Party optimization question

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I'm playing with a party of people who are experienced with older versions of D&D (from 2nd through to 3.5), but all of us are relatively new to 4th edition. 

Our DM recently gave the party a chance to rework all of our characters, mainly because the party was terribly balanced (we all rolled characters separately, which was really dumb).  I was playing an arcanist eladrin wizard, and was focusing on illusion powers.  I'm hoping that you guys can give me some advice on what to play as with the following party:

Chaladin MC Cleric

Con-based artificer

Invoker (focus will reportedly be on damaging powers)

Warlock/Rogue hybrid

Arena master fighter (dual-weilding)

Illusion-focused wizard (me)

Should I stick with my wizard, or is there a class better suited to this group? 

Thanks in advance!

Defender/leader

Leader

Controller

Striker

Defender



The party seems a bit low on damage.  While you could, of course, play anything you like, it seems like the party could really use another striker more than another controller.
Personally, I like my heavy damage melee striker types (which apparently this group is missing), but this party isn't bad at all.

You didn't include what level this would be at, and I saw something about rolling characters. Could it be the average damage output is low because you as a group rolled up low stats, and/or you chose feats that do not in any way benefit you in combat ?

I think reworking everyones character is pretty drastic, is the DM himself experienced in 4e? Maybe all the DM to do is give everyone a free expertise feat ?

By the way, wizards are amazing ranged strikers, can do a lot of damage or set up team monster to receive some from your team mates; that wizard would also appear to be the only true ranged character, I wouldn't change that. Two defenders seems overkill, as does the MC Cleric.
Two defenders seems overkill, as does the MC Cleric.

I don't agree.  For a typical 6-person play group, I think the ideal mix is 2 defenders, 2 strikers, 1 leader, and 1 controller, with a strong secondary leader presence and a strong secondary control presence (for a highly optimized group--which this does not sound like--a very different mix is in order).

You have 2 defenders, 1 striker, 1 leader, and 1 controller.  You have a strong secondary leader presence between the Invoker and the Chaladin (even without the m/c), and a strong secondary controller presence between the Artificer and the hybrid Warlock.  So, I would recommend a damage-focused striker as the best fit to the group.

The Artificer, Invoker, and Rogue|Warlock all could be long ranged, short ranged, melee, or a mix.  If only one (or none) have long range capability, a ranged striker like a bow Ranger works best.  If 2 or three have long range capability, you'd want a melee striker.  Any of Avenger, Barbarian, Ranger, Slayer, or Scout could work well, depending on build.

t~
> Warlock/Rogue hybrid

This is the only part that raises a bit of a red flag because Striker/Striker hybrids don't really work very well. He would be better off to pick and stick with one of those classes, or if he really likes the skirmishing-with-magic theme, go with the Hexblade warlock. (Yes, I know the Hexblade receives a lot of flak around here, but it'll better serve his play style and it works well enough for a non-theory-op game it'll work well enough.)

The only other suggestion I'd make is that the paladin would probably be better off taking some other MC that provides some thematic and mechanical diversity rather than "more of the same".

Otherwise, the low-ish damage may not be an issue if the party's powers and features synergize well and/or you pay attention to group tactics. The DM can also help a bit by choosing monsters that are better suited to your abilities.

"If we get into situation X, or need capability Y, do we have someone who can cover it?" - if you can answer yes to that regarding common adventuring situations then you're probably in the clear as long as you aren't trying to tackle Lair Assault or 4thcore style material!
> Warlock/Rogue hybrid This is the only part that raises a bit of a red flag because Striker/Striker hybrids don't really work very well.

They work well enough.  Eldrich strike -> low slash will let you get curse and sneak attack in 1 turn.

The main issue is splitting your resources between boosting curse / sneak attack, impliment/weapon, ranged/melee, ect...

Also, Cunning Rogue|warlock/assassin = perma-stealth.  Which can make up for anything.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

In a strong tactical group maybe. But that Warlock/rogue is doing 4 less damage with sneak for the privilege of getting 1d6 curse while not attacking reflex for a square of slide. And if he's spending resources on perma-hide, it gets even worse DPR-wise and overall party survival - encouraging not very experienced DMs to focus fire on an inexperienced group is a bad idea. If he was a solid striker, I'd go with your wizard. Because he won't be, I'd go with a melee striker - if you look at my hybrid handbook builds thread, you might consider trying my Monk|Sentinel build - it is a very solid controlling striker.
Thanks for all of the replies! 

I agree that the party is far from optimized.  It was, however, way worse before the DM said we could rebuild our classes (and he strongly encouraged us to do so).  The Chaladin was playing a Battlemind, and the Ranger (who dropped out of the group because of a work conflict) was stubbornly sticking to this weird melee/ranged build that didn't work.  The person currently playing an Invoker was killed in our last session (he was playing a Shaman).  We got decimated in one of our first encounters, and the DM realized that the party was a mess.  That said, many of the players have chosen classes because they like the playstyle, or for RP purposes, so I doubt that I'll be able to encourage them to change anything. 

This leaves me to try to rebalance the party as best I can, which is why I really appreciate the feedback. 

You didn't include what level this would be at, and I saw something about rolling characters. Could it be the average damage output is low because you as a group rolled up low stats, and/or you chose feats that do not in any way benefit you in combat ?



I'm using the term "rolling characters" loosely - we're all using the character builder, and the point buy system.  I still call it "rolling a character" because of all of the time I spent playing 2nd and 3.5. 

I'll spend some time playing around on the character builder today - I guess it speaks to my relative inexperience that I thought I should play another leader rather than a striker after our Shaman died.  I do admit that we're low on damage, though.
and the Ranger (who dropped out of the group because of a work conflict) was stubbornly sticking to this weird melee/ranged build that didn't work.

Hm... a decent str/dex balanced Ranger can be very effective at range with a Longbow or Drow Long Knife, and in melee with one or two heavy blades. Preferably two, because there are so many Ranger powers designed to fit both the ranged guy and the two-melee-weapon guy. Starting with Twin Strike.

You do want to get both strength and dexterity above 16 at level 1, which will require a racial bonus to at least one of them.

I'm using the term "rolling characters" loosely - we're all using the character builder, and the point buy system.

Good for you guys. Point buy is the way to go.

I'll spend some time playing around on the character builder today - I guess it speaks to my relative inexperience that I thought I should play another leader rather than a striker after our Shaman died.  I do admit that we're low on damage, though.

The only thing I'd look for in a leader that you don't obviously have is enabling, such as a Tactical Warlord. Other than that, I'd go with a good melee striker (who possibly is also decent at range).

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
Two defenders seems overkill, as does the MC Cleric.

I don't agree.  For a typical 6-person play group, I think the ideal mix is 2 defenders, 2 strikers, 1 leader, and 1 controller

Disagree strongly. My ideal party is 5 strikers with high defenses and one healer also with high defenses.

Two defenders seems overkill, as does the MC Cleric.

I don't agree.  For a typical 6-person play group, I think the ideal mix is 2 defenders, 2 strikers, 1 leader, and 1 controller

Disagree strongly. My ideal party is 5 strikers with high defenses and one healer also with high defenses.


My ideal party contains at least one of each role, but they all do striker damage. Cool
Two defenders seems overkill, as does the MC Cleric.

I don't agree.  For a typical 6-person play group, I think the ideal mix is 2 defenders, 2 strikers, 1 leader, and 1 controller

Disagree strongly. My ideal party is 5 strikers with high defenses and one healer also with high defenses.


My ideal party contains at least one of each role, but they all do striker damage.

Yeah, that's a better way of putting it.
My ideal party is 5 strikers with high defenses and one healer also with high defenses.

If the healer is a Taclord, he counts as a striker. (The class's striker bonus damage feature: I hit you with my sword, and also with my Barbarian.)

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
Two defenders seems overkill, as does the MC Cleric.

I don't agree.  For a typical 6-person play group, I think the ideal mix is 2 defenders, 2 strikers, 1 leader, and 1 controller

Disagree strongly. My ideal party is 5 strikers with high defenses and one healer also with high defenses.



Unless heavy optimization and specific tactics are assumed, that's a good way to die really quickly IME.
Two defenders seems overkill, as does the MC Cleric.

I don't agree.  For a typical 6-person play group, I think the ideal mix is 2 defenders, 2 strikers, 1 leader, and 1 controller

Disagree strongly. My ideal party is 5 strikers with high defenses and one healer also with high defenses.



Unless heavy optimization and specific tactics are assumed, that's a good way to die really quickly IME.

Exactly.  Your average playgroup benefits greatly from the additional resources that Defenders bring, the recovery ability of a Leader, and the flexibility of a Controller.  This mix both compensates for subpar tactical play and offers superior learning opportunities for increasing tactical ability.  I did say that I'd recommend a different mix for optimized play.

t~
I'm loathsome to double-up on Defenders, though less so if one of them is an Essentials Defender.  Fighting over who marks who kind of gets on people's nerves.
I'm loathsome to double-up on Defenders, though less so if one of them is an Essentials Defender.  Fighting over who marks who kind of gets on people's nerves.




if they are fighting over it and not using it to punish their enemies then they are not on the the same team and will most likely get some one killed but if they decide to be on the same team wow is it good
if they are fighting over it and not using it to punish their enemies then they are not on the the same team and will most likely get some one killed but if they decide to be on the same team wow is it good


Well, with two Defenders against one solo, unless the other Defender has some sort of synergy with the second, the two aren't going to mesh well; one will attract the attention of, and punish, the living daylights out of the solo, while the other sits there and whacks it with (usually) nowhere close to Striker-level damage.

Which is where the Berserker comes in. :p 
if they are fighting over it and not using it to punish their enemies then they are not on the the same team and will most likely get some one killed but if they decide to be on the same team wow is it good


Well, with two Defenders against one solo, unless the other Defender has some sort of synergy with the second, the two aren't going to mesh well; one will attract the attention of, and punish, the living daylights out of the solo, while the other sits there and whacks it with (usually) nowhere close to Striker-level damage.

Which is where the Berserker comes in. :p 




What you have stated is very true but quite unlikely to produce a problem as most Solo monsters are not very good. So optimal team tactics are just not needed.

Plus i think that for actual play the best party of six is 2 leaders and one of each other role.
Plus i think that for actual play the best party of six is 2 leaders and one of each other role.

That's only five people. :D

Though I do see your point.  A double-Leader, double-Striker, Controller, Defender team would probably be my best bet.  Have either the second Leader or second Striker (maybe even be both) be good with defenses, and have the second Leader concentrate more on buffing and enabling than the first.

In a moderately optimized party, your best balanced party is Defender, Striker|Defender, Striker, Leader, Striker|Leader, Controller.  A  hybrid Striker can readily be built to within spitting distance of a full striker, you only need a second Defender when the first Defender is in serious trouble, and you don't need a full Leader to help an enabling Leader cover saves+emergency healing.  In a highly optimized party, you're starting to look like ShakaUVM or Grondag's suggestion.

t~
The new barb fits that well.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

You guys are aware we are discussing opinion here, right ?

The original poster was asking if, considering his group is apparently doing low damage, he should exchange his wizard for a different class (and we all quickly moved to leader or defender), and also that he couldn't change any of the other classes chosen.
Given those parameters, I think we can all agree any halfway decent wizard will bring more difficulties for team monster than most defenders or leaders.

Now, I personally think the first one to change in that group mentioned, to improve the damage output and survivability of the group, should be the paladin mc cleric ( to be replaced by a ranger/barbarian/avenger/...), but that is a personal opinion, and probably not in any way helpful to the OP.
Given those parameters, I think we can all agree any halfway decent wizard will bring more difficulties for team monster than most defenders or leaders.



People are discussing the why things might work the way they would.

Wizard isn't the right choice for the group given that there's already a high dose of control and a poor-quality striker likely focused on making himself worse than he is already.

Player: "Haha, no one can see the striker. What you going to do about it DM???"
DM: "Darn, and I so wanted to take out that guy doing most of the damage. Wait a minute, that's the Invoker. Well, the guy targeting the Rogue can't see him, so he'll go after the Invoker instead."
(rolls dice, totals damage)
Invoker Player glares angrily at Warlock|Rogue player and says, "I drop. Again..."

A Striker who can dish out some damage is likely the better choice. 
What about a genasi wizard with a frost staff, and elemental empowerment?  In theory that would give him pretty decent control options, and sorc-lite damage, with all spells, yes?
Unless the striker goes "fool, you shouldn't of moved. Oppertunity attack".

Even better if he slide/prones or something.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Blaster wizard would work.

Not a perfect fit, but works well enough.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I think the most obvious answer to a wizard wanting to make a new character adding some damage is "make a sorcerer".
That said, an archer Ranger could be another good choice for ranged damage, and a Slayer could become a ranged/melee striker too.



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Nature's Allies
- Carwyn Sihderfein: Half-Elf (Tuathan) Blackguard of Domination / Binder of Gloom --> Sheet, Fluff, Blogs (1, 2)

I agree that a blaster wizard would work.  Actually, if you just need pure numerical damage on the table, a well-optimized wizard is hard to beat.  Unlike a normal striker, they can't bring down a single target quickly, but they often soften up everything so that the rest of the (un-optimized) party can win the fight.
I think the most obvious answer to a wizard wanting to make a new character adding some damage is "make a sorcerer".
That said, an archer Ranger could be another good choice for ranged damage, and a Slayer could become a ranged/melee striker too.





This is why I suggested a genasi blaster wizard with elemental empowerment and a frost staff.  Elemental empowerment, grants the wizard his strength bonus to his elemental damge spells, which is very close to the sorcerer's striker mechanic.  A frost staff, means every spell /should/ trigger elemental empowerment, provided there is a damage roll, giving the wizard very close to striker level DPR, while maintaining his control.

Provided I am understanding how it works correctly.  I'm not as big of an optimizer as most of the people here, so of course, I could be very wrong.
A well built Genasi blaster Wizard would be a good fit for the party (and yes, the combo with the Frost Staff works, although you'd probably want to switch to thunder in paragon).  However, I'd be worried about it overshadowing the rest of the group, and doing so in an easy-to-see fashion.  Unfortunately, with that kind of character it's not easy to back off the optimization a little bit while still filling the party's need for damage, so if intra-group balance is a concern, I think a straight Striker is better. It's easier to tweak one so that it's at a comparable balance level while still bringing enough single-target damage to the table.

t~
Unless the striker goes "fool, you shouldn't of moved. Oppertunity attack". Even better if he slide/prones or something.



Nothing prevents a monster from shifting away from the character - and if you're talking about exploiting a particular utility 10, it really won't take long in most games for the DM to base most encounters around defeating hidden or OAs in some way, asking the player to not take the utility at all, and/or rule zeroing it out of existance depending on their level of experience.
Unless the striker goes "fool, you shouldn't of moved. Oppertunity attack". Even better if he slide/prones or something.



Nothing prevents a monster from shifting away from the character - and if you're talking about exploiting a particular utility 10, it really won't take long in most games for the DM to base most encounters around defeating hidden or OAs in some way, asking the player to not take the utility at all, and/or rule zeroing it out of existance depending on their level of experience.

There's a few ways to follow someone who shifts (mark of finding, blurred step*).  Which work great.
As well as pixies, who can cover all spaces.   Something anyone can do against larger creatures, or with another source of flight.
If you (or an ally) prone/immobillize/halo of tethering, shifing is out, unless he waste his entire turn.
Also there's simple positioning.  Stand between you and the invoker.  Yes, he might walk into you and cancle your hidden, but then you're just sharing your part of the damage (and wasting his move).
And worst case, you simply stop hiding when the invoker get's bloodied, and take your turn in the sun.

It takes a lot of resources to pull off, which reduces your damage significantly.  Which can be more then made up for, if you're you have enough tactical knowlage and good teamwork (if everyone rushes their own enemy, you get no OA's).

so yea... not recommended for noobs.  Advanced tactic only.

*(why i got a prefernce for stealth defenders, since they have built in shift control.)

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Unless the striker goes "fool, you shouldn't of moved. Oppertunity attack". Even better if he slide/prones or something.



Nothing prevents a monster from shifting away from the character - and if you're talking about exploiting a particular utility 10, it really won't take long in most games for the DM to base most encounters around defeating hidden or OAs in some way, asking the player to not take the utility at all, and/or rule zeroing it out of existance depending on their level of experience.

the first thing we need to know for the op is

What does your party needs, if we cannot change the other classes

so it' little use talking about the Paladin MC cleric, since the OP already posted that most other players picked there classes based on coolnessfactor.

what the OP needs is help for him to pick a class that can help his party survive, and he has a preference toward controllerish stuff ( i assume this since he wanted to play an illusionist)

so to answer this question, we need to know if there is a balance between melee and ranged ( IMO more important then the different functions in a group)

we have a
Paladin ( melee, Defender, heavy secondary leader)
invoker ( ranged, controller, heavy secondary striker according to the OP)
warlock/rogue ( again could have melee and ranged powers, striker, secondary probably light controll)
Fighter ( melee, defender, secondary probably striker or controller)
conbased artificer ( here i assume a mix between melee and ranged considering most Conbased powers are weapon melee+ranged, leader with some light controller)


so i see 2 melee defenders, 1 ranged controller ,  all the rest have options of ranged or melee

this means IMO that a ranged class should be taken if the warlock/rogue and artificer will focus on melee


My preferance would go to a class that focusses ranged striking, but has some melee options so you can bodyguard the invoker ( ass noted by previous posters, if the bad guys decide to go after him he risks being all alone 10 squares away from the rest of the party)
this leaves you all ranged strikers ass option ( ranger, warlock, sorcerer, any essentials striker) or a damagefocused wizard or a Seeker.

assuming you favor controlling powers over raw damage i suggest you look for a seeker, or a blaster wizard ( with some controlling powers)


On the other hand if both the warlock/rogue and the artificer are heavily ranged, i advice you to take a melee striker ( avenger, barbarian, ranger, monk, some essential classes)


On the other hand, if the Invoker is going to focus heavily on damage, it might be good to have someone to focus on battlefieldcontrol which would be done decently by anyone with sliding powers ( wizards, anyone with mark of storm and lightning or thunder powers)

Is it possible to give some more information on the focus of the warlock/rogue or the artificer as far as ranged/melee goes ?














if they are fighting over it and not using it to punish their enemies then they are not on the the same team and will most likely get some one killed but if they decide to be on the same team wow is it good


Well, with two Defenders against one solo, unless the other Defender has some sort of synergy with the second, the two aren't going to mesh well; one will attract the attention of, and punish, the living daylights out of the solo, while the other sits there and whacks it with (usually) nowhere close to Striker-level damage.

Which is where the Berserker comes in. :p 



If every fight is against a true solo, the game is lame. Against the occasional solo two defenders is pretty sweet as they can take turns and work mark shenanigans rather than one being expected to take all the punishment.
Also, many solo's get multiple turns at different init counts; delay one defender so that one marks it, it goes, first defender punishes it, second defender marks it, it goes again, second defender punishes it, rinse and repeat.

Plus many solos actually have lots of helpers that the second defender can deal with.