Alchemist archer exploit?

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So it just occured to me that the alchemist theme is highly exploitable by archers (unless I missed something).

There are several alchemical items that you apply to a piece of ammunition. The alchemical item is used up, but the ammunition delivers a poison attack the next time it is used. (For example, bloodstinger poison.)

The alchemist theme lets you create 1 alchemy item during a short rest, though you cannot have "more than one item prepared at a time". 

Couldn't someone with the alchemist theme just keep making bloodstinger poisons, using them up on arrows (so they no longer have an alchemical item prepared), and basically making a nearly unlimited amount of free poisoned ammunition?

The only way to stop this that I can see is to claim that the item is still "prepared" until it is no longer effecting something. (Meaning that if the alchemist ever makes sovereign glue and uses it to fix something, they can never use their theme feature ever again unless someone breaks it again.) 
An Alchemist using contact poisons basically just raises themselves to the level of a normal theme. Alchemical items aren't very good.


Dealing ongoing 5 poison damage on all ranged attacks "just raises themselves to the level of a normal theme?"
Go tiefling. They can do alot with ongoing stuff.

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

But you are assuming that the alchemist is the only one using the ammo. If the alchemist has other ranged weapon team members, he can be making free bloodstinger, keen, ghoststrike, slow-step, inferno, keen ammo for all of them between adventures. Hell, I think by the RAW, you can put all of those on each piece of ammo, depenjding how many days your paty gets between adventurers.
I suppose the inferno isn't too bad, giving scaling vulnerability.  Granted, it's to an often resisted damage type, but I can see a character concept built around that.  The other bad part though is the fact that you have to make a second attack just to get the effect off.
Time need not be a big concern, depending on the campaign's pace. Next time you're in town, you spend a single day crafting poisoned ammunition. Without sacrificing any sleep, you'll be able to make 216 poisoned slingshot bullets.

The biggest issue I see is when the DM doesn't like what you're doing. Better check that before you try any of this.
It's not the first exploit gained from taking many, many short rests in a row.

Most DMs won't go for it, or will begin to somehow penalize you for the extra day/hours/whatever you're holding up the party. But it's a nice trick to make alchmey a little more useful.
It's not the first exploit gained from taking many, many short rests in a row.

Most DMs won't go for it, or will begin to somehow penalize you for the extra day/hours/whatever you're holding up the party. But it's a nice trick to make alchmey a little more useful.


You shouldn't have to "hold up the party." I find it hard to believe in any campaign that the group doesn't have any days off between adventures. If you are fighting monsters 365 days a year, something is seriously ****ed with your campaign world.
Or adventurers just got a real crappy union.
It's not the first exploit gained from taking many, many short rests in a row.

Most DMs won't go for it, or will begin to somehow penalize you for the extra day/hours/whatever you're holding up the party. But it's a nice trick to make alchmey a little more useful.

You shouldn't have to "hold up the party." I find it hard to believe in any campaign that the group doesn't have any days off between adventures. If you are fighting monsters 365 days a year, something is seriously ****ed with your campaign world.

That's true, although I've played a few campaigns with imposed time limits. What I should say is most DMs I know won't go for it, just because it's a pretty strong twisting of RAI, and one that you're announcing at the table.

DM: "Okay, the party takes a day off in the town. What do you guys do?"

P1: "I hang out in the bar and get drunk!"

P2: "I pray to Pelor that we shall be victorius."

P3: "I make 200 poison arrows."

DM: "... That's worth like 6000 gold. You're level 3, you don't have that kind of money."

P3: "I make it all for free cause of my theme."

DM: ".... Okay guys, themes are banned."

But don't get me wrong, I'd allow it. Like erachima says, it's not that strong beyond the earliest levels, and it works by RAW. But I would certainly impose a limit of how many you could make in a day and how many you can carry at once, and I wouldn't let you sell any.
I wonder if bringing how alchemical ammo works more in line with magical ammo would make the option more viable. Note: this is a tangent. 


What I mean is, what if the alchemical ammo added to whatever attack it's used with, rather than requiring it's own standard action attack. So, you'd use a ranged weapon power, and it would gain an effect line that read something like "Make a secondary attack..." with the rest of the text being the power of the item.

Alchemists fire does half damage on a miss, for instance and is a burst one attack, for instance.

You could also make alchemical attack rolls a "basic attack" using your highest abillity modifier for the attack, with a +2 proficiency bonus if you have the alchemist feat.  

these still would be items you'd only use an at level version of a couple times an encounter due to cost, but they would actually be worth that cost.  
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