Miscibility Table: Hybrid Issues

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This thread is to deal with various Hybrid options that don't seem to either work with RAI or RAW for a variety of reasons. Hopefully, this can lead to fixes of the problems.
Classes missing options in Online Character Builder that should be in theory legal:
Ardent: Mantle of Impulsiveness is not an option for Ardent Mantle(Hybrid)
Assassin(Executioner): Doesn't gain Way of the Ninja as a possible guild option.
Battlemind: Persistent Harrier is not an option for Psionic Study(Hybrid)
Fighter: Arena Fighter(Dark Sun Campaign Guide) is not an option for Fighter Combat Talent(Hybrid)
Monk: Iron Soul(Psionic Power) is not an option for Monastic Tradition(Hybrid)
Psion: Shaper Focus is not an option for Discipline Focus(Hybrid)
Hybrid classes that have appear to have unintended options:
Several Essentials classes that do not have Encounter powers from their general Class gain them as Hybrids. Assassin(Executioner), Druid(Sentinel), Paladin(Blackguard), Paladin(Cavalier), and Warlock(Binder).  Druid(Sentinel) specifically creates the issue that the Hybrid Druid(Sentinel) is almost a better controller by itself than the actual Druid class.

A Sorcerer has the option of having a conflicting source of AC vs. Soul - a Dex/Cha Sorcerer can be a Dragon Sorcerer via hybrid talent as an example.

Assassin(Executioners) gain 2 guild at-wills, a power from their other hybrid class, and then a choice of an Assassin at-will, ending up with 4 at-wills. In CB, because it sees that the build already has an assassin at-will from the 2 guild at-wills, lets one pick 2 at-wills from the other hybrid class instead. 
Hybrids that have options that are too good:
Cleric: Battle Cleric's Lore. This has numerous problems. First off, it gives Scale Armor proficiency, but doesn't take the other class into account. This should change the Cleric class into having Scale Armor Proficiency at the very least. The +2 to hit is also problematic because if the Hybrid Cleric heals himself, he gains a +2 to hit for 2 rounds. In a sense, this is a Striker feature. The really big issue with Battle Cleric's Lore is that there are a significant number of classes where a Cleric|X is generally superior at doing the job of Class X than X is. As an example, a Fighter|Cleric who takes Two-Weapon Fighter with the Hybrid Talent Feat and Pinning Challenge feat has the AC of a Fighter with Heavy Shield, yet in effect has Combat Superiority.

Essentials Classes that have a bonus to MBAs that stack with other classes that can use their Striker feature with an MBA, either because they're an essential class or because they have access to an MBA from their class. An Assassin(Executioner)|Blackguard with Virtuous Strike as an example. Each Essential Hybrid should likely have a specific MBA option available only to that Hybrid. eg Hybrid Assassin(Executioner)'s Melee Strike and then their bonus to damage works with that option, Assassin powers, or Assassin Paragon Path powers.
Options that don't appear to take Hybrids into account:
Reserve Maneuver(feat) if it doesn't count as replacing a power, you can have someone who uses Reserve Maneuver to get rid of their last Encounter Power from one of their hybrid classes. So as an example, a Fighter|X could completely dump Strength, take Rain of Steel as their Daily power and use Reserve Maneuver to take an Encounter power from the other hybrid class.

Twofold Pact(feat) grants the pact boon of that pact, even if the hybrid Warlock can't use pact boons for their original pact. As it also grants an additional at-will, it is almost strictly superior to the hybrid talent feat for Warlocks at getting a pact boon to use.

Distant Vengeance(feat) allows a hybrid Avenger to gain the benefit of their Oath when doing an RBA. The benefit of regular Avenger Oath is two attack rolls against the Oath target when doing melee attacks. The benefit of hybrid Avenger Oath is two attack rolls against the Oath target only when doing Avenger melee attacks. This allows unusual stacking of benefits such as an Avenger|Seeker being able to do something with Avenger's Oath that Avengers cannot do. It is also not clear that the stacking of benefits can happen in the first place as a Seeker power is not an Avenger power - is the benefit of hybrid oath nothing or does it simply not function normally when using a non-Avenger power?
(reserving another post, just in case)
okay to post
Cleric is obvious for "option that is too good".  Battle cleric's lore is free and better than the hybrid talent armor proficiency feat.

I think in general a good fix for a lot of the more overpowered hybrids would be to remove the option to multiclass, but that is fairly major errata.  Giving PCs access to three classes and potentially three power sources feats, powers, paragon paths, and EDs causes problems in a few builds.  That is a big part of what puts builds like Set Hammers to Stun over the top.
Cleric is obvious for "option that is too good".  Battle cleric's lore is free and better than the hybrid talent armor proficiency feat.

I think in general a good fix for a lot of the more overpowered hybrids would be to remove the option to multiclass, but that is fairly major errata.  Giving PCs access to three classes and potentially three power sources feats, powers, paragon paths, and EDs causes problems in a few builds.  That is a big part of what puts builds like Set Hammers to Stun over the top.



I think that's probably overkill for hybrids - allowing them to multiclass does allow really strong hybrids to appear, but on the other hand, for the majority of regular builds by the 'average' player, it probably isn't a big problem.

BCL, though, is #1 on my list of problems. There are a lot of classes where a hybrid Cleric|X is better than just X simply because of BCL. 
Assassin (Executioner)'s Attack Finesse.  Doubling up on striker features seems overpowered, at least in theory.  Having only apply to the normal MBA (so not having it apply to class powers that are MBAs) seems like a simple fix.

Assassin (Executioner)'s Attack Finesse.  Doubling up on striker features seems overpowered, at least in theory.  Having only apply to the normal MBA (so not having it apply to class powers that are MBAs) seems like a simple fix.




I think all the Essential Hybrids who use MBAs for some effect should have a special MBA option only available to them. Hybrid Assassin(Executioner)'s Stab - Str vs AC for thrown, Dex vs. AC for Melee/Ranged(as hybrid doesn't get to use Dex for Thrown Weapons), 1w+Str or Dex, counts as an MBA or RBA

That way, Attack Finesse can be reworded to say:
You gain the benefit of the executioner’s Attack Finesse class feature, except that you can deal the extra damage only when using the required weapons with Hybrid Assassin(Executioner)'s Stab, assassin powers, and assassin paragon path powers.
Hybrid Executioners do get Dex for MBAs.  They get Attack Finesse.  The only exception is which powers the extra damage is applied to.
Hybrid Executioners do get Dex for MBAs.  They get Attack Finesse.  The only exception is which powers the extra damage is applied to.



Good point - edited to fix
MWAO - Please consider limitting this thread.  Either use this thread is for RAI/RAW non-functionality, or for "things that are too good/bad".  Mixing the two is a very bad idea.  One is rules don't work, which is fairly objective non-opinionated.  The other is balance issues, and it has a much more opinion based report style.
Hybrid classes that have appear to have unintended options:
Several Essentials classes that do not have Encounter powers from their general Class gain them as Hybrids. Assassin(Executioner), Druid(Sentinel), Paladin(Blackguard), Paladin(Cavalier), and Warlock(Binder).  Druid(Sentinel) specifically creates the issue that the Hybrid Druid(Sentinel) is almost a better controller by itself than the actual Druid class.

A Sorcerer has the option of having a conflicting source of AC vs. Soul - a Dex/Cha Sorcerer can be a Dragon Sorcerer via hybrid talent as an example. 



I actually like that hybriding can take an essentials class out of its straight jacket.  The hybrid Sentinel still has issues: he has to choose between AC and power riders (although Con can be ignored by druids, but that weakens the companion); he has no class features that control (not that the Druid has any, but the Protector does).

The Sorcerer problem seems like a non-issue to me.  If you make a Cha/Dex Hybrid Dragon Sorcerer, fine.  You lose out on all your power riders.  It's unintuitive, but no one would do it, because it is just plain bad.
Hybrid classes that have appear to have unintended options:
Several Essentials classes that do not have Encounter powers from their general Class gain them as Hybrids. Assassin(Executioner), Druid(Sentinel), Paladin(Blackguard), Paladin(Cavalier), and Warlock(Binder).  Druid(Sentinel) specifically creates the issue that the Hybrid Druid(Sentinel) is almost a better controller by itself than the actual Druid class.

A Sorcerer has the option of having a conflicting source of AC vs. Soul - a Dex/Cha Sorcerer can be a Dragon Sorcerer via hybrid talent as an example. 


The hybrid Sentinel still has issues: he has to choose between AC and power riders (although Con can be ignored by druids, but that weakens the companion); he has no class features that control (not that the



I don't agree with that. The companion is your class feature control element. It is both a leader and a control element. If you're playing a Controller Sentinel, you're likely a ranged attacker and trying to stay out of melee. Your companion is likely in melee, taking OAs and setting up CA or giving defense to your allies, and inhibiting certaion movement options for your foes. It's not the same as dropping difficult terrain once an encounter, but it's stil got a control element to it.

You're spot on about the choice, but again, if you're going to be a ranged controller, you're not as worried about AC. As such you may choose a class that either fits with your AC feature (Invoker)  or gets AC another way (Wizard, Seeker, Invoker again). And you don't have to worry about Con for your companion: Auspicious Birth and Born Under a Bad Sign take care of half the equation (the other half being the number of healing surges).
Death Attack should be an assassin hybrid talent option.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

And you don't have to worry about Con for your companion: Auspicious Birth and Born Under a Bad Sign take care of half the equation (the other half being the number of healing surges).



Dumping con means losing the Animal Companion's damage advantage, which is that it gets your Con + Wis modifiers to damage. This is a bigger deal in heroic, of course, but the AC's damage doesn't scale that great anyways, and scales even worse if you don't pump Con. And even if you won't be making standard action attacks with it, keeping the OAs relevant is key to keeping the control effect of the AC in place.
And you don't have to worry about Con for your companion: Auspicious Birth and Born Under a Bad Sign take care of half the equation (the other half being the number of healing surges).



Dumping con means losing the Animal Companion's damage advantage, which is that it gets your Con + Wis modifiers to damage. This is a bigger deal in heroic, of course, but the AC's damage doesn't scale that great anyways, and scales even worse if you don't pump Con. And even if you won't be making standard action attacks with it, keeping the OAs relevant is key to keeping the control effect of the AC in place.



Whoops. Third of the equation then.

Druid(Sentinel) specifically creates the issue that the Hybrid Druid(Sentinel) is almost a better controller by itself than the actual Druid class.


No way.  If anything, I'd argue that the option to hybrid brings the Sentinel up to par, since a pure Sentinel is fairly weak by itself. 

A large part of the O-Druid's control comes from synergy between various status effects and its beast form MBAs; parking yourself 1 square away from dazed/prone enemies to stop their charging with Grasping Claws, immobilizing ranged guys next to you, forcing a dominated creature to provoke an OA from you (as well as your allies), etc.  The best that the Sentinel can hope for from a MBA is Melee Training, and the companion won't be doling out any status effects.  Plus they can't easily* gain access to the beast form options, some of which provide very respectable control.  Finally, even a hybrid Sentinel only gains 1 at-will from the Druid class, and given how many top-tier at-wills Druids get this can be painful.  After all, what better controller options would a Sentinel get?  The best way to go pure controller as a hybrid is Invoker, and their at-wills are, quite frankly, pretty terrible for control even with domain support. 

Sentinels can definitely make respectable controllers, but they can't compete with an O-Druid.

*Sentinels can technically gain Wild Shape by grabbing both Call to the Wild and Beastwalker Circle, but it's very rarely worth the effort given a Sentinel's restricted access to Druid at-wills, being stuck with a use of SNA, and the general cost of 2 feats.
I will add that Hybrid Paladin's can't select Ardent Vow with thier HT in the CB.


Twofold Pact(feat) creates an issue that it grants the pact boon of that pact, even if the hybrid Warlock can't use pact boons for their original pact. As it also grants an additional at-will, it is almost strictly superior to the hybrid talent feat for Warlocks at getting a pact boon to use. 



Of course Twofold Pact is a paragon Feat while Hybrid Talent is a Heroic Feat.
Twofold Pact should be superior , shouldn't it?

Hybrid classes that have appear to have unintended options:
Several Essentials classes that do not have Encounter powers from their general Class gain them as Hybrids. Assassin(Executioner), Druid(Sentinel), Paladin(Blackguard), Paladin(Cavalier), and Warlock(Binder).  Druid(Sentinel) specifically creates the issue that the Hybrid Druid(Sentinel) is almost a better controller by itself than the actual Druid class.


I actually like that hybriding can take an essentials class out of its straight jacket.


Exactly this. I have absolutely no use for the locked-in, on-rails Essentials class style, and hybrid forms of these classes are the only way I'll touch them. Putting the hybrids back on the rails would make the game less interesting without necessarily making it more balanced - that's a bad fix.
Non-choices were probably the biggest complaint about E-classes in general, and I always saw the hybrid options as completely intentional fixes to the originally flawed approach.
The hybrid Sentinel still has issues: he has to choose between AC and power riders (although Con can be ignored by druids, but that weakens the companion); he has no class features that control (not that the Druid has any, but the Protector does).

I'd say the biggest hit to a Sentinel who doesn't invest in CON is surges. The Companion is an extra drain on your surges, and if you're facing a lot of AoEs the drain is significant.  They don't have the best defenses either.  This issue is going to be more pressing over time than your HP or the companion's damage.

Regardless of this, I'm not seeing anyone posting their uber hybrid Sentinel controller builds here.  It's not an issue.
The best that the Sentinel can hope for from a MBA is Melee Training, and the companion won't be doling out any status effects.



And that's the Sentinel. Not the hybrid Sentinel.
Regardless of this, I'm not seeing anyone posting their uber hybrid Sentinel controller builds here.  It's not an issue.



CharOps has issues defining what an uber controller is in the first place. But most top-tier controller builds that are non-hybrids and Int/Wis or Wis/Con based can be easily improved by being a Sentinel|Controller. Cazzeo's Dominator in his Invoker Handbook as an example - pick up Magic Stones instead of Hand of Radiance, Charm Beast when you get to 7th(yes, dominate as an encounter with a miss effect for a build that is focused on will-based dominate attacks), and a Summons instead of Searing Orb/Wall of Blades. Pick up Serpent's Cunning for a free +1 to hit with all the Epic Wizard powers without needing to spend a feat for it.

There you go. The companion might not do great damage, but when dominated targets are charging all over the place, it will get free OAs on them. It gives out free CA, something this build likes a lot. And hey, there's a heal.
I'm not 100% that it's actually legal, but a hybrid Ranger|Bard who takes the feats to swap out for Rapid Shot and Skald's aura, and takes a skald at-will, can trigger the benefit multiple times per round. With something like Bolstering Speech on a Dex/Cha build, you can give out decent THP to multiple allies every round.

"Not only are you wrong, but I even created an Excel spreadsheet to show you how wrong you are." --James Wyatt, May 2006

Dilige, et quod vis fac

I will add that Hybrid Paladin's can't select Ardent Vow with thier HT in the CB.



Hybrid Paladins cannot select Lay on Hands or Virtue's Touch either.  This was a deliberate design choice that was removed after the playtest article.
I'm not 100% that it's actually legal, but a hybrid Ranger|Bard who takes the feats to swap out for Rapid Shot and Skald's aura, and takes a skald at-will, can trigger the benefit multiple times per round. With something like Bolstering Speech on a Dex/Cha build, you can give out decent THP to multiple allies every round.



I'm not looking for unexpected synergy, good or not. I'm looking for things where the hybrid either can do something from the class that the non-hybrid cannot or an option where the option assumes that the member is a full member of the class rather than a hybrid.
Correct, they're intended to have options from the other class, that much is obvious.

If you have any basis to claim that by choosing to hybrid as a Executioner, Blackguard, Cavalier, Sentinel, or Binder it was intended that you'd have access to the powers of the Assassin, Paladin, Paladin, Druid, or Warlock (respectively) when you otherwise wouldn't as a non-Hybrid ... I would seriously like to hear it.

The only reason it's a non-issue is because aside from the Executioner, all of those are strictly inferior to their Parent Class and desperate need access to powers from their Parent class in order to function reasonably.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Oh, they said so? Must have been after the panel at Gencon, but you don't have a recording of your conversation or anything in writing, it's just something you know. Right.

Yes, I know you're refering to what's written in the PHB3 rules of Hybrids, which are rules that predate not only subclass Hybrids, but the subclasses themselves. Claiming that questionable RAW is designer intent is laughable and I would hope you would know that; guess not.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Read the actual text of the article, and the hybrid rules.

All the essentials hybrids say "you can take [blood drinker/etc...] when you have the opportunity to gain a class encounter power with a level" not that you must take it.

So it is quite blatently optional.  Also, because all the powers have the name of the main class, rather than the name of the subclass, it is utterly blatent that powers are poachable between subclasses where choices are available.  This is why Hybrid Sentinel is simply better than Straight Sentinel - they get to poach the Druid powers that are actually useful, rather than being locked to the rails of being a bad Striker with some heals.


Since MwaO brought it up, who's up for a discussion of how to rate controllers?  I still think the best starting point is trying to work out an "Effective Actions Denied" metric.  Not the easiest thing to measure, but it's a starting point.
How would you quantify buffs and debuffs, Beo42 ?

Based on options available, and experienced effectiveness, I would rate wizards first (way too much love there, WotC), invokers a close second, followed by the psion.
In my opinion the druid and binder are just confused, and the seeker is severally lacking options.
Not seen any hunters in play, but it would appear they specialise in single target control. To me, the best single target control is offered by a ranger rather than the hunter.
The Druid moved pretty clearly ahead of the Psion with HotF. And it NEVER belonged in the same sentence as the damn Binder.
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Read the actual text of the article, and the hybrid rules.

All the essentials hybrids say "you can take [blood drinker/etc...] when you have the opportunity to gain a class encounter power with a level" not that you must take it.

So it is quite blatently optional.  Also, because all the powers have the name of the main class, rather than the name of the subclass, it is utterly blatent that powers are poachable between
subclasses where choices are available.  This is why Hybrid Sentinel is simply better than Straight Sentinel - they get to poach the Druid powers that are actually useful, rather than being locked to the rails of being a bad Striker with some heals.



I think if it were blatant, they would have specifically called out that they could poach encounter attack powers given that some of the subclasses didn't normally get encounter attack powers.

That they didn't call this out suggests more that they simply didn't realize what all the mix of rules might end up meaning. And because hybrids are almost by definition corner-case, they haven't felt a lot of pressure to resolve it.
"I am correct, because it is not expressly printed I am wrong" isn't the strongest basis for a position on something that matters so little to so few, MwoA.
If you have any basis to claim that by choosing to hybrid as a Executioner, Blackguard, Cavalier, Sentinel, or Binder it was intended that you'd have access to the powers of the Assassin, Paladin, Paladin, Druid, or Warlock (respectively) when you otherwise wouldn't as a non-Hybrid ... I would seriously like to hear it.

The only reason it's a non-issue is because aside from the Executioner, all of those are strictly inferior to their Parent Class and desperate need access to powers from their Parent class in order to function reasonably.

How about the fact that the unlocked hybrids made those classes palatable to a significant subset of their customers who hated the Essentials design restrictions and didn't buy any of the related material? I always viewed it as a wise business decision more than anything else.

And yes, if they were left with just their locked-in powers as hybrids, they'd likely be horrible. Because of their alternative design, E-style classes are only balanced when taken as a whole with all their features and powers working in sync. Just cobbling together a few of them results in an ineffective character, and hurts overall balance more than the current options.
Uh, no. The wording is there to clarify that ex."Power Attack" is your option when selecting powers from the e-class since an unleveled power is not normally a legal choice.
The best that the Sentinel can hope for from a MBA is Melee Training, and the companion won't be doling out any status effects.



And that's the Sentinel. Not the hybrid Sentinel.


I can't think of a single MBA a hybrid Sentinel could gain which replicates Grasping Claws.  Eldritch Strike is very similar to Savage Rend, but GC is the Druid's workhorse action denial MBA.  A Sentinel with Eldritch Strike can't touch an O-Druid with GC.  Besides, Wis/Con Warlock | Sentinel doesn't strike me as particularly powerful anyways; the Warlock has some control options, but a lot of its riders will be nearly useless with no appreciable Int (tertiary at best). 

A PoS Avenger is another obvious option for a Sentinel to gain a MBA, but again it won't control like Grasping Claws, and it's arguably even more MAD than the Warlock.

Regardless of this, I'm not seeing anyone posting their uber hybrid Sentinel controller builds here.  It's not an issue.



CharOps has issues defining what an uber controller is in the first place. But most top-tier controller builds that are non-hybrids and Int/Wis or Wis/Con based can be easily improved by being a Sentinel|Controller. Cazzeo's Dominator in his Invoker Handbook as an example - pick up Magic Stones instead of Hand of Radiance, Charm Beast when you get to 7th(yes, dominate as an encounter with a miss effect for a build that is focused on will-based dominate attacks), and a Summons instead of Searing Orb/Wall of Blades. Pick up Serpent's Cunning for a free +1 to hit with all the Epic Wizard powers without needing to spend a feat for it.

There you go. The companion might not do great damage, but when dominated targets are charging all over the place, it will get free OAs on them. It gives out free CA, something this build likes a lot. And hey, there's a heal.


Yes, this is admittedly a powerful combination.  I still don't see it as being any more game-breaking than, for example, a Swordmage | Warlock (which can be built to slightly out-perform either parent class).  Besides, you're still a feat behind a pure Invoker because you'll need HT Invoker Armor Prof or Primal Guardian, and you lose out on Channel Divinity, and your Covenant bonus sees less use because you dilute your pool of Invoker encounter/daily powers with Druid powers.  The hybrid is still probably a little more powerful overall, but there are costs involved.

Since MwaO brought it up, who's up for a discussion of how to rate controllers?  I still think the best starting point is trying to work out an "Effective Actions Denied" metric.  Not the easiest thing to measure, but it's a starting point.


This has been attempted at least 3 or 4 times since 4e's release, and there's never been a consensus.  The problem is, action denial is often the result of tactics, positioning and synergies.  Stun may always result in a lost turn, but how do you determine how often prone will eat an enemies turn?  How do you account for combining it with slow or dazed?  What about something like Winged Horde?  It's praised as the best Wizard at-will, but how do you quantify its subtle effect on the battle (usually improved positioning without a threat, or an easy escape)?

Personally, I'm content with just playing controllers and doing what I find fun (and powerful).  I can usually eyeball a build and say whether or not it will perform effectively, and that's good enough for me.

The Druid moved pretty clearly ahead of the Psion with HotF. And it NEVER belonged in the same sentence as the damn Binder.


As far as I'm concerned the Druid was always ahead of the Psion; HotF simply allowed it to creep up further into Invoker/Wizard territory.  IMO the Druid is one of the most underestimated classes in 4e, as it does admittedly require careful building and intelligent tactics to really be effective.  In a vacuum its hard control is inferior to a Wizard's or Invoker's, but it can get a lot more mileage out of Prone and Daze than they can (hint - make sure the enemy has to charge past you, and then nail it with Grasping Claws to stop it in its tracks).  Furthermore, the Psion (and Seeker) were the first published controllers to fall short of the "game changing dailies" paradigm that defined early controllers, and all subsequent controllers have followed in their footsteps.  Granted Druid dailies might not be quite as nasty as the Invoker's or Wizard's, but they're not far behind (and the Druid has much better at-wills to compensate). 

With the "anecdotal evidence" disclaimer, in Heroic tier I've often found the Druid to be more effective than even the Wizard (though YMMV a lot, as is the nature of control).  Admittedly Wizards get some pretty sick stuff at higher levels though, and that's when they definitively pull ahead.
If you have any basis to claim that by choosing to hybrid as a Executioner, Blackguard, Cavalier, Sentinel, or Binder it was intended that you'd have access to the powers of the Assassin, Paladin, Paladin, Druid, or Warlock (respectively) when you otherwise wouldn't as a non-Hybrid ... I would seriously like to hear it.

The only reason it's a non-issue is because aside from the Executioner, all of those are strictly inferior to their Parent Class and desperate need access to powers from their Parent class in order to function reasonably.

How about the fact that the unlocked hybrids made those classes palatable to a significant subset of their customers who hated the Essentials design restrictions and didn't buy any of the related material? I always viewed it as a wise business decision more than anything else.



If their intent was to make those customers happy, why not just globally give out the option and/or make it absolutely clear that they were giving it out? As in, "Hey, with hybrids, we decided to let people pick encounter attack powers from their class."

And yes, if they were left with just their locked-in powers as hybrids, they'd likely be horrible. Because of their alternative design, E-style classes are only balanced when taken as a whole with all their features and powers working in sync. Just cobbling together a few of them results in an ineffective character, and hurts overall balance more than the current options.



I've rated them on the presumption that they don't have the Encounter Attack powers available to them. They're not weak at all unless the class that the sub-class belongs to as a whole has lousy power choice across the board. Sentinel and Blackguard in particular are quite strong.
The best that the Sentinel can hope for from a MBA is Melee Training, and the companion won't be doling out any status effects.



And that's the Sentinel. Not the hybrid Sentinel.


I can't think of a single MBA a hybrid Sentinel could gain which replicates Grasping Claws.  Eldritch Strike is very similar to Savage Rend, but GC is the Druid's workhorse action denial MBA.  A Sentinel with Eldritch Strike can't touch an O-Druid with GC.  Besides, Wis/Con Warlock | Sentinel doesn't strike me as particularly powerful anyways; the Warlock has some control options, but a lot of its riders will be nearly useless with no appreciable Int (tertiary at best). 

 

Except you don't have any need to pick Int-based Riders...you pick the best possible Warlock Encounter and Daily power, take Twofold Pact for an extra at-will. Everything else is Druid. I'm sure most optimizers can find one Warlock Encounter and Daily power that they'd want to have over a Druid option - there are still a lot of relatively weak Druid levels out there.

As for GC, I'd take Eldritch Strike+Animal Attack+Curse+CA over it most of the time. That churns out a lot of damage when you can force OAs(you slide the target next to your Animal Companion to force the 2nd OA)


Yes, this is admittedly a powerful combination.  I still don't see it as being any more game-breaking than, for example, a Swordmage | Warlock (which can be built to slightly out-perform either parent class).  Besides, you're still a feat behind a pure Invoker because you'll need HT Invoker Armor Prof or Primal Guardian, and you lose out on Channel Divinity, and your Covenant bonus sees less use because you dilute your pool of Invoker encounter/daily powers with Druid powers.  The hybrid is still probably a little more powerful overall, but there are costs involved.



The build ends by taking Int-based Daily Attacks. It gets a Dominate earlier. It is an Int-based build, so it doesn't need HT for AC. All Stun-based powers dominate and it has an extra source of damage(as weak as it may be) for inflicting on dominated targets.

It is clearly a bit better than a top-tier controller build. That's all that needs to be said given your argument was that you hadn't seen any uber-Sentinel builds.
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