Firbolg and Dark Ones

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These races were introduced as major players in the Feywild and Shadowfell respectively in the Manual of the Planes, and had a couple of monsters in the MM2 and 3, but have been completely dropped since.  They weren't even mentioned in any of the recent major supplements.  What happened?  Are we ever going to see any more material on them?  They should have been new playable races in the Player's Option books.  
 
It's things like this that continually make 4e feel so unpolished, they really need to put up more effort to maintain consistency in their material.   
These races were introduced as major players in the Feywild and Shadowfell respectively in the Manual of the Planes, and had a couple of monsters in the MM2 and 3, but have been completely dropped since.  They weren't even mentioned in any of the recent major supplements.  What happened?  Are we ever going to see any more material on them?  They should have been new playable races in the Player's Option books.  
 
It's things like this that continually make 4e feel so unpolished, they really need to put up more effort to maintain consistency in their material.   



Firbolgs are large size, and thus wouldn't make good PC races.  Also, they were mentioned in the Heroes of the Feywild-supporting supplement, Character Themes: Born from the Feywild, since they originated the Wild Hunt.  They were also mentioned in the Wild Hunt-related Epic Destiny in Heroes of the Feywild itself.

Dark Ones have been in many Shadow-themed articles since then, and at the very least appeared in artwork within Gloomwrought.  However, they're not appropriate as a PC race without major reflavouring, since they're blood-thirsty murdrous traitors, the lot of them.  They coexist with Shadar-kai and Shadowborn in Gloomwrought and other settlements, but that doesn't make them heroic.  It would be like demanding Hobgoblins, Orcs, Bullywugs, and Duergar as PC races.  They've got MM stats, but that doesn't mean they're appropriate.  WotC decided Gnolls actually weren't appropriate, and shoved the fact they were supported under a rug. 


Now, a LEGITIMATE complaint would be the lack of any details on the Dread Emperor in Gloomwrought and Beyond.  I mean, he was like the most fluff-tastic element of the Shadowfell chapter in Manual of the Planes, and yet is completely absent in the box-set based on that Plane.  I can only hope they have some big plans in store for this guy in a future supplement or adventure.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

These races were introduced as major players in the Feywild and Shadowfell respectively in the Manual of the Planes, and had a couple of monsters in the MM2 and 3, but have been completely dropped since.  They weren't even mentioned in any of the recent major supplements.  What happened?  Are we ever going to see any more material on them?  They should have been new playable races in the Player's Option books.  
 
It's things like this that continually make 4e feel so unpolished, they really need to put up more effort to maintain consistency in their material.   



Firbolgs are large size, and thus wouldn't make good PC races.  Also, they were mentioned in the Heroes of the Feywild-supporting supplement, Character Themes: Born from the Feywild, since they originated the Wild Hunt.  They were also mentioned in the Wild Hunt-related Epic Destiny in Heroes of the Feywild itself.

Dark Ones have been in many Shadow-themed articles since then, and at the very least appeared in artwork within Gloomwrought.  However, they're not appropriate as a PC race without major reflavouring, since they're blood-thirsty murdrous traitors, the lot of them.  They coexist with Shadar-kai and Shadowborn in Gloomwrought and other settlements, but that doesn't make them heroic.  It would be like demanding Hobgoblins, Orcs, Bullywugs, and Duergar as PC races.  They've got MM stats, but that doesn't mean they're appropriate.  WotC decided Gnolls actually weren't appropriate, and shoved the fact they were supported under a rug. 


Now, a LEGITIMATE complaint would be the lack of any details on the Dread Emperor in Gloomwrought and Beyond.  I mean, he was like the most fluff-tastic element of the Shadowfell chapter in Manual of the Planes, and yet is completely absent in the box-set based on that Plane.  I can only hope they have some big plans in store for this guy in a future supplement or adventure.



I can't rebut on the Firbolg bit, but that sure isn't the fluff for Dark Ones as I interpreted it from the Manual of the Planes.  It compares them to halflings and says they coexist mostly peaceully among the shadar-kai.  The monsters represented by them are also Unaligned, not evil, so I don't understand why they'd be considered so inappropriate.  Also, those races are PC options!  They just aren't fully supported.  

I agree about the Dread Emperor also.  
since they're blood-thirsty murdrous traitors, the lot of them.


You mean like drow, shadar-kai or shades?

But, as Einlanzer pointed out, "they're blood-thirsty murdrous traitors, the lot of them" isn't even an accurate summary of their official fluff anyway.
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
Show
You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%
Personally, I believe there are already enough "trickster races" in 4e for now, and Dark Ones also have the downside of being generally cruel and malicious. They also haven't got as much lore to be based on, compared to Pixies, Satyrs and Dryads. Besides, their flavor makes them sound like the bastard child of an unseelie fae and Belkar Bitterleaf, which is worse than kobolds.
Are firbolgs of 4th Ed like previous one? I like the idea of a giant (with a touch of fay) PC race who isn´t like goliaths, but they can be good heroes.

And about Dark Ones in my land we say people who has got "pocas luces" (= few lights) isn´t very inteligent. I don´t like the background of a civilitation where the light is banned/forbiden. Can´t they use fire? I would rather a "splaterpunk" shadar-kai or drow like PC race. 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

@Luis_Carlos: I think the names "Shadowfell", "Dark Ones", "Shadar-Kai" and "Shades" answer your question about light. Also, if you can see in the dark, you don't need light.

WotC have chosen not to make PC races that are larger than Medium, so I don't think they will allow Firbolgs. Also, Dragonborn, Minotaurs and Bugbears are about as large as Goliaths, if you are looking for alternatives. Bugbears can even use Large weapons.
People were certain they wouldn't go tiny, yet here the pixies are.



But other races of shadow don´t hate the light like the Dark Ones.

And I don´t like bugbears like PCs because they are too stuypy, the clasic trite of muscle whitout brain. I would rather half-ogre. And the firbolg like PC could be so big like Goliath (only bigger by feats, paragon class and like this) 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

I think the names "Shadowfell", "Dark Ones", "Shadar-Kai" and "Shades" answer your question about light. Also, if you can see in the dark, you don't need light.



But other races of shadow don´t hate the light like the Dark Ones.

And I don´t like bugbears like PCs because they are too stuypy, the clasic trite of muscle whitout brain. I would rather half-ogre. And the firbolg like PC could be so big like Goliath (only bigger by feats, paragon class and like this) 


All races hate the light if they choose to be a vampire - far more than Dark Ones do, since they take damage from being in the sun. In fact, most Drow fear the light of the sun as much as Dark Ones do. And "muscle without brain" is only how you choose to play it. You could play a Bugbear Wizard based on INT and WIS if you wanted to.

There are several problems with being Large, far more, in fact, than there are with Tiny PCs. Firbolgs are basically giants, while Goliaths are half-giants. By allowing people to play Firbolgs, WotC might as well allow us to play dragons, since we already have the Dragonborn...

I severely doubt that WotC make and release races based on how they think a single culture would receive them. Your country having a saying shouldn't change the setting for the rest of us. If you want to play a shadow creature who likes the light, talk to your DM about it. Just remember that the Dark Ones and other shadow creatures are supposed to be what they are - every single race or creature doesn't have to be playable nor should they neccesarily be changed in order to make everything seem alike. I mean, I'd like to be able to play a Mind Flayer, but that doesn't mean that I want WotC to change the general Mind Flayer race, since an offshoot, a random mutation or just magic is enough to justify it as a player race. But if WotC don't feel like it should be part of an official setting because of flavor or balance issues, or if WotC as a company wouldn't make a profit from doing the work, they shouldn't have to do it. I'll just bother my DM with it instead.

[/rant]
But rebember Forgoten Realms had got a feat what allowed creatures like drows to endurace the daylight. But the Dark Ones are totally photophobic, the most photophobic race (they fear/hate light). It isn´t only they live plane of shadow or the underdark. The creation of light (like by spells of fire ball or lighting thunderbolt) is tabu, forbidden, anatema. They don´t use fire no to cook.  

Bugbeard wizard? Please! I would rather a oni/mage ogre spellcaster PC.

...And I like (I love!) the monster classes of 3rd Ed.

I wonder if a "retcon" of size of firbolg like PC race could be posible.

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

I don't think it was EVER the intention of 4e to include each and every monster race as playable, and the closest you can get to playing a oni in 4e would be to make a Bugbear/Goliath Witch/Warlock/Mage. This isn't 3e.

Neither Drow nor Dark Ones have any mechanic that says that they can't endure daylight, and the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide has no feat that relates to Drow and daylight. I don't know where you're getting that from.

The culture of Dark Ones - just like everything else in the game - is moderated by your DM. If you want to play a Dark One who doesn't fear light, talk to your DM about it. But your personal desires for being able to play a race shouldn't have to change the official description of it - especially when it comes to the very basic, defining properties of the race. It would be like asking WotC to make all small humanoids medium-sized, because you don't like short people. Again, this is 4e, not 3e, and not everything is supposed to be playable. Conforming all races to a narrow range of physical properties or cultural values would make the game extremely bland.
I don't think it was EVER the intention of 4e to include each and every monster race as playable, and the closest you can get to playing a oni in 4e would be to make a Bugbear/Goliath Witch/Warlock/Mage. This isn't 3e.

Neither Drow nor Dark Ones have any mechanic that says that they can't endure daylight, and the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide has no feat that relates to Drow and daylight. I don't know where you're getting that from.

The culture of Dark Ones - just like everything else in the game - is moderated by your DM. If you want to play a Dark One who doesn't fear light, talk to your DM about it. But your personal desires for being able to play a race shouldn't have to change the official description of it - especially when it comes to the very basic, defining properties of the race. It would be like asking WotC to make all small humanoids medium-sized, because you don't like short people. Again, this is 4e, not 3e, and not everything is supposed to be playable. Conforming all races to a narrow range of physical properties or cultural values would make the game extremely bland.



But whether a race should be in a rulebook has more to do with the core setting assumptions.  And the core setting assumptions put them as tretcherous, murderous, shadowy little buggers.  They're monsters, not dark halflings.  They may interact with Shadar-kai in a similar way as Halflings interact with Humans, but Humans are in the Shadowfell too; Shadar-kai aren't the majority of the people in the Shadowfell.  And Shadar-kai, for much of what we've seen, actually tend to not be so nice either – they just happen to be able to live and let live with the Dark Ones.  But Dark Ones hate races from the World, and just don't get along with the core races.  Not a good idea for a race – and definitely not before more popular monster races like Kobolds and Goblins that have been waiting forever.  If Kobolds and Goblins don't get stats, Dark Ones DEFINITELY don't. 

Read more than just the Monster Manual if you want the setting material for a race.  They appear in other books.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

It's pretty easy to play a 'dark one' as a halfling or gnome with the Born of Shadow feat and a suitable selection of 'shadowy' powers (Assassin, Nethermancy Mage and Gloom Hexblade probably give the most thematic power options) anyway, so I'm not sure why people are so concerned about not having an 'official' dark one racial write-up.
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
Show
You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%
Read more than just the Monster Manual if you want the setting material for a race.  They appear in other books.


It's entirely possible you're right and I've just managed to miss all the official fluff that describes them in the... rather extreme way you've described... but please provide actual citations so I can go check up for myself. Thanks.
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
Show
You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%
@Marandahir:

Exactly. My point was that it is entirely possible to play as a Dark One if one has a Drizzt-like backstory in mind (or if one is trying out Book of Vile Darkness and need something with easy guidelines), but that Wizards shouldn't have to change the official description of a race just to make it more easily playable or acceptable.

And even if a player desperately wants to play a Dark One, there is nothing in the way as far as game mechanics go, since Drow have no disadvantage in sunlight either. Duskweaver's idea of a Halfling character with a shadow class and the Born of Shadow feat takes care of the crunchy part of playing a Dark One. If you want to be nitpicky and have a weakness to sunlight, multiclass or hybrid vampire. If a photophobic, homicidal hobbit isn't supposed to be a part of the party, that's a different problem.
Read more than just the Monster Manual if you want the setting material for a race.  They appear in other books.


It's entirely possible you're right and I've just managed to miss all the official fluff that describes them in the... rather extreme way you've described... but please provide actual citations so I can go check up for myself. Thanks.



I would, but currently don't have access to my books like I did the last time I posted.  Sorry for not giving citations then.  I'll post some citations when I get back home on the 30th if you're still interested.

@Marandahir:

Exactly. My point was that it is entirely possible to play as a Dark One if one has a Drizzt-like backstory in mind (or if one is trying out Book of Vile Darkness and need something with easy guidelines), but that Wizards shouldn't have to change the official description of a race just to make it more easily playable or acceptable.

And even if a player desperately wants to play a Dark One, there is nothing in the way as far as game mechanics go, since Drow have no disadvantage in sunlight either. Duskweaver's idea of a Halfling character with a shadow class and the Born of Shadow feat takes care of the crunchy part of playing a Dark One. If you want to be nitpicky and have a weakness to sunlight, multiclass or hybrid vampire. If a photophobic, homicidal hobbit isn't supposed to be a part of the party, that's a different problem.



Agreed, and personally I think there SHOULD be MM stats for Dark Ones.  But according to WotC, they used up a lot of that coinage for an evil race with select few good individuals when they published Drow – that's the reason we don't have my precious Githyanki.  ;_ ;

In any case, there's apparently going to be a lot of races in Dragon next year, according to a certain inside source I read on the forums here a few weeks back.  Maybe the official line will change if they start publishing Goblins and Kobolds and such.  I don't know. 

I personally think there's nothing wrong with playing Dark Ones as good or even as evil, as we've even had a book on playing evil – The Book of Vile Darkness.  But that book is supposed to be for very rare and corner case games, and not the core assumption of the D&D game.  So Dark Ones would have to be Darizztk-Ones in order to pass outside of a Vile Darkness game.  That's also not a problem in my book, but probably isn't very cost effective to publish for WotC.  But that might change. 

I'm just not seeing a lot of demand, though, for Dark Ones or Firbolgs, outside of this discussion.  I sorta wanted them, and I know a few other people, but they're nowhere near as popular as Kobolds or Goblins. 

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

I would, but currently don't have access to my books like I did the last time I posted.  Sorry for not giving citations then.  I'll post some citations when I get back home on the 30th if you're still interested.


Yes, I'm still interested.
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
Show
You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%
It isn´t only Dark Ones are evil and they hate all light. The are one of the most xenophobic D&D race. It´s not easy a Dark One PC with comrade-in-arms of people of race from land of light. A alliance of drows, goblins, hobgoblins, githyanki or kobols with ordinary races like humans, elves or dwarfs is more possible.

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Read more than just the Monster Manual if you want the setting material for a race.  They appear in other books.


It's entirely possible you're right and I've just managed to miss all the official fluff that describes them in the... rather extreme way you've described... but please provide actual citations so I can go check up for myself. Thanks.



I would, but currently don't have access to my books like I did the last time I posted.  Sorry for not giving citations then.  I'll post some citations when I get back home on the 30th if you're still interested. 



I'm interested, too, because I have most 4e supplements and the only book I have seen them more than briefly mentioned in is the MotP, which describes them as halfling-like people that live peacefully among the shadar-kai and makes no mention of them being evil, murderous, or photophobic.
It isn´t only Dark Ones are evil and they hate all light. The are one of the most xenophobic D&D race. It´s not easy a Dark One PC with comrade-in-arms of people of race from land of light. A alliance of drows, goblins, hobgoblins, githyanki or kobols with ordinary races like humans, elves or dwarfs is more possible.



Citation please?  

Again, the only fluff I've seen for Dark Ones talks about them living peacefully among the shadar-kai.  
Luis_Carlos has it right, and I'll be more than happy to provide citations later tonight when I get home.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

It isn´t only Dark Ones are evil and they hate all light. The are one of the most xenophobic D&D race. It´s not easy a Dark One PC with comrade-in-arms of people of race from land of light. A alliance of drows, goblins, hobgoblins, githyanki or kobols with ordinary races like humans, elves or dwarfs is more possible.


Not necessarily.

Citing the Monster Manual 1, page 49:

"Dark One Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful Arcana check.
DC 15: Dark ones live among shadar-kai, much the way as halflings find their place among populations of humans, dwarves, and elves. Dark ones prefer to dwell in homes that are at least partially underground.

Encounter Groups
Dark ones often serve shadar-kai and intelligent undead as agents, assassins, envoys, messengers, and spies. They can be found among various Underdark dwellers."

So that's an official statement saying that Dark Ones are okay with Shadar-kai, Revenants, Vampires, Drow and Duergar - possibly also Goblins and Kobolds.

So where are those citations illustrating that Dark Ones are evil, photophobic, and murderous?  We have two that describe them very differently.
You have asked me about the scouge of information and it´s Fiend Folio (3rd Ed) and the article of Dragon Magazine "ecology of dark ones" (number 10 of Spanish ed, 322 of English edition).

I can read in Fiend Folio that Dark Ones only have got contact with other races when they defend their homes or steal trinkets and will not bother a group of character who travel without help of light (torchs or magic).

The article of Dragon Magazine tells they hate the blacksmith (because fire is light) and only they get those objects when they steal them, and they usually don´t form a alliance with other creatures.

But if now Dark Ones of 4th Ed are different, I can´t know it.  

(I´m sorry if sometimes my English grammar isn´t perfect).

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Well, that's one source down, considering that most 3rd and 3.5 fluff isn't valid until further notice.

I'm looking forward to Marandahir's citations, especially if they turn out to contradict MM1.
Well, that's one source down, considering that most 3rd and 3.5 fluff isn't valid until further notice.

I'm looking forward to Marandahir's citations, especially if they turn out to contradict MM1.



And dont' forget the Manual of the Planes.  I have a strong feeling that he/she either does not have sources, or realized after posting that they were misread or are invalid.  
I have showed my citation. I haven´t lied. If now Dark Ones from 4th Ed are too different I can´t know how much.

*  Player's Guide to Faerûn had got a feat: daylight adaptation to be got by PCs like drows.

* Off-topic. A question for all experts of spellcaster classes:

 Do you know what is the difference between a (female) enchanter and a witch?

Five years of marriage.

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

I have showed my citation. I haven´t lied. If now Dark Ones from 4th Ed are too different I can´t know how much.

*  Player's Guide to Faerûn had got a feat: daylight adaptation to be got by PCs like drows.


Whether or not you lied is beside the point. This subforum is called "Future Releases" and WotC aren't doing anything based on 3rd or 3.5 anymore - neither the fluff that describes the Dark Ones, nor the crunch that makes Drow affected negatively by daylight - so it just isn't relevant.

This entire thread has been and is about 4e, and only 4e.
But we are talking about official background too. Although changes can be possible the background of 3rd ed is still canon (or it is supposed it´s) but 4th Ed says other different thing.

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Monster Manual 3 on dark ones, pg 38:

"TO DARK ONES, THE BRIGHT LANDS of the world are a verdant field littered with spoils.  Venturing forth from the Shadowfell, dark ones come to steal the richest treasures, the greatest secrets, and the most talented artisans and crafters from the mortal realm.

LORE

History 17: The origin of the dark ones is shrouded in mystery.  Speculators believe the small shadow creatures are the descendants of halflings that fled into the Shadowfell ages past.  Others say dark ones are a race native to the shadow realm.

Dark ones are infamous for their inability to craft beautiful or useful objects.  Their workmanship is always shoddy.  Their armor crumples, and their weapons break.  Thus, the creatures have become the ultimate thieves.  They steal everything, including skilled artisans, whom they force to produce everything from clothing to magic items. 

Since they have no stable alliances with creatures of the world, which they call the Blinding Realm, the dark ones target outcasts, such as thieves' guilds, bandits, and other radiers.  An adventuring party hired to recover a stolen object might find the thieves slain and the treasure they stole carried off to the dark ones' warrenlike lairs in the Shadowfell.

ENCOUNTERS

When it comes to profit, dark ones are utter mercenaries.  Cults of Graz'zt use them as spies and killers, while other dark ones join or even lead temples to Vecna.  Members of the race are commonly found in company of Shadar-kai. 

Dark ones have an inexplicable hatred of skulks, and the two races invariably come to blows.  A town caught in the crossfire of such a shadow war can be reduced to an empty shell, as what began as a simple gang conflict quickly devolves to a war of attrition."

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Monster Manual 3 on dark ones, pg 38:

"TO DARK ONES, THE BRIGHT LANDS of the world are a verdant field littered with spoils.  Venturing forth from the Shadowfell, dark ones come to steal the richest treasures, the greatest secrets, and the most talented artisans and crafters from the mortal realm.

LORE

History 17: The origin of the dark ones is shrouded in mystery.  Speculators believe the small shadow creatures are the descendants of halflings that fled into the Shadowfell ages past.  Others say dark ones are a race native to the shadow realm.

Dark ones are infamous for their inability to craft beautiful or useful objects.  Their workmanship is always shoddy.  Their armor crumples, and their weapons break.  Thus, the creatures have become the ultimate thieves.  They steal everything, including skilled artisans, whom they force to produce everything from clothing to magic items. 

Since they have no stable alliances with creatures of the world, which they call the Blinding Realm, the dark ones target outcasts, such as thieves' guilds, bandits, and other radiers.  An adventuring party hired to recover a stolen object might find the thieves slain and the treasure they stole carried off to the dark ones' warrenlike lairs in the Shadowfell.

ENCOUNTERS

When it comes to profit, dark ones are utter mercenaries.  Cults of Graz'zt use them as spies and killers, while other dark ones join or even lead temples to Vecna.  Members of the race are commonly found in company of Shadar-kai. 

Dark ones have an inexplicable hatred of skulks, and the two races invariably come to blows.  A town caught in the crossfire of such a shadow war can be reduced to an empty shell, as what began as a simple gang conflict quickly devolves to a war of attrition."




Ok, thanks for following through, but that does not contradict any info in the MM or the MotP or anything I said.  It also doesn't entirely support your conclusion that they are all murderous and bloodthirsty (especially since they are explicitly unaligned as a race), nor is there anything contained in that blurb that would automatically invalidate them as a potential PC race.

No offense, but you seem to be reading more into the lore than what's there.  They are pilferers and scavengers - that doesn't make them evil, just aloof and mischievous.  That they "don't have any stable alliances with creatures of the world" only indicates that they are reclusive and shy about the natural world, not aggressive or genocidal.  The bit about them targeting outcasts even reinforces this.

The fact that they are often mercenaries is just an extra bit of flavor meant to make them seem ubiquitous and diverse, which if anything makes them more appropriate as a PC race.  

I'm not saying that they HAVE to be a PC race, or even deserve to be over races like Goblins, etc., but I have a hard time figuring out why, with the total lack of playable shadow origin races, they were not so much as mentioned in the Heroes of Shadowbook, or the Gloomwrought one (more or less anyway).

 
Servants of Graz'zt and Vecna are not PC races.  Unless we're using Drow Tokens (and WotC specifically said they're not giving us PC Githyanki because that would be using Drow Tokens), a race filled with servants of evil does not a PC race make.

A race that is hostile to the native races of the Natural World is not a PC race.  PC Races work together, rather than fight amongst themselves.

They're cuthroat killers, and will the ENTIRE RACE BY DEFAULT has to resort to kidnapping and thievery in order to have a racial economy.  PCs can be heroic thieves, but a society based on villainous thievery (even if they're Unaligned in the MM) is an evil society.  This is not right for a PC race.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Monster Manual 3 on dark ones, pg 38:


I'd already read all that. I thought you said there was stuff beyond what was in the MMs?

And I agree with Einlanzer that those quotes don't make them out to be as extreme as what you earlier claimed. I too think you're reading more into the text than is there.

I do appreciate you taking the time to find and post the references, though, even though they do nothing to convince me of your opinion.

Servants of Graz'zt and Vecna are not PC races.


We had a whole article in Dragon not so long ago about playing non-evil PCs who worship Vecna. Besides, it only says some cults of Graz'zt and Vecna employ some dark ones. Many cults of Asmodeus and the archdevils employ or are led by tieflings. Does this mean tieflings should not have been a playable race? Or what about humans, who are described in the official fluff as being easily corrupted and producing many of the world's most terrible villains?

A race that is hostile to the native races of the Natural World is not a PC race.


The quote you posted does not say that. It just says they don't tend to form stable alliances with inhabitants of the world. But it seems to me that that statement would apply equally well to several already-playable races.

PC Races work together, rather than fight amongst themselves.


So drow and eladrin don't hate each other? Tieflings are not feared and persecuted? Shades are not ruthlessly ambitious individualists?

Nothing you quoted says that dark ones are incapable of cooperation. Just that, as a race, they usually don't form long-term relationships with people who are not themselves Shadowfell-natives. That's not the same thing at all.

a society based on villainous thievery (even if they're Unaligned in the MM) is an evil society.


And yet, all the dark ones we've seen statblocks for (i.e. all those whose alignment we actually know) are not evil. They are unaligned. So the game's designers clearly didn't intend dark one society to come across as irredeemably wicked.

And we can still play heroic half-orcs who come from mainstream orcish society (which can be summed up as "might makes right" and where raiding and pillaging is a way of life). Or we can play a human PC who comes from a society that practises slavery or ruthless imperialism. Or a winterkin eladrin who owes fealty to the (very evil) Prince of Frost.

I find it interesting that you highlighted the dark ones' mutual animosity with skulks and the bloody results of their conflicts, as if that was all the dark ones' fault and evidence of their depravity... considering that skulks are explicitly defined as having a chaotic evil alignment. Maybe the dark ones are not the ones you should be blaming for the collateral damage there... ;)
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
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You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%
Servants of Graz'zt and Vecna are not PC races.  Unless we're using Drow Tokens (and WotC specifically said they're not giving us PC Githyanki because that would be using Drow Tokens), a race filled with servants of evil does not a PC race make.

A race that is hostile to the native races of the Natural World is not a PC race.  PC Races work together, rather than fight amongst themselves.

They're cuthroat killers, and will the ENTIRE RACE BY DEFAULT has to resort to kidnapping and thievery in order to have a racial economy.  PCs can be heroic thieves, but a society based on villainous thievery (even if they're Unaligned in the MM) is an evil society.  This is not right for a PC race.



Going to go ahead and echo Duskweaver's sentiments here.  I don't mean to bust our chops, but these are clearly some shennanigans we have going on. 

So, there are human servants of Graz'zt and Vecna, should we ban them as a PC race because apparently acknowledging that some are is an indictment against the entire race.  

There's nothing in that lore that indicates they are hostile to the natural world races, and they are explicitly stated to live amongst the shadar-kai.  Once again, you are fabricating that from your own preconceived notions. 

There's also nothing whatsoever in the lore that suggests that the entire race is inherently "cutthroat killers".  I don't know where you are drawing that from.  I'll concede ever so slightly on your last point, though I don't believe it comes anywhere making them totally unworkable as a PC race.  

Bottom line is, you are filling in the gaps in their fluff (and in some cases contradicting it) with your own ideas and then positing those ideas as canon.  You decided they shouldn't be playable first then tried to rationalize why rather than objectively evaluating the data before drawing a conclusion.  Unfortunately, that sort of knee-jerk is exceedingly common in our culture, but it is kinda irrational.  I genuinely can't help but wonder what your viewpoints on other subjects might be, but of course we won't go into that here.

Basically the "they're too evil to be PC races" argument holds absolutely no water considering that:
a. they are explicitly unaligned as a race, all available fluff supports this.
b. there's already a precedent set for evil PC races anyway.     

If I had to guess why they aren't playable, it's much more likely that it was either:
a. a total oversight or
b. based on some collective idea that they are too disorganized and uncivilized to be, in which case their lore should still be expounded on and we should have a monster-as-pc MM version anyway.

Is mirror of oppostion canon yet? (it creates a evil clone... or clone of opposite aligment).

Sometimes a spell of reincarnation doesn´t work and the character became a "evil" no-human.

Therefore a no evil character of a evil race can be possible (without being always a true renegade).

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Mirror of Opposition has been updated in 4e to make the victim go into a frenzy where they attack their allies.

And again, races aren't "evil", the newest Monster Manual shows them as unaligned, and no rules exist for reincarnation in 4e.

To be honest, they just sound a lot like Shadar-Kai. Their society is based on how fast you can kill your equals/superiors in a slightly more lawful way, but in no terms less evil.

RE the MM3 citation: The keywords here are "world" and "Shadar-Kai". The citation clearly states that Dark Ones attack the world (/Prime Material plane) and that they ally with Shadar-Kai. Nowhere does it say that all Dark Ones are evil, nor that they are extremely xenophobic. Dragonborn and Tieflings wouldn't be able to be in the same group if racial backgrounds were everything, because of their conflicting histories, character types and world views.
It is also important to note that this is a Monster Manual and not player material. This means that the race's lore section is written to provide better understanding of Dark Ones as enemies, and specifically (I believe) to demonize them when the players roll a knowledge check.