Drow deities in Forgotten Realms

72 posts / 0 new
Last post
I know some gods died, were incorporated into other pantheons, turned out to be known gods in disguise, so on and so forth. So, did Vhaeraun die, or is he still around. Cause I don't think Lolth would suffer his impertinance for too much longer.



   who is this Vhaerun you speak of.
where are his masked assassins
Who is this Eilistraee  
where are the nude dancers on the night above
who is this  Selvetarm
where are the spiders that wait
who is Kiaransalee
where are her undead toys 
who is thisGhaunadaur
 where is his slimelords
There is only Loth
we are her meat


Where is this Vhaerun, for his followers are gone  and take by a nudist
Where is this Eilistraee, for her nude dancers are all gone and the music has stopped.
Where is this Selventarm, his driders now only venerate the queen of spiders  
  Where is Kiaransalee, for her children are all brainwashed to forget her   
Where Ghaunadaur for his slimes have left the demonweb pits


we know only Lolth for we are her meat

there is no other...


those who worship others are heretics.

there is no other


and you shall know lolth and she'll laugh while you scream as you become one of her own            




there are only spiders


and spiders are all    
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
As you may have gathered from the above, Vhaeraun is dead.  Lolth is the only one still alive and kicking.  To be fair, Ghaunadar may still be alive, but is trapped in a plane of mazes IIRC, and is not really a player.

I'm not sure Eilistraee is completely dead (Cavatina's head was also severed by the Crescent Blade and her soul was not destroyed...so it's possible that Eilistraee can be bought back) but that's just speculation on my part.  Before bringing back any dead drow dieties though, they need to bring back Mystra (or Mistryl!).  No goddess of magic is just /wrong/.
actually, the part where Eilistraee admited defeat it said she feigned death.

so she might not be dead, but may be an archfey.


and as for GHaunadar, that was an avatar of his that was trapped in a maze spell..... but one of the other drow cities is filled with slime too...   
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
Gotcha, thanks!
The recently announced Menzoberranzan sourcebook that is coming out next summer should have more info for your use as well.
Matt James Freelance Game Designer Loremaster.org

Follow me on Twitter!
and as a drow loving fanboi, I can't wait. Tthere are going to be a lot of people disappointed because they think drow are overplayed, but I am not one of them so...way to go Wizards

Using the Neverwinter Campaign Guide as an indicator of how they want to do things, Menzoberranzan really makes a lot of sense.  There's a tie in to NWCG via House Xorlarrin poking around Gauntlegrym, and Bregan D'aerthe, and Menzoberranzan sounds about right for paragon level challenges.

Whereas the NWCG has several factions vying for control, Menzoberranzan has several houses doing the same thing, not to mention groups like the Jaezred Chaulssin trying to invoke their own brand of change.

Since they added the shadowfell reflection of neverwinter in the NWCG, I'm curious to see if there is a feydark reflection of Menzoberranzan included in the new book.
To answer the OP, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee merged as "The Masked Lady," who (ostensibly) perished in the Lady Pentitent trilogy as part of a bit to break the curse of Wedonai (sp?) and "redeem" at least part of the drow race (which did indeed happen). We have very little information about them in the time since, but . . .

The recently announced Menzoberranzan sourcebook that is coming out next summer should have more info for your use as well.

That seems like a reasonable speculation, doesn't it Mr. James?

I think you guys will be pleased. I know I am.

Cheers

what does ostensibly mean?
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
Well, Eilistraee had her head chopped off with the crescent blade, which SHOULD have destroyed her soul.  However, the crescent blade had been broken, and somehow made whole.

What we DO know, is that Cavatina (the darksong knight who killed Selvatarm) also lost her head to the crescent blade, and we know that her soul was /not/ destroyed because it was seen at the end of Acendancy of the last being led into Arvandor.

Therefore, it stands to reason, if Cavatina's soul survived, it's quite possible that Eilistraee's did as well.  I imagine we'll find her reborn somehow as an exarch of Corellon, who is god of the Ssri-Tel-Quessir (name used to eliminate confusion between the redeemed dark elves and the now separate race of drow)
or she's an arch fey
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
That works too.  The real question is...what about Vhaeraun?  We never did see the body there...
what does ostensibly mean?

"Apparently" or "to all outward appearances." www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/osten...

And hmm, good question about Vhaeraun. I wonder if Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue will provide answers . . .

Cheers
That works too.  The real question is...what about Vhaeraun?  We never did see the body there...



comic book rules


comic book rules


aint no body than he's not dead.



he's an arch fey too     
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
what does ostensibly mean?

"Apparently" or "to all outward appearances." www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/osten...

And hmm, good question about Vhaeraun. I wonder if Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue will provide answers . . .

Cheers






and the answer is....... not likely 


unless they have an image of his cold dead cadaver hanging upside down from a spiderweb.      
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
I think there was a bit of a un-intended spoiler in one of ESDB's threads about his home campaign with Eilistraee.  I doubt that someone who writes canon would contradict it at home ;)  I'm betting we see something on the "dead" drow gods in the Menzoberranzan book.
Well, Eilistraee had her head chopped off with the crescent blade, which SHOULD have destroyed her soul.  However, the crescent blade had been broken, and somehow made whole.

What we DO know, is that Cavatina (the darksong knight who killed Selvatarm) also lost her head to the crescent blade, and we know that her soul was /not/ destroyed because it was seen at the end of Acendancy of the last being led into Arvandor.

Therefore, it stands to reason, if Cavatina's soul survived, it's quite possible that Eilistraee's did as well.  I imagine we'll find her reborn somehow as an exarch of Corellon, who is god of the Ssri-Tel-Quessir (name used to eliminate confusion between the redeemed dark elves and the now separate race of drow)

The blade was just a fancy toy, what truly slew the deities was the divine boardgame to which they agreed to bind their essences. Selvetarm was also alive and kicking after being beheaded by the blade and only perished after his piece was taken from the board.

Kiaranshalee would also still be alive, even if that ridicolous spell would be assumed to work as described, that would merely mean that it would starts Kia's starvation, which would take centuries if not millenias until it finally kills her.

I think there was a bit of a un-intended spoiler in one of ESDB's threads about his home campaign with Eilistraee.  I doubt that someone who writes canon would contradict it at home ;)

Mmm, interesting theory, but in this case, alas, you give me too much credit.

The moment a home game is begun, it diverges from canon. Ed himself plays a version of the Realms in which significant canonical events have not transpired (the Time of Troubles, for instance). Just like any other home FR game, my game sticks fairly close to canon, emphasizing those things I really like and glossing over or ignoring those things I'm not 100% sold on. Often I'll have the events of novels happen directly, if off to the side, and occasionally the PCs will interact with those NPCs.

All of which doesn't answer your question, does it? [

I'm betting we see something on the "dead" drow gods in the Menzoberranzan book.

Seems like a good bet. [:D]

Cheers

Of course, you couldn't really answer the question without giving away things you probably shouldnt either.  Alas, I went fishing and came up with nothing!

As many times as I hear something about FR players getting cranky about violating canon and storming out of sessions, I can't help but be amused at the thought of someone who may not know any better telling Mr Greenwood, "That's not canon!"
As vast and detailed as canon is, it must never be forgotten that canon is just a TOOL, like anything else. It's a set of lore that defines a time and place (in this case the Realms at any given year), so that multiple people working there can create something that is largely the same.

Home games can and SHOULD diverge from canon, if only because the focus should be on the PCs, who are different characters than you might find in a novel or sourcebook. As a DM, if you're not following the story as it flows and are instead trying to force canon events into your game, your campaign is doomed. Canon is meant to empower, rather than straight-jacket, a DM. 

The reaction to "that's not canon!" should always be "well, duh!"

Cheers
My theroy of teh Crescent balde is that it doe snot dteroy tehs oul, but traps it until anotehr soul takes its place.
That means that several souls of creatures killed by the blade (like Selvetarm) were later released.
Since the last soul trapped was the Masked Lady, she migth still be 'in there'. Not lost, but improsoned.

The only deity I can say something about is Kiriansalee. Kiri is not dead, just 'forgotten'.
However, in one fo the LFR adventures I wrote ('The Sschindylryn Heresy', about a cult that worships 'an unnamed drow entity of death' ) she is remembered and summoned, though the adventurers banish her again using her truename.

I am working on a sequel (work title is 'Faith of the Spider Queen') , which would partly be set in Menzoberranzan. It might shake up some stuff...

Gomez
I look forward to the book which sounds good and I will read the Faith of the Spider Queen with much eager anticipation.


In truth it feels the Drow Pantheon and even the Elven Pantheon are little unbalance in good and evil.   I would like to see an evil god for the Elven pantheon because some elves will be drawn to alignment and vice versa for the Drow.  Call me a heretic for such things.  Keep up the good work Gomez and Eric   
I'm new to the forum so I do not know anyone, but Gomez are you an official FR writer then? Forgive my ignorance. But I am very excited if there is another drow book coming out.

Also, I love Vhaeraun, I'm a total fan LOL... So I like to think like some of his followers did, that he won the battle with Eilistraee but is simply 'masking' himself under her guise. Ah I hope so!!

Usstan kla'ath l' orn d'lil Orbdrinus Senger! Vhaeraun zhah naut elghinyrr; uk zhah er'griff velkresa wun l' veldrin...

who says either of them died. she could have tricked him and took his divinity and left him an archfey and when she lost the dumb game she gave up her divinity and became an archfey......



the scene where she was at tehe table wit hthe skooma addict mother of hers it said she leaned over feigning death.
then cue  skooma addict lolth and then figures change to dusky brown of the dark elves non ilthiri dark elves.

and cue Corellon LArethian.

as a deity she's gone and so is he, but archfey they could be.


on the otherhand.... looks at Sass Tann's ring of dread in Neverwinter.


the dark three.... the dead three
Bane Bhaal and MYrkul.
Bhaal is gone, Myrkul is in Skullport still kicking back in his crown of horns( really old man, go posses Cyric and while the realms will still hate you, they will toast you for murdering the god of murder whil he's sitting on his ultimate torliet.)
Bane is still here. Bane would know that when he told it to Sass TAnn that there might need to be more than just one trying to vie for power of godhood this way.
Assuming Vhaerun and Eilistraeee are archfey, they could manufacture the rods attuned to the dread ring. use it to steal their divinity back.



and walk off into the planes screaming Pull the leggs off Lolth!                      
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
Depending on the char both Vharean and Elistraee are good.  I felt Vharaen never was give his fair share of attention not like Eilastraee had in novels.  His sister and mother seem to overshadow him.

    I am honestly glad that Kianransalee is gone for awhile there no depth to the undead in this setting not like Whitewolf.   Not that I am really good at rp a vampire.  I am much better being a slayer.  



AS for Lolth I have yet to find a good rp as char but she does make good NPC priestesses. 


I wouldn't mind that Shevarash gets seduce by Shar and becomes evil.  All that hatred he has can poison the goodness and corrupts Shevarash makes him just as bad as the Drow.    Just having the same amount hatred as the drow is also not good for the elves. 
That works too.  The real question is...what about Vhaeraun?  We never did see the body there...





and the answer is....... not likely 


unless they have an image of his cold dead cadaver hanging upside down from a spiderweb.      



In the second book of The Lady Penitent Trilogy, it is mentioned during the Lolth/Eilistraee interludes that they look into the Astral Plane and see the dead body of Vhaeraun floating (it is common knowledge that the corpses of dead gods float in the Astral Plane, such as the one that the githyanki built their city on).

This saddens me, because I liked Vhaeraun.  But we DID have a body, and The Lady Penitent Trilogy encompasses several years.  He was dead and gone for YEARS before Eilistraee bit the big one.
I don't remember seeing the body, but I'll take your word for it.  That could be a ploy by the Masked Lady as well, showing her mother what she expected to see.

I never much cared for any of the "lesser" drow gods.  I'm definitely interested to see what comes out though, and I know a lot of people will be happy with a Vhaeraun and/or Eilistraee return.
Ooo I love speculation.


So let me Mr. Peabody this thing.. back in the day the Chaos hound was released. It was chewing on mask (The god). Mask went from an intermediate deity to a lesser diety to escape the hound. I'm thinking Eilastraee could have done the same thing to escape. From my view she only made one mistake, bellying up the the Sava board in the first place. thats her mothers game.

     So the new drow who are not drow, the brownies.. I am wondering whats up with them. At the point of the release of the ritual did all the drow on Faerun get to make a desision about it? If so i can imagin that Menzoberranzan went beserk. the evil drow would decend upon them like locust.


     I was putting together an adventure where Eilastraee was found in Sigil, Working in a bar with no memories. The advunturers would then go thru a series of encounters untill finally they would mine out the Godspark from a floating Diety, Prob Mystra, and that would then elevate her to an Archfey.  
(Note this is all opinion) I never liked the Idea of Midnight/Mystra, God/Goddess of Magic. I think Mystar shoudl stay gone and burried and let magic be a tool of the gods. I know that Devine and Arcane magic are different, but ot me they don't act different enough for it to be owrth while to even claim a difference.

I am currently running a campaign that involves some these gods we are speaking of, and Nightray is actually in it so I am reluctant to post details

I was dismayed when some fo the gods were killed because I belive they filled the right areas, the drow pantheon suffered the msot probably, because now (at face value) there is only one 'evil' goddess, and there is no alternatives. 
but was that his actuall cold rotting dead corpse though??? or was it all an illusion??
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
but was that his actuall cold rotting dead corpse though??? or was it all an illusion??


If you read The Lady Penitent Trilogy, then you would remember that there was at least one cleric of Vhaeraun who believed that he was inside Eilistraee, still working behind the scenes, manipulating her.  But that became sort of a moot point after she was killed.
which could still be a moot point as he could of been lead to believe that as well.
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
IMC, Eilistraee exists as the Maiden of the Moon archfey noted for hunting lycanthropes.
Cheers Imruphel aka Scrivener of Doom
Why on Earth did they think killing off all the Drow deities but Lolth (and arguably Ghaundaur) would be a good idea? That's exactly what the Drows didn't need. Less diversity.

4E Realms is just stupid and simplified. Thank you WotC for killing the Forgotten Realms.
Why on Earth did they think killing off all the Drow deities but Lolth (and arguably Ghaundaur) would be a good idea? That's exactly what the Drows didn't need. Less diversity.



Totally. Now the drow are only a bunch of indoctrinated, frustrated and sadistic people, tools of revenge for their spider deity. 

I mean, beside natural differences in characterial behaviour, if I took a random drow, in a random moment of the day and tried to guess his thoughts saying that he's plotting how to advance his ''social status'' at the expense of someone else, I'd probably be right. Their goal in life is only collecting power, dominating others and inflicting pain, just because, for the sake of it, and basically none of them can now think outside this box.

How the RotU trailer said, Lolth is almost breeding them and that's utterly boring if compared to the variety that there was when, beside Lolth, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun inspired them. Also, such diversity -and the whole story behind it- is what makes the FR drow characteristic of the setting and not anonymous dark elves.

Why on Earth did they think killing off all the Drow deities but Lolth (and arguably Ghaundaur) would be a good idea? That's exactly what the Drows didn't need. Less diversity.

4E Realms is just stupid and simplified. Thank you WotC for killing the Forgotten Realms.



And what is stopping you from ignoring anything that's happened to the Realms you don't like, again?
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Why on Earth did they think killing off all the Drow deities but Lolth (and arguably Ghaundaur) would be a good idea? That's exactly what the Drows didn't need. Less diversity.

4E Realms is just stupid and simplified. Thank you WotC for killing the Forgotten Realms.



And what is stopping you from ignoring anything that's happened to the Realms you don't like, again?



1st: It is obvious that in personal campaigns people ignore what they don't like, they don't need to be told to do that in order to understand.

2nd: Absence from canon of everything about the drow but Lolth means no further material about non spider worshiping drow, no further novels, nothing about them. That's a pretty valid reason to not just shrug at such kind of changes.

3rd: Players don't always have the chance to ignore canon. It depends on their DM.
Why on Earth did they think killing off all the Drow deities but Lolth (and arguably Ghaundaur) would be a good idea? That's exactly what the Drows didn't need. Less diversity.

4E Realms is just stupid and simplified. Thank you WotC for killing the Forgotten Realms.



And what is stopping you from ignoring anything that's happened to the Realms you don't like, again?



1st: It is obvious that in personal campaigns people ignore what they don't like, they don't need to be told to do that in order to understand.

2nd: Absence from canon of everything about the drow but Lolth means no further material about non spider worshiping drow, no further novels, nothing about them. That's a pretty valid reason to not just shrug at such kind of changes.

3rd: Players don't always have the chance to ignore canon. It depends on their DM.



I don't know...I play drow all the time, and I have exactly one Lolth-worshipper, which I only made as a joke for a one-shot we did...what was my main character's aunt and was hunting him down to sacrifice him.

As for my others, as most of my drow are renegades, I pick whichever god or goddess on the surface suits my whim.  Usually, I tend to go for Selune or Sehanine, since they killed Mystra and there is no true god or goddess of Magic to choose from.  Frankly, I don't think the drow /need/ a full pantheon to choose from, and they certainly don't need Eilistraee.

I don't know...I play drow all the time, and I have exactly one Lolth-worshipper, which I only made as a joke for a one-shot we did...what was my main character's aunt and was hunting him down to sacrifice him.

As for my others, as most of my drow are renegades, I pick whichever god or goddess on the surface suits my whim.  Usually, I tend to go for Selune or Sehanine, since they killed Mystra and there is no true god or goddess of Magic to choose from.  Frankly, I don't think the drow /need/ a full pantheon to choose from, and they certainly don't need Eilistraee.



I feel the exact opposite.

Eilistraee feels like a loving mother for the drow, but also a kind of 'freedom fighter'. She's a rebel who fights to grant the drow what she stands for (the main theme of her flavor): the freedom for every creature to choose one's own life, ideas and to express and fulfill oneself, free from the shackles of any kind of indoctrination/nonsensical dogmatic brainwashing, oppression or consuming hatred.

She -actively- tries to teach the drow life, to rebuild the bond among them (and regain the identity of the People) and to welcome and accept beings from all races without discriminations.  But the beauty of it is that in trying to free and redeem the drow, she -and her followers- forgo the violent and hard approach. Instead, they make them understand that a different, joyful kind of life is possible by offering them kindness, acceptance, compassion and help. By loving and giving the drow value for what they are (this is the contrary of the assumption that life is intrinsically worthless -and that it is dominating others which gives it sense- that is at the base of lolthite mentality) and encouraging free self-expression and fulfillment that Lolth denies them, the Dark Maiden undoes the web of lies that the Spider Queens spins around their heads, opening their minds to alternatives and offering them the key to live an enjoyable existence.

That is demonstrating with facts and open minded attitude that different ways of life are possible, thus helping the dark elves to find their own path to 'redemption' without slamming it in their faces like dogma, without intervening personally in their lives (a thing that Lolth brought to a whole new level), but inspiring understanding and personal choices.

Eilistraee offers the drow what they were (unjustly) denied in their descent and thus forgot, the possibility to revel in life (the dance, song, beauty parts of her portfolios) and live it freely, how and where they were meant to in first place.


Other deities (like the Seldarine) could be worshiped by renegade drow but, how would they know of them in first instance, giving their total isolation? How would they react seeing that clerics of said deities try to kill them on sight? How would they survive aided by none in an environment hostile to them? The Seldarine, the very same who provided the magic to doom the drow, do nothing to encourage them to escape Lolth, something that Eilistraee made her own goal of. So, no other deity can replace what she is for the dark elves.

That said, from a metagaming point of view, no deity is actually /needed/. Even Lolth could be replaced by random demons. Thing is, flavor is also very important, and Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (and the whole story behind all their struggle) make the race characteristic to the Realms and give depth to it. Depth that was, alas, removed in an ugly, meaningless and unfitting way.

The flavor is my biggest complain about Eilistraee.  She's just as big of a man hater as Lolth is.  Since Eilistraee didn't accept males as Priests, I'm stuck with ...vhaerun as my choice if I happen to like playing males, and nothing at all if I don't want to follow an evil god.
The flavor is my biggest complain about Eilistraee.  She's just as big of a man hater as Lolth is.  Since Eilistraee didn't accept males as Priests, I'm stuck with ...vhaerun as my choice if I happen to like playing males, and nothing at all if I don't want to follow an evil god.



I premise that I don't like that fact about her.

That said, I think that it was meant as a flavorful way to highlight her role as 'mother goddess' for the WHOLE drow race.

However Eilistraee is no man hater at all. The LP novels portray her that way, but the sourcebooks about her say that she accepts, loves and gives value to EVERY drow and follower from any race or gender. Having only female priestesses =/= hating them. Deities have the rights to choose their own agents, after all.

And this fact is what i hated most about the novels (along with the pantheon demise itself and the way it was done), deities acting out of character (like Vaheraun charging Eilistraee in her realm and her cutting him into little pieces, or her whole sacrifice thingy. That basically said to all the drow either you spontaneously redeem and follow me or I don't give two craps about you and I don't care for the ones who never heard of me, not yet born etc... This is the exact opposite of Eilistraee).

So we have two depictions of her and i don't see any reason to pick the worse. Of course if they mean to get her back (a thing which, of course, I'd like a lot) I hope they'll take the better and improve it by extending priesthood to males as well.