Double weapons and Dual implement spellcaster

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Hi there.

Can a sorcerer use each side of his staff, as separate implements for dual implement spellcaster?

Or a bard a double weapon?(Asuming it can use it as implement)


thanks! 
If the sorcerer took the multiclass staff feat that lets them treat a staff as a double weapon, then yes. If the bard enchanted a double sword with songblade, that'd work too. Some have claimed in the past that it doesn't work because of the ends sharing enchantments, but the FAQ allows hexblades to use DIS, so I don't see why double weapons are any different.

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Using a double weapon as an implement is different from using two weapons-as-implements because a double weapon is one implement and two weapons are two implements.

The general rules for implements say you don't 'wield' implements, you 'hold' them.  It doesn't say it  matters how you hold them, they're still only a single item.  The 'using weapons as implements' rules don't add any additional requirements about how many hands you need to hold a weapon-as-implement, so the general rule is still in play.

i.e.  You can hold a double weapon-as-implement in one hand, (or one in each hand to benefit from dual implement spellcaster); but holding it in two hands gets you no additional benefits.

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

Using a double weapon as an implement is different from using two weapons-as-implements because a double weapon is one implement and two weapons are two implements.

And you treat a double weapon as two weapons so by your logic 'two weapons are two implements'. Wink

The general rules for implements say you don't 'wield' implements, you 'hold' them.  It doesn't say it  matters how you hold them, they're still only a single item.  The 'using weapons as implements' rules don't add any additional requirements about how many hands you need to hold a weapon-as-implement, so the general rule is still in play.

Read off hand under the weapon section. rules compendium pg#270. 'An offhand weapon is light enough that the attacker can hold it and attack effectively with it while also holding a weapon a weapon in his main hand. Are you saying that you don't wield an offhand weapon, just hold it? Here is a case when hold = weild and I don't see anywhere that says that you don't wield an implement. However...

Page #133 rules compendium/heroes of the fallen land pg#70 under implement keyword. 'The implement keyword identifies a power that can be used with an implement: such as a wand, that certain creatures can wield to channel power. 


Page #341 heroes of the fallen land, 'Each class description in Chapter 4 indicates which implements (if any) that class is allowed to use when delivering powers. For example, a wizard can wield an orb. a staff or a wand.'

Add this together and the double weapon user is weilding two weapons. Each weapon is an implement with an enchantment, even though it's shared. The FAQ states that shared enchantments stack for DIS. 
Using a double weapon as an implement is different from using two weapons-as-implements because a double weapon is one implement and two weapons are two implements.

And you treat a double weapon as two weapons so by your logic 'two weapons are two implements'. Wink

The general rules for implements say you don't 'wield' implements, you 'hold' them.  It doesn't say it  matters how you hold them, they're still only a single item.  The 'using weapons as implements' rules don't add any additional requirements about how many hands you need to hold a weapon-as-implement, so the general rule is still in play.

Read off hand under the weapon section. rules compendium pg#270. 'An offhand weapon is light enough that the attacker can hold it and attack effectively with it while also holding a weapon a weapon in his main hand. Are you saying that you don't wield an offhand weapon, just hold it? Here is a case when hold = weild and I don't see anywhere that says that you don't wield an implement. However...

Page #133 rules compendium/heroes of the fallen land pg#70 under implement keyword. 'The implement keyword identifies a power that can be used with an implement: such as a wand, that certain creatures can wield to channel power. 


Page #341 heroes of the fallen land, 'Each class description in Chapter 4 indicates which implements (if any) that class is allowed to use when delivering powers. For example, a wizard can wield an orb. a staff or a wand.'

Add this together and the double weapon user is weilding two weapons. Each weapon is an implement with an enchantment, even though it's shared. The FAQ states that shared enchantments stack for DIS. 


Actually, I'm sorry I even brought up the wield/hold thing -- neither one is particularly well defined in the rules.

The FAQ you're referencing states that a Hexblade with an implement in one hand and a pact blade in the other hand qualifies for DIS if he can use that pact blade as an implement.  That allows him to double up the enhancement bonus because the pact blade inherets its bonuses from the other implement.  They're still two separate items.

The biggest hangup I have is the rule that you ignore a weapon's nonmagical properties when you use it as an implement.   "How you wield/hold it as a weapon" would fall under that, wouldn't it?

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

The biggest hangup I have is the rule that you ignore a weapon's nonmagical properties when you use it as an implement.   "How you wield/hold it as a weapon" would fall under that, wouldn't it?

Yes it says a 'weapon's nonmagical properties'. weapon properties are defined in the compendium, Mordenkainen's and the hero books. Just look up weapons or check Weapon Properties in the index. You'll see a list of them like offhand and small. You'll note that "How you wield/hold it as a weapon" isn't on that list.