +3/+1?
If they can arbitrarily stop printing Lightning Bolt or Counterspell in favor of worse replacements, Wizards can just as easily retire crappy auras in favor of better replacements.

Why not an Unholy Strength that's +3/+1?


What I really think is that you are correct.  However that will require a couple things to happen in my opinion:

1) On here/wizards someone is going to have to push the envelope, and it will probably be poorly received by elder YMtCers/players because it is out of balance (deliberately so) with the current.  Actually I think I'll just scratch my current auras in my set and experiment with this myself and brace for hate or neglect on comments entirely.

2) It will require an adjustment in the current design philosophy of making creatures that are layers of sugar on layers of suger.  This trend only serves to force out roles filled by auras.

3) Spells will, by necessity, see a (small) power jump to handle aura'd creatures.  The ability to simply doom blade an inherently powerful creature will be more critical in scope of potentially game changing auras landing on any creature where currently nobody really runs many auras so you just blade/dismember whatever lands.  A large portion of the game revolves around splashing black for removal or just trading creatures in other colors until your biggie lands (looking at your planeswalkers).  Other colors will need escalation of their own answers to maintain balance.  I think cards like Flame Slash are the future or more modal spells that allow for escalated effect.

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The wildcard is going to be hexproof.  Better auras on any random dork may or may not make auras less terrible overall, but a great aura on a mediocre hexproof dude is just going to be a disaster.
I agree.  Personally I'm not a fan of Hexproof as an ability.  Again, each color will have to have its own answer.  DOOM BLADE ALL THE THINGS! PATH ALL THE THINGS! won't work forever.  That's why spells that don't target are important, though in the past more so than presently.

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how about not making them suck

That tears casual games apart.  Playgroups that don't have enough instant-speed removal will get crushed by powerful auras.

I support Split Second appearing on a lot of them.
The very issue I'm wrestling with currently, as you clearly noticed.  Problem with them is they are usually out performed by other types of cards in their areas.  The only thing I can really think of is that they either need scaling effects in addition to their basic effects (Blanchwood Armor) or have a way of returning.  Gatherer drops sharply if you search for auras of 4.3 rating or better with only 55 results.


I checked your link, and i know and have played with all 55 of those auras. I don't think all of them are that strong, but many of them have a way of going around the issue of being an aura.
Without split second or totem armor, I feel auras should have high rewards to go along with their intrinsic high risks. I.e. just make more powerful auras.

If they have an answer you feel the sadness that is auras. If they don't you win within a couple turns.

EDIT: However, with the recent rise of hexproof, this might be a bad idea... I miss shroud  


Hexproof is mainly a green ability, so if you only made these high reward auras in other colors then players would at least need to splash.
split second, totem armor, rancors ability, granting shroud/hexproof, and etb abilities are all decent ways to make auras not suck because they are auras.
how about not making them suck


Give it a try Ko ^^
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thanks to metalevolence and theis999 for clarifying what you meant re Doom Blade

i've always noted the drawback to auras, but i don't think it's something that needs to be changed -- concept-wise, it makes absolute sense that if you enchant a living creature, say to augment its strength, and that creature dies, the enchantment you put on it is moot

i've always really resented [C]Rancor[/C] and think it's unreasonably over-powered --- would HATE if they started doing that on all auras, or even just more auras

i'm okay with auras the way they are -- some are amazing, some are okay, others are only right under ideal circumstances - that's how a card game stays balanced -- not every card can be a game-winner every time


Rancor was a bit overpowered, but it isn't worth it anymore in vintage or legacy where it is legal. When creatures get stronger (the power creep we have seen in recent years) then naturally enchant creatures would have to follow the same line and become more powerful, but they just ain't. Edge of the Divinity[/C], [c]Moldervine Cloak and Angelic Destiny[/C] is the three auras from recent sets that i remember from constructed play. Siriously just three cards, given that almost every aura is an "enchant creature" and most of those are supposed to used on your own creatures, we still have 80% of a cardtype where less than 5% of those actually will actually be considered for constructed play and even less actually have made onto the constructed scene.I think it is fair to say that it is okay that there is good and bad cards. But saying that a single cardtype has to be severely underpowered and only in very cases will get any playtime, that doesn't make sense. I don't believe that any cardtype in the game needs to be underpowered so much that it doesn't matter, then it might aswell never have been.Note - im talking about auras as if they are all enchant creatures and supposed to be aimed at you own creatures, mostly because those are the most common and because it is those that are flawed and underpowered. Auras show up such great numbers that is fair to call it a seperate type, and i know it isn't a cardtype.You talk about flavor of auras and that it matches the mechanic of them, And i think you are correct but that simply for the purpos of the game there needs to be some changes to auras.A lot of you have come with some great thoughts and input on the matter. I like the idea of upping the ante, that because of the greater risk of auras that you would need a greater reward. But like sleetfox said, it could cause problems in some casual circles, and i also think it might cause some problems when balancing limited as i know auras are generally better in formats light on removal. But then again, i have never tried making a limited format so how could i know.I love Elzaban's pragmatic ability, and i think it would solve a lot of issues. Another way could be to use cast triggers as they don't get countered when the enchanted creature isn't legal anymore.for instance:Cardname :G:Enchantment - AuraEnchant creatureWhen you cast Cardname, put a 2/2 creature onto the battlefield.Enchanted creature get +2/+2.Another way, could be something i have just choosen to call Bounds.Cardname :U:Enchantment - AuraEnchant creature, bounds (as long as this spell is on the stack, enchanted creature has shroud)Enchanted creature get +2/+0 and has flying.I don't know if bounds work by the rules and i don't think it is a great name, it was just a thought.Sleetfox and others mention that split second is a great way of minimizing the worst drawback of auras, apparently wizard thought otherwise. A quick search on gatherer reveals that there is just one [c=Take Possession]aura with split second and that card isn't even an aura that is meant to be on your own creatures and therefor it doesn't have the aura problem.

Could there be other ways of fixing auras? 
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how about not making them suck

That tears casual games apart.  Playgroups that don't have enough instant-speed removal will get crushed by powerful auras.

I support Split Second appearing on a lot of them.



So people who are bad at deckbuilding lose and this is bad somehow?
It's "Ko"
A quote from the god-shrimp of mankind himself, Purple_Shrimp:

[1:05:28 AM] Purple_Shrimp: encouraging casuals to use instant-speed removal is a good idea though
[1:16:54 AM] Purple_Shrimp: if they want to start winnin they've got to stop scrubbin
It's "Ko"
purple_shrimp be preachin street truth
192884403 wrote:
firstrike
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
This definitely doesn't mean what you think it means.
I was referring to the painting The Treachery of Images.
I know.
he is also known for preachin truth of the non-street variety.
It's "Ko"
how about not making them suck

That tears casual games apart.  Playgroups that don't have enough instant-speed removal will get crushed by powerful auras.

I support Split Second appearing on a lot of them.



So people who are bad at deckbuilding lose and this is bad somehow?

If you suck at deckbuilding, an entire card subtype shouldn't dominate the entire game because of it.  You should just lose because your deck sucks.  It's the same reason infect was a bad idea, even though the mechanic was sound in theory; a bad deckbuilder playing infect, just like a bad deckbuilder playing hypothetically-supercharged auras, will destroy bad deckbuilders playing anything else.
When ~ enters a graveyard, if you control a [basic land producing mana of corresponding color], return this to its owner's hand.
Maybe they could have some kind of of goofy "when ~ is put into a graveyard from the stack..." trigger.
The problem is:

If you make them any better, they will stomp everything in limited. Heck, they already do.


Angelic Destiny already dominates a limited game it resolves in. If you want enchantments to be as reliable as equipments, they need to be scaled DOWN in power. 

That, and on hexproof guys, cards like spectral flight are much, much stronger. 
i repeat: i'm happy with auras the way they are
The problem is:

If you make them any better, they will stomp everything in limited. Heck, they already do.



IMO this is not true at all, unless you play nothing but mono green limited decks or something... Besides removal spells, even a simple bounce will answer an aura nicely. On top of that, if worse comes to worse, enchantment removal also works. Basically most ways you can interact with your opponent can handle an aura.

Destiny is a mythic, which is precisely where you're supposed to put cards that are overwhelming in limited, and what's more, it HAS a clause that mitigates its intrinsic aura drawback.

the hexproof guys do throw everything for a loop... but as long as they don't put good hexproof creatures at common and only sparingly at uncommon, limited should be okay.

how about not making them suck

That tears casual games apart.  Playgroups that don't have enough instant-speed removal will get crushed by powerful auras.

I support Split Second appearing on a lot of them.



So people who are bad at deckbuilding lose and this is bad somehow?

You should just lose because your deck sucks.



If you don't run removal, your deck sucks
It's "Ko"
The problem is:

If you make them any better, they will stomp everything in limited. Heck, they already do.



IMO this is not true at all, unless you play nothing but mono green limited decks or something... Besides removal spells, even a simple bounce will answer an aura nicely. On top of that, if worse comes to worse, enchantment removal also works. Basically most ways you can interact with your opponent can handle an aura.

Destiny is a mythic, which is precisely where you're supposed to put cards that are overwhelming in limited, and what's more, it HAS a clause that mitigates its intrinsic aura drawback.

the hexproof guys do throw everything for a loop... but as long as they don't put good hexproof creatures at common and only sparingly at uncommon, limited should be okay.



This has a lot of truth to it.

As long as hexproof is mainly green and good hexproof dudes are kept out of common and uncommon. Good as in good by themselves. Strong auras that boost combat effectiveness (those that grant both great power/thoughness boost and gives evasion) are kept mostly at uncommon and rare, and are kept somewhat out of green. Then limited should have no problem.

Interacting with auras are about the easiest in the game. Every color has at least one way to fight auras. Black has both discard and creature removal, green has enchantment removal, blue has counterspells, unsummon, return to library and mind control, white has enchantment and creature removal (sometimes even on the same spell), and red has burn-removal and threaten effects which at least can turn enchanted creatures against their's owner. As it is easy to see, every color has a way to interact with auras, and most of these effects are somewhat common in limited too. 

So if there is a problem, then even formats as limited should rapidly adapt to it as they already has the tools. Besides, making enchanments stronger and thereby enchantment removal should actually stregthen the game and the color pie definition of green and white.
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The problem is:

If you make them any better, they will stomp everything in limited. Heck, they already do.



IMO this is not true at all, unless you play nothing but mono green limited decks or something... Besides removal spells, even a simple bounce will answer an aura nicely. On top of that, if worse comes to worse, enchantment removal also works. Basically most ways you can interact with your opponent can handle an aura.

Destiny is a mythic, which is precisely where you're supposed to put cards that are overwhelming in limited, and what's more, it HAS a clause that mitigates its intrinsic aura drawback.

the hexproof guys do throw everything for a loop... but as long as they don't put good hexproof creatures at common and only sparingly at uncommon, limited should be okay.



This has a lot of truth to it.

As long as hexproof is mainly green and good hexproof dudes are kept out of common and uncommon. Good as in good by themselves. Strong auras that boost combat effectiveness (those that grant both great power/thoughness boost and gives evasion) are kept mostly at uncommon and rare, and are kept somewhat out of green. Then limited should have no problem.

Interacting with auras are about the easiest in the game. Every color has at least one way to fight auras. Black has both discard and creature removal, green has enchantment removal, blue has counterspells, unsummon, return to library and mind control, white has enchantment and creature removal (sometimes even on the same spell), and red has burn-removal and threaten effects which at least can turn enchanted creatures against their's owner. As it is easy to see, every color has a way to interact with auras, and most of these effects are somewhat common in limited too. 

So if there is a problem, then even formats as limited should rapidly adapt to it as they already has the tools. Besides, making enchanments stronger and thereby enchantment removal should actually stregthen the game and the color pie definition of green and white.



I think I love you...

Heh.

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