Building a Jedi Ninja? Building a Jedi Ninja!

I have to get my mind off of things have a character I'd like to flesh out. Recently I've been given the character to play as a pregen, at level one during the Legacy era.

The characte is a Jedi, Zabrak. Stats are
Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 13
Int: 12
Wis: 15
Cha: 14

I know nice array given by the DM

For feats he has given me

Martial Arts
Force Training
Strong in the Force

Among basic Jedi starting feats (yes I know he gave it extra feats, he wants first level characters to start with more, allmother players received extra feats)

For talents he gave me

Dampen Presnce (TFU 24) odd choice

For force powers he gave me

Force shield
Move object
Mind trick


Now I asked him what direction the characters Jedi master was training him, and the GM replied that I was being pushed more towards being a Jedi Ninja..... My first question was how does one be a Jedi ninja....

So my request to you all, is help me build an awesome Jedi Ninja with the basics I've provided here as building blocks, a level by level breakdown would be nice or anything.

GM also said it's nit JUST Jedi Ninja, but also secret agent, spy type, black ops type. So anything along those lines, his Master was apparently a Bothan Jedi Master.
Building a "Jedi Ninja" I'd start in Scout and multiclass into Jedi and Soldier and may pick up a few things from some Scoudrel talent trees but do that from PrCs.

Now starting from with this I crash and burn before I get going on a build.  I'm sorry but I'm not a fan of obscene starting stats and a host of extra feats.  If a GM really is worried about "weak" first level characters then he should just start characters a few levels in; I'd definitely consider that 1st-level character the equivalent of a 2nd-level one and probably a 3rd-level one.

I don't remember exactly what the build was but a Sith Shadow type character I once figured out would have been a Scout3/Jedi3/Soldier1/Gunslinger/Vanguard/SithApprentice.   
My first question was how does one be a Jedi ninja....



I'd like to echo StevenO's misgivings about your starting build. I could see some extra feats/ability score boosts granted as a reward during the length of the campaign, like for completed destinies or particularly heroic acts, but certainly not a build like that at 1st level. It's game-breaking IMO...if it was a single-player action game like Force Unleashed then those stats would be expected, but that's what a party is for. It's so everyone has a chance to shine in their own particular way. 

Beyond that, I have misgivings about the idea of a "Jedi Ninja." The Jedi are in a plethora of ways analogous to the Samurai, who in turn are (both classically and historically) diametrically opposed to (and contrasting with) the Ninja. Ninja are assassins and mercenaries, with little to no inherent cultural/spiritual values. The Samurai, on the other hand, have an ancient history complete with rich traditions and noble ideals.
I'm not an expert on Japanese history by any means, but I know enough to realise the difference between Samurai and Ninja. I'd consider myself much more knowledgeable on Star Wars lore, and the idea of a "Jedi Ninja," while undoubtedly cool and popular, is as contradictory a term as "Vegan Pork." 

All that to say, is your GM looking for a Force-sensitive assassin? If so, that's a build that we can easily come up with, but please don't call the character a Jedi

Regardless, it'd be best to explain
1) what you want your character to be able do in the first several levels (say through level 6-7)
2) What the character's philosophy is on the Force, the galaxy, and possibly things like life, death, and violence
3) what direction you would like the character to be heading towards. I don't mean to be vague but I wanted to leave room for expression.

After you get those 3 down, I'll most likely have a build that will suit you. 
I never listen to the Order 66 Podcast. Winner of You Build the Character #27 - Cad Bane
My first question was how does one be a Jedi ninja....



I'd like to echo StevenO's misgivings about your starting build. I could see some extra feats/ability score boosts granted as a reward during the length of the campaign, like for completed destinies or particularly heroic acts, but certainly not a build like that at 1st level. It's game-breaking IMO...if it was a single-player action game like Force Unleashed then those stats would be expected, but that's what a party is for. It's so everyone has a chance to shine in their own particular way.

[Fair enough, like I said its a pregen and the only options I have at this point are playing it or not playing, I voiced my concern of it being a little over the top, but Id rather play than sit out]

Beyond that, I have misgivings about the idea of a "Jedi Ninja." The Jedi are in a plethora of ways analogous to the Samurai, who in turn are (both classically and historically) diametrically opposed to (and contrasting with) the Ninja. Ninja are assassins and mercenaries, with little to no inherent cultural/spiritual values. The Samurai, on the other hand, have an ancient history complete with rich traditions and noble ideals.
I'm not an expert on Japanese history by any means, but I know enough to realise the difference between Samurai and Ninja. I'd consider myself much more knowledgeable on Star Wars lore, and the idea of a "Jedi Ninja," while undoubtedly cool and popular, is as contradictory a term as "Vegan Pork."

[Maybe I used the wrong term in Ninja, its more of a stealth type, a low key, gets things done without resorting to head on combat or flashy use of force abilities. I have ideas for EITHER of those, but none really to take the character in a more "low key" fashion. Maybe to steal a term from SWTOR lets call it the Jedi Shadow]

All that to say, is your GM looking for a Force-sensitive assassin? If so, that's a build that we can easily come up with, but please don't call the character a Jedi

Regardless, it'd be best to explain
1) what you want your character to be able do in the first several levels (say through level 6-7) [Well since his master as explained to me by the GM was training him to be ultra secretive and low-key, my best guess is to stay on that path, so something along the lines of a "Jason Bourne" type minus the amnesia, would be my best guess. Stealth, low key non flashy force abilities that help me do my job.
2) What the character's philosophy is on the Force, the galaxy, and possibly things like life, death, and violence. [To the character the Force is something that flows within, you manipulate is subtly and work with it, not forcing it but not letting it force him either, he views the galaxy as a dangerous and untrustworthy place by and large, but that its ultimately worth saving. Hes not the type to walk up to the front of the castle and take off his glove and challenge honorably, but hes also not going to cold blooedly murder someone innocent.]



Perhaps I will share the info that the GM has given me, this is ALL I know on the character, we played one session so far, and it was the result of me and my protocol droid surviving a ship explosion in mid hypserspace in an escape podm we ended up near an asteroid belt and were rescued by salvagers, through the force my character was able to determine the Sith knew where we were and would be arriving in less than 24 hours. I made a encrypted call to a contact within my order, as I had a secret crystal with code embedded on it pertaining to ancient knowledge that me and my recently deceased master had managed to wrest from the Sith aboard a Star Destroyer. As we neared the end of the session I was contacted via secret contact to go to Nar Shadaa, and as I was getting ready to leave the mining station was rocked by an explosion...-que cliffhanger-


3) what direction you would like the character to be heading towards. I don't mean to be vague but I wanted to leave room for expression. [Well his Destiny is Destruction (not picked by me, nothing on this character was picked by me, but Id like to keep in with the vision his Master had for him, be stealthy and competent, sadly I fear this will make me rather in-effective at combat in general, knowing roughly how the system works. If I had a choice Id remake it slightly but I dont so I will work with what I am given.]

After you get those 3 down, I'll most likely have a build that will suit you. 



I disagree with awaypturwpn's ninja-samurai analogy. Popular culture has many ideas of ninja - from mysterious assassins to heroic shadow warriors. To me, a "not-just Jedi Ninja" would closely resemble a Jedi Shadow (KOTOR CG).

I have some ideas for such a Jedi/light side Force user:

1) Stealth - if you want to go Stealthy, then StevenO's suggestion of starting in Scout is right on the money, but this will delay entry into the Jedi Knight PrC due to the BAB requirement. Alternatively you could try to get the White Current Adept talent to substitute your Stealth skill with your UTF.

2) Deception - a good Deception based Jedi is kind of a holy grail to me, I have come close with decent builds a few times but nothing I would call good. To me nothing embodies a good Deception Jedi more than a Jedi Shadow, a Jedi Shadow that can walk into a Sith stronghold and emerge undetected with their secrets. Like I said, I have yet to come up with a satisfactory build, the closest attempt I had was a Clawdite Jedi Shadow but she only got Deception as a class skill at level 8 from Dark Deception and the level 8 attribute increase (from level 1 to 7, she was a more direct damage kind of Force user).

3) Useful Force powers - Cloak, Mind Trick, Phase, Technometry
Here is a photo of the PDF GM sent me regarding my brief history




Hello all,


I agree.  Samurai=Jedi, Ninja=Sith.  One stands for truth.  The other deception.  Unfortunately, that is how life works right now.  Stealth and deception are a quick and easy way, yet many successful life forms (particularly predators/carnivors) use subtrefuge to survive this harsh reality ('cause it is easyer - evolutanary wise - you don't have to run and expend lots of energy when you are hidden).  However, these are not...plesant...life forms to be around, even at the best of times...

I'm sure thats what G Lucas had in mind, considering he is a samurai flick fan (insp for R2 and C3 as case in point).


You may want to consider a Jedi Sentinel build, one which can root out the DS wherever it may be.  What greater threat to the Jedi is there than the DS..? (and its minions)


I could make the build for you if you like...


Thanks (oh, and any Ninja out there, no offence - just callin' it hows I sees it - no, seriously, please don't kill me...they could be anywhere...) :O


Matty



Hello all,


I agree.  Samurai=Jedi, Ninja=Sith.  One stands for truth.  The other deception.  Unfortunately, that is how life works right now.  Stealth and deception are a quick and easy way, yet many successful life forms (particularly predators/carnivors) use subtrefuge to survive this harsh reality ('cause it is easyer - evolutanary wise - you don't have to run and expend lots of energy when you are hidden).  However, these are not...plesant...life forms to be around, even at the best of times...

I'm sure thats what G Lucas had in mind, considering he is a samurai flick fan (insp for R2 and C3 as case in point).


You may want to consider a Jedi Sentinel build, one which can root out the DS wherever it may be.  What greater threat to the Jedi is there than the DS..? (and its minions)


I could make the build for you if you like...


Thanks (oh, and any Ninja out there, no offence - just callin' it hows I sees it - no, seriously, please don't kill me...they could be anywhere...) :O


Matty



In regards to the Jedi Sentinel, sure Id like to also see how that works out, Id have to keep the level 1 as Ive presented now, but I can take it any direction starting from level 2 on so long as it keeps in flow with the characters direction.

Hey all


Sure DS.  Character looks pretty sweet...has lots of potential too.


Good gaming my friend,


Matty out!       
I disagree with awaypturwpn's ninja-samurai analogy. Popular culture has many ideas of ninja - from mysterious assassins to heroic shadow warriors. To me, a "not-just Jedi Ninja" would closely resemble a Jedi Shadow (KOTOR CG).


I do realize there are many pop culture ideas of what a Ninja should be (I thought I'd alluded to that); however, if one is using "Ninja" in the pop-culture sense and not the historical sense, then you've gotta find out what their ideas are as to what a Ninja actually is...a frame of reference, if you will. I've actually had a few prospective players say, "I wanna build a Ninja Jedi." After cringing inside, I asked them what they wanted, and their answers were quite varied One wanted to wear cool-looking armor and have a sword, one wanted to be an assassin who wields a dagger-like weapon on a long chain that wrapps around his body when it's not in use, and one wanted a stealthy Lightsaber master who could Force-blast anything into oblivion. So yeah the word "Ninja" definitely conjures up different images for different people, but when one is using the term is a pop-culture sense, then I have no way of knowing what they're talking about until they give me a frame of reference.

Fair enough, like I said its a pregen and the only options I have at this point are playing it or not playing, I voiced my concern of it being a little over the top, but Id rather play than sit out


Fair enough I'd probably enjoy playing a character like that for a little while myself...I'm feeling very un-Jedi-like with my level 5 NJO character right now. He keeps missing with his saber  
Maybe I used the wrong term in Ninja, its more of a stealth type, a low key, gets things done without resorting to head on combat or flashy use of force abilities. I have ideas for EITHER of those, but none really to take the character in a more "low key" fashion. Maybe to steal a term from SWTOR lets call it the Jedi Shadow ...
1) Well since his master as explained to me by the GM was training him to be ultra secretive and low-key, my best guess is to stay on that path, so something along the lines of a "Jason Bourne" type minus the amnesia, would be my best guess. Stealth, low key non flashy force abilities that help me do my job.
2) What the character's philosophy is on the Force, the galaxy, and possibly things like life, death, and violence. [To the character the Force is something that flows within, you manipulate is subtly and work with it, not forcing it but not letting it force him either, he views the galaxy as a dangerous and untrustworthy place by and large, but that its ultimately worth saving. Hes not the type to walk up to the front of the castle and take off his glove and challenge honorably, but hes also not going to cold blooedly murder someone innocent.]
Perhaps I will share the info that the GM has given me, this is ALL I know on the character, we played one session so far, and it was the result of me and my protocol droid surviving a ship explosion in mid hypserspace in an escape podm we ended up near an asteroid belt and were rescued by salvagers, through the force my character was able to determine the Sith knew where we were and would be arriving in less than 24 hours. I made a encrypted call to a contact within my order, as I had a secret crystal with code embedded on it pertaining to ancient knowledge that me and my recently deceased master had managed to wrest from the Sith aboard a Star Destroyer. As we neared the end of the session I was contacted via secret contact to go to Nar Shadaa, and as I was getting ready to leave the mining station was rocked by an explosion...-que cliffhanger-

3) Well his Destiny is Destruction (not picked by me, nothing on this character was picked by me, but Id like to keep in with the vision his Master had for him, be stealthy and competent, sadly I fear this will make me rather in-effective at combat in general, knowing roughly how the system works. If I had a choice Id remake it slightly but I dont so I will work with what I am given.



Alright well first off you have to to decide whether you'd like to be Mind-Affecting stealthy (no good against Yuuzhan Vong) or shadow-stealthy, or perhaps both. 

BTW If Dampen Presence is given to you by your GM, chances are he (she?) will want you to use it and so it should prove to be both useful and interesting...it's one of my personal favorites, but I think that's because it's more of a story device than a combat ability.   
I also have to mention the Jason Bourne feat, Improvised Weapon Mastery from UR. You probably weren't tihnking in that direction, but it's there anyway

Ok and if Matty is making you a Sentinel (presuming he's going the Force Haze route to the Jedi Shadow talent tree), I'll see what I can do with an alternate build. Less mind-affecting, more shadows.
Question: What are his trained skill?
You'll have to buy Skill Training (Stealth), which isn't a bad trade-off considering your starting feats. For this build, you'll also have to be trained in Perception eventually (if you aren't already, so consider bumping your Int at levels 4 & 8 for the extra trained skill).

Jedi 1 Dampen Presence, Starting feats
Jedi 2 Powerful Charge
Jedi 3 Sentinel Strike (K 25) +1d6, Deft Charge
Scout 1 Ghost Assailant
Scout 2 ST: Stealth
Scout 3 Blend In (F 28), Force Training
Jedi 4 SF: Stealth
Jedi 5 Sentinel Strike +2d6
Infiltrator 1 Creeping Approach, SF: Use the Force
Infiltrator 2 Unarmed Stun +1d
Infiltrator 3 Always Ready
Knight 1 Improved Sentinel Strike (K 39) 2d8, Flèche (GI 27)
Knight 2 Improved Move Light Object
Knight 3 Call Weapon
Jedi 6 Withdrawal Strike (K35),  Force Training
Jedi 7 Sentinel Strike +3d8
Master 1 Severing Strike
Master 2 Remote Power, Weapon Focus (Lightsabers)
Master 3 Greater Weapon Focus (Lightsabers), Distant Power
Master 4 Multitarget Power



Consider trading the Creeping Approach talent for the Silent Takedown. Either would be effective. This guy eventually does an extra 3d8 damage against flat-footed/denied-dex-mod opponents with lightsaber attacks or non-Dark-Side Force powers. He's a master of disguise, using his Blend In talent to great effect (Stealth replaces Deception for deceptive appearances). You'll want to use the Charge action a lot, because he's good at it even at early levels, getting into range with melee without being seen and dealing quite a bit of damage (think Scoundrel+Jedi Guardian from KotOR): 2d8+2d6+Str+1/2 level+1/2 level, with the decent chance of rolling a Critical on a charge at level 12 and you damage dice going up to 4d8 there as well.

Anyway play around with it and let me know what you think. 
I never listen to the Order 66 Podcast. Winner of You Build the Character #27 - Cad Bane
Question: What are his trained skill?

Oh yes I suppose those would be nice to have to figure things out...

Initiative +8
Knowledge Galactic Lore +6
Perception +7
Survival +7
Use the Force +7

That build looks amazing, ill have to go look up all the powers, no idea what some of them do, but alot of them seem familiar to my Bothan Spy build...
One thing I forgot to mention is you'll want some decent defensive powers that rely on damage negation/mitigation. So rebuke, force shield, and negate energy are all good ones. I do like cloak, but I don't normally like my players taking it because it's so rare an ability. 
I never listen to the Order 66 Podcast. Winner of You Build the Character #27 - Cad Bane
I should also mention that the GM HATES Attacks of Opportunity, and took them out (they dont exist to him) so something like Withdrawal Strike may not be the best choice sadly. I like AoO's makes things more tactical but whatever he says goes.
Question: What are his trained skill?

Oh yes I suppose those would be nice to have to figure things out...

Initiative +8
Knowledge Galactic Lore +6
Perception +7
Survival +7
Use the Force +7

That build looks amazing, ill have to go look up all the powers, no idea what some of them do, but alot of them seem familiar to my Bothan Spy build...


How did he get Survival, out of curiosity? And thank you!

I should also mention that the GM HATES Attacks of Opportunity, and took them out (they dont exist to him) so something like Withdrawal Strike may not be the best choice sadly. I like AoO's makes things more tactical but whatever he says goes.


Okay. Try Triple Crit then, I was kind of on the fence with that one but it should work well with Fleche and the Jedi Master's Serenity. 
I never listen to the Order 66 Podcast. Winner of You Build the Character #27 - Cad Bane
My best guess on the survival thing is the same as the two bonus feats, he figured it made sense for the character?

Ill look up triple Crit, thanks.

Okay, so I see Improved Move Light Object and ive read individually what the powers do, but im sure or at least assuming you have some tricks in mind with this build.

I know theres combos with IMLO just wondering about the various ones this build can pull off?
With IMLO, it's just an extra 1d6 damage as a Move action if you want. I generally just use Force Techniques as place holders on character concepts, so consider those more fluid than the rest of the character. 
There are some interesting things you can do when attacking with IMLO, but I'm pretty sure they're all Dark Side.  
I never listen to the Order 66 Podcast. Winner of You Build the Character #27 - Cad Bane
Just from what you`ve been saying DarthSet, I`d recommend starting in Scout. Jedi start off with very few skills, and Stealth is not among them. Neither is Deception. I`d say you should consider starting off in Scout to pick up Stealth and a good Scout talent, like Evasion, then go into Scoundrel to get Deception. It might cost a bit of BAB, but with your character`s stats, that won`t be a problem. Overall, I love playing Jedi Shadow builds, ones who focus on taking out the dark side and hunt it down, but for a Jedi "Ninja", it sounds like you`re going to be more skill-focused, so starting in Jedi is something I would not recommend at first. And as for Force Powers, Cloak and Phase might be something you should consider.

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Just from what you`ve been saying DarthSet, I`d recommend starting in Scout. Jedi start off with very few skills, and Stealth is not among them. Neither is Deception. I`d say you should consider starting off in Scout to pick up Stealth and a good Scout talent, like Evasion, then go into Scoundrel to get Deception. It might cost a bit of BAB, but with your character`s stats, that won`t be a problem. Overall, I love playing Jedi Shadow builds, ones who focus on taking out the dark side and hunt it down, but for a Jedi "Ninja", it sounds like you`re going to be more skill-focused, so starting in Jedi is something I would not recommend at first. And as for Force Powers, Cloak and Phase might be something you should consider.


As per the OP, he's locked in to the Jedi class and all his level 1 abilities/feats/talent as a pregen character.
I never listen to the Order 66 Podcast. Winner of You Build the Character #27 - Cad Bane
Hey all,


Evasion would be good.  High percept/use the force/stealth, even some social skills (careful with Deception) would be cool and useful, especially if you are working by yourself (baring speciallised droids/help for tech stuff).  However, you cant top my two favorites, the FP cloak and phase.  These are a must for stealthy infiltration. Any stealthy FU I create has at least two of these each.  However, there are always exceptions to the rule...


Good build A-man.  Looks pretty cool.


Hope this helps,


Matty out.           
Alright than. Seeing as you have Jedi locked in for your 1st level, I`d suggest taking either Scoundrel or Scout to pick up Stealth, Deception, etc. for your character when you reach 2nd level. You might even want to consider building up on your Martial Arts, too, seeing as you have Martial Art I and have a massive STR score.

I am Red/White
I am Red/White
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

 

I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly.
Use my system! Use my system! *Jumping from the floor with hands up. XDD

Sorry XD 

 Well, my only suggestion is that have a clear vision about the concept. A Force user don't use to need    so much "normal skills" because uses to subtitute them with Use the Force. But not all the Force users are based on "UtF".

If do you want to be more "magician" than ninja (trained person with no powers), focus on White current adept and powers like Phase, Cloak, Mind Trick. Also talents like Illusion, Dampen Presence and other few Sentinel/Shadow skills.

If want to focus on physical skills (or a mix with them), as a few people said, focus on scoundrel and scout skills. Hidden movement and similar skills would be a great choice.

I hope that I helped you a bit and good luck in your game ;) 
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